Micro CoGen.

I was looking for an antique section in the engine list and then realized most of the engines listed are in fact antiques.  So; If I owned a Dodge diesel this would be a mandatory accessory for the garage. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-GsINYNuf8&t=1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-GsINYNuf8&t=1s)

Casey

Sure makes a Lister look simple and straightforward.
I think anything slow and long stroke is antique these days. Don't know of any modern small engine that's not a screamer.

I was only thinking the other day, I wonder how many of these old engines are still going tot he tip/ scrappy's?  People must pass on and the families don't know/ want to know what these tings are and just get rid of them.  Probably many are still in running or easily restoreable condition but people don't know their scarcity and value and they have no value to them.

If we think these treasures are hard to find now, just wait 20 years.... not that a lot of us will still be around then or give a damn much if we are!    ::)
Not that I have much of significance but I know all mine will probably get cleared out by the fastest means possible.

an old dude here in town, who passed on about 4 years ago now, had over 200 stationary engine's of all makes and models typical of the region and of ag or farm use.

his widow contacted an auctioneer who specializes in this sort of thing, or supposedly was supposed to be.  the thinking was they would be better at getting the word out to a broader group of buyers.

the day of the auction i would be surprised if there were 5 guys from out of area, and the average engine sold for ~275 bucks.

i bought an 8 hp witte on a home built trailer, with 4 spoked ag wheels that i just could not see letting go for 275 dollars so i bid 300 and got it.

it has the twin groove generator flywheel on it, and the history of the thing was it was once a genset, and the guy sold the genhead and switch gear for scrap and broke off the rear part of the base casting on his way to breaking up the rest when the deceased fellow saved it from a certain death and gave the idiot 30 bucks to take it home with him.

it starts and runs beautifully,  something i do just to stand back and watch the old girl run.

i needed it like another hole in the head, but wow, i couldn't let it go.

i also bought a petter 7hp for 60 bucks which i think was on a light bar in its early life.  it is electric start and runs perfectly too.

the problem with this stuff is the old guys that appreciate these engines are ... well "old" and when they are gone the younger guys don't have any real need or attraction to some old oily/smelly/nasty/earth destroying/iceburg melting peace of cast iron.  most of the younger guys would think they would be doing the planet a service to buy one at auction just to take it to a scrapper and feel good about saving the ozone or whatever they tell themselves this week.

right now anvils are hot, along with all sorts of blacksmithing stuff, mainly because of the blacksmith/knife building shows on tv, and younger guys all thinking they will make a living doing such stuff... hopefully they will protect what is left of that stuff, but when the day comes they figure out they are going broke and the kids are hungry they may just scrap everything and get a job writing software or developing some worthless app for the latest smart phone.

i am not overly optimistic for old iron being around for another generation.

maybe it is a good thing we don't get to live for more than the average 76 years or so,  i have a feeling at some point one gets very depressed watching what he worked so hard for going on the scrap heap as no one cares about it anymore.

sorry for the digression

(first one in quite a while)

bob g

Bob,
If it helps engines have fared far better than old tractors, at least in these parts. Guys who resurrected the more common 30s,40s and 50s farm tractors are watching them sell for the price of the tires, or less. Consignment auction this past week I had a heck of a time keeping my hands in my pockets as I watched tractor after tractor not break $1000, a VERY nicely restored F-20 farmall brought $850, An Allis B with belly mower ready to cut the lawn $400, H Farmall running and ready to use, $500 and on and on,,,,  Had a few engines there and they all brought respectable money.  There a a LOT of collectors selling out now, big time collectors and the market is absolutely flooded with both engines and tractors. If not well advertised and timed things are going to sell cheap.

