What are peoples opinions of these? I'm planning out my microhydro ( 100ft head, 20gpm, pelton ) and units powered by these are cheaper than the PM alternatives.
EcoInnovations in NZ sells a full setup for $1200 shipped + $500 for 48V
https://www.powerspout.com
I could put a system together out of parts, $100 off Ebay for the pelton wheel, $100 for a Smartdrive motor, $10 for water jets, ? for bearings etc, ? for time and effort.
I'll start off doing the weir and penstock anyway so I have some time to really work out the power generation part.
Distance from generator to shed with batteries etc is probably going to be around 600ft. Bank is 48V.
personally if i were going to transfer 600ft, i would want to generate at 240vac or more
of course it depends on how much power are you talking about? 200 watts or 2000watts?
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on February 19, 2010, 06:43:18 PM
personally if i were going to transfer 600ft, i would want to generate at 240vac or more
of course it depends on how much power are you talking about? 200 watts or 2000watts?
bob g
With that head and flow rate it would be 200 watts. Of course, it's 200 watts for 24/7 without dealing with fuel. :)
DC over 600'?
I would be looking for 240 vac or more, for the main reason that the wire to move any appreciable DC current that distance is going to cost a small fortune. Multiply the voltage by 10 and you only need to carry 1/10 the current for the same ammount of energy delivered. That is a whole lot smaller wire. I would be looking for a 240V or a 480V 3 phase generator head and step the voltage down and rectify it at the battery bank...
The trick will be finding a 250 watt size alternator with a high voltage output, preferably with a PM rotor, as running power for excitation would be a pain. Since the wattage is so low, single phase would be OK; it's not a big deal to filter just 5amps of current (48V DC battery bank).
I think I would look for a brushless DC motor to convert for this application, but maybe someone else would have some better ideas.
It's a pity to have to pay for a 1250 watt pelton wheel/generator system when you only are going to get a couple hundred watts.
PS- Such a beast does exist, this found at backwoodssolar.com: W-STREAM 2:
2 nozzle with 240v High voltage alternator for long distance transmission can be special ordered: $2670 plus $50.00 shipping; 8+ week lead time
Plus another $900 (!) for a 400 watt step down transformer. Ouch.
These low volume products sure are pricey!
at those prices, independent R&D becomes very attractive
i would be looking into building my own turbine, using stainless spoons, and rewinding a stator for single phase
and pm excitation (as Bruce suggested).
i am not at all convinced that one could not come close to the same output for a bunch less money, provided one
puts enough time and persistence into it.
even if it only put out 100watts, build two of them!
bob g
this is going to be a case where i would build the turbine first, then test it with a prony brake to determine
it maximum power curve (best rpm vs torque) plot the two and find the intersection
then design an alternator to fit the parameter, bearing in mind that the higher the voltage the more efficient the alternator
transfer the power via high voltage AC, then step it down and rectify it for battery charging at the other end.
the wind power boys fight this battle as you know, and usually end up with about a 50% efficient alternator, which might
be good enough for your needs, however
if you can get 200watts with an alternator that is 50%, getting one that hits 75% will return 300watts,, which over a course
of a day is certainly worth the extra effort if you have need for the extra power.
in this case perhaps one of the aircore designs or the iron core axial could be used to good effect, you can tailor its operation
by altering its airgap, and you can wind the puppy for whatever voltage you want.
bob g
Bob G., you arrived at exactly the same conclusion I did several months ago when considering my hydro power situation. I decided to design/build myself so I could optimize the hardware to the site. I will be moving about 650 watts about 150 feet and planning to do it via 240 VAC. Having 240 VAC directly (and easily get 120 VDC) can come in handy. I also used this project to justify in my mind a good reason to finally get a lathe and a mill. :)
I'll go measure the flow today, I measured 20 gpm right at the end of summer in a drought year so that would be the minimum. Maximum may be 4x that.
Why use spoons over a $100 cast pelton wheel off Ebay? To maximize the speed/torque by changing the diameter? If I know exactly what I want I think I can find someone to cast me a bronze one as an art project.
