Micro CoGen.

Quote from: akghound on December 18, 2011, 07:47:00 AM
Greetings Pat.
I too live off grid. I would really like to know how you are converting from single phase of an invertor to 3 phase. I am currently running a ST head off of a Kubota tractor. Sort of a long story of being broke and having unfortunate breakdowns that got me there. Right now I'm simply using 120vac but as you know can go to 220 single phase with the gen head.
Ken Gardner

Awesome Ken,

I think off gridders are the some of the last rugged individualists left in America. Folks who don't want to be coddled or held by the hand, and have no problem putting out a little extra effort to make things work.

Money is always tight, and one thing many people don't realize is when you live off grid in a remote area, you need backup systems. Backup generators and equipment. I follow close to a 3 backup rule. This is why I run alternators for generators as I can have backups ready to roll on a moment's notice, and afford to do so. I care for my batteries based on the manufacturers suggestions. And yes I do it manually for the most part, which requires attention and monitoring, unless the suns strong and in that case, my house system float charging is controlled by the Trace. If someone would not be able to do that, I suggest a charge controller like these guys suggest or inverter based programmable charging.

I don't convert single phase power from an inverter to 3 phase as a whole. What I do is convert my machines to run on single phase, all accept in case I want to run an existing 3 phase AC motor, then I use a VFD (variable frequency drive).

Most all commercial metal shop industry standard CNC machines (computer numerical control), are 3phase simply because all industrial shops are wired for 3 phase. It's standard. Thing is the only thing that's 3 phase on most of these machines is the the main spindle drive motor, and the coolant pumps. That's it!

All other systems- the computer controller, the servo drive amps are all 110VAC, as most all servo axes drives are DC motors.

So- what you do is swap out the coolant pump for a 110VAC pump, and address the main spindle motor issue, and then you can take advantage of a single phase 110VAC inverter and use it's pure amperage to run your machines.

Spindle drive motors are either AC or DC. If you have a DC motor, you're already off to the races, because most all DC motors are powered by a servo drive amp that is 110VAC. No conversion needed, as with my Hardinge CHNC. It has a large Porter Peerless DC spindle motor. There's 3phase connections on the huge control panel input of this machine, and it ultimately is all routed 110VAC to everything but the coolant pump.

All you have to do is have a 110VAC inverter large enough to handle the amp draw, and a battery bank large enough, coupled with enough amps coming in to keep ahead. It's exactly like water being poured from a pitcher- to keep it at a certain level, as much needs to at least be coming in as going out.

This machine running with my most power intensive part turning programs draws no more than 40 amps, and that's only for short period peaks.  With my Outback inverter that's rated somewhere around 60 amps and 12 L16's (old worn L16's I may add) allows a 9hp Honda engine, turning a Delco alt to run CNC shop machines. And do it with 2 gallons per day on average.

That's not efficient enough for some guys here I gather, but it's plenty for me, for now. And I think for less than $10 in fuel, it's till cheaper than the cost of industrial 3phase commercial shop power.  Not bad for an off gridder.

If you wish Ken, I will go into the other 3 phase drive motor conversion options for peak efficiency that I have done and use here (that means the lowest power consumption and costs, and replacement/ maintenance costs), for lathes, mills, manual or CNC  that allow you to run from a single phase 110VAC inverter system, and yes I dare say a Napa alternator that cost $40, and lasts years. 3 years to be exact on the very same one I use for my shop with the 9hp Honda. 7 years is my longest running delco with this type of purpose. My first one.

I've got to get the wood stove fired up in the shop

Pat-

That's astounding!

Gee Lloyd, you're so clairvoyant that you know how I run 3 phase machines to work on single phase, even to go as far to figure I don't realize what efficiency I must be loosing.

You must have ESP right?

This is why I have a little trouble talking with the Experts like yourself.

Now had you asked once, politely, how I convert these machines to run I would be happy to tell you.  But you instead instigate a debate, based on your vast knowledge.

I don't look at that as being kind or particularly friendly. That went over well on the playground in elementary school, and evidently is alive and well here.

You have a neat little world here in this forum. Stick with it.

I made offers in posts above and will stick with that.

Bob- that email was sent on 10-4-11 from  West Coast Engineering.

Cheers.

-Yawn- ...

Are most of you guys here this brilliant? ...

I've got to get to work.

Oh, by the way...

