Micro CoGen.

Billswan,

I just dropped in for a minute. I usually don't have much to say and I will be up front saying I have "no" experience with anything but diesel fuel in the engines. With that said, I do know a lot about cam timing, turbo boost pressures, peak cylinder pressures, fuel pump injection timing and etc..

I definitely would not run 25 degrees on the 16/1, like I said other fuels could be different. On my 14/1, I now run it at 850 RPM and the pump timing is set at 16 degrees BTDC and I run it at a maximum of 4,800 watts. It could pull 6,000 watts but the power pulses you can feel is not good for the engine, 80% load maximum.

The injection pumps on the 12/1, 14/1 and 16/1 are the bigger 034 models and the 6/1, 8/1 and 10/1 is the smaller 032 models.

I myself like retarded timing. What I mean is the most lazy timing "I can get away with and still have proper burn rates". To achieve this you need an almost constant load, to keep cylinder pressures and temperatures elevated to promote proper burn.

There is a saying with us building diesel engines, "The earlier the injection timing is set, the sooner the next engine rebuild". This shouldn't be taken out of context, just run as much timing as what is "needed" and not more for your fuel.

I can time engines by ear and I know someone is going to say that's not how to do it. But if you played with camshafts and pump timing as much as I did, you could do it as well.

You can hear it and you can feel it, with the proper timing, at each RPM zone. Set the engine speed and a constant load (maybe a DC load or heating element?) can help you really dial the timing in, for you.

The problem with the 16/1 is that is has a large displacement and a greater mechanical advantage long stroke crankshaft (like placing a "longer" pry bar on something) the internal components are still mainly 6/1 parts. This increased pressure (more downward force)  from the increased displacement and greater leverage applied from the crankshaft ,can do a lot of damage, if not operated at optimum tune. That is why I'm so conservative with my 14/1's power output.

This is just my input and with burning other fuels might be miss informative.  I just don't want you to tear apart your piston, rod and mains due to your engine compressing a burning fuel to early BTDC. Remember, the best burn rates and set timing, are when the peak cylinder pressures are achieved at 5 degrees ATDC. This would provide the highest efficiency.

Good luck, 
Diesel Guy

Mobile Bob,

Your funny, I think everyone here has it, or we would of not have worked so hard on perfecting things and could of just went to Home Depot and purchaced a so called "Generator" there and call it a day. 

What ever I have, it drives my wife nuts. What you want a new dress? I"mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, how about his nice alternator pulley I had custom made? How about that instead? I don't know, I can't figure her out.

Diesel Guy

Flywheel,

Funny you mention the oil lube splasher. Mine is shape a little different, instead of a steel wire, it is a small flat piece of steel.

My unit will be running at manly at 360 RPM, so I'm using two oil splashers one in front of the other and fanning them out a little, one on each side, slightly off the centerline of the bottom, where the one oil splasher would be. This makes a wider edge against the oil, to scoop more oil and fling it around each side of the engines internals.

When using two splashers, it enables full adjustability, from narrow (the same as one splasher, one directly in front of the other) to wide (two splashers, just the edges overlap and makes a wider scoop).

Now I can fine tune the splash oil lubrication, part of the system and find just the right amount of splash, to properly lubricate the internals, but without overlubing and causing oil slobber and increased oil consumption.

Diesel Guy

I don't just have way too many alternator heads, I have too many engines and projects as well. I'm just not smart enough to know when to quit. I'm sure nobody else has that problem here, now do they.

Diesel Guy

I have a few 6.5 KW PMA - 3,600 RPM models, and some 6.5 KW, 8 KW and 20 KW PMA - 1,800 RPM models and the 6.5 KW - 3,600 RPM models has vents on the bottom and the 6.5 KW, 8 KW and 20 KW models have vents on the lower, back side. All are vented and none are sealed like Utterpowers units.

Diesel Guy

 Flywheel,

Thanks for the kind words about my engine.

