Hi all,
If you don't know by now...Volvo has also badged the little Shibaura both in the 2 cylinder, and the 3 cylinder. Currently the 2 is known as D1-13, and the 3 is D1-30, previously the MD2010, and MD2020/MD2030.
Lloyd
A peek at my perk/cats
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/large/peek%20at%20perkys.jpg)
Volvo manicooler for the D1-13F
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/large/manicooler%203.JPG)
Another manicooler shot
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/large/manicooler%201.JPG)
A volvo gear driven sae water pump
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/large/gear%20drive%20raw%20water%20pump.JPG)
The above images convert this co=gen to a Perk\cat/Volvo
Flywheel drive from NC Cat Nebraska, from a big-rig APU
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/large/fly%20wheel%20drive%202.JPG)
gate tenisoner also from NC Cat
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/large/belt%20tensioner%202.JPG)
lots of nice looking hardware you have there!
perhaps had i not made some many bad decision regarding women early in life, i would be working with some better stuff too!
:)
should be a nice setup once you get it all coming together.
that pulley looks like a japanese car front rotor, doesn't it?
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on February 18, 2010, 06:34:06 PM
perhaps had i not made some many bad decision regarding women early in life, i would be working with some better stuff too!
bob g
I know where you are coming from. About the time I got my x wife trained to know her place, she up and left.
Never could figure why she left me.
Quote from: Lloyd on February 18, 2010, 06:49:38 PM
Bob,
I have a few ugly women stories, nothing like trying to swim with an anchor for a necklace.
Lloyd
My x was pretty good on the boat. She was slow at learning how to anchor the boat though. After I made her tie the end of the anchor line around her ankle a few times, she learned how to use the Samson post to slow sown the boat as it drifted back on the anchor.
Never could understand why she left me.
Interesting 8 rib flywheel, could you provide details on part number and/or web site please.
Well my AC Alternator landed today, from KEI out of Dallas,Tx
It is a custom wound, as part of my remote rectifier mount. I'm expecting about 225 amps 14.5 volts dc, transferred on 8/3 shielded conductor to the three phase torrid transformer/rectifier 40 feet away.
It's just about time ti start construction on this project..just waiting on the trans/rec.
Lloyd
more
more
nice looking alternator you got there, but i have a question as to its ability to drive a transformer/ rectifier pack
it looks to be wound with very heavy wire, and few turns, which tells me it will have to spin in the range of 5krpm
to make ~12vac?
weren't they supposed to wind it for higher voltage so you could transport it via the 8/3 the 40 ft and then step down
and rectify with the transformer/rectifier pack?
can you estimate the stator turns per pole, it looks like maybe 4 or 5 turns of very heavy guage wire?
maybe i am not seeing it right in the pics?
it looks like it will make the 225amps at 14.4 just the way it is,without a stepdown transformer?
bob g
Hi Bob,
I don't have the numbers from the growler yet....but our target voltage was 130 volts phase to phase at 5500rpm. With a final output of 225 amps hot, into the bat bank.
He will email the open voltage and the load voltages/amps on Monday, he ran the machine on the growler at 4, 5, 55, 6k rpm. Once I get that info i will forward that to my trans/rec builder.
I haven't opened the machine yet, so I don't know how many windings.
But remember, he will ship me up to 2 more stators free until I get the numbers I'm after. That is part of our contract...maybe a moving R&D...but I have to tell you so far my dealings with this company have been great...so I'm expecting the best.
It is wye connected, as you can see by the the AC studs on the back....it can be reconnected as delta
Lloyd
Also forgot to note, that I have a friend that manages a plastics vacuform company...he is building a shroud that will connect to the the back of the alt, this will be connected by ducts to a seawater to air heatX, w/temp sensed pancake fans as a sort of turbo cooling.
Lloyd
Quote from: mobile_bob on April 16, 2010, 07:08:57 PM
nice looking alternator you got there, but i have a question as to its ability to drive a transformer/ rectifier pack
it looks to be wound with very heavy wire, and few turns, which tells me it will have to spin in the range of 5krpm
to make ~12vac?
I believe its 11 guage
Quoteweren't they supposed to wind it for higher voltage so you could transport it via the 8/3 the 40 ft and then step down
and rectify with the transformer/rectifier pack?
can you estimate the stator turns per pole, it looks like maybe 4 or 5 turns of very heavy guage wire?
maybe i am not seeing it right in the pics?
Well I just peered into the back with a light, and near as i can count it looks about 12 + per pole windings
Quoteit looks like it will make the 225amps at 14.4 just the way it is,without a stepdown transformer?
there is no on board rectifier, it only makes 3 phase AC. My torrid/rec will be a stepdown 4 torrids to rectifier, also rectifying the neutral.
Lloyd
i saw it had no rectifiers and also figured it to be wye connected because they brought out the neutral connection,
which was a good move.
11 gauge wire? i am almost certain you can't get that many turns in a slot?
i am really looking forward to your phase to phase voltage on that unit, i just can't see it making 130vac phase to phase
but i can't see much from the picks, this should be a very interesting project indeed
and i look forward to your reports
thanks
bob g
Hey Professor,
I'm more than happy to drive this alt down to you with a brand new Balmar 612, if you have a way to bolt it up to your system. Along with any desire to do some testing for your own. I won't likely have the rectifier for about 3-4 weeks so it's just going to sit...until I get the rectifier.
It's unlikely I would be qualified to test it to your level. My testing is going to be hook it up and start charging my 750 bank. I'm not set up to run calcs for fuel load and electrical efficiency. I will draw my bank down to a 40% state of charge and just see how many amps this will feed back to the bank during bulk charge...with my goal of 225 amps. If it doesn't hit the marks I will give the results to KEI and they'll send a modified stator...and we run it again until it hits the marks.
Lloyd
i currently don't have the capability to mount the pad mount style alternator
i can mount only the j180 style
however having two pad mount alternators of my own, one a 48vdc and the other a 52vac
i need to setup a mounting system to use to mount my alternators, and then i could also test
your too.
when i will have time for that? i am not sure.
i will take a look and let you know.
bob g
Quote from: Bruce on February 19, 2010, 12:12:11 AM
Interesting 8 rib flywheel, could you provide details on part number and/or web site please.
I wouldn't mind knowing where these pulleys come from either.
Thanks, Geno
Geno,
The pulley comes from NC CAT in Nebraska....I have the part number...i'll post it as soon as I find it again.
Bob..or any other EE math type.
I need some help on my math.
I spoke to KEI this morning, and it seems that they misunderstood my test request before they shipped the alt.
I requested phase to phase open voltages measured at 4, 5, 55, and 6k rpm.
But they only measured the phase to neutral voltage at at 6000 rpm, that voltage is 112 volt ac. He offered to re-wind a new stator and run the test, I requested, I told him I appreciate the offer but no need to exercise him.
So I found a web site, that I can't find the bookmark to now....but it gave the equation of doing the math to determine the phase to phase voltage if the phase to neutral was known...
I seem to remember that it was the sq of the 3 phases being 1.732 * the phase to neutral, so that comes up to 193.98 volts phase to phase...is that correct?
I know to solve amps by ohms law....the stator ohms are phase to neutral 3 ohms, and phase to phase 4 ohms measured static. So my question is do I need to measure the ohms while the stator is at rest(static) or do I need to measure the ohms at speed(4,5,55, and 6k rpm)???
I will take the alt to Blanchard and have them spin it to get the actual numbers, I requested...
But in the mean time any answers.
Thanks,
Lloyd
Ps...I measured the voltage of the alt and RMS, on my fluke, giving it a spin by hand, gives me a phase to phase voltage near 11.5 volts ac
3 phase watts law=
w=( Vavg * Aavg * p.f. * 1.732) / 1000 = kwats
i answered one Q.
now i need find the answer of ohms..is it static or at speed??
# The conductors connected to the three points of a three-phase source or load are called lines.
# The three components comprising a three-phase source or load are called phases.
# Line voltage is the voltage measured between any two lines in a three-phase circuit.
# Phase voltage is the voltage measured across a single component in a three-phase source or load.
# Line current is the current through any one line between a three-phase source and load.
# Phase current is the current through any one component comprising a three-phase source or load.
# In balanced "Y" circuits, line voltage is equal to phase voltage times the square root of 3, while line current is equal to phase current.
(http://www.faqs.org/docs/electric/AC/12115.png)
Lloyd
if he measured 112vac from neutral to one leg, then phase to phase is 112 x 1.73, so that is correct
the losses are not stator resistance alone, there are other factors in play, reactance drops of which frequency and amperage play
a role.
first thing i would do is take it to blanchard and have them spin it to your design rpm and see what you get at about 10vdc on the
field,
better yet try to get a graph going by measuring phase to phase AC voltage at perhaps 8vdc field, 10vdc field and 12vdc field
and also at 4krpm, 5krpm and 6krpm
if you draw up a matrix, each of these tests can be done very quickly, and the results might be useful to your transformer guy
to determine what he will need to do to get you what you need for 12vdc charging.
what i would want after rectification is about 25vdc open circuit after transformer and rectifiers, at the design speed i targeted for
and with ~8vdc on the field, that will allow for some drop and some head room with the field current.
there is so many factors to account for, and because of the way that the claw pole alternator has its way with voltage drops, it is
hard to calculate what is going to happen, at least for me.
it does look like you need about an 8:1 - 10:1 step down ratio with the transformers, that is "if" the 6krpm voltage report is correct
and it is what you want to run at, and is that at full field?
if i had to make a wager, i would bet on 8:1 step down as being in the ballpark.
based on the preliminary reported numbers from the alternator builder.
i don't know anyone else that has done what you are intent upon doing, so i don't have any data to draw from.
bob g
oops looks like you reposted before i got mine out
i had also neglect power factor (pf) as my testing has all been done with resistive loads,
but the rectifiers and the transformers will certainly skew the powerfactor as well.
at this point i think it would be best to run the matrix and fill it in with testing at blanchards
show him the matrix, and offer to write down the numbers as he runs the test, it shouldn't take
5 minutes to get all the info you want,
armed with that info, perhaps we can get an idea of how best to size everything else?
in any event i bet the transformer engineers will appreciate the matrix info as an aid to their
engineering of the transformer needed.
bob g
thank you Professor,
you know i have asked at least 8 different alt peeps, all said it can't be done... about remote rec.
then you spurred me with maybe it can be done...then you went to your own test bed and said maybe it can be done, and with some efficiency.
KEI, is the only other guy/shop that said sure we can do that...just tell me what you want...as a matter of fact we'll help you through R&D.
Then I talk with Osborn Transformer...they say no worries we can help you R&D a toroid transformer/rectifier.
i know I'm not finished..but i think that a workable system is not far off.
thanks to you and many others... i hope that this will lead to help in others co-gen projects...this concept is scalable to 24-48 volts so...we'll just wait and see.
Bob...i've said it before ...YOU ARE A HERO!
thanks,
lloyd,
Bob,
do you have the answer to the Q, about measuring stator ohms> is it static, or at speed?
i just want to know for my own knowledge....plus i want to build it into my modeling spreadsheet...so that i can compare, model against end results.
thanks
lloyd
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm (http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm)
Handy Formula to calculate the output of any generator at any given RPM.......
First off 3 thing must be known... RPM, Open voltage at that RPM and the Ohm's of the stator coil.
1. Measure the RPM
2. Measure the Open voltage at that RPM
3. Measure the Ohm's of the stator coil.
Measured RPM / Open volts = RPM per volt
To find a Desired output the formula is:
Volts + ( Amps * Ohms ) = Open Voltage ( necessary to achieve this output )
Open voltage * RPM per volt = RPM needed to achieve desired output
Example: Alternator spinning at 1500 RPM delivers an open voltage of 34.8 volts so....
1500 / 34.8 = 43.1 RPM per volt
The stator coil reading is .6 ohm
Lets say we would like 14.6 volts at 10 amps from our unit
14.6 volts + ( 10 amps * .6 ohm ) =20.6 open voltage
20.6 * 43 rpm per volt = 885.8 RPM
If you would like to know an output at a certain RPM you simply change the formula to:
RPM / RPM per volt =Open Voltage
(OpenVoltage-desiredvoltage) /ohms = Amps
Example: 885 RPM at 14.6 volts
885 / 43 = 20.58
( 20.58 - 14.6 ) / .6 = 9.97 amps
And there you have it... since, for the most part, the voltage and rpm are a constant its easy to calculate the output of any unit
bob,
You will most likely appreciate this article voltage eg a new bred http://www.embedded.com/columns/technicalinsights/171000435?_requestid=611985 (http://www.embedded.com/columns/technicalinsights/171000435?_requestid=611985)
white papre on 3phase trans formers
http://www.basler.com/downloads/3phXfmrs.pdf (http://www.basler.com/downloads/3phXfmrs.pdf)
lloyd
just some math before losses... from a TM
desired voltage 14.5 bulk charge @ 225 amps
6000 rpm / 193.98 open voltage = 30.93 volts average per phase per rpm
stator = .4 ohms phase to phase average
14.5v + (225 amps * .4 ohm stator)= 104.5 open voltage phase average
104.5 * 30.93 V per rpm = 3232 rpm estimated rpm before losses
output at 6000 rpm before losses
(open voltage - desired voltage) / ohms = amps
(193.98 - 14.5) /.4 = 448 amps @ 6000 rpm before losses
Lloyd
Just remember i'm a TM not an EE
EE = Electrical Engineer
TM = Trained Monkey
the difference between a EE and an TM is;
A EE can make a logical deduction based on his knowledge, and even do the math.
A TM can do what you teach it to do...and sometimes seek out the knowledge to deduce the math...but that doesn't mean he's right...so always refer to an EE... when a TM does the math.
Lloyd:
i use a totally different approach to design than Ed Lenz does, with his wind power generators
where he uses the resistance of the stator and factors it with rpm and open circuit voltage.
Nothing wrong with his formula for the alternators he designs and works with, and Ed is a heck of a nice
and very sharp fellow. (Ed from windstuffnow.com, i have known him for about 10 years now)
iirc, and this from memory
the resistance of the stator changes with increasing frequency (which will be perhaps 10x that of a typical windgenerator in this application)
increasing amperage, and increasing heating, along with a few other factors, which use several of these factors in some mix to form
different kinds of reactance. all this works together to form "effective resistance which is likely to be dramatically different than measured
resistance of the stator at rest.
for my applications, i have found it just so much simpler to apply the stock stator in the oem alternator at the voltage, rpm, and field current
i would like to run it at, then measure the output current that it is capable of sustaining under these parameters.
from that i can determine the units suitability as used, and i can calculate what it might be if reconfigured from delta to wye, wherein
going from delta to wye my effective voltage will increase by a factor of 1.73 and the current will decrease by a factor of 0.57.
its more or less an empirical method that will get me very close to what i need in the end.
after testing in both configuration and filling in a matrix (fixed rpm, but various field currents at various loads) i can determine a performance
profile for that particular stator in that particular alternator.
i use the particular series of alternator because of the rather large number of possible stators offered by the oem, i use primarily two different stators in testing, one is from the 175amp unit and the other from a 270amp unit, the former is wound bifilar or two in hand, the latter is wound
quadrafiler or four in hand.
the bifiilar and quadrafilar stator windings keep the eddy currents down in the turns themselves, because heavy gauge wire will have higher eddy current losses within it than 2 or 4 strands of lighter gauge wire.
after having run all the tests, and filled out all the matrix i can then determine what exactly i need to do to tweak things with a rewound stator
for my specific application, i have not got that far yet.
if and when that day comes i will order the rewound stator, run another test matrix and from those three stators, (oem 175, oem 270 and custom in both delta and wye) i should be able to then produce a set of formulas that will allow one to engineer a stator for this specific
alternator core to get what one wants with some precision.
it might be when it is all said and done the formula you listed will be applicable, however i have my doubts at this time
as the alternators exhibit some non classical behavior that is counter to what i have been told by EE's previously.
in other words i am not convinced that the classical formulas work to explain the operation of these alternators under the conditions
either you (with a transformer being fed) or by me (where i am running it a 4x original voltage).
doesn't mean that i am right, i may well be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time for that
:)
bob g
ps. RE electric who's parent company escapes me right now, (but is located in seattle) and is a competitor to blanchard
bought out a rewind facility about a year ago in california. i was told back then that after they got the transition done
they could produce stators to whatever spec i wanted.
i figure they would have to be competitive to the oem stator in price or they could not sell them, a new stator from
leece neville is about 140bucks, so i am thinking i can get a custom done for a C note.
a hundred bucks ain't bad, if one has a good idea that his spec is very close to what he needs. so...
for me i would rather determine that spec through empirical testing rather than trust some set of formula derived from
lower power, exceptionally low hz, and often aircored alternators from the windpower boys.
Thanks Professor,
I plan on doing exactly as you prescribe. I have the spreadsheet for the matrix nearly done. When I have, Todd run the alt, I will fill in the numbers...that should give me some good empirical numbers for my model. Also depending, I have 2 more custom stators, to derive numbers from, at no costs.
I just wanted to build my model prior to actual numbers, then compare to actual numbers. I actually got the formulas from the US Navel Electricians Teaching text manual, from the 3 phase sycronis alternator chapter. I suspect Ed from windstuffnow.com, may have gotten his number from the same place, as his pages on 3 phase are laid out in almost identical order. I posted his stuff so I wouldn't have to scan the navel text.
I figgerd the stator ohms changed with speed,(I just haven't been able to confirm that with all of the design texts I have been reading) and I know the other losses also increase with speed, and temp...The temp issue is one reason I designed the sea water to air heatX, for turbo cooling. The alt will see a steady diet of 30c inlet air...which should be an advantage over the normal engine room air temp, of 70-80c.
I just don't have any way to do the load testing, my little shop is more set for woodworking...plus I'm a TM not an EE, so I don't have a shop full of scopes and things.. I sure can build a nice spice rack though.
You might also give KEI a call, they have been nothing but a joy to deal with...he's old school...and more than loves to take on project out of the box...by his own statements...and they are fair and reasonable in price.