I see I didn't send you a PM. I sent an email to you at an address that starts with- "notblueeyes"

Well Bob you make some good points. Pretty much changed the argument all together for lack of a better term, and the argument towards me here has flip flopped more than a politician. That's why I don't have the energy for a forum like this.

By all means, run a controller. Heck- if I had the extra funds and the time to play with one I would love to.

Can you run a shop with CNC machines, and a household bigger than a UnaBomber Shack with an auto alt? You bet. No matter what I do here, it all comes down to 1kW of PV's and the auto alt generating power.  How you wish to run it is your business.

I run our household, computers, printers, LCD flat screen, Hughes Sat, dishwasher, clothes washer, lights, chest freezer, ceiling fans and every modern appliance accept the BIG hogs that you don't run off grid, plus machines all day in the shop for about 3 gallons of fuel per day on average.  No battery damage is happening here. Does everything single thing run at once?  No.

We pick up 3- 6 gallon cans of regular gas every week. That's it.  A lot of money for the price of fuel these days, but for a home and shop producing an income, pretty darn doable for me and as my income and business increases, I will work to improve my systems.  You got to start somewhere.

Next- woodgasification on a practical level including practical fuel production. I'm currently planning and designing systems and a method of running this property without dino fuel when need be.

Bob... BOB, come on man this not rocket science or the task of building your 200 mpg carb..

Thing is I don't have to prove anything, and I don't have the energy to try to convince people on a forum. I will go out of my way to help someone who has an open mind, and really wants to do something like I'm doing.  "Doing" is the descriptive word here.

It just surprises me to no end, when I read a guy's comment on pulling 95 amps from a 6.5hp and an alternator. Being the fact that I have done that for what- 12 years now, and running one almost daily has shown that you cannot put that kind of load on a little 6.5, without running it the dirt.

20-30 amps yes for about 5 hours on a gallon of fuel. 40 amps definitely but your load is starting to  effect fuel consumption. 50 amps, yes- but now you're putting a grunt load on it. 60 on up, forget it. You need a bigger engine.

So that is what brought me here in the first place.

But running my shop is not the "Space Shuttle" task you are envisioning. It is really quite simple.

Yes I glance over at my inverter while running some CNC programs as I know when I'm pushing it. I glance at it, so I know when to increase the throttle on my 9hp Honda running a Delco alt, to simply keep the amps coming in, ahead of the load being pulled.  That's it.

Are there limitations? Well of course. I have 3 industry standard CNC machines here, and with the old battery bank of 12- L16's ( purchased in 1999) with an Outback inverter, and just the 9hp/alt feeding them, I can't run the machines at one time.

Almost did yesterday. I have 2 Hardinge CNC lathes, and was trying to run 2- low power consuming programs, 2 different tasks one for each machine, and it just almost did it.  

Now part of that problem is the second machine has a big 5hp (3phase) motor which is overkill for my small die parts. It's pulling way more amps just to turn, and I will be swapping that out with a 3hp motor.

But for a one man shop, I can run parts all day with one CNC machine.

But wait... There's more!

On the house system, I have another much newer bank of 12-L16's with a trace SW4000 inverter. I have a line ran to the shop set up to safely pull 35amps @ 120VAC.  With that I run my manual machines- a Bridgeport mill, a Hardinge Chucker lathe, a Logan 11x28" lathe, air compressor, and all bench grinders etc.  These machines run independent of the my other inverter system, which is strictly for the CNC machines.

So anyone knows in the machining business, even with CNC there are what is known as "Second Op" machines. Normally manual machines that are used to finish CNC parts, like debur and edge, tap a hole, etc. While I run parts on CNC, I do second ops all day. I can run 2 of those (manual) machines at once, as I have them modified to run on single phase 120v, and safely pull under my 35 amp circuit.

If I need to run all day, and the house trace system is running low, I simply fire up the little 6.5 (knockoff)/Napa Delco alt. I also have a panel array on that system, and a 16hp (knockoff)/Napa Delco alt, that I pretty much use for backup and fast charging if I need to.  I have a the 16hp set for 55 amps, the 6.5 for 10- 35 amps when I want a light charge, and the shop CNC 9hp (real Honda)/Delco running by throttle and led lights on the Outback inverter. I don't have an amp meter or Trimetric wired in yet.

So it may sound complicated, but I guess you would just have to see me run to understand how it works. I have currently 2 successful products that I ship world wide. As I fully program my CNC machines, and get all of them up to their full production capability, I will need more power.  That's the next step. Can it be done?  You bet.  But for now I squeak out a living, and build a brand name and market with a loyal client following.