"I realise you would like to have yours completed soon but you are short on time and winter is coming, the snow will be blowing, the iron will be cold on the fingers etc.  I can just come over and pick it up, just think - no more shop clutter, lots of extra room.  It may only be a 8 hour drive or so for me, my Witte will have company."

We must be on the same wave length, I was going to ask you the same thing!

Witte's are just big, ugly and heavy, so call me first, if you want to get rid of it.

Diesel Guy
         

I like these PMA's. Good quility.

http://stores.ebay.com/Central-Georgia-Generator/_i.html?_fsub=823419012

Diesel Guy

Flywheel,

My engine is a 1951 CD Diesel Electric model, with extra heavy flywheels, I rebuilt it at another site on the property but had to bring it inside, not finished due to Winter coming, snow Saturday. Now I will finish the rebuild it indoors.

Here are a few pics.

Notice how much larger the Witte flywheel is compared to the 23.5" heavy flywheeled 14/1.

Each Witte flywheel, weighs over three times the mass of the 14/1 flywheel.

Here is some side views of the camshaft before I sent it out.

Also, I took this picture of the piston and connecting rod this past Summer.

Diesel Guy

Here is a few more pics, I still have a ways to go before finished, now that I have the camshaft back, I can finish installing the other flywheel and then start putting it together.

Diesel Guy

Flywheel,

I been at a standstill until my camshaft was finished. Here is before and after pictures. I'm busy all week on other projects, but will start again Sunday night.





Stock camshaft



Modified camshaft
Note the extra narrower cam lobe?



The modified camshaft features, a calculated high lift, ultra short duration, minimum valve overlap and a delayed exhaust valve opening, timing. By delaying the opening of the exhaust valve, increases the "effective power stoke" and burn time. This configuration enhances  the thermodynamic efficiency at extreme low RPM, by allowing the expanding gasses to push "longer" on the piston before exhaust valve opening, on "every" power stroke. When a camshaft opens the exhaust valve early (high speed capability, grind), it releases a small amount of usable heat energy, right out the exhaust valve, at low speeds, therefore lowers the Brake Mean Effective Pressure. This modified cam grind also, lowers the heat loading, to the cylinder head, under full load. The downside of this grind (in camshafts there is always have a give and take) the engine loses it's stock high speed capability (800+ RPM) and runs out of steam anything over 500 RPM. But when operating below that figure, the engine will produce much higher Brake Mean Effective Pressure, at peak torque, which in turn, is capable of producing much tighter AC frequency regulation, than the stock camshaft, in the 360 RPM and 440 RPM modes. Due to, it is more difficult to slow an engine down with a load when it's operating on it's peak torque curve. The fuel consumption rate will be minimal, with this engine, when completed.

Diesel Guy

Flywheel,

It is great to see there is someone else who joins the Witte engine team. That's a very durable engine you have there. Those bearings need replacing, and you might have to pour your own bearings, because there are no factory bearings left in the country, that I know of.

All the babbitting supplies you need are here at Hit & Miss. We have Babbitt, Damtite (damming compound), flux, and even a pamphlet on how to pour babbitt.
Click here http://www.hitnmiss.com/24.html#babbitt to go to our on-line catalog and check out our babbitting supplies as well as our new and reproduction parts.

As always, if you don't see what you are looking for give us a call, we may have other items that are not listed.

Hit & Miss Enterprises
Orwell, Ohio
(440)272-5335

I'm just taking my time with my engine, I done an exstensive overhaul and even calculated a projected flat torque curve, to be emphasized between 350 RPM to 450 RPM then reground the cam to my specs to maximize lowend torque. I changed my design a few times. Now I'm operating my engine at 360 RPM and 440 RPM only. I done so many upgrades, totally new oiling system, new fuel system, etc. as well as replacing every single component that was subjected to wear.

When I'm done it will be as "new" throughout and "Specially Designed" for low speed operation only, by not just turning down the governor and calling it low speed. I'll mention all my upgrades when I post my you tube video of the fully operating powerplant.

