i don't know about the rest of you guys, but i have been giving some thought to building a gas powered
genset. it would be nice to have a test bed for alternator development and when that function is done
it could be pressed into service as a backup battery charger or an inverter/generator.
i got a NOS 16hp B&S to work with, but could use an electric start for it.
anybody got a link to one of those delco starter/generators they used to belt drive these
big single cyl briggs engines with?
there might be something to be learned from working with something like this, in the way of variable rpm
based on load demand. i am thinking maybe a spring biased throttle solenoid that has its coil in series with the
alternator output, so that when the alternator output is low amps the spring pulls back to low rpm, and when
the alternator output is high it pulls the bias spring and the throttle to high rpms, mid range load ends up somewhere
in the middle.
seems pretty useful to me
i think maybe i will throw one together, anyone else want to do the same and work together to get the bugs worked out?
bob g
Hello Bob G,
I think that is a great idea!
There are times were a gas powered generator might come in handy. Check out the pictures below. This person got very creative and as far as I am concerned he made a generator that works fine for his needs. He has a small Toyota pickup, Its probably gas powered and I don't see a fuel tank for the generator so my guess is he tapped fuel from the trucks tank. I say that is a good idea. He only has to fill the trucks tank. Very nice indeed. The gen-head is an ST-10 and the engine is a 25hp vertical shaft. My guess on engine make is Kohler with pressurized oil lube and spin on oil filter, electric start and built in alternator for battery charging.
The foot-print of the whole gen-set is small. Using a vertical shaft engine and mounting the gen-head vertical allows him to have more space on his truck.
The ST-5 through ST-12 gen-head drive ends already come with a 6309 deep groove ball bearing so these gen-heads might be designed to be mounted horizontal or vertical.
The engine he is using will spin 3600 RPM's all day long with no problem.
The reason I like this is it did not cost much to make, Compact for its size, can use same fuel as his truck and simple to work on.
I feel this guy did a pretty good job.
Henry
He has built it over a year and half ago. As I am writing someone is trying to contact him. We will try to get him to join so he can go over everything. Lets not pass judgment untill we contact him and see how it is doing.
The ST-5 through ST-12 gen-head drive ends already come with a 6309 deep groove ball bearing so these gen-heads might be designed to be mounted horizontal or vertical.
This is not a stationary unit. What he built should last better than most store bought Generators. And cost much less.
This is a good thing to find out Jens. Can these gen-heads run vertical? I reworked my last post a bit. This Guy is doing it. And it might be ok.
Hopefully we will here from him.
Henry
Quote from: mobile_bob on September 23, 2009, 12:50:49 PM
i got a NOS 16hp B&S to work with, but could use an electric start for it.
anybody got a link to one of those delco starter/generators they used to belt drive these
big single cyl briggs engines with?
A 12hp(1cyl) is the biggest I've seen with a starter/generator. The 16hp B&s may be too much for a starter/generator, if you have one to try you won't have anything to lose. If it doesn't work have a look on ebay you may find enough parts to convert it over the hard way.
-dan
sounds like a good idea to me, also expands multi fuel ability . In addition to the 3 diesel gen sets I am in the process of assembling I have 3 gas generators and one propane
AWE comeon Jens
hwew, went to all the trouble to rub two sticks together and make a nice little bondfire
in this catagory, and you come along and pee on it, and put it out?
geesh :)
as for the vertical mounting of the genhead, i see no real reason why not?
it would seem to me the chinese would not want limit the application and by
extension the sales of their genheads all for the want of a brg that can support
the weight of the rotor?
my bet is they will run just as long in either orientation, and even if it didn't the chinese
brgs need to be replaced anyway and certainly the proper brg is available to allow vertical mounting.
personally i think it is a very innovative application this guy has done. sure would like to hear more
about it.
admin
Thats ok, Here is a nice little gas powered genset I can bring with me in my back pack when I am camping. That way I don't have to rub two sticks together to start a fire to see during the night. sure hate to piss on this thing during the night.
now isn't that cute??
i vote we petition for a section for the tiny tiger!!!