Quote from: mobile_bob on August 07, 2017, 06:34:35 PM

the problem with this stuff is the old guys that appreciate these engines are ... well "old" and when they are gone the younger guys don't have any real need or attraction to some old oily/smelly/nasty/earth destroying/iceburg melting peace of cast iron.  most of the younger guys would think they would be doing the planet a service to buy one at auction just to take it to a scrapper and feel good about saving the ozone or whatever they tell themselves this week.

right now anvils are hot, along with all sorts of blacksmithing stuff, mainly because of the blacksmith/knife building shows on tv, and younger guys all thinking they will make a living doing such stuff... hopefully they will protect what is left of that stuff, but when the day comes they figure out they are going broke and the kids are hungry they may just scrap everything and get a job writing software or developing some worthless app for the latest smart phone.

You are a man after my own heart Bob.
Your sentiments are exactly the same as mine.  I worry for the way the world is going now. There seems to be such an internet/ faceboob mentality that is like a parallel universe where the way people think is just ridiculous and so far detached from the real world it makes me want to puke. 

I am SO Effing sick of all this " Save the planet, Oh no, co2 is the devil, everything has to be green" BULLSHIT I'm going to have a conniption before much longer.  The mrs and I went looking for a Fridge the other day.
Geezuz! $2500 for the one she wants and I look at it and just know the 30-35 yo one we have now that will be relegated to a spare will still be going when this flimsy plastic, corner cutting, energy rated piece of lightweight garbage is long gone.  The sales guy started talking about Co2 emissions.  I held my hand up and quietly said, "If you want to have a hope in hell about selling me something, never mention that bullshit again. I'm here for a fridge, not to have that crap rammed down my throat some more."  Probably thought I was some redneck Bogan, which I am, but I am fed up with that scam and insult to my intelligence.

Just seems to me the priorities are so wrong these days.  My daughter NEVER has the phone out of her hand. I have done all I can to give her a more " Meaningful" aspect of life but I cannot win against the force of what every other kid, ( person from 5 to 55 it seems) is doing.  We just bought a new luxury home in an upmarket acreage estate and the only thing shes concerned about is the " reception".  Should have moved 10 Km further out to make sure there was none! I think these phones are turning several generations into idiots and morons.

We haven't got the blacksmithing shows/ craze here yet, not that I have seen or heard of anyway and I doubt it will take off here much. I think we are too city based for anyone to have the space or be able to make the noise and have a fire, coal, gas or otherwise to do it.  be a wonder if it's not banned because of the greenhouse emissions and burning fossil fuels and other crap. I'm all for this though. It's anti PC, anti Iphone, do something with your hands and become a real man.  Hopefully it puts the lead in a few young blokes pencils again.
Of course that said, the biggest bunch of whingeing, limp wristed, cry baby sooks and pussys on any forum I ever came across was on a blacksmithing forum. Pack  of hypocrites too. One minute carrying on and moaning about all sorts of over the top and far fetched safety crap and then in the next thread telling me that is was perfectly safe to let a 5 Yo use a forge! Ya, right! No conflict there!

I think the dumbing down and taking away of any DIY and outside interested is pretty much pre disposed.  I was looking the other day at a new housing develop,emt where I am going. I am about 60Km from the city centre. There are endless paddocks of cows and horses around within 5 min if that. They are opening up developments out there fast as they can. Unlike the acre i went out there for, this latest release has blocks 312 m2.
I don't know how to convert that but the old 1/4 acre which was standard was 1200m2. My modern acre block is 4000m2.
thing that gets me and I always say is " What do you put in a 4 or 5 bedroom house?  Kids!"  Where are they going to play outside? in 15-20 years, where the fk they all going to park?  No public transport out there to speak of and at best a train line will be going in about 6 Km away in maybe 10 years, probably 20. Still going to have to get out of these Ghettos to get to the train.

There is zero space in these little enclaves and to me it's madness to have so much space around but pack everyone is so tight. there outght to be laws that prevent this and make for minimum block sizes so these places don't become slums.  How anyone is going to do blacksmithing there or do have any interest beyond watching movies and playing video games is beyond me. And the real kicker is they stick huge houses on these tiny blocks so outdoor space is minimal. I looked at one of these estates the other day. All Duplex's and I swear the neighbors could lean out the window and pass the cup of sugar to the next door neighbour through the window.