Good luck with you project and if you need help with anything let me know,
Diesel Guy

Lowgear,

"Does anyone know of a book like "Electrical Generation For The Complete Idiot" I might read."

You don't sound like a dummy to me by any means, your just a person looking for more and more  information (like the rest of us) and that is what this and other forums do best.

Lowgear, I know you own a Witte. You mention generator knowledge, the reasoning behind me using my Witte/inverter hybrid configuration is that the engine can operate an almost constant low load condition keeping the battery charged and the AC from the permanent magnet alternator will power my heating loads. I don't like running heating loads on the battery bank.

First I chose a permanent magnet alternator, I don't want to play with my generator, once set, set it and forget it. The output voltage is proportional to the shaft speed. The more steady the input speed the more consistent the voltage and frequency regulation will be. I wanted the largest bearings possible on my alternator, so that is why I oversized this much. There would be minimum side loading from the belt to apply the proper amount of belt tension to avoid belt chirp.

Belt chirping is because the flywheels are too light/small or pump timing is to advanced or the pulleys are spaced close together or heavily overloaded. I am using a 138" serpentine belt so to provide the greatest distance between pulleys and enable a "cushioning" action (slight stretch) allowing the belt to maintain traction on the pulley and not chirp with reduced belt tension.

To maintain regulation at low engine speeds requires an acceptable amount of torque. The more over squared the engine is, the greater the torque capability at the cost of lower  HP capability. A high torque engine resist speed variations better than a low torque engine per equal load input.


This is where the Witte shines. It is a true old style "over squared" engine design with a 5" bore and 8" stroke.  It has a .625 Bore/Stroke ratio. My 14/1 Listeroid is only slightly over squared and has a 5.12" bore and a 5.76" stroke. It has a .89 Bore/Stroke ratio. A 6/1 Lister/Listeroid has a .818 Bore/Stroke ratio.

With greater low speed torque capability from the increased mechanical advantage from the crankshaft and never going over 75% of the maximum engine capability, enables the Witte to use a "mechanical governor" and still provide engine speed control similar to an electronic governor controlled engine. 

The disadvantage of the old style "over squared" engine design is that the power strokes are very intense compared to a shorter stroke engine and this is nullified by those massive flywheels.

The hybrid AC/DC inverters/batter bank is a "vital" part of my design. It allows me to "retard" the pump timing between 2 - 3 degrees, due to the constant load from the 28 volt alternator to eliminate carbon build up. The retarded timing drastically increases engine life more than many realize. Especially at low speeds, reducing the sudden shock load to the piston, rod and mains.

My hybrid configuration operates similar to a Series Hybrid propulsion system, which the engine stays at a constant speed and provides a small AC output and a small DC output and the inverters and battery bank carries the heavy loads. Permitting the engine to be tuned for a constant low steady output, years if necessary that other configurations can't claim. The continuous output could be as high as 8,400 watts when needed at times and will only consume about 3 gallons in a 24 hour period at 438 RPM.

When a conventional engine/alternator design is required to have the capability to produce "clean" (not over loaded blowing black smoke) AC at 8,400 watts constant, it would consume maybe twice that fuel. So this design is not for everyone but I designed it solely to meet my exact needs and in this advanced hybrid mode, my 1951 Witte is the best prime mover for this application.

I built my system with only three set requirements, Durability - Durability - Durability at the lowest fuel rate possible.

Diesel Guy

I'm putting the finishing touches on my Witte power plant. I just wanted to give an update on my project.

I just purchased a 20 KW Permanent Magnet alternator for it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/20KW-Rare-Earth-Permanent-Magnet-Generator-/160464573436?pt=BI_Generators


I purchased such a large alternator head and I will only be using a small fraction of the capability. It has a massive 48 mm shaft and will operate many hours without maintenance. It seems fitting to install such a heavy duty electrical system (340 lbs.) on back of the Witte, which is built like a tank.

