My portable battery charger is coming together. I tried to prime the fuel system the other day with no luck. On taking the IP out I found it to be stuck. Instead of being smart and letting it soak I took it apart and buggered it up. I borrowed an IP from Biobill from a 6hp engine. Mine is 4.5hp. It was stuck too so I let it soak and it freed up, duh. We bought the engines together a good while ago and don't know how long they were sitting around before we got them but they were $80.00 each. The machining and casting are excellent quality. Kama brand, China. It took a lot of pulling to get the engine running and it smoked a lot but didn't run away. I was ready. Once the gov sorted things out it ran nice and smooth without smoke. I have a new IP on order from Carroll Stream. It should help a lot.
A battery and a little more wiring and it should be good to go. It looks like I'll have about $500.00 into it when I'm done.
Hey Bob, I'm really looking forward to your 48vdc setup for these Leese Neville alternators.
Thanks, Geno
Looking good!.
I notice you are running the alternator in reverse. (counterclockwise when facing the pulley).
Are you going to give a try to see if it cools adequately ? or did you find a CCW fan for the alternator?
veggie
The alternator runs clockwise when facing the pulley and the standard fan is for CCW rotation. I got a bi-directional fan on there now. I doubt I'll ever need full alternator output in this configuration but it should be good for 140 amps like this. The intended purpose is to charge 2 or 4 t-105s at camp. If I put a large enough inverter on the batteries I should be able to run power tools as well. You can get no name inverters pretty cheap on ebay. I doubt my tools care about the sine wave and they'll only be used a few minutes at a time anyway. Maybe I'll put cheap car batteries on it if I'm running tools. I dunno, there are a lot of things still up in the air and I'll figure it out as I go.
Thanks, Geno
Geno,
Correct me if I am wrong, but your pull starter orientation indicates that your alternator will turn CCW when facing the pulleys ??
veggie
Your right, I'm wrong. My alt turns CCW when facing the pulley and the stock directional fan turns CW. I even went out and looked before I typed ???
Thanks, Geno
It's good that you were able to find a bi-directional fan.
The Delco 12si alternator I was planning to use on the listeroid spins the wrong way when I orient it in the most suitable location.
I may have to keep looking for a bi-directional Leece.
If you have the capability, post a video on youtube once you get it running.!
veggie
I hooked up a starting battery tonight and fired it up. Smoked like crazy till it warmed up and the gov took over. I put jumper cables from the alternator to my car battery and turned on everything. It didn't put out to many amps but with crappy connections I'm not surprised. I didn't have enough time to make it right. I'm very happy with how smooth the engine runs but it does have quite a bark for such a small engine. I need a 1200-1400 watt 12v load to seat the rings but I don't think I have anything that I can rig up. I think the spring tensioner for my belt is going to allow for too much alternator vibration. More testing is needed but I don't have enough time.
Thanks, Geno
This engine has a non-keyed 19.8mm shaft. I bought a pulley and a 20mm taper bushing to make it work. Last night, after an hour the pulley walked a ½" out but I caught it in time. I cleaned all surfaces and installed it again. Tonight it walked a 1/8" in an hour. I shut things down, moved the pulley into place and tightened it up as much as I dared. This was the first time I tightened it while hot. I haven't tested it this way yet.
How does one put a pulley on a non-keyed shaft correctly? I guess I could put in some kind of set screw. I'd prefer not to get it machined for a key if I can.
So far I've "found" about a 1000 watts for it and it carries it well.
Thanks, Geno
Geno if it still walks , try locktite bearing and seal mount compound. If that's not convenient I would give regular BLUE locktite a
whirl. Don't use the red, I tried it once in a pinch, and it WILL pull the threads out of aluminum.
Your shaft works out to about 3 or 4 thousands of an inch over 3/4". You may have to find a 3/4inch taper bushing to get it tight
enough. Now you are .007 undersize on your shaft vs bushing.
Ron
It seems .007" is too much clearance for a 20mm shaft. A 3/4" bushing would be too small. Well, if it walks again I guess its Loctite and some careful observation. Maybe a shaft collar too. It could be real messy if it walked right off.