Thanks again...I will keep you posted
Lloyd
http://dl.gmseenet.org/bitstream/handle/123456789/926/GMSARN08-E26.pdf?sequence=1 (http://dl.gmseenet.org/bitstream/handle/123456789/926/GMSARN08-E26.pdf?sequence=1)
Bob,
I know this is a link that goes against your empirical design process..
but there is some that might make sense to you and others..
lloyd
most elementary but good to TM http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/75/04716144/0471614475.pdf
Lloyd:
i can't get the first link to load up,
the second link i will comment on...
notice page 18, fig 1.17 ?
that is the grandfather of the clawpole machine, the one i alluded to in the white paper.
thanks for this link as that picture of the alternator now being in a museum is much higher quality than
the original grainy B&W from the google book.
i have read every last scrap on everything i can find on alternator design, and after a while one thing becomes clear
that being there is very little new that wasn't known about alternator design back in the 1890's save for improvement in materials.
the issue i have with all the engineering as opposed to empirical testing to base my decisions or design methodology, is this...
i am constrained with the built in compromises taken by the oem, and as such i cannot find out several key factors that might be
useful in altering a design.
i have no idea what the magnetic properties of the stator are, no idea of the stator inductance, the reactance of the machine
and a variety of other things that might be useful, and...
even if i knew, there is nothing i can do to change most of these things in any meaningful way, i can alter inductance to some extent
but in doing so i also alter the output voltage and generally opposite to what i need. reducing inductance is useful in reduction of reactance
but to do so requires fewer turns of copper, which reduces voltage, so i have to turn the unit faster which raises the frequency
frequency has the same effects on reactance drops as does inductance, so you see you end up chasing a problem all over the page to no
real effect.
the reason i mention this is the text and formula will lead one to believe that the predominant losses in a clawpole alternator are the reactance drops, of which increases in frequency (rpm) and inductance (more turns of copper) are the dominant factors, well...
in my testing i have found this not to be the case with the alternators i am testing, the dominant factor is current, so i have to go back and ask
why this is?
it comes down to this, the formulas that the EE use in classic alternator design are designed to explain the operation of more common
60hz alternators that have both laminated stator and rotor poles, apparently the solid clawpole rotor, the higher frequency, and lack of iron
in the stator core (as compared to a typical 60hz machine) all conspire to skew the outcome to where the classic formulas don't quite work
out in real world operation.
so that leaves me with having to explore the operation parameters of the alternators i have available, develop matrix's and run the tests, then
afterward crunch all the data in an effort to develop some formulas that explain the results.
so far i have not found any text on the design of clawpole alternators running at 400-600hz with the attending formulas
if you come across some let me know
bob g
Bob,
I'm not questioning your design style...seat of the pants usually beats books sense everyday of the week. I am hoping that i will learn something by running things parallel, pre calc & real world, in comparison. i might be a trained monkey, but I have never been able to accept that something works...I always have to know why & how...other wise I am very frustrated.
The navy text manual I have is 400hz design of a six & 12 pole.. it has the same numbers that I posted earlier off your friends page. Also I might start looking at the aircraft, bc they also use 400-600hz.
One thing I read is the wye connected will result in higher current at lower rpm, that's why many diesel engines use a wye connected. I think in both our cases that can be a good thing...the kw of a machine doesn't change by the way it's connected...
So if we connect wye out to delta delta on the transformer, it seems that, that is the ideal situation..at least in my case.
Lloyd
Try this re-link to the one that wouldn't load http://dl.gmseenet.org/bitstream/handle/123456789/926/GMSARN08-E26.pdf
(http://dl.gmseenet.org/bitstream/handle/123456789/926/GMSARN08-E26.pdf)
Lloyd:
i finally got it to load after about an hour, i gotta get ahold of comcast and get my cable connection sorted out!
as for my way of "injuneerun", well it is really no different than that of the early developers or engineers of any product
wherein they run all sort of test, then from those test results compile formula that explains what there results are,
they then use those formula to design and build the next generation, then redo all the testing again to see if the results of the
new machine match what the formula predicted, if so then they have a useful formula to go forward and work with, on the other hand
sometimes things don't come out as predicted by the formula and thy are left to sort out why. was the formula flawed? or was there
some other factor in play that they had not accounted for? or is there something other that they overlooked? etc.
this is how the formulas that we use daily came to be, from empirical testing, save for those formulas that are theoretical in nature, those
are called oddly enough "theoretical laws" until such time a method of testing can be determined that will either prove or disprove the theory.
if proven then the theoretical law, becomes a law or formula. at least that is how i understand it.
just yesterday i watched an interesting show on the "science" channel on the development of the orion lander projects heat shields
they had the engineers of all stripes modeling on their puters all facets of the project, incredible amounts of puter power and guys with
more smarts in one finger than i have in my whole body working on the problem,, using formulas laid out from empirical data, testing and results
from the appollo project 40 plus years ago. Then it was up to the test engineers to arrive at a test to determine if all the engineering was correct.
they ran the test using superheated nitrogen at 10kpsi firing past a 7" model in a vacuum chamber, ran the test only to find that they needed to go back and rework those old formulas to fit the results they were getting with the new stuff.
in a related test the ceramic coating started to burn away at 5k degree's when the formulas said it was to be good for twice that.
so the moral to my diatribe?
if i were to want to design from the ground up a turbo alternator that was 2 pole 3600rpm of several hundred kva or higher, i would definitely use
all the data, engineering and formula's from the books i could find. even for a 4 pole 1800rpm i would do so.
but i am working with 12 pole 500hz clawpole alternators (now) and previously 16 pole 600hz alternators, and i don't have any design text to work with for the clawpole alternators, and...
even if i did i would also need some very specific and in most cases proprietary information on materials used by the oem in order to effectively
use the formulas provided for clawpole machines.
i am not saying that working up front with established formulas are bad, because they are not, but
i need clawpole alternator formulas for 400-600 hz machines,
i need to know from the oem what the magnetic properties of the stator steel are,
i need to know flux densities,
some technical drawing would be useful, etc
none of which i have access to, so
failing that i have to reengineer the product via empirical testing, to get as many data points as realistically possible, so that
i can then go back and see if i can derive formula or see if the existing formula for other machines explain the results of all
that testing.
in the end one of two things will become apparent, either existing formulas will be shown to be effective for engineering clawpole alternators
(i feel this is unlikely) ,or
i will come up with an altered formula that better explains the machines operation under the conditions i am running it at, which will allow me to
make a series of calculations as to what changes will end in a result i am after.
this seems like a solid approach, and is one i have used numerous times when faced with an oem that will not release technical info on their products and where i cannot find text outlining the specific design of the product i am interested in.
i once spent about 100 hrs reverse engineering a drive module of a koyo/automation direct programmable logic controller, because the
oem would not release a schematic or theory of operation. it took a while but i got er done, only to be asked if i would sign a "first right of refusal agreement" with the oem if i were to develop a product based on their plc (which i refused to do, because after spending a hundred hours
without their help i figured they now needed me worse than i needed them)
i digress only to illustrate that what i do is nothing new, it has been done since the beginning of time.
also i will leave you with this
in any formula or rather many formulas there are factors which are called "constants", what i am concerned with is the possibility that
the "constants" used in the formulas for the design of the clawpole type alternators might be different than those of more common
60hz machines. i don't know how else to explain why i can get results that are not predicted by the EE i have talked to. i can only assume that
there is something different about the some factor of the formula and that is likely a constant changes value somewhere.
in transformer design there is a constant that is "4" if the power is a pure sinewave, and the constant changes from "4" to "4.4" if the power is square wave. that factor alone can make a huge difference in the design of a transformer, so basically if one mistakenly assumed that he should use the 4 instead of 4.4, he might get a unit that does not work as designed and he would be left scratching his head and wondering why.
anyway, if you come across any reference material on the design of automotive clawpole design alternators i would dearly love to get my hands on it.
bob g
ARMY TM 9-6115-464-34 AIR FORCE TO 35C2-3-445-2 NAVY NAVFAC P-8-624-34
Some 400-600hz mixed
http://www.tpub.com/content/dieselgenerators/TM-9-6115-464-34/index.htm (http://www.tpub.com/content/dieselgenerators/TM-9-6115-464-34/index.htm)
(http://www.tpub.com/content/dieselgenerators/TM-9-6115-464-34/img/TM-9-6115-464-34_27_1.jpg)
Hi Bob,,
Just back from Blanchard, Todd ran the alt, but the max rpm he could run is 5000. Also he can''t adjust the field voltage...only the field current. He also said it didn't think it wise to exceed 8 amps on the field, so I need to contact KEI and find out what the max field current is on this alt.
So these are the only numbers I could get.
rpm field 12v/5.5 amps current phase to phase voltage AC
3000 5.5 amps 119.4 rms
4000 5.5 amps 161.0 rms
5000 5.5 amps 194.0 rms
It looks like if I want a full matrix, I will need to have KEI rewind a machine that they can run and fill in the matrix to get the full grid.
Lloyd
Just talked with Glen @ KEI, he's going to rewind an alternator and give me the numbers to fill in my excel spreadsheet above.
I also got some specific info on the the windings both rotor and stator.
The rotor is wound 401 turns 17 guage, and 2 ohms cold. Max voltage on the rotor field is 18 volts.
The stator is wound 2 in hand 12 gauge, 1st in hand is 30 turns, 2nd in hand 24 turns for a total of 54 turns per phase, he was at McDonlads with his kids and couldn't remember the ohms of the stator phase. So he will also give me the stator ohms once the new machine is wound.
Lloyd
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/large/SwitchModeRegulator.jpg)
The Lundell alternator is the most common power generation device used in cars. It is a wound-field three-phase synchronous generator containing an internal three-phase diode rectifier and voltage regulator.
The maximum alternator output is limited by heating of the rotor and stator windings and by magnetic saturation of the machine. As shown in Figure 2, conventional Lundell alternators are limited to about 2kW. The efficiency of these alternators is about 40 to 55%.
2 THEORY
2.1 Alternator Electrical Model
Figure 5 shows a simple alternator model with a SMR. The stator is modelled as a Y-connected three-phase sinusoidal voltage source with each phase including a leakage inductance. The SMR is essentially a boost converter following a rectifier. The SMR acts a DC/DC converter which allows the effective DC link voltage seen by the machine to be reduced from the actual DC link voltage, VDC, to (1-d)VDC, at a duty-cycle d. This extra control flexibility over an uncontrolled rectifier allows more power to be extracted from the alternator over a wide speed range. This allows the SMR to be modelled as a standard rectifier with variable output voltage. With a SMR, the field current can be kept constant at its maximum value as the output voltage regulation is done by duty-cycle control.
The SMR can be modelled by the machine phase equivalent circuit, as seen in Figure 6. This model is based on the following given assumptions [5], which allow the modelling of the rectifier and voltage source as a variable three-phase resistor:
• The rectifier forces the alternator phase currents to be strictly in phase with the phase voltages of the alternator,
• The phase currents continue to be sinusoidal, despite the non-sinusoidal voltage waveforms. where E is the back-EMF, Ls is the phase inductance, Rs is the phase stator resistance; and RL is the effective load resistance. In addition Vo and Io are the alternator output voltage and current, respectively. This model ignores saliency effects, iron losses and magnetic saturation.
http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~aupec/aupec04/papers/PaperID82.pdf (http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~aupec/aupec04/papers/PaperID82.pdf) the White Paper
_________________________
--------------
I'm talking about the TEST BED, not sure about the SRM..yet
I predict that lundell efficiency will be most effected by cooling/heat extraction, so far everything I read leads to marginal gains...but one thing I have found as mention in every WP I read is heat.
When speaking with Glen today at KEI, he suggested that to find the losses of the stator and rotor was put each in an oven and start heating them, measure the ohms in ten degrees data points, he suggested the R would increase liner almost equal to the temp rise.
There are other associated losses eddy, saturation, hys..... , but he also suggested that each of those losses are compounded by heat...
As an marine electrician...I have to de-rate the amplitude of a wire, based on environmental temp, as well as current and again for number of current carrying conductors in a bundle....so this is all starting to come home to roost.
Glen, also said ...Lloyd I think you have the proverbial "birds nest on the ground" when I elaborated on my seacooler for my project...a steady diet of 48F turbo air temp.
Lloyd
first of all i would like to state that on one hand i am not crazy about the pdf from australia, because it is based on and a repetition
of perrault and caliskan's earlier work at MIT, however it is attributed properly and credit is given to them.
most all of the data, graphs and charts are from the MIT paper.
what i would like to direct your attention to (along with anyone else that might be interested) is figure 16
all of the curves are based on testing of a single 12volt nominal alternator at various output voltages being the only variable
(all else being the same)
as you can see the alternator running at 6krpm producing 14volts will make about 1.75 kwatts, and consumes about 4.5kwatts input power
1.75/4.5= ~39% efficient which is pretty typical and dreadful in my opinion, however
the same alternator running at 6krpm and 42volts will make about 4kwatts while consuming the same 4.5kwatts input power
4/4.5=88.9% efficiency, which is fantastic in my opinion
(now my numbers might be off just a bit, because of graph interpretation of values, but you get the idea there is a dramatic increase
in efficiency)
it should also become clear that allowing the same alternator to run at even higher voltages, such as 57.6 for a 48vdc nominal battery
would run at even higher efficiency.
the reality in real life is a bit different that illustrated, the spread using a similar alternator to that which you are using from leece neville
will start at about 3kwatt at 14 volts and return around 45-50% efficiency, and if allowed to run at 57.6 for a 48volt bank will go well
over 7kwatts output and well into the low to mid 80's for efficiency.
in my opinion your application should actually be in the mid to upper 80's if it is matched well with the transformers, with the alternator
being allowed to run ~120vac feeding the toroid transformers to do the step down,
the toroids should get you into the 92% range i would expect, so
my guess would be a mid 80s' lets call it 85% alternator and 92% transformer pack for an adjusted efficiency of about
.85 x .92% = 78% efficiency
so in the end a move up from 45-50% efficiency to perhaps 78% is a dramatic improvement in efficiency!
and that should be the results of all your work.
bob g
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on April 21, 2010, 11:02:29 PM
in my opinion your application should actually be in the mid to upper 80's if it is matched well with the transformers, with the alternator
being allowed to run ~120vac feeding the toroid transformers to do the step down,
the toroids should get you into the 92% range i would expect, so
my guess would be a mid 80s' lets call it 85% alternator and 92% transformer pack for an adjusted efficiency of about
.85 x .92% = 78% efficiency
so in the end a move up from 45-50% efficiency to perhaps 78% is a dramatic improvement in efficiency!
and that should be the results of all your work.
bob g
Dear Professor,
If and
when this project meets the pavement, my end results will be almost 100% reflection of your work (well that is if i don't f*6K it up). All I did is pose a question, which YOU stepped up and inspired me to proceed.
THANK YOU...no matter the outcome.
Lloyd
A method of calculating torque of a Lundell-type synchronous generator is disclosed
http://osdir.com/patents/Electricity-generator/Method-calculating-power-generating-torque-synchronous-generator-07375500.html
I like tidbits
& some meat & potatos
lloyd
#
BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION
# 1. Technical Field of the Invention
# The present invention relates to a method of calculating power generating torque of a synchronous generator, especially, a vehicular Lundell-type synchrounous generator.
# 2. Description of the Related Art
# In recent years, attempts have heretofore been made to reduce the amount of fuel, such as gasoline, to be injected into an engine with a view to achieving the improvement in fuel consumption. To this end, the engine is controlled in a pinpoint precision to rotate in stability. In the meanwhile, an electric energy needed for the engine for safety and comfort purposes is rising year to year and a generator (alternator), connected to the engine, has been increasing in size. This results in an issue with the occurrence of an increase in torque of the generator accompanied by instable rotation of the engine. For instance, under circumstances where large electric load is turned on to rapidly increase the electric energy of the generator, a drop occurs in a rotational speed of the engine with a consequence of engine stop.
# To address such an issue, research and development work has heretofore been taken to provide technique of conducting integrated management of electrical loads through the use of a communication system inside the vehicle for predicting power generating torque to control the amount of fuel to be injected to the engine with a view to achieving stability in engine rotation.
# However, even if the related art practice has enabled the prediction of the amount of generated electric power (electric current in generated electric power), a difficulty has been encountered in accurately calculating power generating torque on this occasion. Power generation torque represents a turning force equivalent to energy to be consumed. In this case, energy to be consumed is a sum of generated electric power and the amount of loss dissipated in heat. For example, even with output currents at the same value, variation takes place in a coil resistance value depending on surrounding temperatures with the resultant change in heating value. Thus, a need arises for accurately obtaining the amount of losses of the generator depending on an operating status of the generator and usage environment thereof, otherwise no success can be expected in calculating power generating torque.
# Further, the amount of losses of the generator is broken down into copper loss, rectification loss, excitation loss, iron loss and mechanical loss. Among these, iron loss particularly consumed in an iron core results from hysteresis loss and eddy-current loss in mixture and, hence, a calculation formula becomes complex with the resultant difficulty in identifying the cause of losses. This results in deterioration in precision of calculation results. Moreover, a remarkable increase occurs in a time interval needed for calculation and it has been conceived that no computation of such factors is possible with a computer Installed on the vehicle.
# Therefore, attempts have taken to preliminarily assume the environment for the generator to be used and prepare a map covering a whole range of conceivable combinations of factors while actually measuring parameters such as temperatures or the like and retrieving target torque from the map. However, this results in a need for preparing torque data in a multidimensional approach in conformity to various statuses and, thus, considerable efforts are needed for measurements. This causes a remarkable increase in a volume of data with the resultant increase in a retrieving time interval and another issue arises in a difficulty of processing these data in an ECU. Moreover, a large number of sensors are needed for measuring input values of the parameters and cause an increase in production cost. Also, if the volume of data and the amount of inputs are restricted, then, another issue arises with a difficulty in obtaining high precision.
#
SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
# The method of calculating electric power generating torque was established only by inputting the rotational speed N of the generator and current IB in generated power in a manner expressed below.
# First, excitation current of a rotor is computed. Excitation current of the rotor varies in substantially proportion to output current IB.
# During operation of the generator with the maximum current Ifull for each rotation, since excitation current takes the maximum excitation current Iffull current can be computed based on the proportionate relationship in an equation expressed as
# If = If full · ( I B I full ) . ( 1 )
# Next, gross current Igross is computed in an equation expressed as.
# I gross = kI B + If = ( 1 + If full I full ) I B . ( 2 )
# Subsequently, DC/AC conversion is executed.
# In general, a rate k for conversion from IDC to an alternating current root-mean-square value IAC is expressed by a relational expression as IDC=kIAC (3).
# The conversion rate k is probable to be slightly deviated due to distortion of a waveform and expressed in a theoretical figure of k=1.35.
# Current Ist flowing through the stator corresponds to a gross alternating current value and is expressed as
# I st = 1 k ( 1 + If full I full ) I B . ( 4 )
# Hereunder, respective losses are calculated in sequence. Since a total sum of losses is finally obtained, no order of calculating losses has an adverse affect.
