having toiled over this for some time, it looks like this is what is coming down the pipe for our forum
there are two very distinct sub groups in our membership, those that are more focused on power generation
for standby or emergency use, and those that are more focused on combined heat and power.
of the two groups the combined heat and power side generally are more into testing, research and development
and extracting maximum efficiency from the unit, whereas those that are more into backup power are more results
oriented and efficiency, testing and R&D are of lower priority.
thats ok, we should promote both sides, because we can learn from each other.
a while back i was approached to start up a serious Research and Development group or forum, there are those that are apparently
very serious about micro cogeneration and its development but are not keen on getting involved with other aspects or getting mired down
in political discussion etc. so the question was how best to accomplish this goal of putting together such a group?
there were two choices that came immediately to mind,
one, was to set up a totally seperate forum, that would be very easy to do, but
it would have segmented our group and likely led to hard feelings somewhere and the decline in what we have working here.
so even though it would have been the easiest choice it was not a good one.
two, was to set aside an area within our forum for the combined heat research and development group. the question then becomes
how best to manage the two groups in an effective way so that they might co-exist and be a resource for each other.
it is my firm belief that the DIY group can learn much from EE, ME, Chemical E, Thermal E, Physicists, etc, and i am also convinced
that the professional group can learn a lot from the DIY group that has learned through empirical evidence (school of hard knocks).
so here is how it is going to work
there will be a new section to our forum, this catagory for those not interested can certainly be "minimized" so that the forum will remain looking the same. the overall function of the forum will remain the same for everyone and will remain free to all who want to use it.
the new catagory will be accessible to all, however to participate in that group one will have to join that group, it will also be a "fee" based group. (more on the fee later) The activity and posting done in that group will be accessible as read only to any forum member that is not a member of the research group. If a member wishes to ask a question of that group there will be a single board to address questions to that group. This is an effort to keep the topics on topic and limit sidebar discussions, tangeants etc.
there are many benefits to both groups for this type of structure, both groups learn from each other, the forum remains free for those that are not interested in joining the group, the section that is fee based will not be as cluttered and will stay on topic, the fee's will provide funding to keep the forum alive (which benefits those that wish not to participate at that level directly), the fee's will also be used to produce a certificate of membership and a card for your wallet, there are also several other benefits that relate to regulations that i cannot go into yet.
the fee rate will be something nominal, and not what most would consider a burden, it will be an annual membership sort of thing.
there will likely also be a means for those who have financial hardships to join the group, my thinking is it will be based on being voted in
based on the quality of the members questions to that group, and other things like background experience.
while i expect there will be many questions, i would ask the membership to take a few moments to think about the prospects, and what there is to gain vs what extra effort it might take to accomplish.
i am not aware of another forum structured in this manner, but then again there is no other forum (that i am aware of) that has the need for this sort of structure (again i can't get into the details of "why" just yet, i need you guys to trust me on this one). without having a forum structure model to emmulate we are left to develop a model of our own.
at this point i would ask only for a little patience from the membership, any and all support is appreciated, and we shall see if this is something that works out to be as good as we think it should be.
thanks to all that contribute to the success of the forum, you are all much appreciated.
admin
I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt as requested, but I feel it's a mistake.
If you have ever spent any time on the diyaudio forum, I would submit that it is one of the most robust forums on the web. What is interesting about it, is the playing field is very level regarding new ideas and projects. There is no need for artificial boundaries and some of the top circuit designers in the electronics industry contribute regularly to the forum. I would submit that lowly newbies asking questions often spurs discussion that would otherwise have not been considered by the "experts". The admin group works very hard ensuring folks stay on topic and deletes posts that don't.
Unfortunately, the concept of "experts" in society only tends to fuel egos and limit discussion. Further, charging a fee for me to correct or contribute to a discussion that my be off-course or inaccurate is ridiculous in my opinion.
I think the 10,000 post milestone speaks for itself regarding the success of the forum. Why segment or change a formula that's working?
Just my $.02,
Steve
Hi Steve,
I understand where you are coming from on diyaudio forum. I belong to a Hi end audio group and we tend to stay away from tradition that some of the designers are like gods. We like to get into research and look for better ways to improve products and reliabilty of them.
This is what this forum needs to be based on. We need to look for ways to improve efficency of our products here and continue to look for ways to stay EPA complient.
