Micro CoGen.

I decided to take a few pics of the hardware that i am going to use to build my automation system

rather than reinvent the wheel, i decided to use off the shelf pc parts, basically a reapplication of existing stuff
then make it work for my purposes.

the case chassis, is a standard 19" rack mount unit, that has 8 externally accessible drive bays, and it came with
a standard pc power supply, so it has the requisite 5vdc for my micro controllers and also 12volts for the intermediate
relays.

into this case i installed 8 removeable drive caddys, got the wrong ones for my purposes (sata) instead of the ones
i wanted (ata) SATA has only 5 or 6 comm lines as opposed to the ata having something like 40 or so, (never counted them
but there is far more than what i need)
i recently picked up 8 new ata caddy systems and will be installing them, in place of the sata drive caddys

the ribbon cable is the interconnecting cable from each of the drive bays, and will be recommissioned to be my data buss
between the master and the other 7 slave units that will populate each of the 8 available bays.

the drive caddys unlatch and slide out of the bays from the front end without need for disassembly of the case, making removal
very quick and easy for reprogramming as needed, there is also a seperate lock for each bay to keep them from being removed
by someone not knowing what he is doing.

the particular caddy's i am useing are non standard 3.5" units, non standard in that they are a bit wider than standard to allow
for shock pads for hard drives, this added width allows the ability to use the widely available relay boards that fit nicely inside, and
the much smaller daughterboards, which are also available for very little cost, will fit within the caddy as well.

sorry for the quality of the pics, my camera flash is not working for some reason?

as i start to assemble the system, i will try to take more pics and document the process here on the forum.

lest i forget, the reason i decided on a 19" rack mount case is because there are tons of rack mount cases surplus
that can be had for a song that can be used to house all sorts of relays, switchgear, etc, making for a clean setup
and probably contain much of the emi crap we are concerned with. also my exeltech inverter system is a rack mount
setup so the total system can be setup in a nice vertical package that would take up a quite small footprint of a small
closet.

bob g

the comm ribbon cable and a caddy partially inserted into the case

each one of the little black bars are connectors that plug into the caddy racks inside the case


bob g

Thanks for the pictures, Bob.   It's going to be a 1st class industrial, rack mount setup.

The classic rack mount design issue is getting your external inputs/outputs to each board. From the front to each board is sometimes done, but it's way tidier from the rear- IDE cable side, if you can pull it off, as front  cables to boards is a bit of a mess and your access to boards is impaired. (It can be and is done often.) Maybe a unique to the board auxilary I/O connector off the backside of the board depending on the board's needs?  Can't see enough detail of the board in drive box to see how it might work.  

I'm sure you have a scheme already figured, so do tell, I'll bet its good. :)

Bruce

thanks Bruce:

the caddy enclosure has a centronics male connector and the bay has the centronics female, so when the caddy is
inserted into the bay and locked in, the connection between the two is made, providing connection to the ide ribbon cable
and the 4 wire power cable (its also the standard drive plug, which name escapes me just now)

inside the case of the caddy there is a short ribbon cable that would normally connect the to the ide harddrive connection and also
the 4 wire power connections

all i need to do is map the conductors and then make up and attach the short ribbon to the relay board for outputs, and to the daughterboard (that carries the processor and its related components) for inputs and for comm lines onto my wide buss for
bi directional communication between the master and the slaves.

i am seriously considering useing this chassis for only slaves and have the master in a second case stacked above this case in the rack tower. the advantage would be that everything within this case only has outputs, and comm lines and no other outside inputs coming in, leaving the master within another case to have ample room for all the other stuff that makes input to the master.

because the master would take so little room in another case, it would allow space for a small 12volt gell cell alarm type battery to keep
the master powered even when other power sources are inoperative, not online or whatever. also there would be ample room on the front panel for a really cool led interface to illustrate what the system is up to. for kicks i tried a piece of 3/8" lexan, painted black, with
holes drilled partially through with leds pressed into the panel from the rear, the look is awesome in my opinion, and with a bit of artwork
all the labeling could be sandwiched between and made to illuminate as a specific thing is in operation.

then another case racked below the slaves could house the power relays to drive all manner of other switch gear, such as starter relays, glowplug relays, coolant pumps, fans, inverter to st switchgear etc.

i am a big fan of automotive cube iso relays, they are cheap, dependable and you can find them everywhere, i plan on useing a lot of them and have to build up a suitable array to mount them within a case. i also like industrial fuse mounts, the panel mount twist in type, and plan on use them where appropriate, and of course ebay is a wonderful source of very good relays and contactors which would make for a very robust system.