# (a) Copper Loss:
# When using the alternating current root-mean-square value of the stator, copper loss becomes a total sum of heat generated for respective phases and expressed as Wst=mIst2R (5) (WAC: copper loss of a stator R: resistance per phase m: number of phases). Resistance of the stator varies depending on temperatures and, so, a need arises for predicting the temperature depending on the magnitude of output current. Calculation is executed this time for each rotational speed based on a predicted value expressed as
# T = 140 ( I R I full ) 2 + T o ( 6 ) (Wfull: full output for each rotation IB: output current to be calculated).
# Upon estimating such a temperature, a resistance value can be estimated as
# R = ρ + T ρ + T o R o ( 7 ) (To: initial temperature, Ro: initial resistance, ρ: coefficient), where ρ represents an individual value depending on a temperature of each metal and is expressed as the coefficient of copper in the present embodiment as ρ=234.5.
# Substituting Equation (6) to Equation (7) to newly organize the coefficient gives R=(k1+k2IB2)RO (8).
# Substituting this Equation (8) to Equation (5) to reorganize Equations (1) to (7) gives
# W st = m { 1 k ( 1 + If full I full ) } 2 I B 2 ( k 1 + k 2 I B 2 ) R 0 . ( 9 )
# Further, reorganizing this Equation with the coefficient gives Wst=αIB2(k1+kIB2) (10). Thus, calculation can be executed in computation using a square value of IB.
# (b) Rectification Loss:
# Output current to be converted to DC current flows two times through an earth-site and a B-site to take an average value of IB and can be computed in a manner expressed as
# W rec = 2 Vdi ( I B + If ) = 2 Vdi ( 1 + If full I full ) I B . ( 11 )
# (c) Excitation Loss:
# Excitation current is requisite and a product of excitation current and voltage results in excitation loss. As excitation current is small, excitation voltage is also small and, after all, excitation loss is assumed by an Equation expressed as
# W rot = V f If - V D C ( I B I full ) · If full ( I B I full ) = V D C If full ( I B I full ) 2 . ( 12 )
# (d) Mechanical Loss:
# Mechanical loss can be approximated only through power generation frequency N and, hence, is obtained in polynomial Equation expressed below. Here, a 2nd-term can be expressed as =0 in conformity to the degree of a need in precision of a torque calculation value. Wmech={γ·f+ε·f2} (13), where γ and ε represent coefficients and f represents a rotational speed.
# (e) Iron Loss:
# From experiment data in the past, it has been predicted that with the Lundell-type synchronous generator, iron loss is proportionate to an output current value. This is predicted because a synthesized magnetic flux is distorted due to reacting magnetic flux resulting from output current and an iron core of a Lundell-type rotor is made of core formed in a non-laminated structure in general practice to be apt to cause the occurrence of eddy current.
# A basic principle of iron loss (loss in an iron core) occurring at a maximal current Ifull for each rotation of the rotor is supposed to have a correlation with hysteresis loss and eddy current loss and predicted to take functions of a first power and a square of a frequency. Given the above, Equation (14) is selected.
# Using a regression curve resulting from the experimental results determined α and β.
# W core = { α · f + β · f 2 } I B I full ( 14 ) (α, β: coefficients, f: a frequency in power generation, IB: output current).
# With the present embodiment, α, β were set as α=63 and β=3. Based on such setting, computation was conducted. Here, iron loss is compared to that of the related art practice.
# In the related art practice, a calculation formula of iron loss is generally expressed as Wcore=B2{σHf+σεd2f2}U (15) (σH: coefficient of hysteresis loss, σE: coefficient of eddy current, d: plate thickness of a sheet, U: a total weight of iron).
# Further, it is a general practice to alter coefficients of a thickness portion of a stator core on a rear side thereof and a teeth portion in the same Equation for calculation.
# The magnetic flux density B varies depending on a rotational speed, a voltage and an output current value.
# In particular, an inner voltage Equation, involving a component corresponding to a drop, is expressed as Vi=√{square root over ((VO+RIAC)2+(XIAC)2)}{square root over ((VO+RIAC)2+(XIAC)2)} (16).
# Converting this inner voltage to the amount of magnetic fluxes gives
# ϕ l = V l 2.22 P 2 T 120 rpm × 10 - 3 . ( 17 )
# Dividing the amount of magnetic fluxes by a magnetic flux path cross-sectional area S results in the magnetic flux density as expressed
# B = ϕ l S . ( 18 )
# Substituting the magnetic flux density B to Equation (15) allowed iron loss to be obtained.
# The calculation needs to execute large numbers of steps using complicated equations as required in the calculation stated above. Also, such a calculation has a low precision with the resultant power generating torque in an increased discrepancy from a correct value.
yumm meat
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7375500/fulltext.html
DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF PREFERRED EMBODIMENTS
# An engine, shown in FIG. 1, drives a vehicular generator (alternator) via a belt. The generator (alternator) 1 generates an output converted to a DC power and then supplied to a battery and electrical loads of a vehicle. The generator 1 is controlled to provide a power output with an output voltage at an appropriate value in response to a detected voltage of the battery to which the electrical loads are connected in normal practice. A computation device 2 is placed to compute information indicating a torque for power generation (power generating toque) from information given from the generator 1.
# An engine controller ECU 3 retrieves, from the computation device 2, information indicative of a power generating torque produced by the generator 1 depending on the need and determines the amount of fuel to be injected to the engine at a rate controlled in view of the power generating torque information, thereby achieving stability in the rotation of the engine.
# Next, a method of calculating a torque is described below. An IG (ignition) terminal of a regulator (not shown) in the generator 1 detects a vehicular key switch being turned on. Then, a torque calculation program is progressively executed. As shown in FIG. 1, the computation device 2 is supplied with an output current value IB and a rotational speed N from the generator 2. A rotary sensor (not shown) directly retrieves the rotational speed.
# The computation device 2 executes the computation based on such inputs to provide power generating torque information as an output.
# FIG. 2 shows a flowchart of a basic sequence of executing torque calculation. Output current and rotational speed are taken and using these information allowed calculations on an output (W) and loss (W), upon which the computation is executed to obtain a demanded drive power (W) equivalent to a sum of the output (W) and loss (W). Since the rotational speed is input, the computation device 2 can calculates torque based on a value of the rotational speed and drive power to provide a calculation result as an output.
# Hereunder, a detail description is given of a method of calculating the amount of loss with reference to FIG. 2.
# First, upon receipt of calculation command signal, the operation is executed to generate electric power while a flow of the present calculation starts. The current sensor provides the output current IB and the rotary sensor provides the rotational speed N. Also, the rotational speed may be extracted based on an output frequency of an alternating current voltage of the generator.
# In step 102, the operation is executed to compute maximal current Ifull of product information based on a value of the rotational speed N using an approximation formula. This value may be extracted from a map. Also, maximal excitation current Ifull is preliminarily set as product information.
# First, in step 103, the operation is executed to compute excitation current of a rotor.
# Excitation current If of the rotor is obtained by Equation (12) as expressed
# If = If full · ( I B I full ) .
# In the next step 104, gross current Igross is computed in a formula expressed as
# I gross = I D C + If = ( 1 + If full I full ) I B
# Subsequently, in step 105, AC conversion is executed.
# In step 106, copper loss is calculated based on Equation (19) expressed as Wsi=αIB2(k1+k2IB2)
# In succeeding step 107, rectification loss is calculated using Equation (17) as
# W rec = 2 Vdi ( 1 + If full I full ) I B .
# In the next step 108, excitation loss is computed in a formula expressed as
# W rot = V D C If full ( I B I full ) 2 .
# In step 109, mechanical loss is calculated in a formula expressed as Wmech={γ·f+ε·f2}.
# In succeeding step 110, iron loss is calculated based on Equation (19) as expressed as
# W core = { α · f + β · f 2 } I B I full
# In step 111, output power is obtained in a formula expressed as Wout=VBIB.
# In step 112, a required input (W) is obtained as a total sum of the factors expressed as Win=Wout+Wst+Wrec+Wrot+Wmech+Wcore.
# In step 113, the above factors are converted to Tgen=(Wout+Wst+Wrec+Wrot+Wmech+Wcore)/(2πN/60).
# In step 114, a calculation result is output.
# Thereafter, the operation stands ready until a subsequent calculation command appears in step 115 and upon receipt of the command, the above steps are repeatedly executed again.
Lloyd:
you keep trying to stuff this crap into your head and it is going to explode!
(in this case "crap" does not mean useless info but rather complex and perhaps inapplicable info)
i say this because i am often ridiculed for making things overly complex and am no fan of KISS at all cost.
here is my point, in an earlier post you posted about SMR, switch mode rectifier or controlled rectification.
i have long been a proponent of such for use with windgenerators, going back about 10 years now, only recently
has there been interest among the windpower boys, however they for the most part although seeing the value
lose interest because of the added complexity of the electronics.
they really could benefit from such technology because of the variable nature of their power source, and the need of the
blade set to run in a rather narrow speed range in order to reap maximum efficiency.
this same theory of operation is being applied with computer controlled alternators in the automotive industry because of the
variable speed nature of the power source and the desire to maximize efficiency of the alternator over that broad rpm range.
basically the smr system works like a transmission with an infinite number of gears, allowing for a matching of power to load
over all anticipated operating parameters.
it is my belief that we really don't need this technology, because
we are running at a fixed speed (although you might be different because of the variable speed nature of your prime mover? or are you driving the alternator with a dedicated engine? i have long since forgotten the specifics in your case)
we can optimize the alternator to produce the requisite or desired power, at a fixed speed, and use the balmar to finish of the load matching to the batteries (which it does remarkably well with the "amp manager")
the next test for you that would likely give you all the info needed for the transformer engineers, is to load test the 3phase AC output of that stator at the speed you want to run it at, at about 6amps field current (i mention 6amps because i am relatively certain your rotor can handle 7amps max, so there will be some margin of safty)
i would apply a 3phase AC load onto the alternator and see what the output voltage drops to at that field current that provides about 30amps from the alternator, i am thinking that maybe at 6krpm and 6amps field at about 120vac phase to phase you should get 30amps without much problem. if so then a 10:1 step down transformer pack of suitable power capacity should net you over the 250amps you are looking for.
although i might still go for 8 or 9:1 step down so i know i have enough headspace to make the required voltage for charging, giving up a bit of amperage which should still leave you close to 220amps or better.
now for a load bank, let me know if you would like to come down to tacoma, there is a salvage yard down here that has a large batch of wire wound power resistors that i think would work well for testing, and they sell for about 2 bucks a lb or so.
three of those would make up a load bank that would work well for your application i would think.
bob g
Bob,
I just started my research on the SMR...so don't have any conclusions...My initial thought was that it may bypass the need of the step-down transformer...I don't know enough to make that decision.
But I just got off the phone with Osbourn Transformer, we spent about 45 min. and have specked out a proof of concept transformer, which will include 3 taps on both sides per phase to allow for some margin of tinkering during testing.
I will be running at fixed speed, during bulk charge cycle. Also Glen at KEI said I could put a max of 18 volts on the rotor all day, so that works out to about 9 amps at 2 ohm rotor cold.
My numbers are based on 5.5 amps cold, Osborn suggested that we work on 7.5 amps to give some over head.
They will start winding the transformer/rectifier tomorrow...but I have one more task, they want the ohms per foot, and the inductance of the conductor cable for the high-voltage side, to run losses prior to transformer. So I have to get a hold of American Cable to get those numbers, this morning.
Bob, you bet I'm almost ready to come to Tacoma...as soon as the transformer/rectifier lands in Seattle, which will be by the end of next week.
Thanks again professor, if you want to get your testing hat ready.
Lloyd
Just off the phone with Hurley Wire Co...
I now have sourced the three phase cable...it will be 6-4 shielded 400hz SO cable. It is commonly known as jet starter cable.
Osbourn was able to get the ohms per 1k foot, along with the inductance, and impedance.
Now they are ready to wind the trans/rec.
Lloyd
how much do they want per foot for that cable?
bet they don't give it away!
but i guess all copper cable is expensive anymore, regardless of the intended use.
bob g
bob,
This is a link to the 3phase 400hz cable https://edeskv2.belden.com/Products/index.cfm?event=showproductdetail&partid=1650 (https://edeskv2.belden.com/Products/index.cfm?event=showproductdetail&partid=1650)
As it turns out the big difference is the shielding, a look at the NEC show that do to the skin effects a cabe to be properly sized in amplitude goes next up...so what i originally planned was a 8-4 cable has to be a 6-4...I might still be able to use a 8-4 but the amp potential say I need #6, even though with the losses and heat tha alt isn't going to produce it's paper potential.
O well I'm use to up sizing cable the fractional cost is marginal at best to maintain a good V-drop %
Lloyd
PentodePress has resistance, inductance, and reactance: http://pentodepress.com/calculator/wire-inductance.html (http://pentodepress.com/calculator/wire-inductance.html)
From http://www.prodigy-pro.com/diy/index.php?topic=31900.0 (http://www.prodigy-pro.com/diy/index.php?topic=31900.0) which has a great topic discussing resistance, inductance, and reactance.
Lloyd
this is just a link to some automation control parts http://raise.rockwellautomation.com/catalog/_0.asp?onKil=http://www.ab.com/raise (http://raise.rockwellautomation.com/catalog/_0.asp?onKil=http://www.ab.com/raise)
and this link to the military service education publications http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.tpub.com&q=alternator&sa=Search&sitesearch=www.tpub.com&client=pub-8029680191306394&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BLH%3A50%3BLW%3A700%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tpub-products.com%2Findex.2.jpg%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tpub.com%2F%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en (http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.tpub.com&q=alternator&sa=Search&sitesearch=www.tpub.com&client=pub-8029680191306394&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BLH%3A50%3BLW%3A700%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tpub-products.com%2Findex.2.jpg%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tpub.com%2F%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en)
3phase basics alts/trans http://www.elighttraining.com/files/ag4.htm (http://www.elighttraining.com/files/ag4.htm)
Bob,
And others interested in lundell alts this link http://www.tpub.com/content/armyordnance/OD1003/OD10030027.htm (http://www.tpub.com/content/armyordnance/OD1003/OD10030027.htm) is the military education on the basics of a lundell brushless induction alt.
it might be to early to start adding a load dump to my little co-gen project.
but it's not to early to at least think about it.
this looks like a viable option http://www.chromalox.com/catalog/resources/C%20overview.pdf (http://www.chromalox.com/catalog/resources/C%20overview.pdf) my original plan was to add a 12 volt immersion heater to my system, as a way to keep the gen loaded, once the bulk state of charge was reached.
now i am starting to think that I can use a 3 phase load dump, by pass the trans/rec..which would take a load off the diodes.
as a matter of fact, I'm thinking that a proper 3 phase heater might make more sense, than adding a separate diesel fired boiler to my system...the boiler burns about 2.5 liters per hr for 50k btu, which is about 10-15k btu larger than I need at full run 20 f outside temp.
my little perky\cat/volvo burns about 1 litter per hr at it's peak load efficiency, by capturing the waste heat, and adding a 3 phase boiler sized to the out put of my alt...I think I can produce all the heat I need, and keep the perky-cat running at peak...that's less fuel than the d-boiler...and capital investment to a d-boiler is about 2.5K...which is about twice what I can buy the 3 phase boiler.
Lloyd
as odd as it may seem i am seriously considering the addition of electric baseboard heaters for just that purpose
there will be times in the winter that i can use the additional load to reduce warmup time, to fill in between load cycles
and when the heat would be useful in the house.
baseboard heaters are relatively cheap, take up little space and do a remarkable job at warming up a room fairly quickly
and fill in the gaps nicely when needed.
bob g
Hi Bob.
Baseboards are an excellent source of heat..maybe not the most efficient..but done right..I think they are sound.
By the way the cable price is $8.20 a foot my price...a few a bucks a foot more than I pay for type 3 tinned marine 4/0 cable...the beauty is, instead of 4 4/0 cables running 35 feet X 4 = 140 feet, I will be running jet starter cable 35 feet, saving 3 times the price in cable, or $525.00 usd, that should go most of the way for the trans/rec.
Bob, and Group
In my conceptualization of my co-gen...primary it's a bat charger through bulk state. The co-gen side is when there is a heat demand above and beyond the heat recovery during bulk charge.
So I had idealized that the I would have a 12 volt(dump load) immersion heater/s in my secondary heat storage tank.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/large/Hydronics.jpg)
Then I had the bright idea of switching to a 3-phase immersion heater linked above. My concept was, once bulk state was reached, the system would dump to the the 3-phase domestic boiler.
After sleeping on it for a day or 2....I had an epiphany(usually those are good things and have helped me solve many a problem)....
Once bulk state is achieved, by design the field current is cut to reduce output of the alt...that's good for bat banks...but not so good for my efficiency of the overall system....and the 3-phase immersion heater will be only anemic at best...the engine won't be running at it's most efficient, bc of the the light load.
Now I can add a switch to divert the full power away from the bat, to the heater, but I won't be able to continue into absorption/float. The more I thought about this, I realized it would effect the 12 volt dump load same as the 3-phase dump load.
So now it looks like control to reach maximum efficiency as a co-gen is going to require more...it may be simply adding a second balmar controller to run from a switch during dump load, or a silicon switching system to use a single controller.
Or it may require a SMR switch mode rectifier, with an addition of an exciter/field regulation circuit to allow the alt to power a 3-phase buss...and let the SMR control the charge cycle to the bat, irrespective of the alt 3-phase output buss voltage after bulk charge???
I think I'll have to sleep on this a few more days...I will awaken periodically to check this forum...in the event someone else has thought about this and has resolved the issue.
Lundell...the good, bad, and ugly...but still possible the best bat charger.
Anyone have any thoughts or epiphanies...please post.
Lloyd
here is what i would look into if i were you
you ideally would want to switch the 3phase from the transfomer rectifier assy to a heater/dump load
for that i would use a reversing contactor, maybe a size 2 would be adequate
they are designed for reversing 3 phase motors, but there is no reason why one cannot back feed the three phase supply
into the lower output terminals (motor) and take the power off of the two inputs (after removing the jumpers used for motor reversing)
and use one of the inputs which is now an output to go to the trans/rect unit and the other input (which is now an output) to go to the dump load.
this would allow for an isolated control that is electrically and mechanically interlocked, the reversing contactors can be found on ebay quite reasonably
if you watch for them.
that leaves how to control the reversing contactor, you can do it manually with a toggle switch or one could use a small current relay that has its coil in series with the field wire to the alternator, by careful adjustment the current relay could provide a logic drive to initiate a switch over when the field current dropped to a designed low limit.
there might also be a post on the balmar that goes hot or grounds when the controller goes to float? i can't remember for sure on that one. if so
it could be used as a logic drive to control the reversing contactor via a buffer circuit of some sort, either transistor or relay.
then there is this possibility if you are good with electronics
you could use a thermocouple such as an ispro exhaust pyro prob, use its output power which is fairly linear and bases on load
when it gets to a low exhaust temp it can tell the electronic box which in turn can provide the logic drive control of the reversing contactor.
that same unit could have a high setpoint also, so that if the engine went into overload the exhaust temp goes over a certain level
and another logic drive could then close and start to drop loads, such as tripping the 50% post on the balmar.
all sorts of things can be done i suppose.
bob g
Hi Bob,
Those are good ideas, my original thought, was to use a Krauss-Naimer rotory switch, for simple manual control, or a motor contactor as you suggested, with potted voltage switches and relays, for a more automated process.
