Micro CoGen.

I've been reseaching doing on the cheap too!
Swage then solder is what I  intend to do.
I've soldered for over forty years, done a ton of wire ends, propane will work fine. Then a nice clean heat shrink cover.
Fine strand wire will carry more amps also.

Quote from: mike90045 on September 09, 2011, 08:18:28 AM
My plumber has sold me on the eternal hybrid water heater.
http://eternalwaterheater.com/products.html
it's a tankless, with a 2 gallon tank to prevent what the trade calls "cold stacking" when a low flow situation is sensed and you get a blast of cold water. It uses a short burst of flame to keep warm in freezing weather instead of an electric heater.

So, I'll wait and see how it works out when it's installed.

I will be preheating with solar and firebox coil.

  More units like like this one out there all the time.
It's hard to find in specs but this unit has a buffer tank too, a big plus.
Here is one that has a simalar set up and does radiant floor heat for under 2 grand!
http://www.navienamerica.com/rearning/tank.aspx?skin=tank

Hi check out this link.
In the catalog is about  4 pages of fill in the blank work sheet.
You start with loads, location, battery bank or grid, then calculates panels needed.
Bad thing is you can't print anything, but gives you all the info needed also great for checking all product info.
http://aeesolar.com/products

The model I had problems with is T-K1S no longer made.

Not sure why they wouldn't take preheated water? How hot we talking.
I feed a TK JR with 90 degree return water, units burner modulates down to what the output setting.
Also that install is ok with Takagi and warranty.
With pre-heated water you will not get the full BTU capacity of the unit, not an issue with you because all you care is output temp.

I've put a few Takagis in, have one in my shop.
Put one in a new house job, went bad in a year almost to the day, changed it out, that one went out same time frame.
I fought with Takagi over the warranty, took 6 months to get a replacement, then found out they changed that model.
So they must have had issues.
Have a TK Jr running a small radiant heat job I did maybe 8 years ago?
Now they are part of AO Smith.

Quote from: WStayton on July 26, 2011, 08:20:59 AM
WGB

   Thanx for the link - but I crawled around all over that link and I can't find anything that says that the product you indicated was for open systems.

  They also show lots of barrier PEX and pumps and assorted hardware, so what makes you think that that particular chemical/treatment is for an "OPEN" system?

  It would seem to me that using barrier PEX on an open system would be sorta like nail-polish on a mule - It looks good, but does absolutely nothing!  <grin>

  Or, did I miss something IMPORTANT here - AGAIN? <smile>

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

All that company sells is open steel outdoor wood boilers.
Central Boiler is also an open system, they also sell same type of water treatment.
All open system OWB companies that I know of sells water treatment.
Water treatment is also important in close systems too, but is a huge issue with open.

Open system boiler treatment:
http://hawkenenergy.com/store/individual-parts/water-treatment-certified.html

This is just first one I grabbed, many more out there!

Well if you use an FDA pex for all then you risk all of your investment in corrosion loss to the boiler/engine/iron....It'll be cheaper to install, but in the long run it''ll cost you some IRON.

If you use all barrier pex, including for domestic water, then you'll pay abuo a third again as much for the domestic supply, and it might not be FDA appoved, so you have factor in the loss of life.




Not sure who stated this, years ago I use to get dual rated pex. Was about the price as pex for domestic plumbing, non-barrier.
I can't remember if it was B or C type, anyway it's still in many jobs no problems, used crimp rings.
Company was bought out by Wirsbo and was soon off the market!
Sure wouldn't want a product like that out there! LOL.
I got it from Northern Wholesale in Minnesota.

Quote from: Lloyd on July 21, 2011, 10:20:02 PM

Quote from: WStayton on July 21, 2011, 09:24:59 PM
WGB:

  The boiler will  be the only steel/iron in the system, and I wrestled with how to keep it from rusting away - filling the system with antifreeze is prohibitively expensive since 50:50 would require something like 625 gallons of antifreeze!!!  Sorta out of my budget bracket!  I was thinking to use something like hot water heater zincs as sacrificail anodes to keep the boiler from rusting away before my very eyes!!!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

Wayne,

Either be succinct or figger out a way to break it down in to manageable set of issues... Other wise I think you can't see the trees for the forest.

The issue with PEX and IRON...is, pex's ability to absorb oxygen, which is what cause the iron to rust from the inside out..

Sacrificail anodes will do nothing to keep the boiler from rusting out...they stop ecltrolysis...NOT RUST...they are 2 different things...both just happen to eat metal.

Barrier Pex(also called AlumiPex) is the only PEX(Aqua PEX won't work) that can be used in a black iron system, or any system that contains IRON.