right ahead of those nasty listers :)
"oh mr. admin,, yooohooo"
lmao
bob g
i see a lot of pump motors mounted vertically without tapered roller brgs
i also see a lot of component saw motors running from 5 to 15hp 3450 and 1740rpm mounted on
scissors so they can run from horizontal all the way to near vertical, and they have mounted hubs
and large rotating blades,, none of which use tapered roller, just ball brgs
there are differing types of ball brgs, some made for some vertical loading, and some for even more vertical
loading, suffice it to say far more loading than the weight of an st rotor would present.
i would bet they all use a deep groove brg on the drive end, so the genhead could be mounted in any orientation.
seems like there would be markets around the world that might run vertical mounting, and i have never seen
a spec on an st ad specifying mounting orientation.
i suppose if i were really concerned i would be replaceing the brgs anyway, and would just ask for a brg spec'd for vertical loading.
the st heads use standard brgs so there would be no reason that the type of brg needed could not be found readily.
my .02 as well.
who knows what the guy in the welding truck did to mount his st head? he might well have replaced the brgs, he might figure
a couple thousand hours is more than he will ever run the genset, or if they are not up to snuff, he will just replace them periodically.
in any event that is a nice compact unit, using a readily available and reasonably priced power plant in my opinion.
makes me want to build one!
maybe i will scrap my 16hp briggs project and get a vertical engine from surpluscenter.com ?
bob g
if you are concerned and want to run an st head vertically here is the solution
an angular contact ball brg
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=1_3_1
click on the link on single row brg so see a drawing
bob g
I run into this issue all the time with my customers wanting to orient pumps and motors in various configurations.
I would be very cautious about flipping and ST head on it's end regardless of having a deep groove bearing.
Deep groove bearings allow only a small portion of the total load bearing capacity to be shifted from axial to thrust loads.
By going vertical, ALL the rotor weight is placed in the thrust zone of one single bearing (Lower bearing). The top bearing will not support any load unless it's inner race is pressed onto the shaft with an interference fit.
The fellow in the pictures might get lucky and have the bearing last a long time. Then again, the bearing could fail in 20 hours.
It's a crap shoot at best without doing an L10 bearing life calculation and applying a split load something like 10% radial load (belt tension) and 90% of the rotor weight as thrust loads into the formula. (IMHO)
Bob,
I built a direct drive 4kw genny using a Briggs 10HP IC (Cast bore) engine and a Voltmaster 4kw head.
One thing I don't like about it is that the engine has to spin at 3600 rpm as a direct drive unit.
The darn thing is noisier that my Changfa. (not kidding)
Don't use it much. I was considering converting it to natural gas and rigging up a quick connect hose for connection to my gas line in the garage. Another fuel source.
Cheers,
Veggie
i guess until we hear from the builder of that unit we won't know what he has done
with the brg if anything, and how long it has lasted.
there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the unit can successfully run vertically with an angular contact
brg, and may do acceptably well for a part time welder supply even with the chinese brg.
from what i have heard it has been in use for a year and a half or better, so something is right, or
good enough for the builders expectations.
if one had an old vertical engine, i can sure see the appeal of building one with the st head mounted that way.
bob g
Bob g,
Sorry to deviate from your original topic.
Back to the Gas powered Delco alternator........
The project I had in mind is similar.
During a business closeout, I got my hands on a few Honda GX160 engines (free).
Very reliable and VERY quiet. I was considering hooking one of them to an automotive alternator and running a variable speed setup for battery bank charging and greenhouse lighting/heating. If I could capture the heat from the engine, that would be even better.
Honda has some amazing self contained CHP systems based on 4 stroke engines running an natural gas which act as the power plant for a house. The engine runs continuous (variable speed) and heats the water for space heating and domestic use.
Getting a bit radical....
Ideally I'd like to have it in a small soundproof cabinet.
Although the GX160 is air cooled, I want to experiment with removing the air cowling, grinding away any irregularities on the cooling fins, and wrapping the whole cylinder and head (between the fins) with copper tubing for water circulation.