When considering DIY, I have some time but not a lot so full blown engineering projects are out of the question really. I'm also tight on money so some combination of DIY and off the shelf would be perfect.
I've seen videos of the smartdrive motors being adjusted for power output so if it's designed right that could be taken advantage of.
I like the idea of an axial flux alternator, I was going to order one for my 6/1 but they didn't respond to my request in time.
They do offer this for $499
Quote
PowerSpout HE (Upgrade)
This is the High-voltage Enabled version of the PowerSpout.
This is similar to our BE version but at a higher voltage and 3-phase ac output. The turbine will generate 300-500 vac that is fed into a battery bank via a step down transformer pack. A regulator and inverter system is required as per the BE version.
The main advantage of this over the BE PowerSpout is that the cable cost can be significantly less at these high voltages. The battery bank it typically 12/24/48 vdc. Only use a PowerSpout HE if you cannot economically cable your hydro at 100 vdc using our PowerSpout ME version. At 300-500 vac extreme care must be taken, this product is not for the DIY'er, only the professional RE installer.
I agree, $3500 is in the range where DIY starts to look more fun.
As Jedon says, you can buy aluminum or fiberglass Pelton wheels pretty cheap on Ebay...about $100. that leaves the high voltage 200 watt alternator. The diameter may be too large for a 200 watt system, unless the alternator is efficient at lower rpm.
One thought- since these are continuous and stable in operation, you could use the output AC to provide DC excitation via small toroid transformer and bridge; initial start could be via battery or charged up capacitor.
The cheapest auto alternator might be a start; rewind the stator for high voltage, maybe replace coil in claw pole assembly ??? Or try some PM's to replace the coil?
Lastly, I wonder why there are no low speed, piston type pumps for microhydro? Efficiency of the Pelton wheels seems likely to be poor in comparison.
Jedon, I think flow rate is limited by your select pipe diameter, as well as supply. How did you measure your flow rate? (I'm not familiar with micro-hydro system design.)
I just read a couple articles on the F&P motor used for as a generator; it looks like it should be much more efficient at low rpm, and far more suitable than an auto alternator for you application, Jedon.
I'm looking forward to learning more about the F&P used for your project!
Here's a source for a complete system, high voltage wired F&P alternator (300-500VAC), transformer, etc.
http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/p-17-pelton-turbine-high-voltage.aspx
This system price is $1700. Even with shipping from NZ, that's a much better deal than the Canadian unit above (Stream).
Bruce,
The link you posted is EcoInnovations in NZ who as it turns out also makes the Powerspout system I posted initially. For $1700 USD ( Powerspout high voltage AC, their newer product ) shipped it's certainly more affordable than systems from E&S and Harris.
I measured flow the simple way, the stream flows through a culvert so I just put a 5g bucket on the outflow and timed how long it took to fill up. So far depending on the season it's taken anywhere from 4-9s to fill the 5g bucket.
Piping size is certainly a consideration, too small and I have high friction losses and potential loss of flow rate, too large and I can't keep the pipe full which is even worse. I'm thinking 2.5" would be good, although maybe I should do 1/2 in 3" and the rest in 2.5".
I'm really out to lunch that I missed your original link. Sorry!
Very handy that you already have the full flow in a culvert. That sure simplifies your supply inlet.
Rewiring your own F&P would be an interesting project if you have the time. Sometimes the money you save isn't worth the time it costs.
A guy in NZ has some and will re-wire for $10/hr, takes 2-4 hours depending on what configuration you want. HE was selling them for $20-$50 each so even with shipping might be a good deal. The guy in the US selling them for $105 has factory seconds though so they are brand new.
The culvert is handy right now for measuring flow but doesn't help any with the actual project since it's downhill from where the pelton will go.
You can't beat that price for rewiring!
Has anyone heard of anybody using a tesla turbine for microhydro? I have about 65gpm with about 80' of head to experiment with, and the tesla looks dead easy to fabricate...
Quote from: Ronmar on February 20, 2010, 08:00:59 PM
Has anyone heard of anybody using a tesla turbine for microhydro? I have about 65gpm with about 80' of head to experiment with, and the tesla looks dead easy to fabricate...