I believe we are on the right track. Some people might not agree but we must stay up on new technology and learn as much as we can otherwise we will fall along the wayside as some other fourms have done.
Henry
It would be interesting to hear the nature of what is identified as being a problem with the current setup. I have some experience on another forum where there has been a problem of interference from input that is often totally, totally off base or absolutely entry level and a lot of good posters have gotten tired of it and left.
Also what if anything is there to be lost by the proposed changes?
unlike the diyaudio forum, we are at odds with the epa and must whether we like it or not play within the rules and regulations
as laid out by that controlling authority.
we have a choice, we stick with a finite suppy of old existing engine's, which will run out and limit new folks from getting involved
or we step up and lead by example.
there are other forums around that cater to the existing stuff, the antique engine forums, the old lister forum are but a few.
what sets us apart is being forward thinking and proactive, when this forum was first launched some 7 plus months ago there
was a lot of talk of thing like "oh its so big and cumbersome" "its so overwhelming" blah blah blah
when the reality is it is loosely based on the structure similar to a table of contents of a typical technical book.
we certainly would have easily setup a second forum to cater to research and development and then few folks from the diy group would
have benefited or we would have lost membership to the new forum, either way has its problems.
the compromise was to do what is proposed, yes there will be two different groups and yes there may well be some words back and forth, but every forum has that anyway from time to time.
also if you don't like how you are treated you have the option of paying the fee and moving over to participate fully in the research and development group, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing so provided they don't make an ass of themselves or start going off topic.
one of the most significant reasons for making this change will become apparent very soon, and i think there will be universal acceptance and a collective comment that will be something like "wow, why didn't we think of this sooner?"
admin
ps. there is nothing to be lost with this change that i can see, we as a group have nothing to lose and much to gain.
I tend to agree on both sides, on the fence. I read just about ever post, but tend to glance over the more technical stuff, electronic controllers etc. This is out of my field of knowedge. I like simpler stuff I can fix or replace if need be, without breaking the bank or waiting weeks for a replacemnt electronic gizmo. I rely on my generators ever day. It is not a hobby. When something goes wrong, I need to get it going now with simple stuff.
That said, some of you guys out there are incredible with what you do, or are trying to do. I want a Mobile Bob 24 volt a battery charger with two alternators. I would never know about that without this forum. Collecting stuff for one right now. Thanks to all which ever way it goes.
Chris
we can look at the change as some new playground equipment being installed in our park
and along with new equipment we are attracting some new kids from down the block
now we just got to learn how to play together :)
bob g
Hi Chris,
I see their might be a misunderstanding how the changes will take place.
Here is part that was posted by the Administrator:
there will be a new section to our forum, this catagory for those not interested can certainly be "minimized" so that the forum will remain looking the same. the overall function of the forum will remain the same for everyone and will remain free to all who want to use it.
the new catagory will be accessible to all, however to participate in that group one will have to join that group, it will also be a "fee" based group. (more on the fee later) The activity and posting done in that group will be accessible as read only to any forum member that is not a member of the research group. If a member wishes to ask a question of that group there will be a single board to address questions to that group. This is an effort to keep the topics on topic and limit sidebar discussions, tangeants etc.
there are many benefits to both groups for this type of structure, both groups learn from each other, the forum remains free for those that are not interested in joining the group, the section that is fee based will not be as cluttered and will stay on topic, the fee's will provide funding to keep the forum alive (which benefits those that wish not to participate at that level directly), the fee's will also be used to produce a certificate of membership and a card for your wallet, there are also several other benefits that relate to regulations that i cannot go into yet.
I hope this clears things up.
Henry
Quote from: admin on May 07, 2010, 11:37:49 AM
having toiled over this for some time, it looks like this is what is coming down the pipe for our forum
there are two very distinct sub groups in our membership, those that are more focused on power generation
for standby or emergency use, and those that are more focused on combined heat and power.
of the two groups the combined heat and power side generally are more into testing, research and development
and extracting maximum efficiency from the unit, whereas those that are more into backup power are more results
oriented and efficiency, testing and R&D are of lower priority.
What's the name of this forum?...."microcogen.infoQuotethats ok, we should promote both sides, because we can learn from each other./
I agree, there are many here that share knowledge, irrespective of weather the q is in regards to one or the other. That's the way it should be...it creates depth.Quotea while back i was approached to start up a serious Research and Development group or forum, there are those that are apparently
very serious about micro cogeneration and its development but are not keen on getting involved with other aspects or getting mired down
in political discussion etc. so the question was how best to accomplish this goal of putting together such a group?