But...Then I started thinking about the out put of the alt. As the bats reach absorption voltage the Balmar reduces field current, which of course reduces out put of the alt...so that in turn would reduce the volt/amps going to the 3-phase load dump, ultimately unloading the load on the perky\cat/volvo.
So I also have to switch the field, and add in a fixed voltage control so the the alt continues to maintain field voltage of the alt at high output. That means I need to disconnect from the trans/rec bc the bats would continue at the higher field voltage basically turning the bats into heaters until they failed...bc I have bypassed the Balmar control of the bat voltage.
It might take an SMR likely used on the bat charge side of an inverter..to accomplish my goal of having the perky\cat/volvo running at it's peak efficiency.
In short how do I keep the alt in HO, while not overcharging the bats, and dump the excess volt/amps to HW.
Lloyd
i guess i haven't given your specific problem as much thought as it will likely require, because
i have dual alternators, also an st head and a sanden compressor to switch in and out in different combinations
to maintain full load operation on the prime mover.
one option might be to first measure how much power the engine will have to deliver when the batteries go to low
charge requirement (float), at that point switch in specific amounts of load onto the inverter AC output. that should be quite easy to so
as there are various rated heating elements available, and the use of maybe a 500, 750 and a 1000 watt element would allow for 3 steps individually
or 7 steps by using various combinations all the way up to 2250watts which is about 2500 watts mechanical load.
the charge system should support that and the low charge requirement of the batteries after bulk and absorption without dropping the buss voltage sufficiently enough to kick the balmar back into higher current, and if it did the batteries would only take what they need of the power available the balance would go directly to the inverter to power the load.
it might be a simpler approach to explore,
earlier i mentioned the use of baseboard heaters in my application
i could see them being used in the winter months as the unit starts an hour before wake up, when presumably the house would have
cooled down over night, the baseboards would provide a dump load to assure full loading of the trigen and provide rapid heating of the house.
same would go for an hour before supper, when i might have been gone during the day and the home cooled down by design, having the ability to quickly reheat the space would be useful at that time also.
perhaps something like that would work for you application as well?
bob g
Unified Constant-Frequency Integration Control of
Three-Phase Standard Bridge Boost Rectifiers
With Power-Factor Correction
http://www.dianyuan.com/bbs/u/52/1176560502.pdf
or this
Design And Implementation Of A 6k W Three Phase Buck Pfc Rectifier
http://www.slideshare.net/asijoe/design-and-implementation-of-a-6k-w-three-phase-buck-pfc-rectifier-2687816 (http://www.slideshare.net/asijoe/design-and-implementation-of-a-6k-w-three-phase-buck-pfc-rectifier-2687816)
http://powerelectronics.com/power_systems/
Bob...
This is a neat flavor it would be ideal in a 48 volt sys
http://www.mip-inc.com/rectifiers.htm (http://www.mip-inc.com/rectifiers.htm)
http://www.mip-inc.com/rectifiers_specs.htm (http://www.mip-inc.com/rectifiers_specs.htm)
http://www.time-mark.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id=14&cp=0&ps=2&App=1
(http://www.time-mark.com/Documents/Images/263.gif)
Hot Features:
* Detects phase loss, phase reversal and low voltage
* 400Hz and gold contact options
* Automatic or manual reset
* UL Recognized and CSA Certified
The Model 263 continuously monitors 3-phase power systems for phase loss, low voltage and phase reversal. The monitor consists of a solid-state sensing circuit, driving an electromechanical relay.
Applying correct voltage and phase rotation energizes the relay. When properly adjusted, a fault condition will cause the relay to de-energize, even when regenerated voltage is present.
When the fault is corrected, the Model 263 automatically resets. A manual reset version and an option for gold-plated contacts are also available.
The Model 263 does not require a neutral connection, and can be used on Wye or Delta systems. Each of the five different voltage ranges is adjustable to allow the monitor to be set for existing conditions. NORMAL and TRIP LED indicators are provided to aid in adjustment and system troubleshooting.
(http://www.time-mark.com/Documents/Images/352.gif)
Hot Features:
* Allows up to 6 loads to turn on sequentially
* Adjustable 3 to 6 second time delay
* 24 VAC and 120 VAC models
* 2500 VRMS for 10 ms°
The 352 Load Sequencer is designed to allow up to six loads to turn on sequentially. Sequencing can be initiated with an external switch for sequence on-sequence off (first-on-first-off) operation, or directly with the application of power for sequence on/all off operation. More than six loads can be sequenced by coupling together two or more 352 Load Sequencers.
In industrial applications the 352 is idea for starting a number of motors, pumps, fans, etc., when it is not desirable for all to be turned on at once. As an energy management device, it can help to hold down high demand charges by spreading the start up of energy consuming loads over a period of time. Used in conjunction with time clock and temperature limiter, the 352 can readily provide night setback sequence control of HVAC equipment.
(http://www.time-mark.com/Documents/Images/2922.jpg)
ot Features:
* Monitors over and/or under frequency
* Automatic reset
* Solid-state electronic circuitry
* Operating Frequency 45-1023 Hz
the Model 2922 Frequency Monitor is designed to monitor power line frequency. It is intended for systems where line frequency variations will cause improper operation of electrical equipment.
A solid-state sensing circuit drives two internal electromechanical relays. One relay is energized when the line frequency is high and the other relay is energized when the line frequency is low. Operating power is drawn from the same line being monitored.
The Model 2922 is set to the over and/or under frequency trip points using ten binary-coded switches. A frequency variation outside the trip points causes the appropriate relay to energize and an appropriate LED indicator to illuminate.
Applications for the Model 2922 include standby power plants, portable power supplies, and windmill generators.
http://www.m-system.co.jp/mssenglish/PDF/ES/53/es53u.pdf (http://www.m-system.co.jp/mssenglish/PDF/ES/53/es53u.pdf)
(http://www.autoctrls.com/acatalog/53u.gif)
Model 53U Power Monitor
• Measures over 500 variables; 1800 combinations of AC Power parameters
• Single type module is usable for all of single-phase/2-wire and 3-wire, three-phase/3-wire and 4-wire systems.
• All measured variables can be transmitted to the host PC via RS-485/Modbus RTU.
• Energy count pulse or limit alarm output selectable. Pulse rate can be specified. Simulated output is also possible.
• Programming lock to prevent unwanted configuration changes
• Input range up to 480 Vac, 1 A or 5 A
looks like there are lots of very interesting gadgets that might be quite useful for our purposes
thanks for the links, later when i get to feeling a bit better i guess i got some reading to do.
bob g
ps. how are the transformers coming?
Bob,
I think I have sympathy pain..I am barely mobile..it takes everything I can muster to amble, sit, stand or laydown.
Back in 87 I was hit broadside in the passenger door, by a 2 ton flatbed loaded to the top of the racks with concrete forms.
It ruptured 1 disk in my low back and 1 in my neck, both into the spinal canal. I had a stepfy-plate fusion on my L4-L5.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/websize/l4l5.jpg)
(http://nkmi.com/images/products/l45l5s1fusion.jpg)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/websize/c7.jpg)
I never could bring myself to the 2nd surgery.
For the most part, I get along pretty well, since the surgery. Afterward, I would have about 2 episodes a year, usually caused by doing something stupid...like trying to live a normal life...Now it seems my episodes are coming about 4 times a year. It takes about a week to get past the pain, and another 2 weeks to get back to something normal.
Currently, it feels like someone took 2 coke bottles, stuffed em in a burlap sack, beat em profusely with a hammer, then made an incision about 4 inches above my belt, and with a funnel pored all that glass in..then super glued it shut.
Now back to topic...I hope everyone finds something useful in the links I post..even if it just spurs another thought.
I tend to link to my topic... hoping crowd source will help me find the path, it also helps me keep my thoughts organized.
I think there are a lot of off the shelf answers to many of our system needs...I would love to able to say O, I need this or that, and sit there and weld/solder it up..write the code. But I'm not a welder, or an EE, so my first solution is to search and see if someone else has already solved the same problem.
I have used time-mark over/under voltage switches, and their current switches many times, they are a great product..so the were they first place I looked for my 3-phase needs.
thanks for all your help.
should have a transformer/rec..by the end of next week.
lloyd
Not until you have been in the deepest valley
do you know how magnificent it is
to be on the highest mountain.
Lloyd and Bob and other back pain suffers
Years ago when I was a teenager I did a lot of STUPID stuff with my body. Mostly over lifting by trying to make money after school by scraping out old cars. Also stuff like circle track auto racing accidents. So although none of the incidents were as bad as what lloyd described I KNOW back and neck pain INTIMATELY.
The most relief that I have ever had came after I started taking MASSIVE doses of vitamins and minerals, they seem to be the building blocks of life and your body will repair itself if it has the "PARTS" that is the vitamins and minerals.
I know it may sound stupid of me but I personally take about $250 of high quality high priced vitamins and minerals per month and that is saying something, as I am quite close with my money. Read that as tight ass! :)
Also I have learned to stay away from certain foods like soda pop and coffee and carbs. Soda pop like coke is like poison to bones............
Wishing you back and neck pain suffers relief I know you need it!!!!!!!
Billswan
Lloyd and Bill
i appreciate the thought and advice
my back issues are not from injury but from genetic defect, having been diagnosed with scoliosis at age 13 and then
spending 5 years in what is lovingly called the "iron maiden" (milwakee back brace) which is quite a medieval and torturous
piece of hardware, they were able to stabilize my spine, however
what they were less than upfront with me about was the fact that most who endure that treatment end up with arthritis
later in life usually starting in middle age, and there is also other issues that have a high probability of causing chronic pain
all along.
that pain has always been a part of my life since about 13 years old, but it was something that i could manage quite well
when i was younger with stretching, being careful what i did, heat and rest. As i got into my mid to late 40's those remedies
became less and less effective and the pain became much more pronounced and frequent.
now at nearly 54 i can count on one hand the number of days in the last 10 years that i have been pain free without
either spinal injections or meds.
those days that i wake without pain are days that i just want to be at peace with god and nature, and not to anything to set it off again.
having been to in the last few years several spinal specialists, and surgeons the consensus is the same, my issue is inoperable because of
the high likelihood of a poor outcome, basically they would have to split me from the base of my skull to my tailbone, front and rear
and completely rebuild my spine using two main stainless steel rods, many screws, and several feet of stainless tie wire. there would then be
6 months of a body cast, followed by 6 months of PT to relearn how to walk, and the risk of infection or paralysis is higher than the surgeons
or I find acceptable.
even if successful the arthritis will remain and it is a significant portion of my pain most days.
we all got our cross to bear i suppose, and i realize i have it pretty good compared to others, things can always be much worse.
anyway, thanks guys
bob g
These are an interesting off the shelf solution..that can apply to many of our co-gen apps...especially if it's on-board a vessel or vehicle.
http://www.wago.com/wagoweb/documentation/index_e.htm (http://www.wago.com/wagoweb/documentation/index_e.htm)
http://www.cat.com/cda/files/127438/7/ce_drctryfinal.pdf (http://www.cat.com/cda/files/127438/7/ce_drctryfinal.pdf)
A ships master system nav/power control/all sys monitor
http://www.freetechnics.eu/wp-content/downloads/FTNavVision_Manual.pdf (http://www.freetechnics.eu/wp-content/downloads/FTNavVision_Manual.pdf)
lloyd
Current Switch (http://www.crmagnetics.com/products/CR-9600-Series-P134.aspx)
Features
* Low cost
* Adjustable Trip Point
* Screw Terminals 22-18 Gauge Compatible
* Reverse output polarity protected
* Self-powered
Specifications
* Rated full-on: 0.350 Aac RMS
* Turn-on time: 100 ms max. @ rated full-on
* Turn-off time: 250 ms max. to 80% of Vce
* Maximum sense current:
o Continuous: 100 AAC
o 1 Second: 500 AAC
* Frequency: 50 to 400 Hz
* Operating Temperature: -30° C to +60° C
* Storage Temperature: -55° C to +85° C
Applications
* Continuity
* Proving Switch
Current Relay (http://www.crmagnetics.com/products/CR-5395-P9.aspx)
Features
* Senses DC or AC currents
* Variable trip point and time delay
* Monitors currents from 1.0 to 100 DC or AC Amps
* Electrical isolation between circuits
* Output relay rated up to 20 Amps
* LED trip status indicator
* Dead band prevents relay chatter
* Calibrated dial option available
* External current transformers available
Specifications
* Power-On Delay: 100 ms max
* Input Supply Power: Terminals: 2 - 1/4" Male Q C
* Frequency Response - DC to 1 Khz
* Mechanical Life: 10 million operations, typ.@ rated load
* Power Supply: 85 to 265 VAC or 24 VDC +/- 10%
Applications
* DC Motor Drives
* Battery Chargers
* Power Supply Management
* Uninterruptable Power Supply Systems
* Mobile Applications
(http://www.elec-toolbox.com/images/usefulform.jpg)
http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Formulas/Useful/formulas.htm (http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Formulas/Useful/formulas.htm)
http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Formulas/Motor/mtrform.htm (http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Formulas/Motor/mtrform.htm)
3-phase calculator
http://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/circuit/gz64rMdqLY6DoC2Am6XqrQ%3D%3D (http://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/circuit/gz64rMdqLY6DoC2Am6XqrQ%3D%3D)
Wire Calculator
http://circuitcalculator.com/wordpress/2007/09/20/wire-parameter-calculator/ (http://circuitcalculator.com/wordpress/2007/09/20/wire-parameter-calculator/)
Skin Effects Calculator
http://circuitcalculator.com/wordpress/2007/06/18/skin-effect-calculator/ (http://circuitcalculator.com/wordpress/2007/06/18/skin-effect-calculator/)
http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/applications_manual/DesignGuideAppsManual_200J00.pdf (http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/applications_manual/DesignGuideAppsManual_200J00.pdf)
DESIGNING A BATTERY CHARGER
Vicor's BatMod (current source module) enables designers
to easily build a compact, lightweight battery charging
system with commonly available parts. The BatMod
provides programmable output current and output voltage
capability. Since the BatMod allows the output voltage
and the charge current to be set independently, the
system design is greatly simplified.
Basic Battery Charger. Figure 11–3, shows a basic
charging circuit with a BatMod for the following
system requirements:
Battery voltage: 12 V
Float voltage: 13.8 V
Charge current: Adjustable 0 – 14.5 A
http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/design_guides/megapac4kw_designguide.pdf (http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/design_guides/megapac4kw_designguide.pdf)
Standard Features
• Input: 3∅ 208/240 Vac Wye or Delta, 1∅ 180−264 (47−500Ηz) or 260–352 Vdc
• Power Output: 3 Phase MegaPAC: 2,000W with 3∅ input; 1,200W with 1∅ input; 1–20 outputs
4kW MegaPAC: 4,000W with 3∅ input; 1,500W with 1∅ input; 1–20 outputs
• 10 slots (up to 20 outputs)
• Fan cooled (the 4kW MegaPAC has 2 fans)
• Full power to 45°C; half power to 65°C
• Power factor correction (passive) 0.92 PF (3∅ input)
• Conducted EMI meets EN 55022 Level A
• AC Power OK and AC Power Fail status signals
• Output Sequencing and General Shutdown (Consult Applications Engineering for automatic sequencing circuitry.)
• Autosense (Refer to page 11 and page 15 for more information on Autosense)
• Overcurrent protection on all outputs
• Overtemperature limiting (not applicable with VI-J00 modules)
• Output overvoltage protection (not applicable with VI-J00 modules)
• Ride-Through time: >20 ms at nominal line (full load)
• Size: 4 kW MegaPAC: 4.9"H x 7.5"W x 14"L (124,5mm x 190,5mm x 355,6mm) Regular chassis
Size: 3 Phase MegaPAC: 4.9"H x 7.5"W x 12.3"L (124,5mm x 190,5mm x 312,4mm) Regular chassis
• Safety Agency Approvals: CE Mark, UL, CSA, TUV
(http://www.lcmagnetics.com/engine/wp-content/unregulated-transformer001.jpg)
http://www.lcmagnetics.com/?page_id=145 (http://www.lcmagnetics.com/?page_id=145)
I am waiting on Osbourn transformer to finish my trans/rec...In searching for future silicon solution, I found this off the shelf for a 3 phase toroidal 6 pulse buck rectifier.
http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/Powertronix/3Phase_AC_to_DC_Power_Supplies/6670/0 (http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/Powertronix/3Phase_AC_to_DC_Power_Supplies/6670/0)
(http://www.globalspec.com/NpaPics/72/111222_040220047124_ExhibitPic.jpg)
I emailed my specs to them..and will await a price quote...I am committed to Osbourn, for the first trans/rec...but though some may interested in this link.
I'll let everyone know the final price quotes from both.
Lloyd
the one that is pictured and linked to does not look like it is a buck rectifier, but rather a straight up
transformer rectifier??
do they make a buck converter type?
bob g
Hi Bob,
Yes, they do make a buck, or buck/boost...I spoke with them today. He said all I need do is send them my specks and they will put it together...
Here's Powertronix http://www.powertronix.com/manufacturing.php (http://www.powertronix.com/manufacturing.php)web site re; design...I meant to put this link and not global spec.com
I also spoke with Viscor today, they referred me to their design engineer...they will make a plugNplay black box, no transformers all silicon buck, buck/boost...and he also said if I need they could add a frequency converter, so that it would be capable of providing 120 6Ohz, in addition to the bat charger...he suggested that it would be no problem, and would be advantages after the the bats hit absorption...then It would auto-transfer to 120 60 hz, while maitaining enough to continue into absorption/float.
that would sure give me some options.
Lloyd
Lloyd:
sounds pretty interesting to me, and i look forward to what you find out
keep us posted
bob g
Hey Bob,
This is a link ti Viscor product...their Brick design it's modular..and has some real options, http://www.vicr.com/cms/home/products/brick/MegaPAC (http://www.vicr.com/cms/home/products/brick/MegaPAC)
They have a network of contract designers that are familiar with all their product lines. That is whom they referred me, the designer will spec the black box and Viscor will build it from their components.
I am really interested in this option.
Lloyd
Here's the Vicor Bat Mod in action...whats really funny is "highwater"]http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?action=profile;u=409]"highwater" (http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?action=profile;u=409) found the fithwheel and posted it to Bolt on Electric Hybred Conversion to your existing Automobile]http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=916.msg11250#msg11250]Bolt on Electric Hybred Conversion to your existing Automobile (http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=916.msg11250#msg11250)
Quote from: highwater on May 11, 2010, 10:00:44 PM
A fifth wheel.
http://99mpg.com/
Randall
I read the article here http://99mpg.com/Projectcars/mikesinsight (http://99mpg.com/Projectcars/mikesinsight) and the guy is using the same Bat Mod brick for his hybred charger.