If the engine dies, nothing lost. But if I am able to keep it cool, I have a micro CHP unit.
Veggie
cool concept
there is a fellow on otherpower.com forum (which is down now so they can change servers) who
upon my recommendation bought a prestolite 110-555jho and connected it to a 5.5 hp engine
as of last week he was getting something around 120amps out of it without overloading the engine.
setting the drive ratio is critical, most folks get that wrong and never get the full potential out of their units.
the only issue he had to resolve was getting the fan right, he was turning the alternator backwards and not getting
enough cooling in my opinion for 120amps continuous, but in an initial 4 hour run charging a ~1000amp/hr battery bank
the thing did well.
interestingly and right on target with how this thread has gone, he used a vertical shaft mower engine and stood the
alternator up vertically too!
i voiced my concern with the brg on that alternator as well, but i suspect it will run a very long time in any event.
if and when their site comes back up i want to contact him and get him onboard here, so he can share his project
and test results
bob g
jens,
You are missing the point. For long term use like we do it might not be the best setup. But this guy is a welder. He is limited on space on the truck and it did not cost him much to build. it is easy to service.
How many hours do you think it sees in a year? And if he put 300 hrs on I bet it paid for itself many times over. Let me ask you somthing jens. Where would you put your money in this persons line of work. On the one this person built, or a $1500.00+ genset from home depot?
Sometimes its good to come out of the shell and see that some people don't need a Twin Cylinder Listeroid or a changfa S1115 hooked up to an ST-10 gen-head on a back of a small pickup to get work done. I don't think he is looking for 4000 hrs life from the genset. Yet again I hate to break it to you that engine he is using is known to last over 2000 hrs @ 3600 RPM's.
You have to give credit where it is due. I have the persons number and left a message on his cell. I am hoping to hear from him so we can get the facts. As Bob said, there are better side load bearings to put in down the road.
Please lighten up. You don't have to make sure every gen-set that is posted here has to last 20,000 hrs.
Henry
For anyone interested, here's a presentation on Honda's micro CHP unit designed for residential use.
Runs on natural gas, has a water cooled 4 stroke engine with integeral alternator windings, and provides water heating.
Runs as quite and a fridge.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.builditsolar.com%2FExperimental%2FCoGeneration%2FHondaCHPbbezilla.pdf&ei=wp27Sp3fBIO4swOHpdDcBQ&rct=j&q=honda+micro+CHP&usg=AFQjCNFG1yEs5R3zUrOdJdEzjvxYJplKiA (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.builditsolar.com%2FExperimental%2FCoGeneration%2FHondaCHPbbezilla.pdf&ei=wp27Sp3fBIO4swOHpdDcBQ&rct=j&q=honda+micro+CHP&usg=AFQjCNFG1yEs5R3zUrOdJdEzjvxYJplKiA)
Veggie
Looks pretty intresting. I need to read about it tonight.
Henry
been following the development from concept to prototype to production of the honda
unit since back about'98 or '99
really neat little unit, a bit small for most of us, but clearly illustrates what is possible with cogeneration
as far as i am concerned it is the gold standard we diy'er cogen wannabee's should aspire to,
their prototype unit reached an overall efficiency of 90% and i see the production unit is rated at 85% overall efficiency
thats with a natural gas ICE as the prime mover, and a very small one at that.
i see no reason that a diy'er cogen couldn't reach into the low 80's in overall efficiency, last testing i did on mine
i was knocking on the door of the mid 70's and there is more improvement to be made.
this is where it is at, as far as i am concerned this will be the one exemption that might be allowed from the epa for
these engine's if we tag along and get our foot in the door.
scale that honda unit up a bit to maybe 3kwatt electrical and 15kbtu heat recovery, and it would be a much more marketable
product here in america in my opinion.
really cool unit though
bob g
and its another example of a vertically mounted generator,, whats the deal anyway???
jeesh,, maybe we're the ones behind the times???
lmao
maybe its a "spark ignition" thing?
maybe those gasser boys never got the memo about mounting horizontally?
and the original guy with the welder truck is a welder, and we all know those guys
have a different orientation than most of us, maybe vertical to us is horizontal to him?
lol
damn Jen's and i was planning on building one of those vertical mounted units for my basement,
but wait,, i don't have a basement!
too funny!
maybe we all need to lighten up a bit, and get on with the business of building a really good forum?