See table 1 in the attachment.
Thanks, Geno
you might think about using some .003" shim stock to make a sleeve to bush up the gap
than reassemble.
as for a keyway groove, use a small cutoff tool to grind in the groove in the shaft, and finish with
a dremel tool to fit the key
with a bit of work you can get a keyway cut into the shaft.
get it close and you can finish the sizing with a small chisel ground to shape suitable for your use
and then slowly drive it through to size the slot/groove with a small ballpien hammer.
i have cut many a new keyway using these methods on all manner of equipment, the results are only
as good as your patience, take your time and you can get an excellent result.
if it were me i would cut the keyway, then remount using the shim stock as previously described, and the problem
would be solved
bob g
Thanks Bob, I think I'll try the shim stock/Loctite/shaft collar before I try to cut anything. I'm sure it can be done but I would rather practice on something out of the scrap pile first.
Thanks, Geno
another effective key method especially useful for the taperlock system
drill a hole the same diameter as the keyway needed, but only to about 1/2 diameter in depth
and then drop in a ball brg,
that little ball will locate and keep your taper from creeping, and even if it does it will wear into the taper
and lock it into place anyway.
you might give that some thought.
there are many gears and such that are heated and dropped onto a shaft that has a single pin for a locator
so i don't see any reason why it wouldn't work with a taperlock
fwiw
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on January 28, 2010, 06:01:16 AM
another effective key method especially useful for the taperlock system
drill a hole the same diameter as the keyway needed, but only to about 1/2 diameter in depth
and then drop in a ball brg,
that little ball will locate and keep your taper from creeping, and even if it does it will wear into the taper
and lock it into place anyway.
fwiw
bob g
That I can do without practice and will be plan C
Thanks, Geno
I put an .002" (004 since it goes all the way around) shim in the bushing, loctite on the shaft and a collar clamp on the end to hold everything in place. Nothing is moving where it's not supposed to anymore.
The exhaust valve had way too much clearance. The new IP is in and didn't make much difference. I don't know what the timing on this engine should be but the Yanmar's are either 14° or 17° BTDC depending on whether it's non-epa or epa rated. I set mine around 14° BTDC.
I ran it for a few hours tonight and I'm close to pronouncing it ready. I had 1000-1200 watt load on it and everything went well. The earlier alternator vibration is minimal due to some strengthening of the bracket. No smoke to speak of. I didn't see much heat anywhere but temps today never went above 10°F either. The engine started pretty easily after being in a 45°F garage all morning. It had some air in the system also.
Kama Video (http://genedevera.com/temp/kama.avi)
What programs do you guys use to get larger format videos that don' have such a large file size? My "standard frame rate" video was 90 megs and this tiny video is 7 megs.
Thanks, Geno
Way to go! Looks like the little dude is cooking right along! Were some of those wires glowing, or was it just a trick of the light?
Ron
The heater wire was the best load I could think of to rig up. I kept shortening each piece till they got bright orange. I don't know how many watts they draw but there is only a slight change in engine note when I hook them up. The 600 watts of lights made a more noticeable change in engine note.
Thanks, Geno
Good to see and hear it running Geno. Funny how these hot screaming deals always get a little more expensive in the long run, huh. Still, a diesel battery charger for around $500 ain't too shabby. Bill
I began the mods to the alternator to try and get it to charge 12-48 vdc battery banks. The rectifier is removed and the regulator is disconnected. I have a "router speed control" thing on a shelf somewhere that will hopefully act as a rheostat to control the field. Off my shelf is good if I can get away with it. I may even begin to test it all out this weekend.
Edit: The outside posts do have insulators under them.
Thanks, Geno
I got to do some more testing last night. I removed the stock rectifier and regulator and put in this variac. (http://www.stacoenergy.com/pdf/installation-drawings/291.pdf) When I raise field voltage above 2 volts it begins to put an increasing load on the engine even though there is no external load on the alternator. The alternator is acting as a brake. I'm obviously putting too much current to the field but what is this effect called? If there were a load on the alternator would this brake effect stop?