QuoteFilling my electric tank with zero carbon produced electrons
To plug into a coal burning utility grid, sort of reduces the advantages to having a booster battery. I had some solar panels and decided to use them for keeping my batteries charged. I wanted to make simple easy to construct mount for the panels that would be in close proximity to the car in the garage.
I made stainless steel mounting brackets and attached them to each of the 8-50W panels both top and bottom. I screwed the top brackets right into the T-111 siding, and the bottoms to a fir strip 2" X 1.5 ". The angle was set with two wooden standoffs. The DC from the panels is 75V @ ~6A. The solar charge controller is a simple op amp servo circuit set up to turn off the charge when the voltage on the pack gets to a set voltage. The AC charger is a Vicor DC/DC batmod, powered from rectified and filtered AC. A simple flip of a switch switches from one to another.
First EV range test.
23 miles 45% charge remaining, average speed 28 MPH.
It works yea!
Something about 6degres separation I think
Lloyd
Here's the Vico PDF on the Megapac Front end http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/datasheets/ds_megapac.pdf (http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/datasheets/ds_megapac.pdf)
Here's the Vicor PDF on the Bat Mod http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/datasheets/ds_batmod.pdf (http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/datasheets/ds_batmod.pdf) and http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/applications_manual/200VIJ00_Sect_11.pdf (http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/applications_manual/200VIJ00_Sect_11.pdf)
Design Guide http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/applications_manual/DesignGuideAppsManual_200J00.pdf
These guys provide some amazing opportunity for off the shelf.
Lloyd
This guy..seems a real DIY...somethings he makes to simple ...but if it works..it could provide at least a working knowledge of the clawpole
Lloyd
http://www.poiesisresearch.com/altID.php (http://www.poiesisresearch.com/altID.php)
(http://www.poiesisresearch.com/Imgs/alt%20circuits.png)
(http://www.poiesisresearch.com/Imgs/alt%20rotor%20split.png)
(http://www.poiesisresearch.com/Imgs/alt%20rotor%20comm%20side%20half%20off.png)
he does pretty well with his understanding of the function, however
in my opinion he underestimates the reduction in field flux that is being shunted by the steel shaft.
many folks have done what he is describing, and done so before he posted this site, and have
quantified the loss associated with the steel shaft.
their interesting fix was to replace the steel shaft with a stainless steel shaft, this takes away a significant
pathway for the neo magnets flux and forces it to all go up the end bells and into the clawpoles.
otherwise in theory his machine will work, but then again he has to some degree underestimated what the
power derate will be with the modification of the stator windings, he has added significant amount of resistance
and cuts its current capability in half.
not necessarily a bad trade off for a unit that will make some power in a wind gen application, and if you can
get a hold of a suitable magnet probably a better solution than one of the many overpriced and underperforming
pm modified gm alternators offered all over the place. even some of those that are offered understand the need
for a stainless shaft and have made that change.
bob g
I just finished speaking with the Vicor design lab, and this is there proposal. They said that my alternator will run cooler bc of the design load balance, and PFC.
I will need to control the field of the Alt separate of their unit, so I will add a potted voltage switch.
Lloyd
(http://npi-inc.com/images/pb3606pfc_front_medium.jpg)
Basic Specifications
* Input: 85-264Vac 3 phase universal with PFC, 200-600hz
* EN61000-3-2 compliant
* 3600W @ 230Vac
* 6 parallel outputs using Maxi Vicor modules
* Cooling: 6 internal fans
* Rack mounting dimensions 17"W x 18.7"D x 1.75"H
* Dual stage charge regulator w/float
* Temp corrected
* Output connector options:
o DC 3/8 terminals for ring lugs
o AC Screw terminals for ring lugs
Lloyd:
how is your project coming along, did you ever get the transformer/rectifier?
bob g
Hi Bob,
My project has had a bit of a backseat to the job of getting MV Dearleap off to Alaska.(http://www.mvdeerleap.com/images/0788_web.jpg)
She's gone, I installed 3 inverters, tied to 3 bat banks(1-2100 amphr 12volt, 1-1400 amp 12volt, and 1-1000 ampr 12 volt) This entailed all new cables for all 3 banks, plus a new ships ground circuit. Also installed three bat amphr managers, plus a new Sat TV system.
Now on to my status...I have a quote from one of the toroidal rec suppliers, waiting on the second.
Also have the quote on the Vicor switching rectifier/charger, while this may be a system that is much more efficient then the toroids...it is twice the money...so I have to run some numbers on amortization. The Vicor unit will increase the overall efficiency and let the alternator run much cooler...which also helps...I have to justify the additional costs.
We are also considering a redesign of the Vicor unit, the original design was a regulated switching power supply ported to a Vicor Batmode that controlled the charge cycle with the alternator running at a fixed field voltage(no Balmar Controller).
I spoke with the design engineer and suggested that we look at a 3 phase unregulated switching power supply/rectifier, then use the Balmar Controller as it's designed to control the alternator output and control the charge cycle...the new design would follow the input voltage of the alternator, as controlled by the Balmar.
He thinks this is possible, and that it would lessen the overall costs, while still maintaining the efficiencies of the original design.
That's my up date.
Lloyd
here is the 2010 leece neville alternator buyers guide
http://www.prestolite.com/literature/stm/PP-1184-US_Quick_Reference_Guide-lo-res.pdf
Well group, I finally got all of the bids on my project, and ordered the Trans/Rec today, also am about 50% complete on the motor/alt frame as of today, it should be finished up by next week.
I pursued a couple of options.
Option one being a three phase toroidal buck isolation transformer rectifier. I got three bids priced as follows: "Company A".... full black box system $14,616 dollars for the prototype, "Company B"....full black box system $2,275.00 dollars for the prototype, and "Company C"....3 phase toroidal rectifier transformer only, I have to then build the black box and add the rectifier, and associated breakers/fans/safety features.
Option 2, was a regulated switching power supply/rectifier with a batmod charge controller for the bats, $3,943.00 dollars for the prototype.
This option has now morphed into an unregulated switching power supply/rectifier...dropping the batmod, and going back to the Balmar as the charge controler. Price is expected to be lees then the regulated version...but don't have the answers yet.
I ordered Option one, from "Company B" today, it will be here in about 4 weeks.
attached are the quotes that have the company names blacked out...if any one wants the names PM me.
Lloyd
teaching text on Power Factor
http://www.electrical-installation.org/w/images/7/73/EIG_chap_L-2010_haute_def.pdf (http://www.electrical-installation.org/w/images/7/73/EIG_chap_L-2010_haute_def.pdf)
(http://www.bpbsurplus.com/lc/images/pi_18054.jpeg)
This is a Static Frequency Converter, 400Hz to 60Hz, Unitron Inc., Model PS-65-225-8, NSN 5865-01-148-6427. Power input 115/200 volt, 400cps, 3 Phase. Output 115 vrms, 1 phase, 60cps, 400va. The unit is in good physical condition, Untested, USED Surplus.
(http://www.bpbsurplus.com/lc/cart.php?target=image&action-detailed_image&id=1199)
(http://www.tbs-electronics.com/images/tbs_productsheader_expertpro.gif)
Well I have spent a lot of wasted time designing a state of charge controller to to auto/start/stop my Perky\cat/Volvo. Everything from researching current sensing to voltage sensing, to determine when the auto start gen panel receives a signal to do it's job.
Well I have already installed the perfect controller on Flying Cloud...back in 2003...I just forgot all it's capabilities, as a matter of fact I often install these units on client yachts...about 100% of my jobs. I depend on this little unit to manage the state of charge already....it's just manual as opposed to automatic. I have become so accustom to installing these units I never read the manual anymore... Well this thing has capabilities that I dreamed of...just need to reacquaint myself with the same.
Lloyd
http://www.tbs-electronics.com/products_expertpro_large.htm
(http://www.tbs-electronics.com/images/tbs_product_large_expertpro.gif)
http://www.tbs-electronics.com/downloads/E-pro_TBS_Manual_Rev2e.pdf (http://www.tbs-electronics.com/downloads/E-pro_TBS_Manual_Rev2e.pdf)
2.0 Low battery alarm On (% SOC). When the percentage has fallen
below this value, the alarm relay will be activated (depending on F2.6).
State-of-charge
F2 : LOW BATTERY ALARM SETTINGS
Default : 50% Range : 0 - 99% Step size : 1%
F2.1 Low battery alarm On (Volts). When the has fallen below this
value, the alarm relay will be activated (depending on F2.6).
battery voltage
Default : 10.5V Range : 8.0 - 33.0V Step size : 0.1V
F2.2 Low battery alarm Off (% SOC). When the State-of-charge percentage has risen
above this value and the alarm relay was activated, the alarm relay will deactivate
again. When "FULL" is selected, the alarm relay is deactivated when the Autosync
parameters are met.
Default : 80% Range : 1 - 100% / FULL Step size : 1%
F2.3 Low battery alarm On delay time. This is the time the Low battery alarm On
conditions, F2.0 and F2.1, must be met before the alarm is activated.
Default : 10sec Range : 0 - 300sec Step size : variable
F2.4 Minimum 'Alarm On' time. Minimum time that the alarm relay stays activated even
if the State-of-charge percentage has risen above the Low battery alarm Off
setpoint (F2.2). Function units are hours:minutes.
Default : 0:00 Range : 0:00 - 12:00 Step size : variable
F2.5 Maximum 'Alarm On' time. Maximum time that the alarm stays activated even if
the the State-of-charge percentage is still below the Low battery alarm Off setpoint
(F2.2). The value "-:--" indicates an unlimited time, and the relay will stay activated
until the State-of-charge percentage has risen above the Low battery alarm Off
setpoint (F2.2). Function units are hours:minutes
Default : -:- - Range : 0:00 - 12:00 / -:- - Step size : variable
F2.6 Enable Low battery alarm / Use contact. Select "OFF" to disable the low battery
alarm. Select "[1]" to use the battery monitor's internal alarm relay. Select "[ ]1" to
"[ ]8" to use an external alarm contact (only for use with optional Alarm output
expander).
Default : [1] Range : OFF / [1] / [ ]1..[ ]8
F3.0 Main battery low voltage alarm On. When the Main battery voltage falls below this
value, the message "Lo" will appear on the display and the selected alarm relay
will be activated (depending on F3.2).
F3 : LOW VOLTAGE ALARM SETTINGS
Default : 10.5V Range : 8.0 - 33.0V Step size : 0.1V
F3.1 Main battery low voltage alarm Delay. This is the time the Main battery low voltage
alarm On condition, F3.0, must be met before the alarm is activated.
Default : 10sec Range : 0 - 300sec Step size : variable
F3.2 Enable Main battery low voltage alarm / Use contact. Select "OFF" to disable the
Main battery low voltage alarm. Select "[1]" to use the battery monitor's internal
alarm relay. Select "[ ]1" to "[ ]8" to use an external alarm contact (only for use with
optional Alarm output expander).
Default : OFF Range : OFF / [1] / [ ]1..[ ]8
F3.3 Auxiliary battery low voltage alarm On. When the Auxiliary battery voltage falls
below this value, the message "Lo" will appear on the display and the selected
alarm relay will be activated (depending on F3.5).
Default : 10.5V Range : 8.0 - 33.0V Step size : 0.1V
F3.4 Auxiliary battery low voltage alarm Delay. This is the time the Auxiliary battery low
voltage alarm On condition, F3.3, must be met before the alarm is activated.
Default : 10sec Range : 0 - 300sec Step size : variable
F3.5 Enable Auxiliary battery low voltage alarm / Use contact. Select "OFF" to disable
the Auxiliary battery low voltage alarm. Select "[1]" to use the battery monitor's
internal alarm relay. Select "[ ]1" to "[ ]8" to use an external alarm contact (only for
use with optional Alarm output expander).
Default : OFF Range : OFF / [1] / [ ]1..[ ]8
F4.0 Main battery high voltage alarm On. When the Main battery voltage rises above
this value, the message "Hi" will appear on the display and the selected alarm
relay will be activated (depending on F4.2).
F4 : HIGH VOLTAGE ALARM SETTINGS
Default : 16.0V Range : 10.0 - 35.0V Step size : 0.1V
F4.1 Main battery high voltage alarm Delay. This is the time the Main battery high
voltage alarm On condition, F4.0, must be met before the alarm is activated.
Default : 5sec Range : 0 - 300sec Step size : variable
F4.2 Enable Main battery high voltage alarm / Use contact. Select "OFF" to disable the
Main battery high voltage alarm. Select "[1]" to use the battery monitor's internal
alarm relay. Select "[ ]1" to "[ ]8" to use an external alarm contact (only for use with
optional Alarm output expander).
Default : OFF Range : OFF / [1] / [ ]1..[ ]8
F5.0 Battery capacity. Your Main battery's capacity in Amphours (Ah).
F5 : 'MAIN' BATTERY PROPERTIES
Default : 200Ah Range : 20 - 9990Ah Step size : variable
F5.1 Nominal discharge rate (C-rating). The discharge rate (in hours) at which the
battery manufacturer rates your battery's capacity.
Default : 20h Range : 1 - 20h Step size : 1h
F5.2 Nominal temperature. The temperature at which the battery manufacturer rates
your battery's capacity.
Default : 20°C Range : 0 - 40°C Step size : 1°C
F5.3 Temperature coefficient. This is the percentage that your battery's capacity
changes with temperature. The unit of this value is percent capacity per degree
Celsius. The setting "OFF" disables temperature compensation.
Default :
0.50%cap/°C
Range :
OFF / 0.01 - 1.00
Step size : 0.01%cap/°C
F5.4 Peukert's exponent. The Peukert's exponent represents the effect of reducing
battery capacity at higher discharge rates. When the Peukert value of your battery
is unknown, it is recommended to keep this value at 1.25. A value of 1.00 disables
the Peukert compensation.
Default : 1.25 Range : 1.00 - 1.50 Step size : 0.01
F5.5 Self-discharge rate. This is the rate at which the battery loses capacity by itself,
even when it is not used. The unit of this value is percent capacity per month at
the Nominal temperature (F5.2). The setting "OFF" disables self-discharge
compensation.
Default : 3.0%/month Range : OFF / 0.1 -
25.0%/month
Step size : 0.1%/month
F5.6 Charge Efficiency Factor (CEF). CEF is the ratio between the energy removed
from a battery during discharge and the energy used during charging to restore
the original capacity. It is recommended to keep keep this value at "AU" (automatic
calculation). The setting "100" disables charge efficiency compensation.
Default : AU Range : 50 - 100% / AU Step size : 1%
If that's not enough
A data logger add-on http://www.tbs-electronics.com/products_expertpro_rs232.htm (http://www.tbs-electronics.com/products_expertpro_rs232.htm)
(http://www.tbs-electronics.com/images/tbs_product_table_expertpro_rs232.gif)
An alarm expander kit
http://www.tbs-electronics.com/products_expertpro_alarmoutputexpanderkit.htm (http://www.tbs-electronics.com/products_expertpro_alarmoutputexpanderkit.htm)
(http://www.tbs-electronics.com/images/tbs_product_table_expertpro_aoe.gif)
Well I have the frame work and alternator mounting in process. These are some really bad cell phone pics.
Lloyd
(http://picture.vzw.com/mi/537819418_1901701869_517028564_1276562498808.jpeg)
(http://picture.vzw.com/mi/537818860_1901699707_517028000_1276562416048.jpeg)
(http://picture.vzw.com/mi/537818309_1901697613_517027432_1276562366161.jpeg)
hehe
Lloyd, did you consider the water cooled ISKRA alternators ? I also assume from your package that you are height restricted ?
(http://www.iskra-ae.com/eng/images_content/alternators_aap.gif)
West....ffe,
I didn't even know that Alternator existed... It sure is an interesting concept for a CHP unit.
I wonder if it would be hard to get them to do a custom wind..I'm pretty sure it will double the cost of what I paid for my custom wind...but it may be worth it...at least making an inquiry.
My unit will also be water cooled...but by a different method. I am using a cooper-nickel finned tube w/forced air, ducted to the alternator. Basically a turbo cooler...I tap the seawater inlet...then to the mani cooler then overboard, using the gear driven seawater pump. For a CHP unit it would sure be nice to be able capture the heat from the Alt.
I am convinced based on my research that most of the loss in a lundell style is a result of stator resistance...specifically heat in the copper of the stator.
It's funny I was just getting ready to email MobileBob, regarding an epiphany I had...I have even done some photoshop illustration to the above pics of the dissected claw pole...I was going to propose, milling the claws and inserting PM's potted in high-temp epoxy, from the under side of the claw, as a way to increase excitation with out cost of eff....y, and also cause output at a much lower RPM...I see that ISKRA did exactly that...which I think is brilliant...to bad I didn't think of it first.
As far as height restricted...on a vessel...every cubic inch is valuable...so I intend to minimize at every corner...that won't effect overall performance.
Thanks for the link.
Lloyd
The big alternator (AAP) has 2 rotors connected in parallel with independent rectifiers (P5 in the Pdf), so it may not be such a stretch to connect them in series to get 28v nominal and tweak up to 30V, which it appears is what you want as the final output for your application. Not sure if the current capacity would fit your needs if one halved the roughly 300amp output.
You will have lower parasitic loss by losing the cooling fan and the other key benefit is the quieter operation. May have slightly lower resistive losses due to lower winding temperatures.
Westcliffe01,
My actual target voltage on this unit is 14.5 to 15 volts temp dependant as a charge source into 750-1400 amp hr 12 volt nominal bat banks.
My biggest hurdle when I started was in my installation as well as about half the boats that I work on. It's not uncommon for the bat bank to be 30-40 feet from the the charge source...so when you figger voltage loss round trip at 60-80 feet with a charge source of 250 amp plus...that means installing 2 pair 4/0 bat cable..at a price of $8-15.00 bucks a foot dependent on where you get it. So at 40 feet x 4 = 160 feet @ $15.00 per foot = $2400.00 in bat cable plus another $120.00 in lugs and heat shrink, with labor on top of that.
Plus I don't like to run parallel cables on such a high amp load...if one of the cables develops a high resistance in one of the lugs...the whole of the amperage could easily over amp the remaining cable...and turn it into a resistance heater 40 feet long...and on an old wood boat that would be a disaster.
My alternator is spinning at 230 volt 3-phase...so my cable size is reduced to #8, but bc the lundell is 400-600 hz, and the cable has to be up sized to #6(skin effects)...My cost for that cable is just under $500.00, so I can break even spending another 2k on a trans/rec or SMR, increase the overall system efficiency and output from the same form factor, and the same dollars.