I Agree,
Jens, I did not mean to get you worked up.
Henry
Quote from: Jens on September 24, 2009, 01:28:21 PM
Agreed on most points Bob except one ..... I think that the low power unit is more versatile than you admit. You don't want to generate more heat you can use and if you have a larger engine and run it continuously you might get to the point where you can't use all the heat.
With the whole thing hooked up as a net metering situation, you can generate all the electricity you need from a small unit running continuously.
Jens
I would think a little over sized than what you need is ok. You can always dump the extra heat. Yes you would loose some efficency. If you can get close to what you need, efficency loss would be less. Some good points made. I see this will be an intresting topic.
The problem is in most places of the country energy requirments are differant throughout the year. Does this mean to keep the efficency up you will need more than one unit?
Henry
Re: High efficiencies.
One item of importance on the Honda CHP units is that they encapsulate the alternator in the same water cooled housing as the engine, hence recovering any lost heat from the gen head. If inefficiencies in a generator emerge as waste heat, and if that heat is recovered for use, then I assume the power generation portion of the Honda could be running upwards of 98% efficient. ??
Veggie
I guess one way to harvest heat from a warm gen-head during the heating seasons. This is if you have forced hot air, Is to hook up a feed and return air duct to the gen-head. Plumb one end the Gen-head to the return side of the air handler and the other end of the gen-head plumbed to another room away from the return. The return will draw the air from the gen-head.
Henry
Your right, you would have noise. I did not think about noise.
Thinking back a couple weeks ago when I was running some load tests. I found out my ST-12 head running at 6900 watts for an hour only got to 92 deg. F on an 88 deg. F afternoon. Not much heat coming from it.
Henry
Quote from: hwew on September 23, 2009, 08:36:55 PM
Thats ok, Here is a nice little gas powered genset I can bring with me in my back pack when I am camping. That way I don't have to rub two sticks together to start a fire to see during the night. sure hate to piss on this thing during the night.
there was a fellow on ebay recently with some of thes O+R gen in military dress , olive drab , new in the box .
I picked one of these up from HF last week $99 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66619
this sounds like the perfect place for an ammonia absorption system Jens, a couple of tubes go in to a coil, the heat gets absorbed & you make cold air on the other end, No?
Scott R.
Mobile-Bob,
>i got a NOS 16hp B&S to work with, but could use an electric start for it.
anybody got a link to one of those delco starter/generators they used to belt drive these
big single cyl briggs engines with?<
Do you still want to try one of these? Digging around, I have a complete unit on a 12hp(?) Kohler.
Terry
Quote
A 12hp(1cyl) is the biggest I've seen with a starter/generator. The 16hp B&s may be too much for a starter/generator, if you have one to try you won't have anything to lose. If it doesn't work have a look on ebay you may find enough parts to convert it over the hard way.
-dan
I had a Honda TN-360 truck in Okinawa. It was the 360cc Air cooled motorcycle engine, with a starter/generator. No maintenance needed on that part for the year I used it. Getting flats repaired in the split-rim wheels was the real pain
Well guys here is an email from Charles.
He is the person that ownes the Verticle Shaft Gen-set.
Here it is:
The generator has been doing great, I am still very pleased with it. Business has been slow and I have been busy with other projects, so I haven't been using it daily. I blew the diode bridge a few weeks back when I shorted my welder cord, but there was no major damage to the head. To replace it, I found a very nice military surplus GE bridge that I hope to install this weekend. Hope all is well there, thanks for the email.
Charles
To answer the original topic (sorry, bit late to the party on this one, that truck genset looks coool): IMHO, a petrol (sheesh, gas, whatever ;D) genset will be less pleasant than a diesel one for several reasons.