Have not heard of anyone trying Tesla turbine for hydro, but I think it would work quite well...very efficient and there would be no blades to wear because of dirty water.
I thought that the Tesla was primarily designed for high pressure steam use? ???
Might work for water, but a bunch of mods would be in order, I'm afraid.
Ron
if i had the opportunity to work with hydro, i would go to a scrap yard and get an allison torque converter
and unbolt the body halves, remove the innards and use the stator element for my turbine, then
reassemble it after modifying for hydro input and outlet
or use the stator/turbine in the vertical position like the big boys and cold cast the intake and exhaust volutes
i have a feeling hydro would be a blast to work with,
sadly my property in kansas has no hydro possibility save for me pumping to a higher elevation and then recovering
the power on the down hill run, from what i can determine such systems are about 50% efficient, however
unlike batteries water doesn't wear out
bob g
One of the old fluid drive turbines might be better Bob, they are probably what, 16 -18 inches? A downside might be the fin angle though, they are straight IIRC, the ones from the Allison, are they curved? Not sure that I remember what was used in the Allison app.
Been out of the torque converter business for going on 14 years now. I'm just thinking out loud....
I don't remember many bolt together torque converters, the ones that bolted were all industrial units, the run of the mill automotive units were welded. I worked for Dacco Converters for 16 years, saw a LOT of the insides of darn near anything ever made in the converter line.
Ron
i was thinking along the lines of the allison mt40 series, it was a bolt together unit, and the blades were curved
with the stator being cast with blades having a heavily cambered profile, which would make it very efficient
and harnessing power.
when you look at one, it looks very much like an early generation hydro impeller
allison made millions of the mt series transmissions and they have been around forever, at least back to the korean war era
bob g
I'm not following you exactly, do you mean the cast aluminum center section with the one way sprag clutch (stator), or the pressed sheet metal back section that drives the tranny's input shaft? (turbine)
That's the way they were named when I worked on them back in the day, not saying that it was the correct terminology or anything,
just what we called 'em. I can't help it, I was born confused.
Ron
iirc it was the center section, and i don't remember if they had a sprag or not
i just remember them being cast aluminum with beautifully shaped blades/vanes
that i later learned to be what is known as a heavily cambered profile which is very efficient at
converting flow to mechanical force.
i seem to remember one out of a converter that i cut apart that did not have a sprag, but rather a spline steel inserted hub
i kept it under my bench for years because it reminded me so much of a hydro impeller such is used by the big vertical units in the old days.
having no natural water asset i haven't really given hydro power much thought since.
but would sure love to have that resource to work with!
give me a 100ft of head down a 2" black plastic pipe, and i would be busy as a bee working on eeking out every last watt.
bob g
Okay Gotcha! You are looking at building a downshot turbine wheel! I am a little slow this evening, sorry.
I had a little different take, I was thinking more along the line of a dual pelton type setup using the turbine sections.
The round thing on the left is the turbine in question, they are made of pretty light stamped sheet metal sections with interlocking tabs.
The one on the right we called the hub, it's pretty close to 1/4 inch stamped steel for the body, pretty heavy. The smaller part in the center is the stator, and yes they do have a one way clutch in them, at least every one that I have seen.
The pic is pretty bad, but if you look closely, the fins form a sort of cup that would catch water nicely.
Mount 2 of them on a common shaft with the fins facing each other separated by a few inches, shoot about a 3/4 inch stream of water in at both the bottom and top with a couple of wyes, I think they would work quite well.
Now that ya'll have given me an idea, I will have to give it a try, when I get time. So many ideas, so little time left from work, and family!
Ron
Let me try to post that again without the watermark!
Oh well not gonna work
I saw a youtube post about a guy experimenting making a Telsa turbine with CD disks. He got it working quite well, (poof of concept).
Chris
i have seen the tesla turbine on youtube before too,
has anyone seen one powering a load?
its pretty interesting seeing one spool up and whine like a turbo, but quite another to have one
that can actually power a load with some efficiency
not saying they are inefficient, or efficient, i don't know
because i haven't seen one doing useful work.
bob g
Bob
I have worked on the Allison with the assembled type converter. As I recall they were also made
with the more conventional weldup style also. I liked the assembled style as you could service
them as well as read possible upcoming failures by the finds that remain in the converter.