been collecting parts for several years, and finally have it all, just need to sit down and start assembling the system.


maybe it has more to do with growing up under the influence of star trek?  maybe its because of old frankenstien movies?
maybe its because of my envy of guys like edison and tesla having their own labs?

or some other perversion?

or all the above!



probably has more to do with working on other folks systems, and being in awe of what others have done, coupled with a time
in our history where there is so much surplus available to work with.  all i know is there is far more to work with today than
what there was 30 years ago, and much lower in cost.

at least in this way, we got it much better now than in the good old days.

bob g

Bob, that looks like the beginnings of a really nice system - and so extensible too! I've found that, if you find the right sale on eBay, the big (42U) cabinets go for a song, because they're far too big for most people. But for this sort of application, where it can live out in the garage, the big racks really are the cat's meow. The hardest thing to deal with in the 19" racking world is those PITA cage nuts. They are such a dog to get in & out...

Anyway, I'm watching this one with interest, and I hope to copy the concept in the future.

I got to wondering what on earth Lexan was. Fortunately, a quick google showed it was just a clear plastic sheet, very similar to perspex (http://helmies.org.uk/ThumbsUp.gif). If you go with your 2-layer idea, you could screen-print the front of the inner layer, partially drill, and achieve spectacular results. Screen printing, although a bit tedious, would really bring that "ST:TNG" look to life. Now, if you could just make it touch-sensitive.....

I'd better hit the sack now, before I get any more useless ideas  ;D

Damn, that's sweet, Bob, all cable off the back side.  When you get to it, consider doing solid state switches (logic level MOSFETs) instead of some of those nasty old relays.  They really are solid, and more reliable than relays when designed properly, plus consume no power.   I'd be glad to help.   

You've raised the bar to new heights for extensible multi-processor electro-mechanical design.

You concept of power management from the master seems ideal for this arrangement.  Somewhere in your system is battery bank management, right? How does that fit in?

here is a rough overview, and i must preface the methods i use are somewhat outdated, but they work for me :)

the master has a basic set of code to just sit and scan though, it scans inputs for a "high" indicating there is a need
that needs attention,

there are slaves for each of the following, (from memory, i don't have my notes handy)
engine management, battery managment, refrigeration,(heatpump valving),  heating and cooling, power generation ST head, power generation alternator, and a few other items like solar, and wind generation.

for battery management i plan to use a rather crude system, of a bar driver, where a row of led's indicate the voltage level of the battery bank, attached to that rail will be a photo transistor for low setpoint and high setpoiint, so that i can manually adjust them
to trigger for a low voltage setpoint and  a high voltage setpoint.  batteries get down to perhaps 12.4volts the line goes from low to high
and the master while scanning picks up this event or request, and passes both a high on the address line to the engine slave to initiate
a startup and also another high on the alternator control slave to bring on the charging,, which it will do until such time as the high setpoint is reached.

now this is purposely basic and by most standards rather simple/crude, but it is adequate for the 50/80 charge regime, where i will be doing the 80-100% charge on a weekly basis and have much tighter control.  i just need something that works and can be adjusted quite easily, and this system satisfies this quite well without lengthy codeing and A/D conversions. because the resolution of the bar driver can be quite reasonable when cascaded and because it can be physically adjusted i can alter the set points quickly and easily to also account for ambeint temperature, again without the need to alter the very basic coding.

again it is not perfect, and certainly there are much better ways of doing the same thing and probably more accurately, but i don't need
a high degree of accuracy and would favor simplicity of a manually adjustable system.  i have to think down the road should i need to instuct someone else how to adjust the system, and i am not at all sure i want anyone chopping into the coding if i can help it.

btw, i really would rather be using solid state swtches, but the relay boards are available with all the parts, in a size that fits for a low price
so for now i will likely just use them. maybe after the system is up and running i can change to SSR's and pic processors too   :)

anyway getting back to the system overview

the idea is for the master to sit there scanning all loads, beit electrical, or thermal,
if i need to wash clothes the master knows this can be a scheduled event and will wait to activate that load
until either the predetermined time of day has arrived or there is sufficient other loads requesting service to warrant
a startup of the engine and allow it to run at near peak load.

if it senses a need for more heat in the thermal mass storage, it can balance that need against, battery charging,
and other loads, effect a startup and apply any combination of loads to the engine so as to maintain near full load
and not allow it to go into overload condition. overload would dictate that the master decide which load can be dropped
so that the engine can maintain the loading.

my thinking is the master has three things to do, one is monitoring requests, two is making decisions, and three issueing
start commands to the various slaves needed to satisfy the need. this allows the slaves to be able to really be good at specific
jobs that might be tedious and require a lot of babysitting, freeing up the master to scan continously checking requests, making decisions
and issueing start commands.