Young guys in general now wouldn't know how to change their own oil and these places pretty much determine they will never be able to do anything hands on from the start.   There are still the ones right into cars but they are more into 4 Cyl Turbos than a V8 and tuning to them is plugging in the laptop rather than using a timing light and changing the jets in the carb. I do go to a local engine club and I see 2 young guys there, brothers whom are into some old stuff at least. The eldest Drives an armored personnel carrier and has a modified V8 Tractor. Other than that, I often feel like a kid there being in my early 50's and most others looking like they have a good 20 years on me. I was always interested in this stuff, just took me a long time to find it.  I don't think there will be many after me though.

Quotesorry for the digression

(first one in quite a while)

Please digress more. I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

[/quote]

Quote from: playdiesel on August 08, 2017, 06:48:06 AM
Bob,
If it helps engines have fared far better than old tractors, at least in these parts. Guys who resurrected the more common 30s,40s and 50s farm tractors are watching them sell for the price of the tires, or less. Consignment auction this past week I had a heck of a time keeping my hands in my pockets as I watched tractor after tractor not break $1000,

I would suggest this could have a LOT to do with what I was talking about.

No idea with the US but near where I am, all the old 5 and 10 acre lots that were market gardens and Chook farms are being sold for many millions where 10 year ago, you would have bought 10 acres for 1 Million or less.  The million per acre is getting a lot closer to $2m per acre now.  and I am talking land only, not land with a mansion on it.
They are developing them and chopping them up into tiny pieces. I say to people the surveyors now just reach in their pockets, pull out a large handkerchief, mark out the corners and there's your block. I spent over 2 years looking for a place with more than a 2 car garage and I can tell you, they are RARE.  What was once the country and outskirts is fast becoming just a slightly more distant suburb. The suburbs are being chopped up as well. the place I am moving out of now will have townhouses or an apartment block on it. Packing more people into tighter spaces and then wondering why there are social problems.

The local schools all built the best part of if not over 100 years ago now have the once spacious playgrounds filled with demountable buildings which is a catch 22 in less space for more kids.

When I grew up, we lived in surburbia on the old 1/4 acre block.  You could park probably 15 cars 3 wide and 5 deep in the driveway. Dad always had a boat, a couple of cars and a pile of tools and junk in there as well.
There was a box trailer outside for taking stuff to the tip and taking out trail bikes about 15 min to the bike club track. Now a lot of councils won't allow you to have a boat or trailer on the street even though it's legally allowed. they make their own bylaws and somehow get away with enforcing them. Some places won't even allow you to have a boat or trailer on your own front lawn.

I'm sure a lot of people that had things like tractors are now finding there is no space to keep them.  A mate of mine has a restored Muscle car. He lives in a unit with a " 2 car" garage but those 2 cars would have to be the size of a Mini or a smart car to get them in.  He keeps the weekend car at his mothers place in the shed there but wonders what he'll do with it when his mother passes and he and his sister sell the place.  neither wish to live there so maybe the car will have to go too.

I really don't like the direction modern life is going. It's all about profit in squeezing people into little spaces and making them ever more useless.

There is simply no place to put anything these days.

My Uncle has a vintage tractor. No idea what it is but I know it's 1910.  when I settle I might talk to him about it and his '72 dodge truck.  I'd like to put a cummins 6BT in that.  Maybe a 6v53 But the Ciummins would be a lot more livable and have a heap more power.

The past is to be admired and respected for me but not worshiped.  I try not to mix in too much delusional malarkey but it happens even to the average of us.  Few generations have not believed the world was going to Hell in a hand basket.  Hence, my overview of nostalgia.  "A time and place that never was and never will be."