I then hooked up this rectifier (http://cgi.ebay.com/80-AMP-3-THREE-PHASE-BRIDGE-RECTIFIER-WIND_W0QQitemZ260547093200QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca9d122d0) to the alternator. I can raise field voltage till I get ~30 vdc coming off the rec and then the engine begins to load. I raised it up to ~60 vdc and the engine began to smoke a bit so I backed off. I expected the diodes to avalanche but the engine ran OK. I didn't leave it there long, it can't be good for the alternator. Do diodes go into avalanche gradually or is there a sudden hit?
I then put a resistance wire on the rectifier output but didn't go past 24 vdc. It should have been about 1000 watts. It was glowing brightly and there was some load on the engine. After 2 hours the alternator was still cool, the rectifier was hot and the engine was running well. The variac was drawing about 25 watts.
My next test will be an attempt will be to raise voltage to 65 vdc rectifier output with a 3.5 ohm resistance wire hooked up to it. That should give me about a 1200 watt load.
Thanks, Geno
Geno:
my bet is the rectifier is made up with diodes that are meant for 60hz and probably not much more
the 16 pole machine you have is probably running at over 500hz, and the diodes stay in full conduction
or do not switch off like they should reliably
this explains the machine loading, when you have no load connected, and getting worse with higher voltage
bob g
I decided to retest things to verify what I saw last weekend. Even though there is nothing hooked up to the alternator as I raise field current the engine begins to load. After hooking up the rectifier I notice this engine load above 30vdc rectifier output with no load on anything. In the future I just won't go above 24vdc. This is primarily a battery charger for camp. I can now hook up my flexmax to the 24vdc output and properly charge 12vdc batteries to my hearts content. It runs about 1000 watts of resistance heaters very nicely at 24 volts. No smoke from the engine, the alternator stays cool and rectifier is pretty warm to the touch without a fan on it.
Bob, I'm still curious how you plan to get 48 volts out of these alternators but it can wait.
Thanks, Geno
Geno,
I just picked up my 2nd Leece Neville and plan on building a portable 12 volt charger like yours and will charge my camp batteries. I will probably have to buy an engine and was wondering if you feel the 6 hp is big enough? It sounds like it will do fine for battery charging. I checked out Carol Stream and I can get a 6hp diesel for around $400 That would put me way over your $500. I might just defect and buy a cheap 10hp gas one as much as I will use it.
My engine is 4 hp continuous and it will put out about a 1000 watts easy. I don't have the measuring equipment to be more precise. I didn't even know my engine rpm. My pulley ratio is 2:1 and I used the "that sounds about right" method to judge things. How much charge current can your batteries handle? I won't be charging more than 4 t-105s at a time so I'm limited to 600 watts. I'd think a 6 hp engine could handle a pretty big battery bank.
Quote from: Geno on February 21, 2010, 05:43:19 PM
In the future I just won't go above 24vdc. This is primarily a battery charger for camp. I can now hook up my flexmax to the 24vdc output and properly charge 12vdc batteries to my hearts content.
Thanks, Geno
I don't know if your planning on manual field current adjustment like I tried but it doesn't work too well with a varying load. Alternator voltage goes up much more than I thought it would as current to the batteries goes down. Some sort of automatic 24 volt regulation is in order.
Thanks, Geno
Geno,
I have 4 6volt Trojan golf cart batteries wired to 12v......maybe the 4.5hp diesel he sells would be enough and I might get an auto alternator instead maybe not.......Is your alternator double or 1/2 the engine speed?
My memory is slipping, but there was a post on this forum about a company that had a complete Kubota based battery charger; they had a custom regulator for HD alternator that did 3 stage battery charging with temperature compensation. It might be worthwhile to see what they might want ($) just for the external alternator regulator.