i see the master doing a lot of "looping" while the slaves do the sequential stepped operations where the processor is hung up waiting
to do the next thing in sequence (although i realize it need not have to wait)

there is so much more, but it is easier for me to do that try to explain it

bob g

Bob,
I have a single op amp circuit that does the proper wet lead acid temperature compensation (4mv per degree C) that could be adapted to meet your needs. (Attached.)  The set point is adjustable by trim pot, the current version does float, cyclic, and equalize voltages, all temperature compensated.  Adding a comparator for low voltage sensing (start the genny) is just a comparator and reference, and another trim pot so you can adjust a bit as your battery ages.

State of charge by voltage alone would be a lot better with an added current sensor; for a specific battery, with a known load, voltage can predict (table lookup) SOC. Otherwise, load can drop the battery voltage such that voltage alone will trip your detector, even though it was just a brief current surge. With a massive enough battery, and light loads you might get away with it.

Thanks Bruce

after i wrote that last diatribe, i got to thinking and remembered what i was going to use

what i have is several of the front panels off of apc ups systems, they have the 5 or 6 led battery soc indicators
and also another row of 5 or 6 load sense led indicators.

the little panels have a pc board attached to them, with some ic's of somesort, and they are very stable in operation
heavy loads do not drop the led indicated until the voltage is actually down to that level for what  i think is several seconds
this keeps them from indicating low voltage under surge conditions i would guess.

i don't know, other than they are so well built, and would be very easy to just take the logic straight off the board, and through
a dip switch setup so that i could basically just set a dip switch to get a voltage setpoint,

it would be very simple to do in my opinion, the dip switch could be mounted on the prototype part of the daughter board that
the processor is mounted on easy enough,

these are the finer details some of which i have not firmed up on yet, but rather have some idea's on how to get a system working
well enough to then go back and make improvments to each subsection beit the slaves or the master.

that was one of the other attractions of the master/slave architecture, that being a modular approach, where one can build a system
even if crude, and then go through and modify/improve each while still retaining an operational system.

because of my back problems, i am dramatically limited to what i can do physically, so i have to save what little back i have for
making money, and this puts off other facets of my system until such time as the surgeon performs his magic, however
the control system is relatively light and it is something i can do in a chair if i have to.  so maybe i can make some real progress over the
winter months.

too darned cold out to want to do anything out there anyway

:)

btw, thanks for the circuit, i will give it a hard look, while i might not use it at first, it will likely be something i will look to incorporate
later.

bob g

By disconnecting the shunt regulator's power transistor, the circuit becomes a simple but temperature compensated battery voltage comparator.  Google or Wiki op amp voltage comparator to see how they work.  If battery voltage is below the trim pot adjusted level then the op amp output goes low.  When you set the voltage, you just have to get it right for the present temperature.  I use an external probe (bead type radial lead NTC resistor) which is sealed in shrink wrap, attached to the battery.

There are two opto-isolated inputs which can shift the voltage higher, for a cyclic charge voltage, and equalize.  You might not want that part.

When you do get there, give a holler.  The time delay on a fixed voltage might work out too.

DC current sensing is as simple as a single op amp and a shunt resistor.

When you get to your battery subsystem, just give a holler.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce

you will be hearing from me for sure!

thanks

bob g

got another piece of the project picked up today on the way back from the surgeons office

although i was a bit late and the pickin's were thin, i think i managed to get enough of what i needed.

what i got was the slot covers that go into the back of a PC, that have both DB15 and DB25 connectors
with ribbon cables attached

they were a buck for each assy, so i got 10 assorted ones, and i think i have enough to do what i want
to do,

i can now replace the slot blockoff plates at the back of the case, and install these that have the DB connectors
and route the ribbon cable up to to buss connector at the back of each slave controller bay.

this will enable an egress from each slave driver, so that i can then attach a DB cable and join the slave chassis
with the switch gear/ relay chassis that will be mounted below it.

so far it looks like this will be a very clean setup, using off the shelf/common and cheap surplus parts for the most part.

the fun of assembly should start just about anytime now!

bob g

Nice find, Bob.  For up to an amp (I woudn't push even that on a single pin), the DB connectors are one of the most reliable.

i figured to keep it to a half amp per pin, and if i have to pull more than that i will use multiple pins

but that will be avoided as much as possilble

thanks for the confirmation on this reality

bob g

a bit of an update on design of my system:

because of the various slave controllers doing independant duty in controlling the system
it would be helpful to have some indication as to what process each slave is doing at any particular time.