There is a completely separate chapter of this forum for political banter....but sometimes the topic is intrinsically linked to political issues...as long as the the topic doesn't completely stray form the nuts and bolts..I think its fine...it can easily be asked to stop..or get a moderator involved...but what I have found on this forum is tame as compare to the wildwild internet. I haven't seen one topic where someone tokk something so personal as to start a flame war...that is unheard of.Quotethere were two choices that came immediately to mind,
one, was to set up a totally seperate forum, that would be very easy to do, but
it would have segmented our group and likely led to hard feelings somewhere and the decline in what we have working here.
so even though it would have been the easiest choice it was not a good one.
two, was to set aside an area within our forum for the combined heat research and development group. the question then becomes
how best to manage the two groups in an effective way so that they might co-exist and be a resource for each other.
I fail to see what the difference would be, in just adding another chapter to the forumQuoteit is my firm belief that the DIY group can learn much from EE, ME, Chemical E, Thermal E, Physicists, etc, and i am also convinced
that the professional group can learn a lot from the DIY group that has learned through empirical evidence (school of hard knocks).
so here is how it is going to work
Trying to fix something that doesn't appear to be broke...sure seems like a waste of energy and not very effecient.Quotethere will be a new section to our forum, this catagory for those not interested can certainly be "minimized" so that the forum will remain looking the same. the overall function of the forum will remain the same for everyone and will remain free to all who want to use it.
the new catagory will be accessible to all, however to participate in that group one will have to join that group, it will also be a "fee" based group. (more on the fee later) The activity and posting done in that group will be accessible as read only to any forum member that is not a member of the research group. If a member wishes to ask a question of that group there will be a single board to address questions to that group. This is an effort to keep the topics on topic and limit sidebar discussions, tangeants etc.
This is a ridiculous concept. 1st a well moderated forum is easily kept on track. I'm all for the idea of having a research concept in/on the forum...trying to create a separation zone by putting up a fence, that is easily climbed by paying a fee to join, will not solve the problem poster.
It also then fosters two classes of citizens...which I don't think will be productive. I'm all for paying to keep this forum alive...just tell me where to donate. As a matter of fact I think many would be willing to be financially contributing members...much like public television and radio...Each contributing member, gets an acknowledgment next to his handle...it can be funded as a co-op, where the cost are estimated for the year/s and the split between the members.Quotethere are many benefits to both groups for this type of structure, both groups learn from each other, the forum remains free for those that are not interested in joining the group, the section that is fee based will not be as cluttered and will stay on topic, the fee's will provide funding to keep the forum alive (which benefits those that wish not to participate at that level directly), the fee's will also be used to produce a certificate of membership and a card for your wallet, there are also several other benefits that relate to regulations that i cannot go into yet.
This is an anecdotal justification.Quotethe fee rate will be something nominal, and not what most would consider a burden, it will be an annual membership sort of thing.
Hell I'll contribute $100.00 right now...just tell me where to send it to...I have received more than that in value so far to date, and I'm a firm believer in in paying my way.Quotethere will likely also be a means for those who have financial hardships to join the group, my thinking is it will be based on being voted in
based on the quality of the members questions to that group, and other things like background experience.
I see no need if we have a contributing member donation, I'll the forum will recieve more than it's needs are just from voluntary members.Quotewhile i expect there will be many questions, i would ask the membership to take a few moments to think about the prospects, and what there is to gain vs what extra effort it might take to accomplish.
i am not aware of another forum structured in this manner, but then again there is no other forum (that i am aware of) that has the need for this sort of structure (again i can't get into the details of "why" just yet, i need you guys to trust me on this one). without having a forum structure model to emmulate we are left to develop a model of our own.
at this point i would ask only for a little patience from the membership, any and all support is appreciated, and we shall see if this is something that works out to be as good as we think it should be.
Rolling something out and not giving all the details seems like the wrong approach...if you got some good news, that comes with the changes either spill it all at one time...or hold you water until you can. Especially if there is no apparent sign of dysfunction with in this forum.Quotethanks to all that contribute to the success of the forum, you are all much appreciated.
admin
Thank you admin and the other powers that conceived this forum, and took the initiative to get it up and running...Now let the member grow this forum like they have been, fix anything that is apparently broken...but but don't be a GWB and start a proactive war.