And I can do it for less then buying a prime power AC gen...charge the bats in about 1/4 of the time, and use about 1/4 of the fuel, at 4 time less total weight. Plus with an AC prime i would still have to buy a marine shore charge and at those amp loads they run $2500.-4000.00 dollars, not to mention that the premium on the AC Prime over my DC GEN of about $4000.00, so that leave me enough room to add a frequency converter 400-600hz to 60hz, so that I can then have a nice little AC source above and beyond the inverter.
Lloyd
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19690026159_1969026159.pdf (http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19690026159_1969026159.pdf)
ABSTRACT
The measured performance of a 14.3-kVA modified Lundell or Rice alternator is
presented. Test results include alternator saturation curves, losses and efficiency,
voltage unbalance, harmonic analysis, machine reactances, and time constants. The
peak electromagnetic efficiency of the alternator was 93.6 percent for a unity power
factor load of 9.5 kW.
Alternator electromagnetic efficiency was 90.3 percent.
For an output of 14.3 kVA at 0.75 power factor lagging,.
Lloyd, is there any concern with side loading of the crank???
Bob
That space ship alternator is an exotic beast for sure. The rotor is the strangest thing I have ever seen. I did not read the entire article, but have to wonder at what speed it was spun ?
gotta go back and reread, but iirc it was to turn at 50krpm
bob g
Quote from: squarebob on June 19, 2010, 07:26:58 AM
Lloyd, is there any concern with side loading of the crank???
Bob
Hi Bob,
I'm not to worried about side loading on this set up. First I am well with in specs based on the Cat Spec that Henry posted. Second, my drive pulley, belt tensioner, and belt size, are already cat certified and covered under warranty, by Tradco/NC Cat/Gates.
Plus my duty cycle is 2 hrs run time in 24 hrs, and only about 100 day a year if that.
Lloyd
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2000048303&IA=WO2000048303&DISPLAY=DESC (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2000048303&IA=WO2000048303&DISPLAY=DESC)
Description ALTERNATOR SYSTEM WITH TRANSFORMERS AND AC-DC CONVERTERS Technical Field This invention is related generally to AC-to-DC converters, and in particular to an engine driven alternator including high voltage armature windings for efficiently transferring AC power over relatively small diameter conductors to a remotely located step-down transformer and rectifier which supplies relatively low voltage, high current power to a load which is located at a relatively great distance from the alternator.
In general, low voltage, high current alternators are located on the propulsion engine of a vehicle (automobile, truck, boat, emergency vehicle, aircraft). In many cases, the battery, or batteries, are located in close proximity to the alternator, and leads connecting the alternator to the battery are short. When it becomes necessary to locate the batteries or high-current loads some distance from the alternator, the problem becomes rather formidable because of the size of the wiring conductors required to avoid excessive voltage drop and power loss.
Disclosure of the Invention A high voltage three-phase alternator is combined with a three-phase step-down transformer, a full wave bridge rectifier and a field regulator circuit to regulate the output of the rectifier by varying the field current in the alternator to provide the desired output from the alternator. The high voltage alternator is driven from the torque output shaft of an internal combustion engine or from some other power take-off of an internal combustion engine or other rotating prime mover. The prime mover can be operated at a fixed or variable speed over a typical range of between 400 and 6000 revolutions per minute (RPM).
The useful output voltage of the alternator is developed by a three-phase wye or delta connected secondary winding to produce useful line to line voltages of 50 to 500 Volts AC. The frequency of the three-phase voltage is determined by the number of poles in the alternator and the rotational speed of the alternator shaft. The RPM of the alternator shaft is determined by the prime mover RPM and the coupling ratio between the prime mover and the alternator shaft.
The alternator output voltage is coupled into three-phase transformer windings specifically designed to transform the high voltage from the alternator into a high current secondary winding. The output of this secondary winding is rectified and regulated to provide a DC voltage for charging batteries, running power inverters, or supplying precision DC voltage to other loads. The transformer secondary winding is wound to provide a number of different low charging voltages, for example 6 volt, 12 volt, 24 volt, 36 volt, 48 volt or any other configured battery or DC loads.
The primary-to-secondary ratio of the transformer is adjustable to provide different power outputs at various shaft RPM. For example, adding turns to the primary allows the alternator to regulate at higher voltages providing a higher output power at a given RPM. However, this change will decrease the maximum power output at a lower RPM.
Precision regulation of the rectified DC voltage is accomplished by adjusting the current in the field regulator to control the output voltage of the alternator and consequently the primary voltage of the step-down transformer. Because of the high output voltage of the alternator, a relatively large amount of power can be transferred to the primary of the transformer with relatively small diameter conductors. When this high voltage is transformed to the low voltage secondary and rectified, the result is an unusually efficient transfer of power to produce a low voltage, high current output from small alternator driven by a variable or fixed speed prime mover.
I feel cheated...now if I can leanr some short cuts from the prior art.
lloyd
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wads.jsp?IA=US2000003323&LANGUAGE=EN&ID=0900636180017578&VOL=3&DOC=003e1e&WO=00/048303&WEEK=33/2000&TYPE=A1&DOC_TYPE=PAMPH&TOK=GaJd9zMCf0UaypF_90JhJjmH5Y4&PAGE=1 (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wads.jsp?IA=US2000003323&LANGUAGE=EN&ID=0900636180017578&VOL=3&DOC=003e1e&WO=00/048303&WEEK=33/2000&TYPE=A1&DOC_TYPE=PAMPH&TOK=GaJd9zMCf0UaypF_90JhJjmH5Y4&PAGE=1)
The full claim http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wads.jsp?IA=US2000003323&LANGUAGE=EN&ID=0900636180017578&VOL=3&DOC=003e1e&WO=00/048303&WEEK=33/2000&TYPE=A1&DOC_TYPE=PAMPH&TOK=GaJd9zMCf0UaypF_90JhJjmH5Y4&PAGE=1 (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wads.jsp?IA=US2000003323&LANGUAGE=EN&ID=0900636180017578&VOL=3&DOC=003e1e&WO=00/048303&WEEK=33/2000&TYPE=A1&DOC_TYPE=PAMPH&TOK=GaJd9zMCf0UaypF_90JhJjmH5Y4&PAGE=1)
http://www.google.com/patents?q=3932765&btnG=Search+Patents (http://www.google.com/patents?q=3932765&btnG=Search+Patents)
This is the prior art listed in the above patent.
Lloyd
its hard for me to imagine how they got a patent for this process, as it is typical of 3phase power transmission over
the last 120 odd years.
even the multitap transformer is nothing new and is widely used in power transmission.
what is it that you are trying to accomplish?
also, do you need the multi tapped transformer? if so that shouldn't add much cost to the custom wound transformers?
btw, thanks for the link to the schematic, i came across it a few years ago, but the copy i got was so small
and fuzzy that it was almost unreadable. now i can print this copy to put in my files.
bob g
The referenced patent was filed in 2000. Things changed after a lawsuit in 2003-2005 regarding "frivolous" patents that were issued and basically the Supreme Court gave the USPTO a slap and told them they better buck up and do their job and investigate the "uniqueness" of each application. Needless to say, I am one of many who has several patent applications filed since 2003 and to date none has been granted. The pendulum has swung back over in the opposite direction and it is now extremely difficult to be awarded a patent. Of course, those who got on the bandwagon early (Monsanto and others patenting the genes of existing plant species) are safe...
http://www.erico.com/public/library/Panelboard/LT1015.pdf (http://www.erico.com/public/library/Panelboard/LT1015.pdf)
FLEXIBAR® Characteristics (http://www.grandpower.com/images/01Flexi.jpg)
1. FLEXIBAR is UL recognized and CSA certified. The black insulation is moisture resistant, flame (VW-1) and UV retardant, and self-extinguishing (UL 94 V0).
2. FLEXIBAR connections are made by punching directly through the laminates. Since there are no lugs to purchase, fewer parts are required. Installation is simpler and faster – and faulty connection problems are eliminated.
3. FLEXIBAR is formed with multiple layers of thin, tin-plated, electrolytic copper.
4. Easily formed, FLEXIBAR holds its shape, increasing the efficiency of your designs.
When bending the conductor into place, its laminates slide freely within the insulation, conforming to your design configurations.
FLEXIBAR® Advantages
• Requires less installation space when compared to cable
• Reduces assembly time
• Eliminates the cost and installation of lugs
• Increases safety
• Reduces the length and number of conductors
• FLEXIBAR is terminated like a busbar, so connections operate at a lower temperature
• Improves design flexibility
• Easily formed and holds its shape
• Insulation allows for closer spacing than traditional busbar designs
• Improves aesthetics
• Reduces inventory costs
• Lower installed cost
Compare FLEXIBAR to Cable (http://www.grandpower.com/images/Art6.jpg)
*
When compared to conventional cable, FLEXIBAR requires less
copper to achieve comparable ampacity
*
FLEXIBAR offers space savings (http://www.grandpower.com/images/06flexi.jpg)
*
No lugs or intermediate connection devices are used, improving
reliability
*
FLEXIBAR eliminates the multiple cables and lugs which offers
the most efficient and cost-effective connection available
I wonder how easy it is to feed FLEXIBAR thru conduit and into a panel? As to it's ampacity, I hope they are not increasing ampacity by virtue of a higher temp rated insulation, as in off-grid, the actual resistance and power loss is more critical, than conductor temperature.
Tin plated is nice, may help to keep the copper from corroding clear through. My old house had 10ga wire on tube and post, and the entire cross section of wire was black and brittle. 10 miles from ocean. (Los Angeles).
But if it's layers, you can have several connections between layers, which is a bit problematic when changing batteries in 10 years, if crud has started to grow between layers.
Hi Mike,
It's design use is inter connectors in panels...I'm not sure I would use it on flooded lead acid batteries....I've seen bat cables in that use that had open ended automotive style lugs...where the corrosion had wicked up and corroded 24 inches down the cable. Now I wouldn't hesitate to use it as interconnects for an AGM bat.
In my industry I have to interconnect hi amp buses that are away from the bats...which require that I build up 4/0 jumpers and it's a real pain in ..s, when dealing 1-4 inch jumpers. (http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/bassante/small/dcbuss.jpg) The flexbar would be Ideal for that...to which I will investigate further cost/availability.
Lloyd
http://www.delcoremy.com/pdfs/High_Efficiency_Alternator_White_Paper.pdf (http://www.delcoremy.com/pdfs/High_Efficiency_Alternator_White_Paper.pdf)
Executive Summary Electrical power on a vehicle is not free. It comes as a direct result of consuming fuel within the engine to drive the alternator. With a typical engine efficiency of 40%, a belt efficiency of 98% and an alternator efficiency of 55%, this leads to an overall energy conversion efficiency of only 21%. Assuming a fuel cost of $4.00/gal, this leads to an on-board electrical power cost of $0.51/kWh, or roughly 4 times a typical household utility rate. Consequently the fuel costs associated with providing electric power can be quite significant and should no longer be ignored.
Update: Just received notification today that the USPTO approved the first patent application that was filed in 2003. Patent 7 743 501 was awarded on 06/29/2010... Time will tell how many of the others make it...
Quote from: Westcliffe01 on June 26, 2010, 12:25:26 PM
The referenced patent was filed in 2000. Things changed after a lawsuit in 2003-2005 regarding "frivolous" patents that were issued and basically the Supreme Court gave the USPTO a slap and told them they better buck up and do their job and investigate the "uniqueness" of each application. Needless to say, I am one of many who has several patent applications filed since 2003 and to date none has been granted. The pendulum has swung back over in the opposite direction and it is now extremely difficult to be awarded a patent. Of course, those who got on the bandwagon early (Monsanto and others patenting the genes of existing plant species) are safe...
Quote from: Westcliffe01 on July 06, 2010, 09:08:41 PM
Update: Just received notification today that the USPTO approved the first patent application that was filed in 2003. Patent 7 743 501 was awarded on 06/29/2010... Time will tell how many of the others make it...
Quote from: Westcliffe01 on June 26, 2010, 12:25:26 PM
The referenced patent was filed in 2000. Things changed after a lawsuit in 2003-2005 regarding "frivolous" patents that were issued and basically the Supreme Court gave the USPTO a slap and told them they better buck up and do their job and investigate the "uniqueness" of each application. Needless to say, I am one of many who has several patent applications filed since 2003 and to date none has been granted. The pendulum has swung back over in the opposite direction and it is now extremely difficult to be awarded a patent. Of course, those who got on the bandwagon early (Monsanto and others patenting the genes of existing plant species) are safe...
Congrats Westcliffe,
That's our gov. at work. It took the copyright 3 years to register some of my copyrights...they lost the first application...which I had a curries receipt direct to the the CO, the after the second app...2 years. they don't have to review/approve anything in the copyright just file the registration.
Maybe you have more coming...hopefully it will lead to a patent you can practice and make a little green from.
Lloyd
Update coming soon
http://www.atkinsonelectronics.com/manufacturing/product_pdfs/VRDC.pdf (http://www.atkinsonelectronics.com/manufacturing/product_pdfs/VRDC.pdf)
VOLTAGE SENSITIVE RELAY FOR DC VRDC
ATKINSON ELECTRONICS, INC. REV 4/03
Web Site: www.atkinsonelectronics.com Distributed by:
FEATURES
v Operates over a wide DC power range
(10.5 to 35V DC, and 24V AC)
v Adjustable thresholds for cut-in and cut-out
points between 1 to 60V DC & 0 to 150V AC
v 12 Amp SPDT relay contact
v Automatic reversible action with the cut-in,
cut-out adjustments
v Adjustable 0 to 255 sec. time delay on cut-in
v Compact size eliminates mounting problems
APPLICATIONS
v Low voltage cutoff and generator control
v HVAC heating & cooling staging
v Hydro-electric power shunt
v Battery charge controller
DESCRIPTION
The VRDC is an Adjustable Voltage Relay for DC
applications. The VRDC can be used in applications where
a varying DC voltage is used to switch an adjustable relay
such as in generator control or a low battery voltage load
disconnect. The "cut-in" voltage, "cut-out" voltage, and the
time delay value are adjusted on multi-turn potentiometers
by measuring the respective test points and adjusting the
potentiometers per the set-up instructions and chart on the
back side of last page.
Well here is "perky\cat/volvo" final build ver.2
This build is using a Leece-Neville 270 amp/12 volt Alternator.
I thought I would share some pics.
I'll report on the numbers after she's installed
more pics to follow
Lloyd
mo pics
mo pics
mo pics
Lloyd;
Very nice job!
I really like your new "high speed" alt pulley :)
Quote from: hal on July 14, 2011, 09:09:32 AM
Lloyd;
Very nice job!
I really like your new "high speed" alt pulley :)
Thanks Hal,
Good catch, I don't have air for the impact here at my little shop where I painted it so I will install the proper pulley on install, also I have to get a smaller belt for the small alt on the front end.
This unit is going to do a lot of battery charging after the 26th install date, so by September i should have some good numbers to report.
Lloyd
Actually it's just a mock-up, so I could fit it in the engine room. So I though I would share one of the tricks of the trade. Working in limited space always leads to some surprises.
I had to build a base on the stringers to mount the bat-charger...but the biggest issue was how do I get it into the engine room...... That's a whole lot of work...I have to strip it down to the bare engine, so it will fit throug a hatch, then re-assemble it in the ER.
Lloyd
years ago, i was asked to overhaul two 8v71 detroits in some sort of boat, they required complete disassembly in place
in order to get the things down small enough to get out of the hole.
i deferred that job to detroit, let them suckers work on that one.
you boat guys never cease to amaze me!
hats off to those that work in such cramped quarters.
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on July 16, 2011, 11:55:06 PM
years ago, i was asked to overhaul two 8v71 detroits in some sort of boat, they required complete disassembly in place
in order to get the things down small enough to get out of the hole.
i deferred that job to detroit, let them suckers work on that one.
you boat guys never cease to amaze me!
hats off to those that work in such cramped quarters.
bob g
Hi Bob,
Long time no chat... sounds like you're about to get settled in.
It's all in a days work I guess...Just look at what you've done with the tri-gen, or RCA has done with his dozer-mill. I have had this project apart an back together so many times in my mind, on the bench, in design/build, and again to paint it. So just one more time to get her in the ER seems like little work to go...
The good news it's just a baby cat, bare engine no externals soaking wet, is only 124 lbs, a far cry from the 8V-71's.
But for sure that's why I like to do the job on the boat only once...sometimes it just doesn't pay to cut corners. Saving dimes can burn real dollars in the long run.
A well trained monkey can do some amazing things.
Lloyd
trained monkey
Hi All pictures soon to come.
The DcGen is installed and will be ready to fire tomorrow. It's all wired plumbed and mounted save an exhaust hose, to the overboard, and the bat temp sensor.
I was just reviewing the Perkins install manual, and it states a pair of diodes are mandatory, for the energize to run solenoid. So my Q is do I really need it. They state a 3 amp 600v diode/rectifier type in series with the + to sol., and a flyback diode to ground, across the + to neg.
Funny they don't say one is required in the starter sol. circuit. So I surmise that the starter circuit doesn't require one because the coil is only energized for a short time so doesn't have time to fully saturate. Where on the other hand the ETR sol. is on all the time and reaches full saturation, and thus can cause a back emf spike.
Because of the distance between the start/stop switches is in excess of 35 feet one way as the wire runs, I am relegated to using 40 amp relays, with diodes for suppression, for the Pre-Heat, Start sol., and the ETR sol.
My big Q is do I then really need, a diode in series and flyback diode across the ETR sol.? As the contact in the relay will stop any spike from directly hitting back on the circuit, and the 750 AmpHr battery bank acts as a big capacitor anyways. The relays are cole hersey, dc rated with silver allow contacts, and are about 4 times the rated nominal current of the switching current.
Ok EE's and diode heads, give this trained monkey so learning.
Lloyd
Today is the day I was scheduled to leave on vacation with my new DC Gen, everything is done, albeit a couple of days late.
Went for first smoke this morning.....and nothing I tell you....
Troubleshooting went like this, check the run sol. for voltage drop during cranking, that ok, we bled all both filters multiple times, the pre, and the finale.
We have clear fuel at both filter heads, at the fuel to injection pump, at the fuel return piping at the i.pump/injector return......but no fuel at the pipes to the injectors...none not even a air bubble, nor a hint of drip of fuel.
The ETR sol is working, when powered you can hear it click, and leaving it on does not warm the power cable nor the solenoid, so it's working properly.
The only thing I can think of is the rack is stuck, from the engine sitting, it was ran a the factory, but not since.
I am now officially burning vacations days, so any help would be appreciated.