the plc guys use a cascade of led's that are numerically linked to an input or output terminal so you can look
at a module and tell which pin is doing what in real time.

as mentioned earlier i want to borrow this methodology and figured on using a piece of 3/8 plexiglass/lexan/ plastic
where i will then drill hole into the back but not quite clear through, so that i can insert led's and build up an array

i wanted to then stencil or silk screen all the info needed to identify each led indicator, and then cover this with another
thin layer of plexiglass/lexan/plastic.

now stenciling or decals can be done, just as silkscreening, but layout is a bit tedious for me.

then it dawned on me to just create the layout in a word processor using the font that i want, laying out spacing a placement
are much easier and cleaner. then it occurred to me to just print it out on a transparency and then sandwich it between the
led mount and cover plate.

i can't imagine a cleaner and easier to setup process to get a custom look that will look very professional or should look that way.

this should really make for a neat appearance where form follows function.

having a layout for a slave for example

power  *
Estop  *
address *
decompress *
glowplug  *
rack  *
starter *
hi/low speed *

of course this is a crude example of what can be done, the (*) is the led indicator
and they would be all inline vertically. also a two color led would be used on positions
such as the starter to indicate a fault should the engine fail to start after 3rd attempt

those are all details, and the purpose of this post is to illustrate a method of labeling the panel
that would be very easy in my opinion

bob g

The long term stability (UV) of the ink is the issue- or are you thinking laser printer to transparency?

I like the concept very much, it's hard to get a professional look with a permanent marker legend below LEDs on an aluminum panel!

Bruce

Quote from: mobile_bob on December 13, 2009, 10:08:20 PM
then it dawned on me to just create the layout in a word processor using the font that i want, laying out spacing a placement
are much easier and cleaner. then it occurred to me to just print it out on a transparency and then sandwich it between the
led mount and cover plate.

i can't imagine a cleaner and easier to setup process to get a custom look that will look very professional or should look that way.

Bob, that's so simple & clever it's bordering on genius. In fact, no, it IS genius.

NICE thinking. And loads easier than messing around with silk screening, etc.

I'm guessing you could even do pretty spectacular multi-coloured effects, given a nice colour laser printer; or, maybe, one of those TekTronix Phaser wax printers, they're supposed to give good results on transparencies.

thanks Guys

btw, not at all sure it is "genius" rather just a product of being lazy 

i just find it easier to adapt and apply other technologies where i can, and this one has been
on my mind for several years now.

i have looked at those little rub on transfers, they would work, but hard for me to get just right

a felt tip pen and freehand is out for obvious reasons, i am no calligrapher (also not much of a speller)

Ade's idea of silk screen seemed like the best approach, although i would need someone to make the screen
and sure as i got it made, some alteration would render the screen obsolete.

i think what got me to thinking in that direction was "fonts" , i figured i could mock up something and print it out
just to get a feel for the look and fit for my panel, when it hit me. "why not print on a transparency"?

ya! thats the ticket!

cheap enough, and easily replaced without major rework of the panel, just remove the front glass and slip out the old
and slip in the new, how easy is that?  then i remembered my old heathkit scope, it had a green piece of plastic with the
scaling done on it, you just loosen the bezel and it was easy to change out, not sure but maybe there were other scaling
versions available?

i am getting pretty excited about this project, just finished ordering a batch of fifty bussed 9pin 10k resistor arrays, to use
as pull down resistors for the input and output pins of the micros, those will really clean up the board and leave much more room
for other stuff. i really didn't like the look of seperate 10k resistors on the proto section of the processor boards.

going to order the interface relays and sockets today, i have decided to use the iso (automotive) relays, as they are common
as dirt and very inexpensive. i decided to use them instead of the more expensive open style relays i already have, because they
take up less space, likely will be more reliable, and take very little power to activate.
being predominately used in automotive applications means that down the road should i need a replacement i should be able to get
one at the local autoparts store or any wrecking yard.

i gotta thank you guys for your kind words and support, it is very motivational to actually getting the project assembled, programmed and working.

much nicer having a forum to discuss this with like minded folks that are of the "get er done" persuation, rather than the "if i tell ya, i gotta shoot ya" sort of group.

to be fair maybe it has more to do with the higher level of knowlege that populates this forum?

i don't know, but i like it!

bob g

Bob, please do let us know what you find that works well with a transparency (overhead projector film).  I do have a Canon photo printer, with the allegedly more UV stable inks, also a black and white laser printer.