Lloyd

This is getting complicated.
Most open systems with steel or wood boilers mantain water treatment that controls rust.
AlumiPex is Barrier pex, but there are 3 other types of oxy barrier pipe Pex A,B,and,C.
This is just me, but if I'm going to all the work of putting a hot water heat system in, I spend a little more and use oxy barrier pipe no matter what. If you do that you can change anything in the rest of the system later and not have to worry about it!
If you want I could try and help on the phone.
I do have all the Wirsbo, Viega, and other heat loss heat gain software.

Quote from: mobile_bob on July 21, 2011, 08:05:49 PM
at the risk of alienating folks here is my take on desulfators

they are a bunch of hype! and i wouldn't add anything like edta to any battery i cared about.

if you are working with old batteries that aren't responding to proper charging then use whatever you like, however
if you have a significant investment in your batteries charge them as the manufacture recommends, equalize as needed
and realize that batteries have a finite lifespan.

once they get down to about 80% capacity they are about at the end of life in most cases, as they go to hell in a non linear
fashion.

i realize there is lots of anecdotal evidence that edta and desulfators work, however there is precious little true scientific evidence
to support the use of either with a good battery.

charge them regularly and fully, keep them watered if flooded type, equalize them as needed, keep a log on every cell and list
the specific gravity of each cell.  doing so will give you a full life from the battery.

fwiw
bob g

I agree for the most part.
And I'm only doing individual batteries.
I'm doing batteries that are junk, I've got 3 batteries back to taking a good load test.
One of the batteries started under 5 volts.
The other 2 would not get above 12.3 volts before using the new charger.
Now both are at 100%, both take a couple load tests and still stay in the good battery zone.
So for the electric fence, my potable Cangfa clone generator starter, mowers, and tractors I'm a happy camper!

Quote from: Tom on July 20, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
What kind of de-sulphator are you using? I'm a big fan of them and have resurrected a few batteries my self.

The charger has a de-sulfate mode it goes into as needed.
I think it is a pulse / equalize thing.
Also I have some chemical from Battery Chem I've not tried yet.

The web site Tom sent you has tons of good information.
Caveat is I know a guy that ordered from them, they sent him pipe, fittings, and rings from different systems. Or he BS'ed me and ordered the wrong parts!
Color doesn't tell you what kind of pex it is, the ASTM numbers on the pipe tell what fittings and crimp to use.
The fittings usually have different number of barb rings for different systems, you may get a hint what you need from that.
Also remember if you buy of line think about shipping, pex rolls cost, they are big.
You might be just as well off buying local.
Menards around the Midwest has great price on pipe as a come on, but break it off on the fittings, I've noticed that on line too.
You didn't say if you were going all non-ferrous?
If it's a non-pressure system, are you using water treatment?
Also some pumps won't last in non-pressure systems they will cavitate at the inlet of the volute, make sure you get pumps that can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation

I ended up getting a Schumacher SC10030 smart charger for now.
It seems to do pretty well,I de-sulfated and resurrected one battery already!
I'm looking for an inverter charge too for the batteries.
Still looking for the Holy Grail.

Quote from: Tom on July 19, 2011, 06:10:53 PM
I did our whole house with AquaPEX, including the radiant floors with it too. The fittings can be one of 2 kinds Wirsbo is an oversized fitting where an expander is used to stretch the pex tubing + a collar. The fitting is inserted and the assembly shrinks down onto the fitting. The others use copper bands that crimped over the tube to fasten it to the fitting. The expander tools are expensive $1k ish for the battery powered expander. I did the majority of the house with a expander tool borrowed from a friend. After the friend moved I purchased the band crimper version for around $125.00 which works well except in cramped locations.

There are heck of a lot more than 2.
I have all the Wirsbo / Uponor tools including the electric over hydraulic. I started with this brand in the 70s.
Also I have four more crimp tools for other systems, make sure you know what you are getting.
The are many different fitting / crimp systems, and the warranty and code approvals are only for proper combinations.
I've been to numerous seminars on pex some as an inspector.
I think we are going to have failures and end up with a polybutylene type debacle.
There are some law suits already.
http://www.kitecsettlement.com/?gclid=COLMu-KzkKoCFcPs7QodjHRG0Q
Viega has 3 or 4 fitting, pipe, tool combination just in their line of products.
This use to be a simple easy to use excellent piping system, but like everything these days it has become a night mare.
http://www.viega.net/xchg/en-us/hs.xsl/780.htm
Sorry to get on the soap box!

I do it all the time.
As the pipe heats up it will expand like a can of worms, can be a esthetic issue, also makes noise if rubbing house framing.
Look at your specs, pressure rating goes down as temp goes up!
Most radiant pex heat systems run 140F or less, baseboard will run up to 180-190F.
And don't forget to use oxy barrier pex or you have to keep everything in the system non-ferrous.