Lloyd
Those shut off solenoid's have been known to stick. Unscrew it and make sure the internals are moving.
Do you have a trouble shooting manual?
Henry
Hi Henry,
Thanks for the tip, that was my next step...I just didn't have the workshop manual at the boat today, So I came home to look on the computer, but can't find it.
Any info you have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Lloyd
Check the very first topic. I set it as a sticky so you can see what we have. We have parts manual but no service manual. Parts manual might help you see what your up against if you need to take things apart.
Did you crack the fuel inlet bleeder nut on the injector pump?
If the shut off solenoid is fine when you check it check the fuel line routing.
Last resort, Clean outside of injector pump and pull it off and put it in a container completly submerged with kerosine sitting up right and let it soak for a while. Than while wearing safety glasses and keeping hands away from the delivery valves and try moving the lifters on the bottom of the pump. If they move keep working them while pump is submerged. This might help prime the pump and get kerosine flowing in the delivery valves.
Henry
Quote from: hwew on August 11, 2011, 09:46:01 PM
Check the very first topic. I set it as a sticky so you can see what we have. We have parts manual but no service manual. Parts manual might help you see what your up against if you need to take things apart.
Thanks Henry,
I have all of those documents, and did have a Volvo workshop manual, as well as a Perkins Workshop manual, but I can't find them, they are pdf's, so I will continue to look.
Quote
Did you crack the fuel inlet bleeder nut on the injector pump?
This may just be what I'm looking for, I looked at the injector pump, but don't see anything that resembles a leader. There are 4 holding bolts each corner , high pressure pipe keeper one for each cylinder, and a supply stack w/return piping of both injectors.
Do you have a picture?
Quote
If the shut off solenoid is fine when you check it check the fuel line routing.
Fuel lines are just installed, along with a new pre filter, and primary filter, The pre filter has a built in pump, I can pump air free fuel through both filters, and to the tank return piping...I just can't get any fuel past the injector pump to the injectors...not a drop.
Quote
Last resort, Clean outside of injector pump and pull it off and put it in a container completly submerged with kerosine sitting up right and let it soak for a while. Than while wearing safety glasses and keeping hands away from the delivery valves and try moving the lifters on the bottom of the pump. If they move keep working them while pump is submerged. This might help prime the pump and get kerosine flowing in the delivery valves.
Henry
I hope it doesn't come to that but, if all else fails, I guess I go on vacation without the DcGen running and just deal with it when I get back. I was hoping to have the power on board.
Thanks again,
Lloyd
Well, I pulled the injector pump, and one of the plungers is stuck, which won't allow the rack to move.
I took it to Seattle Injector, they're going to do a hero job, said if they can free up the plunger everything should be good, in 2 hrs. If the plunger is damaged then it'll be Monday.
Lloyd
Let us know the outcome.
Henry
Hi All,
Seattle injector did the Hero job, had it done in an hour. Here's their report one of the plungers, was varnished badly, and also the rollers that crank the rack. He said, that with the new low/ultra low sulfur diesel, anything that's going to sit and dry out should have some Standyne run through it prior to shut down. The low sulfur diesel has a very bad reputation for developing gums and varnish...not like the old dino we all use to love.
Back to the boat installed the pump, bleed it, and she pops in the 1st revolution..yippeeee
I ran it tell it started to come up to temp, turned the regulator on, the bat monitor shows 45 amps at 14.4 volts going into the bank. Next I turn on a 1kw heater running from the inverter, no change in charge amps or voltage to the battery, the perky changes tone slighty.
I then turn on an additional 1kw heater running from the inverter, another change in tone, the bats are still getting 45 amps, and voltage is stable at 14.4, by my estimates that's at or just over 3 kw load, on the Perky... DC Gen.
The Balmar controller shows about about 76% on field, and the alt temp at 45c. I set the governor run speed to 2400 rpm under this load. I ran it for about 1/2 hour everything is stable the bat charge voltage never dropped below 14.4 volts, charge amps into the bank dropped to 36 amps.
Well now I need a day and a half to put the boat back together, then it North to Desolation Sound for 3 weeks...I should come home with some good stats.
Lloyd
Henry, thanks for your help.
Lloyd,
Glad you got it fixed. Thanks to you, now I have a gotcha to watch out for on my baby Cats and where to get it repaired if necessary.
Very nice job on the setup! I love that flywheel pulley... Did you design and build the engine mounting brackets and the alternator bracket or did you find them already made someplace? Is the raw water pump gear driven?
Would you be willing to share part numbers on what it takes to put a setup like this together? I realize it took a fair amount of time for you to do, so if you don't want to, I'd understand. It's just a neat little setup.
Looks like the weather will be cooperating as it's stunning today.
Again, very nice job!
Have a great trip!
Steve
PS - Can't wait to hear how everything performs and if it's fairly quiet while running...
Your welcome Lloyd,
I am looking forward to hear how the tests go.
Henry
Quote from: Apogee on August 13, 2011, 09:57:25 AM
Lloyd,
Glad you got it fixed. Thanks to you, now I have a gotcha to watch out for on my baby Cats and where to get it repaired if necessary.
Very nice job on the setup! I love that flywheel pulley... Did you design and build the engine mounting brackets and the alternator bracket or did you find them already made someplace? Is the raw water pump gear driven?
Would you be willing to share part numbers on what it takes to put a setup like this together? I realize it took a fair amount of time for you to do, so if you don't want to, I'd understand. It's just a neat little setup.
Looks like the weather will be cooperating as it's stunning today.
Again, very nice job!
Have a great trip!
Steve
PS - Can't wait to hear how everything performs and if it's fairly quiet while running...
Thanks Steve,
Yes I designed the engine mount/alternator mount, but not completely by myself.
I did the basic layout and the belt geometry, and my metal guy then added his thoughts and welded it up. His name is Jens Hjorth, from Hjorth Consulting in Free-Balard. He's a fantastic metal worker/engineer, his shop is full of laths cnc's, and has one of the most capable sets of bending presses, and shears.
Jen's would be happy to build you a set up, we have all the drawings in auto-cad, so all the front end work is done. He said about 350-400.00 for each engine set from her on out.
The raw water pump, is gear driven, both the raw water pump, and the Mani-Cooler/HeatX are Volvo for the D1-13 sail drive. Perkins also makes a raw water pump, Mani-Cooler, they don't marinize our engines(400 series) any more, but they did do the 102.05c, which is the same engine, just with Tier 1-2.
Were hoping for good weather, but this year hasn't been so great already. But we won't let that spoil our trip. I'm really looking forward to getting my batteries charged, I've really earned it this year.
I'll report back in 3.5 weeks.
Thanks,
Lloyd
Llo have a GREAT safe trip!! Get all the data you can for us that want to know.
28 days out, unplugged.
Crossed a sea or 2.
Charged a bat or 2.
Sat in the sun.
Had fun.
Crossed a sound.
Made no sound.
Made some sound.
28 days out, I don't wish, I were back
now that I am.
i
have
a
tale
or
two...
lloyd
Here's the report from the month long test of my Diesel DC Bat Charger.
Recap of the system. The unit was installed on my old boat.(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09/IMGP0499v1.jpg)
Onboard power is as follows:
a. 12 volt house system 6 Trojan T-125's series/parallel to make a 720 amphr bank. Loads are 30 pressure water system, and lighting.
b. 120 volt house system is 30 amp shore side, and an older Trace 2512 Turbo.
Loads are refrigeration, and Ice maker/Freezer, 13 gal. HW heater, additional lights, toaster, Movie machine, computer, and sometimes a vacuum.
Our average 24 hr amphr draw is between 100 and 120 amphrs. When disconnected from shore power, during this time HW is provided by either the main engines, or the DC bat charger.
Charge Source:
Main engines are spinning a pair of 150 amp alts through Balmar MC612 Controllers.
Kyrocera 85 what Solar panel, controlled by a Morningstar PWM controller.
And finally the newly installed Perky\Cat/Volvo, which is spinning a 275 amp Leece Neville large frame Bus Alternator, controlled by a Balmar MC614 Controller.
Out of the 28 day voyage we were only plugged into shore power for 4 days the rest of the time were dependant on the bat bank/charge source.
I can say the new DC bat charger performed as intended. I ran the Perky for an hour and a half every other morning, which would charge the bank through absorption, and make enough HW for dishes, and my wife and my showers daily.
At the end of the run time, the alternator temp. was between 80c/176f and 90c/194f this is the measure of the external temperature of the negative. rectifier case. I am only guessing but I would assume the internal stator temp to be much lower. The bat bank is at 22c/71f.
The engine runs at 2400 rpm, spinning the alternator at 6000 rpm. The alt is rated at 113c/235f, and 10,000 rpm continuous. The Alternator was able to maintain 14.5 volts bulk charge at 160 amps, while supplying the inverter with up to 48 amps. The highest charge to the bats was 250 amps. For the 1.5 hrs runtime the generator produced on average 3.5 kw electricity and 7-8,000 btu/hr of HW. I say not to bad for about a liter of DINO.
Lloyd,
Nice work, on everything! Great looking boat too!
Terry
Lloyd,
WoW!!! That is one fine vessel.
Glad everything worked out on the DC charger.
Henry
Thanks,
Terry & Henry,
That Picture show the results of nearly nine years of a ground up restoration. When we purchased her, she hadn't been under her own power in 25 years, and she was completely gutted and stripped.
The previous owner decided to do a ground up restoration, so he got as far as gutting and stripping, most of any of the restoration work he had done had to be removed and redone. One thing he did right is put all of the parts and hardware in boxes ashore and didn't lose them.
I have majored both engines, trannies, and the v-drives, installed new fuel and water tanks, re-wired re-plumbed, and installed every system new on-board. We have stripped every surface back to bare wood, and re-finished, including the interior hull sides, and bilges. I had to build all new furniture and cabinets, as well as build all new cabin doors. Every structural bulkhead, had to be rebuilt, and every floorboard removed and rebuilt.
She's a pedigree boat, and the hull is made of Port Orford cedar, she will turn 75 years old this next April, and should live another 100 years.
She's a very good sea boat, takes heavy seas and weather well. She's been as far north as Dutch Harbor Alaska, and as far South as San Francisco, that was before my time. She was commandeered by the US Navy during WWII, and manned as a sub chaser, with a 50 Cal Standing gun on her bow, and 2 racks of depth charges, on her stern, and a full sonar in the wheelhouse.
We have made annual trips north to Desolation Sound every year since 2004, some of the early years we were just camping onboard, because the galley and furniture wasn't done yet. Our annual trip is 632 nautical miles round trip, which is equal 732 statute miles on land.
She cruises at 11 knots, which is equal to 12.6 miles an hr, and burns only 3-4 gal. per hr.
Here's a link http://imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09 (http://imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09) to some of the work pictures. There's 153 images up, but I have hundreds more to scan and upload. So if your bored have a look.
Lloyd
Lloyd,
Very, very nice boat!!!!
Is she a Monk?
What has she got for power, a couple of Chrysler flatheads?
As I looked at your pics, I felt mixed emotions because I've been there and done that; although not on something as big as she is. I restored a 1949 33' Chris Craft sedan from the bottom up. It was LOTS of work. All Honduran Mahogany double planked hull. The restoration involved redoing all of the mechanical and electrical systems just like you did. We even redid the shrunken canvass coverings on the superstructure and used lactose glue just like when it was original. However, I didn't have to rebuild the interior - I'm sure that was loads of fun...ugh! I'm not sure most folks understand that EVERYTHING on a boat is custom, and it takes hours and hours and hours... LOL!
She's WONDERFUL! I commend you for taking on a project like her and having the staying power to finish her and keep her in such nice shape.
I wish we still had Ruby but economics forced us to sell her awhile back. I hope she too is being used and loved.
Again, outstanding work!
Thanks for sharing,
Steve
Well I am at it again.
A fellow forum member needed some help developing an on-board power power system for a bus. We spent a half a day scoping the project, one of the things we determined, is he needed an efficient way to charge a large 24 volt bat bank.
This bank has to be large enough to power 2 trace 4024 inverters, and 2 air-conditioners, as well as the 24 volt house loads.
So my plan is to build version 3 of my dc diesel bat charger. This unit will be the big brother to the 402D, known as the 403D. The 403D develops 28 hp, and has the similar torque curve of it's little brother.
The big difference will be this version will be spinning 2 24 volt / 200 amp Leece Neville alternators, controlled by a single Balmar MC624 Controller.
Below is a picture of the new version, it's really just a photo shopped mock up of the version 2 unit.
Lloyd
Nice belt wraps you have set up there Mr Lloyd.
Any concerns about the side thrust wear on the engine main bearing? It is a plain shell bearing, no?
Regards
Washington State Steve Unruh
Quote from: SteveU. on September 29, 2011, 01:51:32 PM
Nice belt wraps you have set up there Mr Lloyd.
Any concerns about the side thrust wear on the engine main bearing? It is a plain shell bearing, no?
Regards
Washington State Steve Unruh
Hi Steve,
No worries, the final geometry will be about 60% nm load of the cat specs, for continuous duty. Our application will also be well below continuous duty, our duty cycle will be about 2hrs on 8 hrs off, and not 365.
These engines were designed to take a side load and have been used in industry for years side loaded. The flywheel drive pulley, belt tensioner and Idler pulleys are already Cat certified for this application, in fact they are Cat Dealer parts.
Lloyd
Max allowable load versus overhang, C0.5/402D-05 at rear and front of crankshaft
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=527.0
Henry
Sounds excellent guys.
Regional Kubota applications engineer would only sign off on a 180 degree opposing alternators drive system to not void the warrantee on their DG972 three cylinder natural gas engine.
Thanks
Steve Unruh
Quote from: SteveU. on September 29, 2011, 02:19:54 PM
Sounds excellent guys.
Regional Kubota applications engineer would only sign off on a 180 degree opposing alternators drive system to not void the warrantee on their DG972 three cylinder natural gas engine.
Thanks
Steve Unruh
Hi Steve,
Both the kabota and the yanmar have been used for the big-rig apu's, but the Perky-Cat's gained favor and displaced all of the kabotas, and yanmar's due to their ability to drive side load.
Off-setting belts by 180 would aid but, my units are using 8-rib poly v-belts, which really start to extend the load if they were stacked. Gates actually prefers to execute a serpentine belt, as I proposed as to running a pair of belts.
Attached are the 403D-11 specs for side load, and the radial graph, associated.
Lloyd
Quote from: Apogee on September 18, 2011, 12:27:11 PM
Lloyd,
Very, very nice boat!!!!
Is she a Monk?
What has she got for power, a couple of Chrysler flatheads?
As I looked at your pics, I felt mixed emotions because I've been there and done that; although not on something as big as she is. I restored a 1949 33' Chris Craft sedan from the bottom up. It was LOTS of work. All Honduran Mahogany double planked hull. The restoration involved redoing all of the mechanical and electrical systems just like you did. We even redid the shrunken canvass coverings on the superstructure and used lactose glue just like when it was original. However, I didn't have to rebuild the interior - I'm sure that was loads of fun...ugh! I'm not sure most folks understand that EVERYTHING on a boat is custom, and it takes hours and hours and hours... LOL!
She's WONDERFUL! I commend you for taking on a project like her and having the staying power to finish her and keep her in such nice shape.
I wish we still had Ruby but economics forced us to sell her awhile back. I hope she too is being used and loved.
Again, outstanding work!
Thanks for sharing,
Steve
Hi Steve,
Sorry for the late reply, thanks. Yes she's an Ed. Monk Sr. design built by Grandy BoatWorks here on Lake Union launched in 1937.
She's powered by 3 Perkins Diesels, 2 X 3-654/120 hp for her main engines, and the baby perky/cat\volvo for her ships power, DC/AC while under way or at anchor. She cruises at about 10.5/11 knots and only burns between 3-4 gals per hr depending on winds and tides.
While she has been a lot of work, completing the restoration...it seems more fun then work. I have done 90% of the work myself, that's why it's taken me 9 years to get her to this stage. She has also been as much fun, as work...especially when we get to go charge my batteries..and I'm not talking the ships bats...but the captain''s bats.
You know, I think I know "RUBY" though I haven't seen her in a while, if it's the boat I'm thinking. Knowing the love that I have put into my little boat, I'm sure, I know you must be sick when you think of letting RUBY go...can you really ever let something that is part of your heart and soul, go? I'm not sure I could...even after she's gone...it must still tug at your heart.
Lloyd
Why on earth is this group so adamant about AC prime generators.
1. are your loads so great that a good bank/inverter can't manage?
2. do ya just love the thumping sound of a non-stop diesel eng/gen?
3. heat demands an an engine to run 24/7?
4. i don't know
WHY???
Lloyd
Lioyd,
I would jump on building a inverter setup in a heartbeat if I can find a 24 volt DC input with 120/240 volt AC output, 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter at a price of around 600.00. They are just to pricy for me right now. Any leads on a good used one? If you do just PM me.
Thanks,
Henry
Quote from: hwew on November 08, 2011, 06:47:06 AM
Lioyd,
I would jump on building a inverter setup in a heartbeat if I can find a 24 volt DC input with 120/240 volt AC output, 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter at a price of around 600.00. They are just to pricy for me right now. Any leads on a good used one? If you do just PM me.
Thanks,
Henry
Henry,
I'll keep my eye out, but a good thought is search Craigs List in communities that have large boating recreation, especially sail and cruisers.
Do you need 3k for full time loads or is that start loads?
Lloyd
QuoteWhy on earth is this group so adamant about AC prime generators.
because where do you find a 48 VDC alternator (and 3 stage charger)?
Quote from: mbryner on November 09, 2011, 09:04:01 AM
QuoteWhy on earth is this group so adamant about AC prime generators.
because where do you find a 48 VDC alternator (and 3 stage charger)?
mbryner,
There are at least 5 manufactures of 48 volt alternators that I know of, the bigger problem besides expense is the regulator, they're internal, and not smart regulators.
Leece Neville still makes a 48 Alternator for the military market, but they are hard to come by. Funny thing is they still provide support for that alternator. In that you can buy all the repair replacement parts for that alt.
You can also by a 12 volt large frame Leece Neville with isolated ground, r&r the stator with a 48 volt stator. Then use a 12 volt Balmar MC 614 regulator. Take the isolated field supply from the gen start 12v bat to the regulator, and take the 12 volt sense wire from one of the 12 volt bats in the 48 volt bank. BC the Balmar is opto-isolated it doesn't care if the sense and field come from a different source.
If you want I can ask KEI what they would charge for such alternator, they have already confirmed that they can build and will warranty such an installation. My 240 volt alternator, with 12 volt rotor, from KEI built the same way was $750.00 I expect the 48 volt to be the same costs.