For some of my older stuff, I think I'm going to have to buy one of the little label printers, at least.  You keep raising the bar on us, Bob, but it's a good thing.  :)

Another option in project status displays:

There are some good deals on serial LCD displays on ebay. I got a 2 line one for $14.  I tend to use LEDs (high efficiency ones at just a couple ma) as I have my  problems with an unshielded microprocessor in my face for very long, but I do think in most cases a simple serial LCD can use less power, and provide a lot more status information with less wiring and hardware. (More software, but not too much for simple status displays.)

You send ascii text to the display, straight asynchronous serial, TTL.  You can display text and readout numbers instead of just on/off info.   You can define special graphics, and much bigger, fancy graphic displays aren't all that spendy.

My little unit draws a whopping 12ma (w/o backlight). It uses a PIC chip to drive a cheap LCD, and provide the TTL serial interface.

BruceM

a year or so back i picked up maybe a half dozen of the 4x20 line lcd screens, they have a common hitachi chipset
iirc,  i was able to download the spec's on the units, but i am thinking that they are parallel instead of serial ?

i got them for 5 bucks each, and figured someday i would work on integration into the system, but that is likely down the road
a piece for me.

i really like analog guages, particularly antique units that are bakelite cased and ornately done, hard to find but they are just cool
in my opinion.

not very accurate for measurements that require accuracy, but good enough for relative indicaiton of most stuff.

a project for way down the road, would be the removal of the movements from modern analog guages, and remounting
them into cases of my design, with ornate needles and some antique font for the numbering.

a guy can go crazy building wierd stuff, and i am one of those that likes wierd stuff i guess.

bob g

I've printed on transparencies for overhead projectors before to make negative/positive ??? for UV printed cct boards and it works well with a laser printer.
Just remember to print it in "reverse" to put the "ink" at the back of the sheet when you look at it from the front. It seems to display better and if you don't cover it with another piece of perspex, it cannot rub off.
I'm running out of 2c pieces again! ;)

Quote from: mobile_bob on December 14, 2009, 11:09:28 AM
thanks Guys

btw, not at all sure it is "genius" rather just a product of being lazy 

If you want to find the easiest way to get a job done, give it to a lazy man. Another way of looking at it; "genius" is just applied laziness...

It works for me  ;D

Quote from: mobile_bob on December 14, 2009, 11:25:41 AM

i really like analog guages, particularly antique units that are bakelite cased and ornately done, hard to find but they are just cool
in my opinion.

...

a project for way down the road, would be the removal of the movements from modern analog guages, and remounting
them into cases of my design, with ornate needles and some antique font for the numbering.

a guy can go crazy building wierd stuff, and i am one of those that likes wierd stuff i guess.

You & me both, Bob...

Once I eventually get around to doing my system, I plan....:

• An olde-worlde Lister-style control panel, with big analogue gauges, chunky bakelite-type knobs to turn stuff on & off, and some sliders ideally. And maybe a knife switch, just for the hell of it. Big lamp indicators in red, green and amber would also be much in evidence. And, since seeing Tatu's engine + control board, I want it mounted on slate....
  (http://kuva1.kuvablogi.com/iso/img2028801.jpg)
• Automated control will be using an old Sharp MZ-80K computer from the early 1980s. They're pretty robust for old machines, and I love the retro-cool look of the built-in monitor & keyboard. And the tape deck...
  (http://www.sharpmz.org/mz-80k/images/sharp_mz80k_side1.jpg)
  Being Z-80 based, and seeing as Z-80s are still available to purchase today, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to rebuild the machine from new parts, if required.
• Finally, I'd have some kind of modern PC-based system as a backup to the Sharp based machine. It'd be pretty barebones, the only time it'd ever be used is if the MZ-80K has gone pop :)

Both the '80K and PC based control system would interface to control modules. I've not decided what route to take with the control modules. The masochist in me wants to use Z80 (or, even better, Motorola 68000) CPUs with appropriate A2D/D2A converters, memory, clock circuitry & so on. The realist thinks maybe a PIC-type system (or PICaxe, or BASIC Stamp, or whatever the embedded system du jour is) would be a bit easier, especially when I have to learn digital circuit design from scratch. Fortunately, I've already got a pretty good handle on the theory, logic, and programming...

So, you're not the only mad one out there Bob! ;)

Ade, shouldn't there be some exposed vacuum tubes glowing on the Lister control panel?  :)

I wish I had't tossed my old S100 bus North Star Horizon computer 15 years ago.  It was a "full house", 4 MHz Z80 with 64K of ram.  Fortran, Compiled Basic, Pascal, complete statistical anaylsis, regression analysis packages, finance and business packages. It was a gem I used for a long, long time.