One thing I have found, is a leadership that poles it's members, for action and ways to improve an organization is well ahead of an org that has an Idealist at the helm... that fails to involve them in choosing a direction.
Lloyd
[/quote]
Thanks for posting your comment Jens.
Guys lets not get to worked up over some changes coming up. I think the administrator and others are working hard to tie the new group and this forum together. I remember members getting worked up for nothing on having all the categorys here on this forum when it was first launched back in Septmber of last year. Well it seems like everyone adjusted just fine. Yes their will be some members griping and complaining but I see the changes being healthy for this fourm.
Henry
As long as I can still have access to all of you great people, I'll continue to enjoy this forum. I'd like to think I may have added a little here and there, and know that I have learned a whole bunch more. If admin wants (or feels the need) to change the forum, all I ask is that it doesn't disband. Just let me know where to send my money, and I'll adapt.
cri·tique (krĭ-tēk')
n.
1.
A critical review or commentary, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.
2.
A critical discussion of a specified topic.
3.
The art of criticism.
tr.v. cri·tiqued, cri·tiqu·ing, cri·tiques Usage Problem
To review or discuss critically.
[French, from Greek kritikē (tekhnē), (art) of criticism, feminine of kritikos, critical; see critic.]
Usage Note: Critique has been used as a verb meaning "to review or discuss critically" since the 18th century, but lately this usage has gained much wider currency, in part because the verb criticize, once neutral between praise and censure, is now mainly used in a negative sense. But this use of critique is still regarded by many as pretentious jargon, although resistance appears to be weakening. In our 1997 ballot, 41 percent of the Usage Panel rejected the sentence As mock inquisitors grill him, top aides take notes and critique the answers with the President afterward. Ten years earlier, 69 percent disapproved of this same sentence. Resistance is still high when a person is critiqued: 60 percent of the Usage Panel rejects its use in the sentence Students are taught how to do a business plan and then are critiqued on it. Thus, it may be preferable to avoid this word. There is no exact synonym, but in most contexts one can usually substitute go over, review, or analyze. · Note, however, that critique is widely accepted as a noun in a neutral context; 86 percent of the Panel approved of its use in the sentence The committee gave the report a thorough critique and found it both informed and intelligent.
crit·i·cism
/ˈkrɪtəˌsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[krit-uh-siz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything.
2.
the act of passing severe judgment; censure; faultfinding.
com·plain
/kəmˈpleɪn/ Show Spelled[kuhm-pleyn] Show IPA
–verb (used without object)
1.
to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault: He complained constantly about the noise in the corridor.
2.
to tell of one's pains, ailments, etc.: to complain of a backache.
3.
to make a formal accusation: If you think you've been swindled, complain to the police.
con·cern
/kənˈsɜrn/ Show Spelled[kuhn-surn] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1.
to relate to; be connected with; be of interest or importance to; affect: The water shortage concerns us all.
2.
to interest or engage (used reflexively or in the passive, often fol. by with or in): She concerns herself with every aspect of the business.
3.
to trouble, worry, or disquiet: I am concerned about his health.
–noun
4.
something that relates or pertains to a person; business; affair: Law is the concern of lawyers.
5.
a matter that engages a person's attention, interest, or care, or that affects a person's welfare or happiness: The party was no concern of his.
6.
worry, solicitude, or anxiety: to show concern for someone in trouble.
7.
important relation or bearing: This news is of concern to all of us.
—Synonyms
1. touch, involve. 3. disturb. 5. burden, responsibility. Concern, care, worry connote an uneasy and burdened state of mind. Concern implies an anxious sense of interest in something: concern over a friend's misfortune. Care suggests a heaviness of spirit caused by dread, or by the constant pressure of burdensome demands: Poverty weighs a person down with care. Worry is an active state of agitated uneasiness and restless apprehension: He was distracted by worry over the stock market. 8. firm, house.