But we live in the here and now.  The lucky ones will spend some time in the future. 

glort, glort, glort!  As per Elon Musk kinda:  "We're going to run out of petroleum some day and then what are we going to do?  We'll turn to renewable energy sources.  Why continue to rape the earth for an end we know is coming."  I believe he shares his respect for the petroleum market program much the same as you do for people that are experimenting with solar and wind (you know; green-ness brother).

Me.  I think it's interesting that we could easily power the world with solar if we'd just make up our minds and go that way.

Casey

What's wrong with these people?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1112058_another-electric-highway-1250-miles-along-australias-coast (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1112058_another-electric-highway-1250-miles-along-australias-coast)

There simply is no end.

Casey

Well Fellas - I am sort of a convert. I took a Gen1 Nissan Leaf for a blast the other day and I was expecting it to be pretty damn awful. I was shocked to be honest - this thing went like a rocket! It was comfortable, it had a bit of class (not at all dog-like), had a 100 km range, was fun to drive and was truly a credible alternative to an oil-burner for commuting. The Gen2 is apparently good for 200 kms between charges. This petrol-head got a real buzz out of the thing. ;D

Welcome Derb

        :)

Green-spinning still eh, Mr Casey?
O.K. Washington State grids have FIVE, 110 car long trains a WEEK coming in from the Dakota's to make steam-electricity. Plus STILL one, sometimes two Nuclear power plants contributing from Hanford. We import seasonal hydro-electricity from Canada/Montana. Sure do import a lot of natural gas for peaking-fill-in generating plants year around. Out state transfer a lot of hydro-electricity down to sunny California.
Oregon got rid of their one Nuke plant. Use a much higher percentage than Washington or California of imported in natural gas for power grids electrical power generation. Oregon DOES transfer in from our in-state generated coal and nuke made grid electricity.
California grids DO still use a three plants Nuke contribution. "Clean" claiming California does have lots and lots of railcar loads of black fossil coal made electricity imported in from the four corners states region.

When my Clark County government removed four pay-for service-center parking spaces and put in four electric car charging stations I asked, "Where is the pay-in slot?" "We supply this free for Federal carbon reduction credits."
Gee. Free transportation energy paid for out of mine and everyone else property taxes!! A few commissioner heads rolled the next election cycle.
When two of my wife's favorite grocery stores put in electric car charging stations I asked management, "Where is the pay-for-use slot?" "We provided this free as a customer service." "O.K. Can I get a free gasoline discount credit too?" Of course not. Told the wifie I would not be shopping at the green-spin-walfare places anymore.
Last February winter breaking down on the Oregon coast one of out favorite stops is The Blue Heron in Tillamook. They now have added a standard electric car charging station and the special Tesla one too. I asked management, "Do we pay for use at the main cash register?" "Oh no. We provide this for free to our good customers." Ah. I'll take it that as a gasoline using customer that we are no longer good-and-welcomed then. They obviously to not need our money to be able to offer up free transportation energy to the special-entitled.

Anymore electric car green spinner out Rural in WA/OR can expect to be very sticky bumper stickered with a, "This car Powered By Nuclear!", "This car Powered By Black-Coal!" "Operator of this car robs electricity from your house!"

Washington State tree-farmer Steve Unruh - DOing something about carbons recycling/reusing

Yeah. Yeah. When I point out welfaring of alternatives to befit a few . . . I get lots of links sent on decades and decades of Big-Oil, Big-Coal, Big-Nuke corporate tax-credits and depletion-allowances welfare.
So what?
Whenever did two Wrongs ever make a Right, eh? Only to me-too whiners.

Is all good Steve - we are charging away largely on hydro, Geothermal, Wind-Farm and  a little bit of Solar here in NZ. Begger-all Coal but a reasonable amount of Natural-Gas. All our charging stations are "Plug and Pay". They seem to be reasonably user-friendly also. I tow a 3 tonne caravan around sucking up good volumes of hydrocarbons in my diesel ute so haven't gone over to the dark side yet. ;D Cheers.