I will be running my dual pulley ratio and flywheel weight on the alternator. It adds about 128 lbs. of flywheel mass and spins at 1,800 RPM. The engine speed at the set pulley ratios are, 620 RPM from the 11.1" and 438 RPM from the 7.8".  Belt chirping will not be an issue due to the massive flywheels on the Witte to control the power strokes and I will not be running peak capability of the engine (which is the cause of the pulsing). Therefore, I will have clean AC output.

I am installing two heavy duty Military 28 volt alternators with Electromagnetic Pulse Protection devises installed. I will have multiple ways to operates my power plant due to having two pulley ratios and dual alternators.

These are the exact alternators I have and mine are brand new as well:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HUMVEE-100-AMP-ALTERNATOR-28-VOLT-P-N-10947517-1-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c0e78fb91QQitemZ120501894033QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


First: I could operate it on the 20 KW Permanent Magnet alternator alone and put out 4,800 clean AC watts with minimum light flicker.

Second: I could operate it on high output  "Hybrid Mode" . Which is run the 20 KW Permanent Magnet alternator set at 3,600 watts and will be set to operate the 28 volt alternator at 40 amps, very conservative to keep cool , maximum durability.

Third: I could operate it on the 20 KW Permanent Magnet alternator alone at 438 RPM and put out 2,400 clean AC watts with minimum light flicker.

Fourth: My favorite setting, I could operate it on low output   24 - 7 - 365 "Hybrid Mode" . Which is run the 20 KW Permanent Magnet alternator set at 1,200 watts for selected electrical systems and will be set to operate the 28 volt alternator at 30 amps, very conservative to keep cool , maximum durability needed. 2.4 HP required to drive the AC system and 2.4 HP required to drive the DC system. 4.8 HP required. The Witte will produce about 6.5 HP (conservative) which would equate to 75% load at maximum AC and DC loads and 37% at just DC loads.

I have a large 1,000 amp/hr. Surrete battery bank and two operational Industrial 3,600 watt continuous and 12,000 watt peak,  inverters with two back up inverters on standby. A battery bank does not like to be charged continuously, but I am putting in such a small amount of amps, like a water wheel that my battery bank still cycles but the cycles are much shallower due to the continuous input of small amperage , 3% of the total battery capacity.

On the low output   24 - 7 - 365 "Hybrid Mode" I would have 8,400 watt AC continuous (within reason) and peak 25,000 watts (never reached) power available from an engine lopping at 438 RPM.

I also have written in the past, I installed my custom oil filtration and  oil replenishing system so the engine can go unintended if needed for 3 months at a time 24 - 7 - 365 without a single shutdown. Shut down requirement is 4 times a year.

This plan is the reasoning behind me choosing the Witte, there is not another engine that can replicate it in fuel consumption/durability/required Hp/lack of maintenance, as my set criteria and is a perfect (in my book) prime mover and this is the outcome. When finished I will send a video from you tube.

Diesel Guy

Also, when looking at the Arrow "single" flywheel engine, my Witte engine has "two" roughly the same size flywheels on it, one smooth and the other grooved for the belts like a Start - O - Matic. Each one of the 2 flywheels have the same thickness and approx. mass of the Arrow, that's why my Diesel Electric Lighting Plant model is much heavier than the Arrow WD, which is an industrial engine and used as an electric model as well. The Witte Diesel Electric Lighting Plant model is designed for electric power only and can produce much cleaner AC power due to the increase in stored kinetic energy potential. 

Diesel Guy

bschwartz,

I first thought my Diesel Electric Lighting Plant model weighed about 2,400 lbs. but I later spoke to people who worked on then all the time and they said closer to 2,700 lbs. or about 3 times my 14/1. This one should weigh slightly over 2,300 lbs. or more than  3 times your 6/1. They are dead weight, I move my listeroid engines around rather easily before mounting them to their frame. Not a Witte. They are well built, to say the least.

Here is the "single" flywheel model from Arrow that is an exact copy of the Witte CD engine, just different name:

http://web.archive.org/web/20011022003405/arrowengine.com/generator_midset.htm

Diesel Guy