—Antonyms
6. indifference.
guys:
there is really nothing to get knotted up about!
there is no need for money to keep the forum up and running, the fee will be only to cover the
basic expenses relating to the added load that the new research group will bring to the forum.
and that fee will be very low!
the core of this forum is not going to change!
there is simply going to be an extension or addition to the forum, a research group and that is all!
those that are concerned might go back and read or reread the "vision statement" and be especially careful to read
between the lines.
the change will be a positive one for this group or the change will be removed, pure and simple
i could just as easily simply started a completely new and seperate forum to address the need, but thought
that incorporating it here would be in the best interest of all who frequent and contribute to this forum.
would it have been better to find out later that there is another forum that is fee based and closed from view to our members?
would this not made folks feel like a different class of citizen?
the way this is going to work is it will be open for all to read and there will be access to post questions to that group, "and" should
one want to get involved with the research group rather than simply continue as usual with the diy group he can join the research group, pay the fee and jump right in!
how is that tantamount to being a second class citizen? everyone has the ability to join if they like or simply continue on as usual and read all they desire and learn from the other side.
it would have been much more disruptive in my opinion to have waited and dropped the changes on the membership all at once, i felt
it was in the interest of all to pass along what information that i can as it is available. also it is important to note that the changes have to be put in place in stages which would have been more confusing.
this place is not going away, quite the contrary, we are here to stay and we are going to be very proactive in our drive to make this the best forum of its type on the planet.
in summary
the forum is here to stay
the forum will continue to function as it has
there will be no changes to the forum that affect the membership in a negative way
there will be another catagory, with a series of boards attached to it, that will be "our" research and development wing
there will be new members coming along, some of which hopefull will be EE, ME, Thermal engineers, Chemical engineers, Professors
and perhaps a few other professionals from other disciplines
and ....
there will be some other benefits that will be useful to all of us, aside from what we might learn from each other.
its really that simple guys, so don't get worried that we will mess up what we have.
we have too many good moderators and other interested parties to allow anything bad to happen to our forum.
admin
Loyd,
I took my last post off. I think you got offended by it. My appologies. But you need to look back and see how worked up you got on over the topic Re: New Group and Changes. Changes are a way of life. This fourm would of never came in manifestation if the people that started this fourm never did anything. They could of accepted the way things were 8 months ago and left things alone.
I think it comes down saying to you and some others will just have to accept the changes that will be taking place very soon. I think you will find out it will not be such a big deal once the changes are in effect.
As the Admin just wrote: The core of this forum is not going to change!
There is simply going to be an extension or addition to the forum, a research group and that is all!
I think overall quite a few of us, including you Loyd, have contributed very good topics and posts here. And in turn we learned much from them. This will not be changed at all. The changes that will be taking place should bring in more new members and hopfully some will be engineers, professors, research groops and others. This should enhance the potental of the forum and we should have more usefull info for us to learn from.
Henry
Hi Henry,
I am not easily offended...I am not offended by what someone wants to do with something they control...
I am just but a peon here. That being said I value this forum, and want to contribute bc I feel this forum has been a big help to me...Some may think I am a trouble maker...but I like to think that I am an instigator, of thought, that leads to discussion, that leads to solutions.
In my life things that cause great consternation usually lead to a thought process, by all involved that pushes a concept higher. I've never really been a mundane thinker...and that usually offends many.
My mo is that when I am out of touch, or on a train going somewhere I don't want to go...is to just step off, at the next stop. I never to begrudge, bc I don't look back...
So no one needs worry about offending me...I know when to get off..and I'll be gone when that time comes...no complaints.
Lloyd
besides Henry...you're one of the guys I respect most here...so it would take quite a lot for you to offend me.
Hi Loyd,
I never think of anyone as a peon on this forum. I have learned some wonderfull things from some of the simplest posts here. Lots of your posts are loaded with very good info and the complex info in some of them is very valuable to all.
Thanks again,
Henry
If you want maximize worthwhile contributions, and minimize off-topic and worthless comments, you may want to consider doing away with giving people titles solely based on their posting level (i.e., Newbie, Hero Member, etc). If one spent some time at the Lister Engine Forum, one might observe the correlation that a person's knowledge of the subject and worthwhile contribution was often inversely proportional to their posting level. I am not saying the situation is that extreme here, but I do think giving people titles based on their posting level can create exactly the situation you seem to want to avoid.
#1 we have to form a bonofide research and development group in order to ...
#2 form an alliance with a specific group, that will allow us to...
#3 benefit in a number of ways that have been cut off to us in the last couple of years
i have been led to believe that "if" we form the research and development group, we can then qualify for a partnership, that
will allow us to do certain things that we cannot currently do.
thats all i am going to say at this point, and i am not going to get out a box of crayons to illustrate what by now should be fairly
clear to everyone.
fundamentally there is nothing wrong with what we are or have been doing, this is simply the next step in an evolution of the forum
that was laid out in the vision statement.
admin
Quote from: admin on May 08, 2010, 11:37:22 AM
#1 we have to form a bonofide research and development group in order to ...