Don't worry Steve.  The end of the all electric for everything promotion is starting to come to an end.  It should start making it's own way pretty soon.  It's much like the railroads receiving a 20 mile ownership path as they laid track across the old West to make way for progress.  I wonder how much road would have been laid without the 20 mile wide "incentive"? 

You are absolutely correct about we Washingtonians being slackers in renewable energy generation adoption.  The sooner we get our grid green the sooner electrical stuff will be green and that includes juice for air conditioners as well as the production of gasoline which I believe has 4 KW required for every gallon(?).  This greener grid will also shut down the dirtiest power in the world - coal.  China, the new energy leaders of the world, are running from coal as fast as we can build super ports to ship it to a dwindling market.  But not to worry as this rather pure and raw carbon will be very handy in future carbon manipulation manufacturing processes just as petroleum will always make fabulous paint.

Gosh, we spend a lot of money in the Middle East protecting the trade routes for petroleum.  We also tragically squander lives there too.  This is done so petroleum companies can charge you for the gasoline at the pump and do business via accelerated depreciation schemes and the like with the IRS.  Have you seen the documentaries on cancer rates in petroleum processing areas like Louisiana compared to less prosperous or progressive areas?

I've been thinking about buying one of the dirtier automobiles like a Mazda RX-8 and sequestering it's carbon foot print because I only drive a few thousand miles a year.  I wish there was a sporty machine that used diesel.  Then I could have my cake and eat it too.

Aloha,

Casey

Oh, in Hawaii, they charge for paper sacks in some of the grocery stores and you think free sucker bet charging stations are a pain in the market scheme.  Can't write it here.   QFC eat your heart out.

it was a whole lots easier to give away land that didn't belong to the government to the railroads than it is to take money out of the pockets of one hell of a lot of folks that live far below the needed level of income to buy a musk-mobile, or a leaf, or whatever the latest subsidized by the tax payer car on the market.

as i see it the real problem comes down to "how do you pay for it?"  everything from incentives for manufactures, promoters, and above average income earners.

if you can afford an electric car, why the hell should those that are on low fixed incomes, below poverty incomes, disability, etc , subsidize at the register the energy costs for some more well healed customer driving his cute little electric car, all the while having his/her nose in the air looking down from their obviously superior perch on the underlings that are paying for their power to recharge?

in my not so humble opinion, if you can afford an electric vehicle, you should also afford the charger cost at the local market or mall, or wherever you plug in!

what the hell is wrong with that?

i don't even want to go down this path.

bob g

Everything has a cost.  And the chumps (me to please) at the register more or less pay for everything.  That's just the reality of the market economy or any other economies as far as I know.  Whether you're paying a whopping 10% sales tax here in Washington or 4 plus 8% (state income tax) in Hawaii just about everything is paid for by the people that buy stuff.  OK, the Cayman Islands crowd avoid this bothersome step but the rest of us are payers.

To me the question is "Are we going to better off in 10 years or not".  Will there be less pollution in the air and water or the same or even more?  Have I mentioned the inherent transportation tax - subsidy of setting in traffic 12 minutes a day in older cars where the engine continues to run.  That's one hour a week and well over 40 hours a year or a week's time you donate to inefficient transportation.  And no improvement as a result of your loss/investment of a work weeks time.  "Raise my gas tax?" and "Subsidize mass transit?"?

Coal dust is almost a death ray.  From killing miners cardiovascular systems during harvest, blowing up mines, poisoning the transportation pathways and finally pooping contaminates into the atmosphere during the final conversion process it would still be a downward spiral all over the world had governments not encouraged change to less destructive methods of energy production.

Are our sacrifices going to make for a better tomorrow, the same old stuff or even worse?  Will the men and women that give their lives in the middle east make life any better for us?  Why are you so comfortable with these subsidies that we pay for petroleum and so concerned about the temporary subsidies we let the renewable energy industry earn?