I can't be trusted to manually monitor and adjust a charge cycle, it's too easy for me to get distracted and forget...
that was ample power that made and markets the kubota battery charger, there are others as well
they manufacture and sell a very good temp compensated 3stage regulator
a partial list of others
balmar, mc612 is their 12volt version
xantrex, xar12 is their 12volt version
amplepower, don't recall the model number
hehr power products, don't recall theirs either
there are some good heart interface units out there too, as well as a couple that are made and marketed out of england
who's names escape me just now.
a good 3 stage controller will do temp compensation with optional temp sensor, they will also monitor alternator temperature
as well, with an optional sensor. good ones will also have an amp manager function that is in my opinion most useful
in its ability to match your available hp to the alternator you are using. good ones will also have a soft start, programmable setpoints
and are programmable for 4-6 different battery technologies, (agm,gell,flooded, are the majors). the best ones will have a remote sense
capability.
prices range from 250 to 400 retail, and around 200-275 on ebay for new surplus units.
yes they are a bit pricey, but it only takes forgetting your reostat controlled charger for a few hours, for you to cook the price of a controller
out of an expensive set of batteries. over the life of the batteries the controller will more than pay for itself in increased battery life, more amp/hrs in and out of the batteries, and far less fuel burned.
bob g
I didn't realize that there were a number of choices for smart alternator regulators. Thanks, Bob! It would be very sweet if the higher end ones have a "charge done- gone to float" signal for auto generator shut down.
Bruce:
i am not sure, and would have to go back and reread the doc's but i think there is a port that is meant for an indicator lamp
to tell you when the controller goes to float,
that lamp port would be all that would be needed to initiate a shutdown with a few other ancillary components, or very easily
integrated into a microcontroller system, as you know i am sure.
i am pretty sure balmar and the xantrex controllers have that ability, and likely so do amplepower and the english offerings.
if i get some time this afternoon i will look into that and see if it is possible.
bob g
Bob,
You could also easily use a potted voltage switch with a time delay relay. That's how I am going to operate my system. It's cheap and reliable.
i am currently using a dual potted w/relay to ventilate my batteries, on at 14.4 volts, off at 13.2 volts. W/20 min delay, to assure all gassing is removed.
Lloyd
Bob- That's great= the float indicator signal would be just the ticket to trigger an auto shutdown.
Lloyd,
Charge complete is normally detected by dropping charge current while at the absorption voltage, and a timeout function is used in many 3 stage chargers in case the absorption phase goes on too long.
The absorption voltage isn't fixed, it varies with battery temperature.
How do you sense charge completion with just a fixed voltage switch and timer relay?
Charge completion results in float voltage stabilized 13.2-13.4 temp depending, on 12 volts, set your time delay for 15-30 min at at what ever you chose for float.
The balmar uses time delay, for it's stages, so do many inverters, as a safety override.
Lloyd
Quote from: XYZER on March 10, 2010, 08:13:43 AM
Geno,
I have 4 6volt Trojan golf cart batteries wired to 12v......maybe the 4.5hp diesel he sells would be enough and I might get an auto alternator instead maybe not.......Is your alternator double or 1/2 the engine speed?
2 hp should be enough for 4 Trojan's. Are they the 225 amp hour T-105's? If so I don't think they should be charged at more than 150 watts each.
The alternator is double speed.
My next test will be to put the stock rectifier back in, put an automotive 24 volt regulator on the alternator and give it sense voltage from a couple small 12 volt UPS batteries I have. If it works I'll have a steady 26-27 volt output from the alternator which I can use to feed the Flexmax. I'm pretty sure Bob mentioned elsewhere that the stock rectifier doesn't go into avalanche until around 30 volts and that was with a lot more power going through it than I'll ever see.
Thanks, Geno
keep your eyes open, these come up on ebay from time to time
they are made for an inverter, but
can have an external rectifier bridge, and external regulator and charge a 48 volt bank at whatever voltage
you want.
good for nearly 5kwatt of charging
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330410509900&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:MOTORS:1123
bob g
*Somebody* got a great deal on that one!
I'll keep my eyes open.
Thanks, Geno
Somebody??
8)
bob g
:)
I got the external 24 volt regulator installed yesterday and I finally have a nice steady 26.5 volt output to feed the Flexmax. I ran the Flexmax up to 14 volts/55 amps/780 watts output and it worked very well. The engine pulls the load nicely at an rpm somewhere less than deafening.
Thanks, Geno