#2 form an alliance with a specific group, that will allow us to...
#3 benefit in a number of ways that have been cut off to us in the last couple of years
i have been led to believe that "if" we form the research and development group, we can then qualify for a partnership, that
will allow us to do certain things that we cannot currently do.
thats all i am going to say at this point, and i am not going to get out a box of crayons to illustrate what by now should be fairly
clear to everyone.
fundamentally there is nothing wrong with what we are or have been doing, this is simply the next step in an evolution of the forum
that was laid out in the vision statement.
admin
That could be construed as a suggestion that the group identity should be heavily stacked with professional credentials to provide credibility to attract the partnership. I can also see that scenario being easier to then attract more of the same, since, to some extent these people are reluctant to be associated with a venue that has dog fighting going on in one of the adjacent tents. Lol! Makes sense but the euphemisms sound much nicer. That point was brought up early in the forum when allowing the political rant was being discussed.
That is the cross to bear of an administrator: someone is always looking for something nefarious in your every deed! There is a lot of technique in wrapping a package that determines how it will be seen. Hell If you gift wrap your garbage and leave it on the front porch it will just disappear!
Anyways, it sounds like some good moves afoot into a new arena.
AFAIK the forum software itself is to blame for assigning names to people based on their number of submitted posts. It is a simple seniority system.
Quote from: rcavictim on May 08, 2010, 04:46:50 PM
AFAIK the forum software itself is to blame for assigning names to people based on their number of submitted posts. It is a simple seniority system. Kinda like "Youth is wasted on young people". Oh to have a young strong body with the brain and experience I have now. I'd be even more of a potential lethal hazard to myself now! :D
Indeed it is... and, whilst it might be possible to modify the criteria so everyone becomes an instant "hero member", I can't see any way of turning the whole thing off altogether.
Quote from: sailawayrb on May 08, 2010, 09:38:03 AM
If you want maximize worthwhile contributions, and minimize off-topic and worthless comments, you may want to consider doing away with giving people titles solely based on their posting level (i.e., Newbie, Hero Member, etc). If one spent some time at the Lister Engine Forum, one might observe the correlation that a person's knowledge of the subject and worthwhile contribution was often inversely proportional to their posting level. I am not saying the situation is that extreme here, but I do think giving people titles based on their posting level can create exactly the situation you seem to want to avoid.
I tend to agree, but I just tune it out. I've noticed on some other forums that the most prolific authors can also be the least likable, or have a (very) inflated view of their self-worth... but I'd not say there was any specific correlation.
Unfortunately, as I say above, there doesn't appear to be any way of turning it off...
Quote from: sailawayrb on May 08, 2010, 09:38:03 AM
If you want maximize worthwhile contributions, and minimize off-topic and worthless comments, you may want to consider doing away with giving people titles solely based on their posting level (i.e., Newbie, Hero Member, etc). If one spent some time at the Lister Engine Forum, one might observe the correlation that a person's knowledge of the subject and worthwhile contribution was often inversely proportional to their posting level. I am not saying the situation is that extreme here, but I do think giving people titles based on their posting level can create exactly the situation you seem to want to avoid.
I tend to agree, but I just tune it out. I've noticed on some other forums that the most prolific authors can also be the least likable, or have a (very) inflated view of their self-worth... but I'd not say there was any specific correlation.
Unfortunately, as I say above, there doesn't appear to be any way of turning it off...
[/quote]
Seems like all the professional forums (ASME, IEEE, AIAA, SAE) turn it OFF? Even George's forum turned it OFF:
http://slowspeedengines.com/forum/
While George knows more about engines/generators than most and while I wouldn't classify him as an IT expert, he still managed to turn it OFF :)
I tend to agree, but I just tune it out. I've noticed on some other forums that the most prolific authors can also be the least likable, or have a (very) inflated view of their self-worth...
Hey.... I have a huge ego, and am not very liked, but don't have many posts. How'd that happen? ::)
I have not yet been anointed into the second house. But I have been irritated by the two house architecture. I got interested in a "motor oil as a fuel" discussion but couldn't quote my engine's manual recommendations because there was no reply button or tab. What the ?????? And then the thread originator clued me in. Exxxcussssssss me.
