I am in the process of moving my lister to its final resting place and have always had hard start issues I have the electric start and if it is below 50 deg F it just wont start without a shot of either. Here is a video that shows what mine does this is a manual start but mine acts the same way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--y-vJDP3o&feature=related
What would everyone recommend I look for when I move Thump Thump to her new home? I have checked the timing and it seems ok maybe bad rings?
Timing.
Rings gap too wide or malformed or cylinder liner oval.
Is the COV plug if this IDI type is correct type? Too low compression ratio causes hard starts. Running is around 15:1, starting is about 18:1 or bit more but non-COV heads or a non-COV plug is fixed 17:1 compression ratio.
Valves ground in for proper sealing?
Injector spraying fine mist? And correct pop-off pressure?
The lister is acting like it had low compression and all your work heated combustion chamber enough to get it fire after several attempts.
Also I noticed you was able to keep cranking after de-compression level was released, which is impossible when engine is in good condition that one usually is able to get one push through through compression stroke and next one or two compression stroke stops you from forced cranking because speed slowed down too much for enough momentum into flywheels.
Cheers, Wizard
Well i don't think I am cheating:)
Mine behaves like in the video when I don't deliver enough fuel, like when I have just purged the air out of the HP line, but the injector is not fully firing in a single sustained pulse/creak, but a series of little burps(sounds like a drumroll). If it is making smoke, it is getting hot enough to fire the fuel, but not enough fuel is being injected to produce much more than smoke... the fact that it runs at all also indicates adequate compression.
One thing that can cause this if the HP line is completely purged of air, is if the yolk on the end of the fuel pump rack is binding, it may not be allowing the rack to fully extend. Or perhaps the governor flyweights or sliding collar are not allowed to move to their full range. A misadjusted governor linkage could perhaps also cause this.
When the engine is not spinning, the governor flyweights are providing no force to counter the governor spring. This should allow the governor spring to pull the flyweights, linkage and fuel rack to it's full throttle position. If yours is not doing this, it will be hard to start.
Ronmar raises some good starting issues that I've had in the past- if you aren't getting a nice "clank" sound out of the injector, there's no point in expecting a start. A hairline crack in my IP banjo bolt was my culpret. If the engine sat for a day, it would weep just enough to get an air bubble. Even with that fixed, if I turn off the fuel at the tank, after a couple weeks, I have to unscrew the high pressure line at the IP in order to get the IP primed again. No problem if the the supply line is left on- and there is no visible seepage.
If you haven't set your head's bump clearance via lead snippet, you should. Mine was so far off as setup in Rajkot that I had to have the cylinder shortened ! It was very hard to start until this was fixed.
With these issues resolved, my 6/1 does start very reliably, usually on the first compression stroke.
I'm at 5600 feet elevation.
Good luck in finding your starting problem.
BruceM
When my timing is set to fire on the first crank every time, I get loud diesel knocking. If I retard the timing to reduce the knock, I sometimes have to crank two to three times before it will take.
Mine acted that way until I purged that fuel system of air.
Double check the injector timing.
good luck.
veggie
PS: Is your right arm now 50% bigger than the left ? :D
I vote for the piston clearance being wrong. My 16/2 would fire just fine on the pallet, but I voted for removing the CoVs for the set compression plugs like RA Lister intended. After doing the lead test, I found there was too much clearance, which of course means lower compression. After setting everything to the Lister spec, you would be hard pressed to not have the ole girl fire on the first revolution. ;D
This is why I went for an engine that was also built by Dursley, just so I have the real paperwork, and exact specs. I have heard of cases where folks with the highspeed engines get different specs that seems to depend on who answers the emails that day.
Rom
I should clarify again that isnt my engine but mine acts a lot like that one it will smoke white but no fire till you hit her with a touch of ether. It has at least 1-150 hours on it now and runs like a champ just next to impossible to start. I will look into all these ideas and will explore checking the clearance on the head.
Yes, my right arm is 50% bigger.
Now I just need to determine if it's from starting the lister ::)
I have one that is experiencing the described issues.....I added an electric start and then it became hard to start ???. I did have the fuel off while it was in the shop getting the work done on it for the starter. It became a pig to start after that! It was a first time it hit compression it went engine. I still have not had time to sort out where the air is but I believe it to be a fuel/air issue. It starts with the starter but if you hand crank it will piss you off! The guy in the vidieo cranking that hard start oid is one good ol dude! There were no changes in bump clearance timing or anything but I did have the fuel off. Air can be a problem for sure!
but with hours of running fine wouldnt that eleviate air? or would it be an issue of a little bubble getting in while it sets then starting hard?