I had a 4 MHz Z80 card in my Apple IIe.  WordStar positively flew on that system.  Had 128k of memory on the extended video card.  Ran BASIC, then discovered VisiCalc and dBase II.  Great fun in those days.  But I've gotta say when Lotus 123 came out on the (8080?) PC, the magic sort of faded.

Quinn

Quote from: BruceM on December 14, 2009, 02:38:05 PM
Ade, shouldn't there be some exposed vacuum tubes glowing on the Lister control panel?  :)

Oh, now you've gone and done it.... some vacuum tubes for sure, and I may have to add some nixie tubes now!

Quote from: quinnf on December 14, 2009, 03:22:04 PM
But I've gotta say when Lotus 123 came out on the (8080?) PC, the magic sort of faded.

This was basically true of the PC as a whole. You kind of knew, as the PC became the dominant desktop machine, that some of the fun factor was just gone. I grew up with BBC B's, the Sinclair QL, Commodore PET-type machines (an 8032-SK, specifically), ZX Spectrums, the Apple ][ europlus, and of course the Sharp MZ-80K which I bagged for free from my secondary school (not sure what that equates to in US terms - early high school, probably; ages 11 to 16 basically). Of all the machines, my favourites where the Commodore (so sleeeeeek!), but the '80K pipped it because of that crazy keyboard & the built-in tape deck.

Just a thought, this is going big-style (http://helmies.org.uk/offtopic.gif) If anyone wants to gas about old computers & how much better they were (in fun terms) than the new beige box stuff, head on over to general I guess ;D

i got a pile of nixie tubes that read out the top end, i think i have 10 of them in total
and two that are quite unique
they display a sinewave, a bar for dc, the ohm symbol, A for amps, and a few others i don't recall
maybe even HZ but not sure on that one.

i can see a real frankensteins monster coming on

:)

bob g

Hell no, AdeV, don't go to General,  this is Daryl's and my little corner, and we encourage rambling about old favorite computers.   Besides, Bob starting it by reusing old PC hardware in an ingenious way.  ::)

I remember when I saw one of the first IBM PCs, with a color display.  I felt the cheesy keyboard, the crude display, and proclaimed  it junk, and that why would anyone want a crapy color display.  (There were lots of superior, mostly monochrome display machines at the time.)  My former boss said, "but it's IBM."

Did I miss that call, or what?!  

Without color or graphics, we sure could get a lot done with not much computer.  Likewise, CPM was sweet, and didn't get in your way, could be ported to a new machine in days.  Single task OS with a background print scroller...I'd like that today, if it was available.  It would make a turtle fly.
I can only do one thing at a time, anyway.

Bob, the $5 LCDs are certainly parallel interface, but you can buy a std. serial driver board for them.

went to the last vestige of surplus here in the seattle tacoma area this afternoon, it is a miserable place
where anything that is anygood is allowed to weather for itself out in the rain, snow, whatever, usually in barrels
and buckets that can and do fill with rain water,

so if you find something there it is usually beyond hope

today i found a rotton wood crate, so the water could no collect, full of 2 and 3 foot looms of color coded wire
i gathered up a good sized arm load, and took it to get weighed,  turned out to have 15lbs of the stuff.

got it for 10 bucks plus tax which i thought was very good, certainly much cheaper than buying multiple spools of different color
wire to work with.

all 18 guage tinned multistrand wire,

not a bad haul if i do say so myself, and will make the interconnections much easier to layout when it comes time to build this monster.

finding this sort of thing locally anymore is getting very hard to do.

bob g

A good source for cheap hookup wire (18 gauge and smaller)  is Jameco.  Of course nothing like the mega color bundle bargain Bob found. 

I ordered myself a Brother label maker machine (PT2700) for Xmas yesterday-  $50 after instant rebate at Staples, free shipping.  Fancy model that does 1/4", 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, and 1" wide tapes, stand alone or USB to PC.  They have a special flexible tape for wire labeling, which clinched the deal for me.

I had a rough day, but did manage to get out to my Concho place and built a cabinet for my custom AC battery charger (for 120V battery bank).  It's good to make some sawdust fly, build something and have the Listeroid pump some air.  Next trip I'll get all the gear mounted, today I ran out of steam.

Bruce M

Quote from: BruceM on December 14, 2009, 08:09:18 PM
Hell no, AdeV, don't go to General,  this is Daryl's and my little corner, and we encourage rambling about old favorite computers.   Besides, Bob starting it by reusing old PC hardware in an ingenious way.  ::)

Yup, it's Bob's fault !
No one that creative should be allowed to show the rest of us up ! (IMHO  :) )

My first computer was a SOL-20, S-100 buss, I soldered it together myself - by the time I got rid of it I had 64kb memory and all sorts of assemblers, compilers, chess programs, etc.
Then an OSI with built in (defective) basic. I helped a local farmer build a financial program for it.
Then the Commodore 64. My wife was doing desktop publishing with it while IBM folks were dreaming about it.
Next came the Amiga and it's video and awesome graphics, we were multitasking while IBM folks dreamed about it.
And of course, all of the IBM, Univac and DEC systems - yikes ! I suddenly realize that I'm getting old, Sob....