If someone genuinely cares to learn how to run 3phase machines this way off grid with an auto alt, I'll be glad to show you. If it's just a point of proving a theory to the experts here, then forget it. I will not waste my time.

Chow Mien,

Pat

Quote from: mobile_bob on October 04, 2011, 07:15:42 PM
Pat...

when someone comes forward claiming he can run his whole house, his complete three phase machine shop, all on a chinese clone engine
driving a chinese clone delco 10dn,  and does so for years without problems, well i am left to think a couple of things

1. the guy lives in a one room cabin, and
2. he runs his machines a few minutes per day, or
3. he is full of crap?

there are three rules of sales and i think it applies here as well

you can have what you want
you can have it when you want it
you can get it for cheap

you can have any two but not all three?

bob g

Since this old thread has been dredged up again, I thought I would add a comment-

I took some of my valuable time to PM Bob with a somewhat lengthy note and give him some details on (my) background and mfg business, and some specifics of how I and why I run my shop here at home off grid, run machines all day, 6 days a week including specifics for running 3 phase machines off the lowly poor auto alternator.

I find it interesting that nary a peep of a response from him, or a comment here.

Quote from: Ronmar on October 04, 2011, 07:40:31 PM

Really?  There is NO way a 6.5HP will handle 95A@24V?  Have you ever tried it?

4.  If your 6.5HP engine is turning at an RPM where it can make it's rated 6.5HP, it should be capable of sustaining either 24V@95A or 12V@190A...

Best of luck to you, save your pennies for fuel and that new battery bank...

I am most definitely dun!

And dear Ronmar, please buy yourself a 6hp engine and an alt for a few bucks, then put a load on the field running at the required rpm to develop 6hp, to try and pull 95 amps.  It will be money very well spent and a fine educational lesson for you.

I will bow back out now.  Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

No problems guys. I understand loyalty amongst friends.

I'm going to move on from your forum here, but I wish leave you with a few thoughts.

I tried to explain from the beginning of this thread what I do with these DC auto alts, for a different perspective to consider.  I mentioned the size of my systems and the limitations of my DC chargers, and that my Trace Inverter handles float charges -with my PV Panels.  And that Backwoods Solar recommends 31volts at one hour for equalization for systems such as mine. Which served me well for my first expensive battery bank starting 13 years ago.

The whole reason I posted this thread was because of statements like this:

Quote from: Ronmar on October 04, 2011, 07:58:18 AMYou could get your entire 95A out of the 6.5 engine by installing both alternators on it, and still have room to spare... . 

I've read that notion few times on the net here and there, and on this forum with not a peep out of the 3 experts that I've been told are 5 times over my head.

You may think I'm ignorant, have no math skills, and I'm here to cause trouble, but that statement above speaks volumes of actual experience building generators. It ain't gonna work worth squat in the real world, and yes IMO.

So I've read some very reasonable responses- Thank you Bob, But I've been jumped on with some very unreasonable statements, so I tried to further clarify my position respectfully, and then I'm told "my charger can't possibly put out that kind of power", moving on to "that kind of power is damaging my battery bank etc." Moving on to "I change my story."

There it is. I came here to share my experiences, and see if I could perfect my DC Systems, with something better.

Instead of saying, "you can't possibly be doing that", why not say, "If he is, how is he doing it?  How is that possible?"

Instead of saying, "What you're doing is wrong! Based on all of my knowledge", why not say, "well if he did that- how is it that his results turned out differently?"

Keep an open mind guys, and learn.  That's what I do and it's served me well all of my life.

Pat

My last comment Lloydd...

If you think the L16 data I've written is damaging, I suggest you call the guys at Backwoods and question there instructions, which is what I've followed and has served me well for years, and them as well with their own systems. I imagine or they would not suggest it if it caused the damage you claim!

I do not manufacture their charger, and mine is modified to what they sell.

I'm done here so you can rest.

Well I have not changed one point I've made incase you care to read. Right from the start Lloyd.

So you and I can just disagree.

5 times over my head?  I think your head is five times to big to accept the fact someone may have something to show you that differs from your "Vast Knowledge".

Perfect example- you stated my 31volts equalizing for one hour causes plate corrosion on L16's.  If you're a dealer I suggest you go read.