Don't use either. My choice of "Starter Fuild" is a rags soaked with a little gasoline/petrol held over the intake. Hard to do if you are cranking. Or about a 1/2 cap full (screw on soda/pop/coke bottle cap) just a little down the intake manifold. Enough to get it going without getting out of control.
I have used either with good results and also bad expensive results
Regards to all
Chris
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 22, 2010, 04:09:10 PM
but with hours of running fine wouldnt that eleviate air? or would it be an issue of a little bubble getting in while it sets then starting hard?
Yes. It is far easier to draw in air thru a pinhole than it is to leak Fuel out. If there is any restriction in the fuel system, say at the fuel filter, and a pinhole at the banjo input to the IP, you could draw in air as the fuel system between pump and filter might be able to come under a little vacume as the pump plunger strokes down.
Shutting off the fuel could qlso be a cause of issues if you have a pinhole leak in the fuel line. You run the engine and it all gets warm. You shutdown and close the tank valve. The system is now closed. As it cools, the fuel contracts and puts the system under a vacume. Under vacume, the system draws air in thru the pinhole, where it sets ready to cause issues at the next start...
I never shut off the fuel. I think I will go thru the engine and see what she is made of. It runs so well I can not imagine anything wrong. It will carry 3500-4000 watts with out hardly a trace of smoke.
I would go through the fuel system with a fine tooth comb. My engine would run fine once started but would act up if it sat for a few weeks with the fuel shut off. Well the problem was that there was a very small leak in bottom of the fuel filter (maybe a few drops in a weeks time) but just enough to to pull air into the fuel filter with the fuel valve to the tank closed. The engine would be hard to start and sometimes run for a minute and shut off. It would be hard to restart but would run well once running. After replacing the fuel filter and repeatedly purging the hp fuel line of any air the engine starts on the first compression stroke almost every time, even in temps in the mid 20's. My vote is for air in the fuel system.
You can tell by the smell! That "smoke" looks like unburned diesel fumes but the smell of it is very distinctive once you know it. If I have a glow plug go bad on the VW, besides the miss on cranking you can see and smell the puffs in the exhaust. I agree with the engine being too easy to crank against compression; something amiss there unless that guy on the crank is superhuman. I would check the valve timing against specs and then the injection point timing. Late valve timing leads to lower compression and too late injection even with correct valve timing sends a lot of unburned fuel out the exhaust. If late injection combined with late valve timing it makes a real sick puppy. Once running there is enough heat around to improve combustion but output will be down.
Having some air in the system would result in late fuel delivery but this looks too regular and enduring. It is not unknown for Listeroids to be out a tooth or two as delivered! If bleeding it out till you get a good regular "squank" from the injector does not cure the starting, verify the valve and injector timing is correct.
Will these engines run at all is the valve timing is off by one tooth?
Looks more like low compression or fuel system.
Obvious question but....does the engine have a COV and is it screwed in.???
veggie
Mine was off by one tooth but I did not try to start it. It did turn over without valves hitting pistons though. Yes engines will run with valve timing off a bit but some diesels with looser valve to piston clearances will bend valves, others not. The biggest part of the job of checking is getting degrees converted to inches of rim travel of the flywheel.
I set my spill timing and it was off by a lot according to all the directions I got from People here. but changing it made it worse and I came to the conclusion it appeared my valve timing was different then what I was led to believe after I made all my marks on the flywheel etc. I tried going 1 tooth in the direction i Need and I got piston to valve interference so I put it back. I really do not understand though as this little 6/1 will carry 3500-4000 watts with no smoke it is stronger then all git out?
I feel like I need to disassemble this hunk of steel (or our PUT PUT as my girls call it) and see what she is made of and figure it all out. what I really need is to Come up with marks on the flywheel when everything is supposed to happen like intake valve opens and closes etc and see where she is at.
A couple things come to mind first is improper break in. I did run this engine probably total of an hour to an hour and a half unloaded not all at once but 5 minutes here 10 there. then when I got it hooked up I ran it at 3000 watts steady for like an hour here and there it has never run more than 3 hours at one sitting could I have cylinder issues?