It was kind of like a centrifuge bowl... the bad news collects there.
Rob
I did some more reading on the F&P smart drive as alternator.
Here's some info on the stock stator winding from thebackshed.com:
"From factory the Fisher & Paykel stator is wired into one large star winding, producing 3 phase AC when used as a alternator. If we were to use this standard stator on our windmill the output voltage would range from 0 to 400 volts unloaded, and up to 3-4 amps maximum loaded, not a very usable range for charging batteries, and very dangerous to work with.
The standard F&P Smartdrive stators have either a string of 14 or 12 coils (also called "poles") for each phase. 3 phases, means 42 or 36 coils total, depending on what model stator you have."
Plan A: If you can live with 3- step down transformers, the stator windings can be left in the "stock" configuration. Three small variacs (100 watt) instead of transformers would let you dial in the output to suit your charge controller, so that other current limiting means would not be needed. This has the advantage of not needing filtering of the output DC, and only adds one extra (small) wire for the long run to the battery bank.
Plan B- rewire to single phase, about 120VAC. (Three strings in parallel.) Filter output DC via choke and caps. A single 250watt Variac would then suffice.
I wonder what the operating frequency will be???
PS- In retrospect, the variac approach is problematic unless the output voltage is not too much lower than the input; as the output windings are shared with the input. The variac must be rated for the lower output voltage current. With a big step down, it's inefficient due to excessive idle current. If the windings were configured for about 120VAC, then the step down to 60 volts or so would make a variac work out pretty well. For a bigger step down, transformers would have to be used.
When you ask if I can live with step down transformers, do you mean a loss in power? Noise? Cost?
Tesla turbines and other interesting setups sound cool but I don't think I have enough experience to mess with stuff too far from the norm ( at first :-) )
I do have an even larger source of hydro but it's much less accessible and 2000ft away but it is a lot of flow, I would have about 25ft of head and thousands of gallons per minutes. I could power the whole area off it! Maybe in a few years I'll tackle that one.
in a few years?
nothing like the present buddy!!
:)
if there is anything i have learned in life, that is not to put of any project you are passionate about,
you just don't know how many years you will have the ability to tackle them.
bob g
Go Bob! I like a positive attitude! But just how does one manage to get around juggling life?
If someone would give me that answer to that question, I would be a wealthy man.
Ron
Jedon, Transformers, if toroidal, would be more efficient than variacs, which are also toroids, but have no secondary winding. The problem is getting the right voltage out; easy with a variac, not so easy with transformer(s).
For an experimental system, with your power level and distance, converting the F&P windings to 120V, single phase, might be the easiest. You could get the guy in NZ to do that for you. Then a single variac will set the voltage to your 48V charge controller. What is your charge controller input voltage range?
I already have enough of a track record of biting off more than I can chew! Gotta finish up what I'm already eating before biting off too much more... I'm only 40, I have plenty of time left to do fun projects :-)
I don't have a charge controller yet, I have my PV hooked right up to the batteries since the PV outputs 65-69V.
I'll get a charge controller if needed of course, don't need a MPPT right just PWM? Midnight for $200?
Depending on your PV max current, the Tristar 45 and Tristar 60 look like good PWM, multistage charge controllers. The former is about $150.
I just measured and it only took 2.2 seconds to fill the 5g bucket so 136gpm? Wow a lot of flow in the winter! That would get me in the 1KW range which would be awesome!
Better winter performance is great- much more lighting, etc. then, and PV performance is at it's lowest.
So your feed pipe just got much bigger, and you'll have some extra plumbing for more nozzles in the winter, plus an impact on the electronics as well to handle such a wide range of power.
looks like you need two turbines, one for high output in winter and a much smaller one for low output in winter
use the same transmission line, size it for low power, then
use it to transmit the high power at much higher voltage
that will be a fun project in my opinion
bob g
I could just use a single Harris Hydro turbine with 4 nozzles and a 48V PM alternator. Losses on 600ft of #2 wire should be 10% or so?