This is like toll bridges. You use my tax dollar supported roads (the internet) but you want me to pay to use your bridge (web site) that you've built with non copyrighted material (steel from China).
You want a couple of bucks to help pay for stuff? Seems completely reasonable to me. Set up a donation area. I'll PayPal you a couple of bucks every once in a while. Good Faith and The Golden Rule are pretty much two way streets.
Casey
Quote from: LowGear on June 08, 2010, 07:38:30 PM
I have not yet been anointed into the second house. But I have been irritated by the two house architecture. I got interested in a "motor oil as a fuel" discussion but couldn't quote my engine's manual recommendations because there was no reply button or tab. What the ?????? And then the thread originator clued me in. Exxxcussssssss me.
This is like toll bridges. You use my tax dollar supported roads (the internet) but you want me to pay to use your bridge (web site) that you've built with non copyrighted material (steel from China).
You want a couple of bucks to help pay for stuff? Seems completely reasonable to me. Set up a donation area. I'll PayPal you a couple of bucks every once in a while. Good Faith and The Golden Rule are pretty much two way streets.
Casey
Casey,
Your attitude about the "two tier" system isn't unreasonable, but keep reading, please.
With SOMRAD becoming an 'official' origination, certain legality's need to be kept up, however distasteful they may be.
I do believe that membership is part of the legality.
He could have charged a dollar, but I'd guess that $15 is low enough to separate the folks who are serious about this and those who are not.
I don't think you'll find any professional society with lower yearly dues !
I'm pretty sure that the folks who are filing the paperwork and such are/have been running their butts off trying to get all of the ducks in a row. (much like herding cats, government stuff...)
A little more than a dollar a month isn't much to pay for that.
Also, as you've seen, the info we're collecting isn't private, it's out in the open for all to see.
We're not trying to be a secret society here !
I used to get a sour taste in my mouth about the legal system and all of it's BS.
I'm come to realize that it's as easy to use the system as it is to be used by it.
Bob and company are doing their best to insulate us from the paper work, and to let us try to collect some data and get regulatory relief from the EPA.
To jump through a $15 hoop doesn't bother me at all.
I have a very good friend, who's been a political activist for most of his life, look at what we're trying to do here.
You won't find a man more critical about our government, and tight with a dollar, yet he gave me the 15 bucks to join him up, just on the basis of what we're trying to do.
That's mighty high phrase from a my who's political acumen is much higher than mine.
At some point you need to trust others and learn to delegate stuff you're not good at.
I trust Bob and company to be doing the right thing here.
Crumpite
Casey:
you present a unique situation for me, in that it illustrates how no good deed goes unpunished.
i talked about the upcoming change weeks before the change, and i toiled many late hours worrying how
to do this dual purpose forum without pissing off half or more of the membership.
funny thing is i don't remember you adding any input positive or negative before now? maybe i am wrong?
let me restate the thinking that went into the decision
1. there was a real need for a research and development group.
2. it would have been very easy to cherry pick members from here, there and elsewhere to populate it,
3. it would have been even easier to have made it a closed forum, invitation only
4. i didn't want to take away from this forum, rather i wanted to add another dimension to it.
5. i wanted the new research and development wing to be open source for anyone to read and learn from
6. sorry but there is a need for a nominal fee, that is set to a value that is hopefully sufficient to cover the cost
of production of membership certificates, mailing those certificates, and maintaining the filings needed by the EPA
along with the ongoing contact and info swap with the EPA
7. this forum was paid for, setup by, and maintained by exactly 3 people, aside from the aid of other members that
are moderators who also need a lot of thanks. i would like to keep it that way if possible.
8. any excess funds from the SOMRAD group membership dues, go toward paying the fee's i pay to have this forum on
what you call the "free" internet, perhaps you don't know, but domain names, websites, forums all have an annual fee attached to
them.
9. no system it perfect, no human is perfect, god knows i am not even close!
10. if i recall correctly i posted in one of the "read first" topics, words to the effect that this is an evolving idea, and i am not sure
if it will work as designed, if not i will have no problems taking those that want to go and setup a closed forum to accomplish those goals
as set out for the SOMRAD group. it really won't bother me at all to do so, the losers will be those that are then truly excluded.