The main reason: A petrol engine tends to generate its best power high up the rev range, so you need to rev the nuts off it to make it work.
If you decide you can get away with running a bit off tickover (say, 1500rpm), you'll have big problems trying to control it.
Auto-start & warmup are a bitch because you need to control the choke AND the throttle. Mind you, I don't know much about the B&S, other than the fact that most "engine" guys hate them. Maybe they're peaches to start & run?
My bus-mounted diesel generator started life as a 1.4l 4-pot petrol engine (ex Rover IIRC), and it was always a nightmare. Speed control was by far the biggest problem; it'd bog right down when you asked it for power, and when the load disappeared it would rev its tits off until the governer caught up. Replacing with a 4-banger diesel unit and all of those probs went away. Or we could have fixed it by running the engine at 3000rpm I suppose, apart from the noise & wear of course.
Ade:
generally i would agree with most all you have stated, but there are some nice exceptions
miller welders sold many years ago a gas drive welder, used a 12hp kohler cast iron engine, i still use one
and did just today
it welds at 3600rpm driving a 4pole head directly for a nice ac welding current of 120hz
and it provide 3.5kwatts at engine idle 1800rpm 120volts at 60hz (more or less stable, the old governor aint what it used to be)
also i have a sweet little kohler cast iron genset, it runs at 1800rpm and is rated at 4kwatts
very much like a direct drive startomatic in that the genhead doubles as a starter, although it is direct drive.
so maybe one could take a 25hp Vtwin gas/petrol engine and drive a 6-8kwatt head and run at 1800 to 2400 or
so with belt drive like the OP example, that might be a nice compromise in noise/power?
of course when it comes to his truck weight is a huge factor, leaving out slower speed diesels i would think
looks to me like he has about all the little truck can handle now with the aircooled genset?
in any event i would like to see that little rig work! looks like a pretty cool unit all in all
bob g
Do store-bought count in this category?
I got a Honeywell 2KW inverter genset from Home Depot when they had a big sale - $300 I guess they go on sale there every couple of months.
review @ amazon
http://www.amazon.com/review/R37XOA5ZCK09ZH/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm
Mike:
sure why not!
got ahead and start a new thread in this board and do a writeup on the thing
there might be others interested in hearing about it.
admin
So back to the gas engine gen sets....
I ran 2 of my Onans today, getting ready for winter I guess.
I had to open the carb on the 6.5 NH, and remove the floats and admission valve. A bit-o-crap was blocking the fuel on it's way into the carb and it couldn't maintain speed, let alone carry a load. Go figure; it has a fuel filter.
All good now, I load tested it @ 4200 Watts for about an hour on some 2 year old gas. I think it's up to speed for the winter.
The next one is a 5.0 Kw Onan CCK 120 volt only unit I got for free about 2006. I had to make new plug wires for it and change the plugs. That was the only problem, and probably why I got it so cheap. I had mounted it on an old Murray riding lawn mower frame so I can move it around. It ran fine right from the get-go. It got the same 3 plug in heaters which add up to 4200 watts when checked with the Kill-a-watt, even tho the ratings add up to 4500.
I do believe I like the cast iron 5.0 CCK better than the newer aluminum block 6.5 NH.
I have an even older 4.0 CCK, which was made when Onan was part of Studebaker. It needs a mower base or garden cart or something to mount it on....
One of them is going to get propane adapted to it also. I have the propane bug just right now (who knows why...I'm just going with it). ???
So my Onan CCK 4.0 is a rip out from an ancient motorhome. When I got it, it would not start. I pulled the heads and found the exhaust valves stuck open. I twisted them with a pipe wrench, ever so slowly while squirting Kroil at the valve stems, hoping some would work it's way into the valve guides.
Eventually they came around, so I decarboned the heads and put it back together using the same head gaskets.
Now I have a Genny that needs a cart, so today I got some 4" steel channel and some 6" castors & fixed wheels. I welded the frame this evening, maybe I can get it on the wheels and the genny mounted tomorrow. After the Murray mower mount, I made sure to leave room for the oil drain and the cooling air outlet. The battery goes on the new frame behind the generator end bell. The castors leave the frame closer to the ground, so the muffler won't fit under like in the motor home. The exhaust pipe will have to be forward of, or above the genny.