This is the easiest and most proven setup but is pricey. The nozzle inputs have valves on them so I can just turn them on and off depending on flow.
I wonder what 1200 feet of #2 wire will run these days. Has copper come down in price, or is inflation starting to hit metals?
last i checked the price of copper on the exchange is back up to about recently historic highs
not that the retail market for wire dropped much in the interim that i saw.
i would expect it will be expensive.
myself i would transmit at 480volts minimum over that distance.
bob g
Ouch, 2/0 copper is $3/ft, could I use Al?
sure you can use aluminum, but why?
far better to get the voltage up and transfer it that way
then you could probably make the 1200ft trip with 10guage
bob g
How far up is up? Or are you suggesting single conductor runs. The only reason I ask is Multi conductor
cord is insulation dependant...
I'm no expert... but have run into this problem with HV industrial controls. Where it was needed to either
buy special multi conductor wire or make single conductor runs spaced a givin distance apart. The single
runs were cheaper but required much more space.
Rob
FYI
I agree with Bob G and going to high voltage but if you want to go the aluminum route,
I just added a sub-panel in my basement for my11.2kw solar array. I used 2-2-2-4 aluminum Service entrance cable which i bought at home depot for 1.40 a foot. They also had 2-2-4 cable but i don't know the price but i suspect it should be a bit less expensive.
Jedon- I suspected as much on the wire. There's already the NZ system all engineered for a high voltage run, with step down transformer at your battery end, and you can ask them about how to best cope with your varied flow. Their small unit can handle up to 1000 watts, so a single unit solution with some seasonal nozzle shutoffs may serve well.
Perhaps they can offer some suggestions for battery charge current limiting, also. The Pelton wheel speed must be kept up to keep voltages up, so the battery charger current draw on the microhydro must be limited, somehow. With asingle phase wiring configuration and a variac, as I suggested before for a homegrown solution, that would be a snap. With a fixed transformer, you'd need a switching current regulator. (One of the MPPT controllers that limits current would work but it's an expensive solution.)
Since that's probably over your head, electrical hardware-wise, relying on the vendor to help with your system design might be wise. Give them you range of flows, your system voltage, and let them know you haven't purchased a solar charge controller yet. Maybe they'll have a good solution for you, and you can just focus on the water system plumbing and system installation, which is no small task.
If you are only talking about moving 200 watts single phase and if the AC source can be kept under about 80 volts (above this these xfmers start to saturate and efficiency goes into the toilet) and the frequency up near 60 Hz, a pair of large microwave oven power xfmers could be used at the ends of a coaxial cable transmission line operating well within ratings at about 1500 VAC on the coax. Polyethylene (NOT FOAM CORE) coax in RG-59 is cheap and would work well here. This stuff can be found for 10 cents a foot. Microwave ovens to source the xfmers are free (curbside supply).
I think the safety issues for 1500 volts should preclude it's use for most DIY'ers like Jedon, not as skilled in working with high voltages as RCAVictim, though it is an interesting technical approach.
I do seem to take every opportunity to make sparks :-D
Burning down my beautiful forest would certainly offset any electrical gains though...
It is amazing all of the interesting uses I have found for salvaged microwave oven xfmers or MOT's. Not for the inexperienced though as the high voltage at considerable available current can fry you.
1500 volts is Dangerous!!! Please be careful when you are working on high voltage. Test leads for most meters are rated to one thousand volts. Cracks or cuts in test lead insulation are dangerous and leads should be replaced. Always check test leads before using them. When testing high voltage use clip on leads. Clip them on before powering up electrical equipment. And when powering up KEEP YOUR HANDS OUT OF THERE. A thing I do when I test 500 volts B+ is I put one hand in my back pocket. Never use both hands. Having one hand is grounded on a chassis and the other used to hold test leads is a dangerous thing to do. One slip could be your last. The current will go from one hand, accross the chest to the other hand.
I know rcavictim works with much higher voltage than I do. And I believe he uses good safety practice, good test equipment and lots of common sense when he is working on high voltage. I think he can give good sound advice on this subject.