Lloyd
Quote from: Lloyd on November 08, 2011, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: hwew on November 08, 2011, 06:47:06 AM
Lioyd,
I would jump on building a inverter setup in a heartbeat if I can find a 24 volt DC input with 120/240 volt AC output, 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter at a price of around 600.00. They are just to pricy for me right now. Any leads on a good used one? If you do just PM me.
Thanks,
Henry
Henry,
I'll keep my eye out, but a good thought is search Craigs List in communities that have large boating recreation, especially sail and cruisers.
Do you need 3k for full time loads or is that start loads?
Lloyd
Hi Lloyd,
Yes I can use up to 3000 watts full time loads.
Thanks for keeping an eye out and I will take your advice where to look.
Henry
Look what I just found for the perky\cat/volvo dc bat charger.
Off the shelf electric governor, that is a direct replacement of the fuel shut off solenoid with droop control. Woohooo
SV Linear Actuators for Caterpillar C (3000) and Perkins 400 Series Engines
The model SV linear actuators for Caterpillar 3000 and Perkins 400 Series engines are designed for direct mounting on the engine in place of the fuel shutoff solenoid. This integral type actuator is linkage free and provides precise speed control. The Linear Ball-Bearing design ensures smooth rapid operation of the actuator providing a stable operating speed of the engine when combined with one of PG's controllers. This combined with low operating currents of less than 1.5 amps result in an actuator with consistent performance over a long operating life. PG's linear actuators are designed to respond in milliseconds to changes in the current from a pulse-width modulated signal generated by a PG controller. A magnetic pick-up signal transmitted to the controller provides for closed loop speed control. The actuator and controller maintain engine speed adjusting the fuel requested to obtain preset engine speed settings. This eliminates the droop inherent to mechanical governors.
http://www.precisiongovernors.com/products/details/index.cfm?type=actuator&product=47
Lloyd
I forgot to mention,
They have em for the Kabota, and the Yanmar as well.
Lloyd
Quote from: Lloyd on November 22, 2011, 12:03:20 PM
Look what I just found for the perky\cat/volvo dc bat charger.
Off the shelf electric governor, that is a direct replacement of the fuel shut off solenoid with droop control. Woohooo
SV Linear Actuators for Caterpillar C (3000) and Perkins 400 Series Engines
The model SV linear actuators for Caterpillar 3000 and Perkins 400 Series engines are designed for direct mounting on the engine in place of the fuel shutoff solenoid. This integral type actuator is linkage free and provides precise speed control. The Linear Ball-Bearing design ensures smooth rapid operation of the actuator providing a stable operating speed of the engine when combined with one of PG's controllers. This combined with low operating currents of less than 1.5 amps result in an actuator with consistent performance over a long operating life. PG's linear actuators are designed to respond in milliseconds to changes in the current from a pulse-width modulated signal generated by a PG controller. A magnetic pick-up signal transmitted to the controller provides for closed loop speed control. The actuator and controller maintain engine speed adjusting the fuel requested to obtain preset engine speed settings. This eliminates the droop inherent to mechanical governors.
http://www.precisiongovernors.com/products/details/index.cfm?type=actuator&product=47
Lloyd
Hey all I started an album at the the CYA
http://classicyacht.org/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=293
This album shows some of the history of my off grid project.
Lloyd
Then
(http://classicyacht.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10477/Copy_28229_of_IMGP0296.JPG)
And Now
(http://classicyacht.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10477/IMGP2592.jpg)
let me guess?
the empress hotel in the background? victoria bc?
bob g
well, i thought i would post an up date.
Ya'll remember my topic on battery murder, I might not of killed them, but I did kick the old lady's when they were down. So this week after nine years I had to replace my 6 Trojan T-125's, with the same.
I always say KARMA is real...so the week I ordered the the new bats, I stop by the boat to do some prep work. I open the door...and the first thing I smell is magic smoke. My sniffer leads me to the inverter cabinet, after a quick check of the bat monitor.
Yep...as my noses gets closer to the inverter the stronger the pungent smell of magic smoke. After I pop the top on the inverter I find a smoked resistor, and capacitor, along with a couple of diodes, the trace on the fet board looks ok...but it's likely the end of life for this inverter. I found another fet board used...but at 12 years old this inverter isn't fit for sea duty anymore. I think I"ll replace the fet board and make it my bench top charger for bat maintenance.
So now I have to do a final bone up on a new inverter for my own use. I installed about 10 inverters last year of just about every brand except Magnum. As it turns out Magnum is a company which includes a number of EE's from Heart, and Trace. My old inverter was a Trace 2512SB Turbo modified sine-wave.
I like Outback, have had good experience with them, I won't even consider a Xantrex, and I have installed a number of Victron Products so far so good...the one thing I don't like about Victron is all of their equipment is built to only a 20 degree temp rise. So I started doing some research on the Magnum, turns out they are built like a tank much like the old Hearts, and the early Trace's. The magnum was almost a direct bolt in with no modification needed to the inverter cabinet, both the Outback, and the Victron would have require a major job removing and rebuilding the inverter cabinet. I was willing to do it for the Outback but not the Victron, in the end I couldn't make the Outback fit.
So I ended up with the Magnum MS2812 Pure Sine, for 2 reasons. 1 it fit no mods, and 2 it's built to a 60 degree temp rise. So with that I needed to bone up on the Mag associate parts, which included a networked version bat monitor, Inverter Remote Control, and Auto Gen Start. I decided that I didn't need the BatMon. as I already have what I think is the best in the industry. But I did do the networked auto gen start, and the Remote Inverter Control Panel.
The Magnum like the Victron has a shore power boost capability, and with the triggers from the BatMon. and Auto Start, the little DC charger can operate as a hybrid. 1. as a dc bat charger/cogen, 2. as an inverter gen, that backs up shore power in boost mode....and the Icing on the Cake is the ability to auto increase/decrease gen speed based on load demand. That final key was from Precision Governors http://www.precisiongovernors.com/products/details/index.cfm?type=actuator&product=47 (http://www.precisiongovernors.com/products/details/index.cfm?type=actuator&product=47)
So now she starts up from manual or auto, goes through warm up, then into bulk charge at 2450 rpm, and as soon as the amperage drops from high to low the gen slows 1600 rpm to match the output, then a simple load call speeds her back up until the demand drops again, or she auto shuts down. I can set the quiet time so the auto start is in hibernation, and wakes up during programmed hours of OK to run gen time.
Wee were having fun.
Lloyd
Hi Lloyd, Bummer about the magic smoke coming out of your inverter. The magnum sounds like a nice piece of hardware. If my outback's ever die that might be the way I go. Thanks for the update.
Hey Lloyd
Thanks for this direct usage brand by brand feedback info.
I'll pass on that link you put up for the Precision Actuators.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Hi Steve and Tom,
Thanks, Tom I like outback I have installed a few dozen over the years, still to this date no callbacks. Steve, I hope I can contribute to help others in their path.
Now for some more update.
I completed the 2nd commission cycle on the new bat bank, which consisted of drawing 325 AmpHrs from the bank at about a 20 to 25 amp draw, over the course of about 24 hours. Then I switched back on the new magnum inverter to charge mode. It put a steady 125 amps into the bank for about 3 hours before the absorption stage was reached and started folding back the current.
A couple of features on the Magnum I really like, the remote gives you the temp of the bats never exceeded 68 F, and it also gives you the temp of the transformer which was at 120 -130 F during the bulk charge cycle, as well as the temp of the fet's, which were stable at about 115 F. after 3 more hrs the bats reach 100% and the Magnum kicked into float charge. Now one thing that I really like is this unit if PF corrected, which is why it was able to put out it's rated 125 amps for the 3 hours. My dock power is a little wanky, and the the old Trace that was not PF corrected could only muster about 80 amps out of it's 120 amp rating.
Now that the bats were in float I proceeded with my next round of testing. I started up the perky/cat with the Balmar 614 controller, let the engine come up to temp. Then I turned on a 750 watt load, for 10 mins. then added another 2k watts for a total of 2750 watts running off the inverter, then I added 20 amps of DC loads to the bats....Now the the Perky/Cat is producing a stabilized amp output of right at 250 amps. A check of the BatMon. shows plus 5 amps which at 14/7 V which is what the float voltage/amperes were when I disconnected shore power. Now for the real test the referer and the frige 2 separate units start cycling on and off. I run this load for 1 hour straight. Now that's an inverter/generator.
I am really impressed with the Balmar 614 controller, each time the refer or the frig cycled on I watched the BatMon, and the no loads coming from the bats, the Balmar was able to ramp up and down to maintain each cycle which was on average about 10 minutes each, sometimes together, sometimes 1, then both.
After the 1 hr run the temps were as follows Bats 58F, fet's 112 F, transformer 132 F, the bridge rectifier on the Leese Neville 82 C, and the Perky temp is stable at 190 F.
Now that boys is an inverter generator operating at peek efficiency across the board. I am so pleased that my plan came together.
Next test up are the shore side boost, and the gen auto start.
wooohhhhooooo
Lloyd
How is the dual speed gen control in the Magnum going to interfaced with the generator/Balmer controller?
Quote from: Tom on May 03, 2012, 10:45:54 AM
How is the dual speed gen control in the Magnum going to interfaced with the generator/Balmer controller?
Hi Tom,
The gen/balmar are energized from the start circuit, the same circuit is used by the magnum for auto start, and the controller is interfaced with a voltage ,and ampere switching relays.
This is a link to the governor controller, the governor is a direct replacement for the normal energize to run solenoid, and it then takes over that job as well as speed control, and over-speed/under-speed shutdown.
http://www.precisiongovernors.com/download/index.cfm?id=165 (http://www.precisiongovernors.com/download/index.cfm?id=165)
The following contains all the features and data that are available in this package. PG will customize this controller and its software to fit the needs of your application.
Features
High impact plastic case
12/24 volt DC power
Configurable PID actuator control loop
RS-232 serial interface
Speed input (mag pickup, ignition, transformer)
Overspeed and underspeed control
Auto-Start capability
Starter lockout capabilities
Warm up speed and time
Up to 7 reconfigurable pots for adjustments
8 DIP switches for optional settings
4 discrete inputs
4 discrete outputs
2 analog inputs
Multiple frequency inputs for speed monitoring
Over current and short circuit protected
5 volt and ground rails for analog power (2x)
LED fault/status indicator
Optional EMI protection
2 Optional CAN interfaces
Customizable J-1939 protocol for CAN interface
Ok, so if I understand properly, the Balmer will electrically control the charge rate and process and the Magnum will reduce the speed of the generator when the voltage reaches a predetermined set point.
I guess what's got me confused is the typical input to the inverter would be 120/240vac. In that scenario the frequency would go low with the rpm's and possibly mess with some AVR's too. Is the multi-speed feature for DC only? Does the inverter take a DC charging input? If so what is the voltage range?
Quote from: Tom on May 03, 2012, 12:56:27 PM
Ok, so if I understand properly, the Balmer will electrically control the charge rate and process and the Magnum will reduce the speed of the generator when the voltage reaches a predetermined set point.
I guess what's got me confused is the typical input to the inverter would be 120/240vac. In that scenario the frequency would go low with the rpm's and possibly mess with some AVR's too. Is the multi-speed feature for DC only? Does the inverter take a DC charging input? If so what is the voltage range?
Hi Tom,
Yes the Balmar controls the charge rate from the Leese Neville alternator. No the magnum doesn't control the speed that is by the Pcisiongovernors.com controller and governor. An inverter normally take AC in and converts it to DC for charging, and passes shore 120V through to the other AC loads. When away from shore it takes DC from the bats and inverts it to AC for the 120V loads.
Now in my case the Perky/cat acts as a DC bat charger at 270 amps DC which is over double what the inverter charger can do. But as a hybrid it can also power the inverter from the DC side or charge the bats as well as power the inverter. Then when connected to shore side power the Inverter in assist mode can boost the normal 30 amp AC by an additional 2800 watts, either from the bats or from the DC gen. If the loads are short term then the bats provide, but if the loads are longer such as a cook top, heater or air con. the gen auto starts.
The magnum controller provides the call for the gen start, as well as the start stop sequence, and the governor provides the speed control w/ signals either from the BatMon. and or the Magnum controller.
Lloyd
Lloyd, it's sad to see the damage to your wallet. But it brings you up to date with some new hardware.
The Precision Governor looks good. The ultimate fuel saver if it can throttle down the engine to meet the required inverter load request. Is Precision software keying off the Balmar amperage output? I'm just trying to see how it will work with my 2 alternators and Balmar.
Hey Hal,
I am using the BatMonhttp://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=709.msg12507#msg12507 (http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=709.msg12507#msg12507) for the trigger device and the Magnum AutoGenStart for the start stop controls, and the Precision Gov, for the speed control. The Balmar is just controlling the Alternator.
What's the status for your project, are you ready to move ahead or have you already done that?
Lloyd
Well I am back from my annual 30 days at SEA.
We did about 750 nautical miles this year, sat on the hook for for 2 days at a time. Ran the perky 20 hrs total time, and burned 17 liters of diesel.
All was good.
Lloyd
Hi all,
I have finally resolved, and have a state of the art Variable Speed Control for my dc gen. It interfaces with the auto-start, or allows manual start.
This is how the system works start the gen and the controller holds it at 1000 rpm for 60 seconds to allow oil up. Then it slope up the rpm to 1600 and sends a signal to the Balmar regulator to turn on, as well as to a time delay relay, the puts the Balmar controller in small engine mode. Then it ramps up speed to 2000 rpm and holds for 45 seconds, the Balmar starts ramp up of the field to the alternator set to 60 seconds this allows the engine speed to stay ahead of the alternator out put. At the end of the 45 seconds the governor begins to ramp up to full speed of 2800 rpm or at a speed to be determined by the controller between 2000 rpm and 2800 rpm depending on the current out put of the alternator.
I found this nifty little Hall Effects Current sensor. It measures current between 0 amps and 300 amps, and outputs 0 to 5 volts as a percentage of current.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09//InPower%20Hall%20Effects.jpg)
Then this Governor controller receives that signal. makes a decision based on the programed data.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09//PG%20SV%20Controler.jpg)
Then sends a command to the SV Actuator which screws in as a direct replacement for the stock energize to run solenoid, no linkage required.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09//PG%20SV.jpg)
The speed is measured by a tooth counting flywheel sensor.
So now when the engine is running, the speed will follow the alternator current out put up and down between 2000 and 2800 rpm. If a large load is applied to the bat bank by the inverter then a separate Hall effects sensors will alert the controller to again ramp up speed.
I work with the engineer at PG to tweak the software based on needs. It also has 3 adjustable pots on-board to fine tune, as well as an RS 232 port to tweak the software after installation.
I worked out a spreadsheet to determine the initial set up.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/studio413/intheyard09//Perky-RPM-to-HP-graph.jpg)
I should have all the parts by early January for install, and fine tuning.
Lloyd
Looking good, Llyod. The PeCOS model dc looks like a good solution. I checked out the specs, but notice they don't list a price. It could be useful for others who don't want to do a custom controller. Do you mind telling us what the 1 unit price is?
Quote from: BruceM on December 18, 2012, 10:40:28 AM
Looking good, Llyod. The PeCOS model dc looks like a good solution. I checked out the specs, but notice they don't list a price. It could be useful for others who don't want to do a custom controller. Do you mind telling us what the 1 unit price is?
Hi Bruce,
The peCOS was just shy of 150, same for the SV, and the current sensor was 50. For me it was a no brainier, I charge 85 an hr in my business, so that gives less then 2 hrs to learn how to program, bring wires out, add pots, then pot the whole mess so its water resistant.
I say one thing I was really impressed with the people at PG, they spent 5 phone calls with me writing the program all before I bought the parts. It was a pleasure to do business with them.
You should also look at InPower's web site http://www.inpowerdirect.com/productfamilies.php they have some very good options for DC automation. They are also a pleasure to do business with.
I love it when a company gives you access to their EE's as both of these companies did for me.
Lloyd
Some 10 years ago I set out to build a diesel powered dc battery charger for my boat. I had ideas, and concepts...this site allowed me to fulfill that goal.
9 years later here I sit on anchor with my little diesel/dc charger...charging my batteries as I sit on anchor in BC, Canada.
I have to say it is one of the most successful things I have accomplished in my life. I had a vision, I had the tenacity, I had the help of this forum, MOST of all I had the help of MobileBob. This site rocks....My co-gen has provided all the hot water, and battery charging My family has needed while on anchor for the past 9 years, on average 6 weeks of day in and day out at a time.
lloyd
Lloyd
i will be going bank to reread this thread/topic, as my memory of what your system was based on is foggy
having slept since we last talked hasn't helped in the recall area either.
in your "hi from Lloyd" post i related about having the trigen sitting on blocks
what i didn't mention, but will here is its baby brother i put together about 6-7 years ago now.
i have a pair of r-175 changfa's, and used one as the prime mover
i used it to drive a 6 groove microgroove belt, back side over the flywheel, and running over
a leece neville jb series (j-180 mount to use for prototyping, but will be refitted with a 555jho), a sanden compressor
and over a liftgate motor with an a/c clutch adapted to it for use as a starter motor.
i made up a smaller version of my helixjet exhaust gas heat exchanger, fitted a couple more bosch aux heater 12volt pumps
a block off plate and tstat.
all in all building on what i learned from the trigen in testing, just about 1/3 the output or so.
the liftgate motor converted to starter motor, works like a dream, it is so quite on startup, no gear train noise, or banging of the solenoid and starter drive. just a sweet whirring sound, with no need for compression release either.
i built it with the idea of it being more closely matching the needs of a tiny home, with perhaps 2 occupants. i think it would produce maybe 30 gallons of hot water per hour, do the battery charging needs of a 24volt system, (i might be able to squeeze 48v nominal, not tested yet, but i think it will do so) and provide the air conditioning needs of a highly insulated tiny home and provide refrigeration too, all in a package that is about 2ft on each side of a cube.
it too is sitting under a layer of dust!
anyway, as for the next election here locally, i figure a win/win scenario
if i win the election, well ok, i won! and i will demand getting my life back to some extent.
if i lose the election, well? i win my life back!
so either way i win!
and i will be getting back to the trigen and its baby brother.
i digress (hey i am still good at that!)
i find it really fascinating that your perk/cat/volvo has served its designed purpose for all these years
if you could post a picture of two of it, and maybe do an update report on how it has done, what issues it has had
and anything else about it, i for one will be looking forward to reading all about it!
bob g
Lloyd,
Been spending a good amount of time reading about your DC charger. You documented the project very well and it's got me thinking about a future project.
I remember some discussions about the side loading of the crank with the Cat Perky engines on this thread. It turns out Cat got it right. It is documented proof how rugged these engines are.
It was one great project from the start and it's been great going back to read how it all happened.
It would be great to see how the generator looks like after all these years.
Henry