Second thing is the lack of compression issue? I need to check into that is there to much volume in these power line engines causing low compression ratio's? It did have the COV and I replaced that with the Glow Plug from CMD that does nothing for starting in the cold.
Here is the odd part if I run hot water from the wood boiler into it for 10 minutes at 140F it fires first compression stroke every time or if it is over 45-50F it will start first compression stroke. I have Georges CD coming and will study it well and go from there. I really truly love this engine and will get it all ironed out I don't use it much as we live offgrid and have plenty of PV 3kw actually and the 1kw wind turbine. so we maybe put 25 hours on it a year charging batteries I did get her an electric clothes dryer and we now run the lister to run that.
You have to make sure cam timing is correct before you set spill timing. If the engine output is good once running then that does seem to rule out being much out of time on either cam or injection. Simply low compression would account for it. I see where someone else had a change over plug and glo plug that would have created excess chamber volume.
My 10-1 will hand crank down close to freezing without the glow plug lit but it runs rough and smokes a bit for 20 seconds or a bit more. With the glow plug lit it starts like summer time. I am sure I could not crank it through more than two or three compressions without losing momentum if it didn't fire. The compression is right up there. Piston to head clearance is right on spec. 75 thou. With electric starter and glow plug it starts immediately at - 22 C at least, which is the coldest so far this winter.
Something just ain't right for it to act like that.
So if i check the piston to head clearance and have 75 thou does CMD's glow plug get me where I want to be compression wise or should I disassemble and actually check volume? I can leave the CMD glow plug on for 2-3 minutes and it makes absolutely no difference and the funny part is once put put starts she runs clean and smooth no matter how cold it never even stumbles once it gets lit
Quote from: Jens on January 23, 2010, 05:46:13 PM
Quote from: Crofter on January 23, 2010, 05:39:19 PM
With electric starter and glow plug it starts immediately at - 22 C at least, which is the coldest so far this winter.
Impressive ! ... I think Thumper would just thumb her nose at me at that temperature.
Did you make your own glow plug or did you use CMD's ? The CMD glow plugs I have don't seem to do much towards getting thumper started.
I made my own COV plug and use a VW glow plug. I made the chamber volume as close as possible to the original. I absolutely cannot git it over compression by hand crank (without compression release) even if I back it off against compression in the opposite direction and get a running go! Then again I am a creaky 65 year old and I'm down on compression for sure, lol!
I will be pulling it down when weather warms up and I will accurately measure the compressed volume so we can know what actual compression ratio they are running. I am sure the precombustion chamber volume is not all that constant one to the next on the Indians sand cast heads so mine might be on the minimum side. I think theoretically a 10-1 would yield higher net pressures than a 6-1
Link to some pictures of it on Photobucket; http://s655.photobucket.com/albums/uu276/Tijean_photo/
Does the glow plug indeed glow? silly question I know! The piston to head volume is one variable affected by the squish clearance but the COV cup volume also can have a big influence on final volume (percentage wise)
According to the JKson manual I have the 6-1 is supposed to be 45 to 50 thou. piston to head and 17 thou valve lash. 8-1 and 10-1 is 75 thou but 8 thou valve lash so I am a bit hesitant to give you proper figures for your Powerline as you dont want to smack your valves especially if cam timing is not 100% certain to add another variable.
Can you slowly pull the piston past compression? In other words is there any leak by of valves or rings. I never tried for an extended time but certainly there is no apparent yield away to the crank in 30 seconds.
The plug does glow but it is recessed like a 1/2 an inch back inside the plug. These are purchased from CMD this way I feel like there needs to be some projection into the chamber in order for the glow plug to work?
I have never tried to hold steady on the compression and see if it leeks by but it does seem to have tons of it I can only dream of rolling it threw a compression stroke by hand and I am a fairly stout 38 year old. the electric start will roll it through compression strokes but I suspect that is normal.
I think for the immediate future I will continue to give her a breath of ether But as soon as I get Put Put into the garage where she will live I will tear her apart and see what is what.
Hate to see you having problems. The usually do start well if things are right but weird things do crop up.
I would check out a few things better before I pulled the head off. Possibly some miss match of parts that is giving too much clearance volume. I would have to look at mine to see if a rough squish measurement could be made by removing the injector and use a solft solder feeler to guage it. I dont want to suggest something that has you putting beans in your nose though!