If you never worked with high voltage please find a good electronic course or an electornic technician that works with high voltage that can teach you proper proceedures.
Henry
I'll spend a little extra money to stay alive personally...
Got some more snow so my hydro is progressing slowly, next step I think is to go down and check out the larger, further away site and take some real measurements.
Many people I talk to say to just use the Harris Hydro setup since it's proven and has been refined for 30 years and is local. Price sure is high though.
I was working on a 220V heat pump one time that was in a pool pump room that had water running all across the floor and I had turned off the breaker that was marked for it. I kept getting readings on my digital autoranging Fluke meter that didn't make sense so after disconnecting several components and wires I was stumped. I decided to turn the power back on to check if both legs were there and I discovered that the breakers were mismarked and that I had been working on live wires and parts while standing in water :o ! A lead wire to the Fluke had a broken conductor inside the insulation :o >:( !! I had used the meter the day before and it had worked fine! Very good thing I had good work habits as to where my hands are placed and what I touch ;) ! I always make sure not to make my body part of an electrical circut and I treat wires and machines as though they are energized even when the power is turned off! I cultivated that habit on the advice of a couple of shop teachers in high school 40 odd years ago. And now after that day I check the leads and the meter for proper operation before I check for the presence of voltage ;D ! Leland
i work around 208, 240/480 three phase with some regularity, often inside large steel cabinets
even with lock out procedures, and verification that the box is dead, i still keep one hand in my pocket when i go
poking around.
my least favorite is a piece of equipment thats panel is about 6inches off the ground requiring me to be on my knees
on damp concrete, i always put down my pressboard or a rubber mud flap to kneel on.
and i still hate it!
i don't like being bit, but i really hate seeing magic smoke escaping from my ears :o
i remember back in tech school, we worked predominately with lower voltage stuff, rarely over 120vac, but
we also had an RCA training station, it had seriously high voltages in it,,
a good friend of mine could not keep his mind on the fact that you simply must keep one hand in your hip pocket
when you go in for meter readings
seeing him thrown on the floor several times a day made it clear to all why there is the one hand rule.
for me moving up from 12/24volt dc to 48volt has been an eye opener too, you don't get bit on 12 and barely on 24 unless
you are very careless and wet, but 48vdc?? ya that is about the limit of where one wants to go when it comes to dc current
that is about where getting bit starts to get your attention in a real way.
in the alternator/tranmission/transformer/rectifier tests, my alternator is putting out 99vac off the ac terminals
it also has the modified internal rectifier bridge that i am not using in these tests, however
i decided to check the open circuit voltage on those two posts, at full operational speed and 99vac on the ac terminals
the two dc post read out 147vdc!
i think they have the potential of killing someone careless, so the alternator would have to be fitted with a rear cover with vent slots
for cooling to protect against accidental contact with both the ac terminals and certainly the dc posts.
bob g
Hi Fellas. I have just finished converting a Fisher and Paykel washing machine motor into a generator. The machine I got for nothing was one with .8mm windings. It was a 42 pole unit and I simply followed the instructions which i got off the net - heaps of helpful fellas and all info free. I was able to dispose of the remains of the washing machine slowly through the rubbish collection. The most expensive part of the operation has been the purchase of 3 x 35 amp bridge rectifiers at about $3-50 each from what I can remember and a small pot of polyeurethane to reinsulate the soldered windings. These units poke out a lot of power at very low revs and can put out 12/24/48 and up to 100 volts just on a battery drill. They would work great on a dozy old lister using a good belt reduction system and then poke the output into an invertor. They are supposed to be good for around 1.1 kw. Hell - if I can do it anyone should be able to. It aint rocket science and it's pretty much free. Check out Utube and google - heaps of info on these. Cheers.
Hi Everyone
I have been curious about these motors for a while... What washing machines have them in them?
Can they be found here in the US?
Rob
Just google ecoinnovations, a small croud in Taranaki, New Zealand. They ship cheap kits around the world. there are bound to be these machines in the states as Fisher and Paykel are having them built in Mexico for the american market. Good luck .