Micro CoGen.

Ade,

I guess that the 2" diameter Lister exhaust would entrain a significant amount of flue draught if you mounted it into a section of 6" stove pipe.

Personally, I'd use something like a flue pipe T-piece and have the Lister exhaust coming in from the bottom, and the flue gases coming in from the side arm.  Not sure if this is practical on your fluepipe arrangement. Just so long as the Lister exhaust is pointing straight up the flue pipe.

You might find that you get too much draught - and have to fit a flue damper below the ejector T.  Either way, it gets rid of the Lister exhaust, and the flue pipe will dull the note of the Lister, should noise be an issue where you are.


Ken

AdeV,

Just saw your video - only a year late!

Perhaps you could use the exhaust of the Lister as an ejector to create draft in your workshop stove - like they did on old steam trains.

That would create morre pull and counter the blow back problem with the smoke - plus the Lister exhaust goes neatly out the same flue.



Ken

Here are the photos of the gensets I saw on an earlier trip to China (Dec 2006).  

I was staying in an industrial town not far from Shenzhen.  Everywhere you went were specialist hardware shops and machine stockists - I was in heaven.

Rows of "Changfa"/ST  lined up in the street.  The 12kW ST version was selling for about $500.  (3960 RMB  was $505 in December 2006).

Note the triple V-belt drive on the 12kW unit

Inside there were some larger 4 cylinder gensets  - up to 56kW.  These were priced at $3750 and  $5500 respectively.



Ken

For historical interest, - here's a few quotes from Lovson from 2005, before they really got into the US market.

How times and prices have changed.   Raw material and energy costs have certainly risen since 2005. Labour costs are also higher.  

The first is a standard 6/1.  Nearest port would be Duluth - but thats a long sail from the Atlantic!

The last two quotes are for the fairly non-standard 10/1.  The problem with the larger singles is that they are such a deviation away from the original Lister specification, some parts non-standard, and a little dangerous swinging a 24" flywheel at 1000 rpm to get 10hp.  There were even some 12/1 and 16/1 engines being offered - best to stay well clear of these deviant 'oids.

The first quote is in British Pounds.  In 2005 there was between 1.88 and 1.91 US$ to the pound.


Ken

QuoteThank you for your E-mail of 29th October,2005 and the interest shown in our Company and product.

We are glad to offer:

VERTICAL TYPE LISTER  WATER COOLED (Tapper Roller Bearing)  DIESEL OIL
ENGINES.


SR.   MODEL     H.P. / cyl   RPM     BORE & STROKE     US$ PER NO.
NO                                     MM                                 (COST OF 1 ENGINE)
                                                                                    FOB INDIAN PORT

1      SL-6          6/1CYL       650        114.3 X 139.7           432.00

OPTIONAL ACCESSORIES:

RADIATOR                  $ 180.00
ELECTRIC START       $  280.00

The shipping Cost upto Northfield, Minnesota port is as under:

LISTER TYPE 6/1
US$432.00 -FOB MUMBAI (COST OF 1 ENGINE)
US$150.00 -HANDLING & SHIPPING CHARGES UPTO Northfield Minnesota
US$  40.00 - FUMIGATION CHARGES(AS PER NEW LAW,ALL WOODEN CASES TO BE
                   TREATED)
------------
US$622.00 C&F Northfield,Minnesota port
========

QuoteThis has reference to your E-mail of 23rd August,2005.


We are glad to offer:


SR.   MODEL    H.P. / cyl    RPM     BORE & STROKE     GBP PER NO.
NO                                     MM FOB INDIAN PORT


1       SLC-10      10             1000            120 X 139.7 360.00

THE SHIPPING COST TO FELEXSTOWE WILL BE AS UNDER::

GBP 360.00  -  FOB MUMBAI
GBP   70.00  -   HANDLING & SHIPPING CHARGES UPTO FELEXSTOWE
--------------
GBP 430.00  C&F FELEXSTOWE
=========


ALL OTHER TERMS REMAIN UNCHANGE.



Best Regards
Joanna Bhat

LOVSON EXPORTS LTD.,
98, Bajaj Bhavan,
Nariman Point,
Mumbai 400 021
INDIA

Tel: 91-22-22024071 / 22021918
Fax: 91-22-56360830 / 22045488

E-mail  : joanna@lovson.com
          www.lovson.com

Quote> This has reference to your E-mail of 27th October,2005.
>
> We are glad to offer:
>
> *VERTICAL TYPE LISTER  WATER COOLED (Tapper Roller Bearing)  DIESEL OIL
> ENGINES.
> *
>
> SR.   MODEL     H.P. / cyl     RPM     BORE & STROKE       US$ PER NO.
> NO
> MM                                  (COST OF 1 ENGINE)
>
> FOB INDIAN PORT
>
> 1      SLC-10       10/1CYL       1000       120 X 139.7
> 495.00
>
> *OPTIONAL ACCESSORIES:
> *
> RADIATOR                   $ 180.00
> ELECTRIC START       $  280.00
>
> THE TOTAL COST UPTO DUBLIN (IRELAND) VIA FELIXSTOWE
>
>  LISTER TYPE SLC-10
>  US$ 495.00  -  FOB MUMBAI (COST OF 1 ENGINE)
>  US$  100.00  -   HANDLING & SHIPPING CHARGES UPTO DUBLIN
>   US$.  40.00  -  FUMIGATION CHARGE (AS PER NEW LAW)
> ------------------
>  US$.635.00  - C&F DUBLIN
>  ========