My glow plug projects a good 1/4 inch. I think it might have been xyzer who posted a picture of a COV plug that would have been overall short by around a quarter inch if installed as received. That along with a recessed glow plug would have reduced compression ratio badly. If it starts well warm, then it is not likely air in the injections system issue.
yes I do believe solder could be put into the injector hole. I did that to find tdc just rolled each way till it touched and marked the flyweel Maybe tommorow I will pull the injector and try then I may also try the COV valve again although it was tending to not stay screwed in and would vibrate partly open making a heck of a racket.
Speaking of mismatched parts......the short one is the original plug that would start the 6/1 pretty much anytime. The longer ones are CMD glowplug replacements. I machined one to match the original and it did not help the start issue. I will put the original plug back in and see if it will start like it used to....
I put a starter and added the glowplug at the same time....now it is hard to start.... ;D
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/glowplugssmall.jpg)
There sure seems to be a problem with CMD's glow plug design. It's disappointing when companies sell products that have been inadequately tested. Utterpower's design works like a champ.
The good power and clean exhaust at load for this engine makes a serious timing issue sure seem unlikely to me.
I'd check the bump clearance, then look for air leaks in the fuel system. Most of the 6/1's are set at 45-50 mils. (0.045) Check the manual for your engine type.
By the way, a ceramic tipped glow plug and ether DO NOT MIX according to Mercedes. The ether explosion can cause cracking of the tip, and then the ceramic fragment can occasionally really mess up your cylinder. I have seen this happen on an engine where ether was used lightly and only a few times. When I pulled the old plugs, 3 of 5 were fractured with missing pieces of ceramic.
Quote from: XYZER on January 24, 2010, 10:24:46 PM
Speaking of mismatched parts......the short one is the original plug that would start the 6/1 pretty much anytime. The longer ones are CMD glowplug replacements. I machined one to match the original and it did not help the start issue. I will put the original plug back in and see if it will start like it used to....
I put a starter and added the glowplug at the same time....now it is hard to start.... ;D
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/glowplugssmall.jpg)
My original plug and the one I made with glow plug in it. You can see that it is the longer protrusion from the gasketed shoulder which is the locating reference. The fuel spray pattern is apparent on the end face. Possibly if the longer one could be screwed into a head designed for the shorter one it would have the injector spraying entirely onto the side of the plug and not misting into the compression space. I had visualized a short unit being installed where a long one should have been and thus reducing compression. The reverse should raise compression but perhaps destroy spray pattern. I looked at the inner end of mine with the head off and kept as smooth a fit as possible to the inside of the pre combustion chamber.
I started mine up yesterday and tried plug glowing and not. No question there is day and night difference in starting ease.
I dont think CMD is at fault but there appears to be some different head configurations that create some rather unworkable combinations. Below is picturess of my plugs (if I my procedure is correct for embedding)
http://s655.photobucket.com/albums/uu276/Tijean_photo/?action=view¤t=IMG_1159.jpg
side view,
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu276/Tijean_photo/IMG_1160.jpg?t=1264437426
Edit; Well I see it didn't embed but the hyperlinks should be ok
Quote from: Jens on January 25, 2010, 11:56:51 AM
The version of glowplug I got from CMD has the glow element recesses into the plug, nothing sticks out. When I asked Phil about this (the web pictures showed a plug like yours) he said that they had problems with the stick out glow plugs burning out which is why they went with the new recessed design.
I dont know the extent of their experiment on that but I do know that some glow plugs must be driven by a control unit that feeds less than full power. They WILL definitely burn out very quickly fed direct 12 V; this from my own experience with an older Mazda.
The glow plugs I use are the VW and seem not a problem but I dont leave them on longer than about 10 seconds after the engine starts. In their designed application in the VW engine they also project but are not as directly in the injector spray as on a listeroid. I will be checking on it as I put some more hours on, but it sure is effective
I don't like the way some GP tips are right in the way of the injected fuel. I solved this by using a full length one for starting and another one which is cut off flush to the plug for running. I swap them after a few minutes and can do so before the engine stops turning. I just make sure the comp release is engaged or it will shoot out like a bullet.
Thanks, Geno
There were two flavors of VW glow plugs. One was slow, took appx 15 seconds to glow sufficiently to start my '79 Rabbit Diesel. A year or so later (1982, I think) they came out with the fast glow plugs that ran off a timer. They glowed almost instantly, but couldn't be run for more than 10 seconds or so without burning out. Hence the timer.