Casey, i know you don't like this setup, and believe me i don't like it any more than you do, however
until something better comes along this is what we got.
i would suggest that if you don't want to join the SOMRAD group, you simply add your comments to whatever topic you like under
the "questions to the R&D group" or follow the directions and join the group.
if the 15 bucks presents a hardship, please feel free to contact me
i am not without compassion and will make an exception where there is a real need.
and btw, should a million folks join the SOMRAD group, there will likely then be a bunch of money sitting in a rather large coffee can
should that day come, i will notify you and everyone else and we will have a real nice convention somewhere and the drinks will be on me!
:)
bob g
Don't let it bother you Bob. The SOMRA idea is a good one and you are doing the right thing. I for one am excited about it and really look forward to where it will go.Thanks for the opportunity.
Ken Gardner
thanks guys for the kind words,
the problem comes down to this basically
we have a good group, and all is good
we want to partner with the EPA, for reasons given, so
we need a research and development group,,
therein is the problem, trying to make the 3 disparate groups come together and co-exist
so far i see no mob at my door with torches and pitchforks, so maybe it will all work out in the end?
anybody for a round of "kum-ba-ya" ?
(see i don't even know how to spell that!)
:)
bob g
Bob,
Jens is right. It is all good! Your hard work towards this is appreciated.
for the record, my knickers are not in a knot
i look at this as an exercise that i might learn from,
and if i have learned anything it is...
you can't please everyone.
as long as i make an honest effort to try, then i can look myself in the mirror
and feel good about the effort.
at the end of the day that is all that really counts
bob g
Dear Bob,
I don't read good so I only read stuff that really grabs my attention. I guess not being able to contribute caught my attention. Life: If it's important to you then go for it. I have "take no prisoner" programs. Sometimes the dream is more important that dragging the whole gang along. I won't quote what my wife calls me when I'm "On Mission".
"Research" to me suggests "hypothesis" - "testing" or data collection - "review" - "conclusion". I suggest that "UMO as a fuel" is more like people talking story or quoting manufactures recommendations than research. So I urge you to keep the SOMRAD section on mission and to urge your bi-members to keep their threads in the appropriate section.
I'm just caught up in the "makin lectricity" with the funny looking engines that look like they are from another era but make fine servants in todays world. I live in Hawaii so if you find a use for the 70 or so percent of energy that is wasted on heat please bring it to my attention. I am not offended by crayola drawings if they get my attention.
OHHHHhhhhh. The Witte factory manual for the model DB specifically recommends against using motor oil as a fuel. That same paragraph also recommends against using crude oil as well. Now there is a bit of neat pseudo history about these single cylinder thumpers.
In closing I think a donation jar open to all members is still a good idea. I do have some idea of the time and money it costs to keep this show on the road and I do have a wonderful time here learning and growing. Sometimes I think it is the best therapy available.
Thank you,
Casey
Staying on Task. I'll post it over in "Waste Motor Oils".
Casey
Though I have not currently enrolled in the SOMRAD group I Am thinking about it, I am a little worried about the EPA using it as a list of "engines to collect" when & if they decide to, kind of like the BATF form "4473" that the red army gathers from the hardware stores in the movie "Red Dawn" to "collect" the firearms from the new "workers" of the new russian province of "america", other than that i see no problem with the way the system is set up. If you want to join, then join, if not then don't. The info is still free to read, What's not to like about that? Hey Bob, can I send you $ 15.00 a year & still not be a member? Kind of like the best of both worlds to me !!
Scott R.
I am new to this forum but belong to other forums. I just happened to fall into this topic and this has caught my attention. It seems to be a pretty hot topic. I have a few cents worth opinions I would like to share that I have learned over the years.
First, it makes no difference if our government is right or wrong on decisions it makes it is still the government or some would say the final word.
Next, anytime some one challenges the decisions it has to be done on their playing fields. They tend not to listen to facts they choose to listen to words. (EPA)
If developing something such as a group of lets say experts to battle Big Brother why is this bad? No one of us could do this on our own. I may work in a high technical field but in the end I just want to lead a simple life.
I think the old saying nothing in life is free is pretty much true now as it was 100 years ago. Being able to be a part of something like this forum or any other forum for nothing is really being greedy. I am sure I would not have much to offer in the fight against Big Brother. Donating something towards this fight would be my gift and pleasure.
I dont expect this move to create any large problems because in the end I believe it will benefit everyone not only in this forum but who would like to be able to do thier thing without Big Brother telling them it is destroying the world. Thank you for letting me give my 2 cents worth. Mike