100 years ago, or so, electrical power generation was in its infancy.

The reciprocating steam engine, fuelled with coal, and its resulting poor efficiency, was slowly being replaced by large gas engines, burning manufactured coal gas.  The use of gas engines, resulted in a generation efficiency four times that of steam, and a reduction in the labour costs.

Mond Gas, a process devised by notable industrial chemist Ludwig Mond, was produced from the lowest quality coal, and also produced a useful by-product of ammonium sulphate which was used as fertiliser.  

This well illustrated, scanned book, dating from 1903, describes the process, the uses of Mond gas in gas engines and the efficiency of the generating plant.  Full of facts and figures relating to the machinery of that era.

http://ia340926.us.archive.org/3/items/mondgas00woodrich/mondgas00woodrich.pdf

Gas engines were coupled together to produce large generating plants (for that day) - sometimes 20,000hp (15MW).

It was only the improvements to the steam turbine around the time of WW1, that displaced gas engines as the preferred choice for large scale electricity generation.

For anyone considering a micro-cogeneration plant, the history of Mond Gas makes interesting reading.  Our forefathers were faced with the same basic economic choices when it came to generating power, - and it is interesting to note, that neither the efficiency of the gas engine, nor the electrical generator has improved much in the last 100 years.


Ken

Comment moved to new thread and edited:

Bob, list

Load balancing is important with home scale CHP, as it is with any larger system, and I thus found as many ways possible to utilise the "spare" electricity. Running the high wattage appliances sequentially was one way to ensure the generator was kept loaded.

My house in the UK needs a constant 6kW of heat to keep it warm during the winter months, and as much as 8kW during the coldest weather. But my electricity usage is really quite low, at just 7.5kWh typically on a normal day.  Getting the right balance between heat and power is a little tricky, and using excess electricity for resistance heating , I consider a necessary step to achieve a reasonable balance.

As I normally work from home, they is a high daytime occupancy - so my work room needs to be kept at a comfortable tempertaure.

I describe my system as "semi off-grid", as I still have grid power and gas heating for times that it was not practical to run the Lister. I have subsequently installed a woodfired stove with boiler, for additional heating in the winter evenings, which has offset a considerable quantity of natural gas.

The system started with a large permanent magnet dc generator, charging a battery bank directly at 125V dc.  I have a 5kW sine inverter from which I installed four separate circuits to feed the high wattage appliances.  Unfortunately the PM generator failed through overheating, and I had to rethink and subsequently use a 3kW ST alternator and large rectifier to charge the battery bank.

I found that with my Lister set up, with typically 2.5kWe from the alternator, that I would get about 6kW of useful recoverable waste heat, which I circulate around the house central heating radiators. My house needs 6kW of heat to keep it at a comfortable core temperature so the CHP was run for its heat output.  But as I need just 7.5kWh of electricity on average for my daily activities, I had the problem of excess electricity. So I installed a 3kW electric immersion water heater, and a 2kW electric storage heater in order to trade electrical power for additional heat. 

On a typical day I would start the Lister at around 8am, just before boiling the kettle (2.2kW) for the first cup of tea.

I would then run either the dishwasher, or washing machine - again about 2.5kW max load.  By lunchtime, I would have surplus power, which I would then direct to a 2kW electric storage heater, water heater or the dc battery charger, so as to keep a reasonable load on for the afternoon session, which I would continue to around 6pm.

Thus by the end of the afternoon, I had a warm work room, with stored heat and a tank of hot water for the evening, plus the battery bank topped up.

On a typical 2.5kW mean load, the Lister would use about 15 litres of veg oil during the 10 hour run.  With the move to wood gasification, I intend to keep a similar 10 hour batch run time from a 55 gallon drum of woodchips.

The system is continually evolving, as I find new bits of salvaged equipment, and as time permits.  I intend a 700 litre (185 US gal) thermal store (holds about 60kWh thermal), made from 3 salvaged water tanks - one of which is a gas fired water heater and 200 litre tank combined.  This will be converted to run on woodgas, or as a final condensing exhaust gas heat exchanger for the Lister.







Ken