Quinn
Looked it up. Here's the scoop:
http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/GlowPlug.shtml (http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/GlowPlug.shtml)
I think there may have been later changes. My VW is 2001. I agree that some of the quick on plugs would burn out almost like flash bulbs if the voltage was not backed off. That was the way with the Mazda I played with. My present VW plugs do not react the same way so any one description does not fit all glow plugs and drivers.
Bottom line is if they either burn immediately or are ineffective as a starting aid, then they dont fill the bill.
Edit; Although the reference to the VW glowplugs shows a recent update, the models referred to are quite old. I dont think it applies to the new breed of VW glow plug. I believe their resistance rises as they heat up and are self limiting in how hot they get even after the engine starts. It is not a good idea though to have fuel spraying on continuously heated metal even if it likely is Inconel. There does not seem to be a lot of technical info on exactly how the various glow systems are controlled
Quote from: XYZER on January 22, 2010, 03:34:40 PM
I have one that is experiencing the described issues.....I added an electric start and then it became hard to start ???. I did have the fuel off while it was in the shop getting the work done on it for the starter. It became a pig to start after that! It was a first time it hit compression it went engine. I still have not had time to sort out where the air is but I believe it to be a fuel/air issue. It starts with the starter but if you hand crank it will piss you off! The guy in the vidieo cranking that hard start oid is one good ol dude! There were no changes in bump clearance timing or anything but I did have the fuel off. Air can be a problem for sure!
Quote from: XYZER on January 24, 2010, 10:24:46 PM
Speaking of mismatched parts......the short one is the original plug that would start the 6/1 pretty much anytime. The longer ones are CMD glowplug replacements. I machined one to match the original and it did not help the start issue. I will put the original plug back in and see if it will start like it used to....
I put a starter and added the glowplug at the same time....now it is hard to start.... ;D
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/glowplugssmall.jpg)
Well I finally decided to swim in diesel and chase my gremlin. My 6/1 turned into a hard starter for some unknown reason .....first I blamed the glow plug....then maybe an injector. I just checked my spill timing and it was 5deg late ??? Well I'll try to start it tomorrow and see if I have my easy start 6/1 back! Hmmmm why did it change I ask...:)
DO NOT use ether!! Try brake cleaner instead. It aids starting and doesn't explode ;)
I knew ether was a no-no, but I didn't know brake fluid worked....
If I'm running waste "stuff" in an engine to get rid of it (WMO, WHF, WTF... ) can I also add brake fluid to the mix?
No! not brake FLUID--- Brake CLEANER! 2 totally different animals.
A story of mine - my 28 year old Son was spraying(what I thought was water based) brake cleaner, from a squirt bottle, on his Granny's 93 300k plus mile Camry"s hot (and running) engine when it burst into flame. It almost was an explosion, but not quite. At any rate it luckily burned itself out almost instantly, so be carefull !!
Ron
Quote from: bjschwartz on January 14, 2013, 07:16:28 AM
I knew ether was a no-no, but I didn't know brake fluid worked....
If I'm running waste "stuff" in an engine to get rid of it (WMO, WHF, WTF... ) can I also add brake fluid to the mix?
Hmmm...... maybe I should learn to read..
Hi Fellas. Regarding the ether or "engine start". Yup works real well. Down side is that the engines become addicted to it - in that most people over-administer the stuff and you end up with broken top rings, the resultant lower compression and a continuing need for it to start the engine even on a hot day. Years ago the local dairy company here had S-Line Internationals with Big-Cam Cummins engines in and they had an ether-start system on the dash board for the cold starts over here in winter. The button on the dash pushed a can of engine start in behind which had a nylon tube running into the manifold. I suspect a bit of "driver training" was necessary to avoid engine damage. Cheers.
Hi all,
Forgive me, I havent read the whole deal on this engine, but when my engine came from India, the bump clearance was not correct. It would start, but not every time. I would go through bump clearance specs and set them correctly. Since I did this, my 16/2 running WMO doesnt smoke and starts easily. I converted mine from the CoVs it came with (Atul told me they were fitted because the Americans like them) to blanking plugs, and adjusted the cylinder block shims to spec, and the rig runs like a clock besides the slop in the linkages. I still have to bush the arms for bronze to fix that, but indeed, getting bump clearance correct fixed most everything.
Goodluck,
Rom