I could prove anything I write and show my results, but I see it's pointless here. I've got a shop to run and a living to make.

We must be measuring amps differently. You guys must be talking about taking an amp reading off the alt, which would be 95 amps in 12 volts, which would read from my 24 volt wired system 190 amps. 95 amps here would put that little 6.5 in the dirt.

There's no way a 6.5hp engine will handle 2 alternators, unless the load was extremely light on both alts- some where around 15-20 amps for a 24v system. The 16hp yes, and you would be puttin' a good grunt load on it.

Something I should have mentioned yesterday- L16 batteries are NOT like your car or deep cycle marine batteries. They like to be boiled, and equalized fairly often. That's the key to their longevity. They are not prone to "plate corrosion" like what you may be used to.

When I speak of amps on this thread I stated it's referenced off of my 24V solar system via Trimetric.  

Example:

I have 1kw of solar panels on the house. 10 SR100 seimens that are rated a little over 5 amps each.  If my system was wired for 12V, the Trimetric (wired off the shunt) would show about 50 amps full sun.
Since my I have a 24V system, my Trimetric reads 25 amps full sun. Actually peak off of them is 29 amps.

SO when I say my DC alt chargers are putting out 95 amps by running the 6.5hp and the 16hp together, (24V system reference) on my Trimetric meter- if my battery bank were wired in 12 volts it would read 190 amps.  If my battery bank and inverter was wired for 48 volts, it would read 47.5 amps.

Hence when I say my 6.5hp DC alt charger is putting out 40 amps, you may be thinking 40 amps in 12V. No- it would be 80 amps in 12V wired solar system.

I don't know if I'm being clear here, but that is what I mean when I reference a 24V wired system- 24V inverter and batt bank.

Humm yes, I went back and see some edits have been made that I directly addressed.

In any event, I'm not trying to sell you. I don't need your business, I was merely pointing out the way I do it, then after comments stating it could not be done, or if done it must produce poor results,  I had given specifics. I can give more specifics. My results are here are certainly not that poor as written.

It still has not been shown to me as to why as yet. The alts I use perform better than you guys claim, but to each his own. No matter.

If any one here cares to know more about my setup, just ask. It can be operated safely and I think my first set of L16's that were in the house for 9 years, and now have been in the shop for over 3 (as a pass through amp storage only) and have had nothing else but my DC charger and float charging from my solar panels and Trace SW4024 speak for themselves.  No damage done there. You have to have basic common sense to run a system like this. Plug it into anything, pull start and walk away with no understanding is not suggested.

AND if you care to learn more about care of L16 batteries from folks who have used them for home business and sales for as long as they've been made, contact the folks at backwoods solar in Idaho.  That's who I've done business with all these years and their advise has been dead on.  Good informative wesbite as well.

If anyone cares to learn how I run my machine shop with industrial machines using an off grid system, I again am happy to answer questions, give examples, pictures, yadda, yadda.

I'm not selling anything system related. Just sharing knowledge that works here, and I use.

So like I mentioned before, Bob and Lloyyd, I still am interested in the best components that will save me money in fuels.  Engine? Alt? Controllers?

Would like to hear what the best is for my Listers as well.

-edit- or if you prefer, tell me to "go read" with a link. On specifics, component models, etc.

With all due respect Lloyd/Bob, that sounds like you have much experience. But you are telling me I can't do what I do with my setup, and then just say "Go Read" when I state L16's in my system should be equalized at 31 volts for an hour, and by running the 6.5 Honda today at 96% 29.9v I'm damaging the plates.

You guys can't have it both ways.

First you tell me my "Little Trickle" charger can't possibly do that much charging, then you say I'm damaging my plates.

Which is it?

OK let address that BOB,

I'm being told to go read (and I did), now you guys give me the courtesy of accurately reading what I post.

I achieve 95 amps by running 2 dc gen setups on my house system.  One -6.5 honda @40 amps (24v system reference) One 16hp honda @ 55 amps (24v system reference).

I further gave info on just the 6.5 honda system hear today in your comment that it could not "Boil" my 12 L16's.

There's no spouting involved.

OK- thank you for the definition. I'm multitasking here with a machine problem. There are other terms used for that condition I believe as well.

Now back to my question:

How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Please don't send me to a 38 page thread. I don't have time for that.  I'm prepared to explain anything I written by my direct experience and what I have learned from (Experts) in home off grid
systems such as mine.