Fuel is by dropping the fuel suction hose into a gas can. when it's empty, bring another gas can and put the hose in. I think it is safer than pouring gas into a fuel tank on the generator? I'm willing to entertain opinions on fuel handling and gas gennys. If someone has a better plan or reasons why this way is un-usable, I'd like to hear it. The pic shows the 5.0 CCK on the murray riding mower chassis, behind on the right is the 4.0 CCK with the new welded frame leaning up against it.
Today was Onan Generator Mounting Day.
I had to go back to the steel yard for some more U channel, I hadn't thought out the wheel mounting.
While I was there I saw a piec of 1" square tube which had a U bend, perfect for a push handle for the cart.
Here's a 'small' pic. The last try was rejected as 'too large'. :P
Still more to do; exhaust, battery & cables, Service outlets, etc.
This afternoon, before I went ot work, I got the Onan 4.0 CCK running. It had no compression, so I removed the air shields and heads, which is quicker than removing a head on a listeroid. ;)
The exhaust valves were stuck open, so I squirted them with WD-40 and tapped them back down with the wood handle end of my hammer, until they were free again.
I re-assembled the engine and it started right up! Perfect 122 volts and 60 Hz. No blowby either.
This was removed from an early 1970's Dodge motorhome wreck that hippies had been living in.
I'm looking for a 5.0 CCK 3r (120/240 Volt) in my area. I'm really hooked on these quiet and tough generators. At 420 pounds, you couldn't really call them portable, but on a caster cart they are 'mobile'.
Well, I called a Craigslist ad for another ONAN CCK.
This one is the 5.0 CCK 3CR that I've been looking for. It's the 120/240 Volt model with remote start panel.
It's not 'stuck', but also not running, so I ended up getting it for $120.
I know this thread has been dormant for a while, but I'm just sayin' ;)
how can you pass that up?
i picked up a miller aead le welder/generator powered by an onan, ran like a top but would not weld
for 200 bucks off craiglist a few months ago,
found a loose spade connector and back to welding she goes.
225amps ac/dc at 100% duty cycle, how can you beat that?
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on September 05, 2010, 10:32:53 AM
how can you pass that up?
i picked up a miller aead le welder/generator powered by an onan, ran like a top but would not weld
for 200 bucks off craiglist a few months ago,
found a loose spade connector and back to welding she goes.
225amps ac/dc at 100% duty cycle, how can you beat that?
bob g
That's gonna be very hard to beat Bob! Nice score. Pics?
i will see if i can get a pic of the beast this afternoon,
it only came with about 15ft of leads though
i guess you don't get everything for 200 bucks huh?
bob g
WAAA! :'(
Aren't we cryin'!!
I guess I was watching craigslist on a different day. One of those Miller or Lincoln generator welders would be most welcome @ my place too!
Just keep your eyes open, some nice long welding leads are sure to show up (when you're low on money!)
leads i got plenty of, so that was of no concern at the time
however i wouldn't have complained had the machine come with 50' of 2/0
:)
bob g
got around to clearing out the shop enough to untarp the miller welder and move it in under cover
the monsoon season will soon be here.
the previous owner had installed a new starting battery, the guy he got it from put on a new fuel tank
aside from needing a new shaft seal on the fuel bowl shutoff it runs flawlessly.
it is 225amps AC and 200amps DC at 100% duty cycle, at 3000rpm and will also provide 120vdc for a drill or angle grinder
simultaneously, and at 1800rpm it will provide 120/240 60hz at 5kwatt
probably not the most efficient power generation unit, but certainly a nice dual purpose unit that will fit in well for what my intended
use is,
i have a large external wire feeder, and a spool gun, along with a tig torch and high freq unit that i will be working on powering with this
puppy at some point after the move and after i get settled in,, perhaps a good winter project.
bob g
Wow Bob that is a good find.
Henry