Did I really use punchcards and card sorters and such through collage ???
Hmmm, perhaps the good old days weren't *quite* that good at times.
I do believe that the muscular strength of my left side is from the days of carrying two boxes of punch cards around all the time between classes.

My gout is acting up so I'm up in the middle of the night, annoying folks on this fine forum.
Daryl

Hi Daryl I don't think there's many folks around as you guys are all sleepin', but I'm up, it's 10h30 in the mornin';)
Wilhelm

my first was a timex/sinclair, the cute little bugger that you connected to a tv for a monitor
and a cassette tape deck for storage, it came with a whopping kilobyte of memory, and i bought the massive
i am talking huge, monsterous 4kb expansion module for another hundred bucks.

it worked, although finicky as hell with that joke of a touch sensitive keyboard made for the tiniest of fingers.

moved up from there a few years later to an ibm pc, the first one, with a 10 meg hard drive, wow
still it had 640 kb of memory, and a better keyboard what at least worked reliably even if the rest of the machine
was a joke.

wasn't till i got involved with ibm's ps2 line of microchannel machines that i found a home, with os2 warp, i was thrilled
right up till the day ibm quit the machine and later the operating system.

i haven't been right since,, course i probably was a half bubble off to start with.

:)

bob g

I was lucky(?) enough to miss the punch-card generation, by a good 10 years I think. The college I went to had a DEC VAX 8800, of which they were extremely proud. One was given an account on that machine, and a cubby hole into which your printouts were placed; you could tell if your batch job had gone wrong, as the pile of paper in your cubby hole was massive...

I have fond memories of writing a football (soccer) "simulator" in DCL - which half of my year played as a "fantasy football" thing, trading players off each other. Another, far cleverer than I, chap wrote an interactive "magazine" entirely in DCL. None of us considered that it looked remarkably like a primitive form of WWW - none of us having seen any WWW content at that point... no graphics, though, as it had to work on standard WYSE terminals.

AH, happy days. There's probably more power in my desktop computer than there was in that VAX, but I really got to like that machine - insofar as any machine is likable...


PS: It's 8:30am here, and I'm only up because I'm expecting the plumber anytime soon to come fix the central heating...

VAX?  Yeah my employer had one of them.  We'd collect data from our instruments on an IBM mainframe.  The raw numbers would accumulate in user accounts and dump to a lineprinter.  We'd take the printout and go over to the VAX and manually enter the numbers to number crunch and print out nice pretty graphs on another printer.  Then we'd take the graph and processed data and go over to the Wang word processor to write the text of our report.  The data and graphs couldn't be embedded in the report.  They were attached as an appendix.  And data was archived on (yet) another IBM mainframe.  And none of these machines talked to each other!

One day, out of frustration a guy brought his Mac SE and Imagewriter color printer from home and started doing his work on it.  He had a critical deadline to meet, and expected to take the computer home after he was finished.  The guy suddenly became very popular, and the computer stayed.  Soon, there was a clipboard with a signup sheet screwed to his office door.  People were willing to work on the Mac during lunch and after work in preference to the VAX/Wang because it was so much faster to use and the output was so much nicer.  

Within a year, the entire IS group had been laid off and Macs were in every office.  Ten years later, the Macs were replaced by networked PCs.  And a few geeks were hired to ride herd on the network.  A few years later a new IS group was formed.  Then server-based applications and multiple databases began to appear on the network.  None of the databases share data or are globally searchable.  IS doesn't see that as a problem.  

Is history repeating itself?

Merry Christmas!

Quinn

Ah, yes, the Timex Sinclair, I remember it well.  TV video, scanned out by the Z80 addressing, only when the program (basic interpreter) wasn't running; blank screen until program finished.  Clever minimalist hardware and cheap, I had a lot of fun with it.

I did mess with a Comodore 64, but didn't own one.

Next (for my home hardware) was the TRS-80 from Radio Shack. I disassembled (Z80) their "Electric Pencil" word processor, which only did cassette.  I wrote a diskette file system for it,  modded the video for upper and lower case characters.  Made a decent word processor for cheap.  Alas, before I could sell more than a few,  RS came out with a new diskette based version.

After the TRS-80 I upgraded to the North Star Horizon S-100 bus machine, a clone of the "Terminal Interface Multiplexors" (TIMs) which my then boss and I had spread throughout our lab-  the AF had slapped a moratorium on small computers because of fear of proliferation and idiotic "big iron" thinking.  So we built our own non-computer TIMs from S100 components, and officially used them for "off line" data and program entry, which programs could then be transferred to the main computer for compilation.  Of course, to further save time, you could do a local Fortran compile "to check for syntax errors", and the mathematicians needed regression and statistical analysis...

It was a highly successful program (around 1978) , every engineer and mathematician got a full house computer, crudely networked to the main flight simulator computer and it ushered in a new era of projects and productivity for our lab.  

I started working at that AF research lab about 1977, where some old tube and transistor analog fight simulators where still being used in some lower priority research projects. I when I first started as a college student summer hire, I operated one system that had to be booted from paper tape, then mag tape, and finally a vacuum drum (hard disk the size of a beer keg).  It was a great experience to see and use some of the (recent) history of real time computing. We still did punch cards, but only for a couple years more.

Quinn just posted about small computer networks vs Big Iron.  I saw the same stupidity at Motorola and McDonnel Douglas Helicopter.  My "renegade" projects (the ones where money was no object but schedule was not negotiable) always bypassed the big iron- because with a large software group, the big VAX or whatever would ALWAYS be on it's knees come major milestones and deadlines. (The big hard drive bottleneck.)  With dedicated computers, your own compile and load build time (or your small groups) build of new software was always predictable and fast.  

Yet upper management and IT are often more concerned about "control" than productivity, and the urge to centralize and "control" seems eternal.  As Quinn suggests, I think stupid ideas (big iron, central computer)  just keep coming back around again.

We never had one iota of problems with software version and baseline control in any of the distributed development systems I used.  

A failure of a single system meant nothing to the project, and often  dedicated systems were loaded with actual interface hardware, allowing a developer his own hardware, right at his desk or in his own spot in the lab, for early testing and integration, making subsystem hardware and software development much faster, and virtually eliminating the typical "systems integration" schedule debacle.

Big Iron is dead (yea!)-  ling live Big Iron (boo).

Mobile Bob,
any update on the project, i just came across it and its cool

Philip

haven't started serious assembly... yet
however i have done some subassembly work for testing, and am very happy with the results

my mode of operation is quite different and maddening to some folks, actually most folks i guess

i don't start a build on anything until it is perfected in my mind, all drawn out, and where i feel i have
a near 100% chance of success, so

this leaves me at times waiting a very long time by most folks standards before i start a project.

the upside to my approach is, generally what starts out as a complex problem turns out to have a rather
simple solution.

also i had been waiting for a source of a specific little part and found some on ebay recently, got them in
so now i can start assembly.

i think i have all the hardware sorted out now, at least i hope so  :)

bob g

well good luck with it,
you have a lot of interested people here waiting for the next installment.

Philip

I just bought one of these:
(http://cache.freescale.com/files/graphic/product_freescale/16671_DEMO9S12_TN.jpg)
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=DEMO9S12HY64&fsrch=1 (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=DEMO9S12HY64&fsrch=1)

Cost $99
Software: Free  
Code: Assembly language (unlimited)
         C (32k limit)
Many additional development / Demo boards available

This page gives an idea of the extent that large scale integration has gone in simplifying the hardware side of things for small engine control.
(http://www.embeddedstar.com/postimages/2009/Freescale-Small-Engine-Cont.gif)
http://www.embeddedstar.com/weblog/2009/08/28/mcz33812-s12-mcu/ (http://www.embeddedstar.com/weblog/2009/08/28/mcz33812-s12-mcu/)

thanks for this link, it might well be the dual fuel solution i have been looking for
it also has the O2 sensor which is really cool.

bob g

On this page http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=KIT33812ECUEVME&parentCode=MC33812&fpsp=1&nodeId=01435979968460 (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=KIT33812ECUEVME&parentCode=MC33812&fpsp=1&nodeId=01435979968460)
Freescale offers a complete development board with all of the pertinent devices installed and a basic set of code to allow you to run an engine.  Cost $235.31

(http://cache.freescale.com/files/graphic/block_diagram/KIT33812ECUEVME_BD.gif)

Their highly detailed handbook for this kit and software is too large to attach but it can be found here:
http://cache.freescale.com/files/analog/doc/user_guide/KT33812ECUUG.pdf?fpsp=1 (http://cache.freescale.com/files/analog/doc/user_guide/KT33812ECUUG.pdf?fpsp=1)