Have you bothered to look into the death rates for the people that process the rare earth minerals and build the exotic batteries that these "green" little 'lectric fellers have to possess
to be viable?
And no, I have not either, but my spidey sense tells me a wow moment would be in order.
Ron.

Yeah - we all gotta take a slooow, deep breath of some of that lovely fine Lithium dust that powers most of todays toys. ;D

Lot's of important opinions being presented here.  This is one of the aspects of this blog and the other one I like.  Real adults do play nicer with others. 

We're talking really big money so our information sources are subject to vested influence.  That's the nice way of writing "fake news".  Whether that's "electric cars will save the world or coal miners will loose their retirement benefits" the underlying cash transfers are going to motivate the less ethical to distribute conjured facts or information. 

I want us all to ask the big questions every once in a while.  Is this process the best for us and our habitat?  Do I want this process in my back yard?

I have solar collectors on top of my energy building.  I don't want a coal in my county.

Have you ever changed lanes to get out from behind a diesel truck or bus because it stinks?  An electric bus?

PS.  My understanding is that the new batteries are less than 2% lithium.  Yea, I know.  We're gearing up to manufacture millions of them every week.  Machines will soon replace the children in lithium mines due to cost and efficiency.  Perhaps the children can find work harvesting gold.  ;~)

And then there is the serious public health issue of the substantial EMF exposure in an electric car... though some gas ignition cars are also horrible due to bad EMC design. 

I'm not sure if it's even possible to to have a low EMF electric car- even with development of a specialized motor, the variable frequency drive and shielding, and these are areas I'm fairly technically astute.  It would take one hell of an R&D project to pull it off.

Some non-corporate funded researchers already think that our rapidly worsening EMF environment in homes and workplaces is leading to the noted increasing incidence of degenerative neurological diseases, autoimmune diseases, autism, etc.  If the trends continue, it could do us in before climate change does.

On all other technical grounds - I think PV charged batteries for home and car electric power is a real winner, if only a vastly reduced EMI design strategy was incorporated.  The present crop of products- both PV charge controllers  and inverters are serious EMI generators; aka "dirty power".  Converting to hydrogen is inefficient as hell, or I'd say PV to hydrogen with smartplug type diesel engine operation for the ultimate in clean low EMF vehicle, with proper design.

Battery tech is STILL the technical bottleneck.  A single order of magnitude improvement would make the power grid a buggy whip for most homes.  I hope it happens soon, but we've been saying that for over a 100 years, and wet lead-acid is still the value king for home power. 

Ok now fellow Washington State'r Mr Casey.
I read back up on this topic to see when, where it diverted from an old Cummins engine to typical all-solar, all-of-the-time, will-save-the-planet spieling.
So was the Cummins engine just a bit'o old iron thigh, cleavage flashing to get a look going?

John Micheal Greer in 2013 published out a book:
"Green Wizardry: Conservation, Organic gardening, and other Hands-On Skills from the Appropriate Tech Toolkit"
ISBN 978-0-86571-747-3
page 163 quote on consequences of bio-fuel mandating:
"I wonder how many of the proponents of biofuel production have thought through the consequences of a future driving that might include being stopped at makeshift barricades and torn to pieces by an impoverished mob that is all too aware that every drop of ethanol or biodiesel in the tank represents FOOD taken from the mouths of their children?"
And he has a lot to say about west/east coast PV solar jet-setters.
Talk-talk. And a bit of show until the "need" to go event (100,000) fly-into Portland OR, solar elclipsing. Of course airline carbon footprinting is just so . . . plebium, common. The real jet-setters private jet last minute flew directly into Madaras Oregon. Elon Musk. Jeff Bezos. Kid Rock and about 397 others.

The actual Rural living, taxes-paying in Washington, Oregon and Nor-Cal are going to be chipping away at your trillion dollar west coast Elites pig-out not-highway. And where did all of the power cord-plugs go? Who would gobber-up, sticky-wad my power port while I was in peeing at a rest-stop? A sticky hard to remove bumper-tag-you is actually pretty benign. Misdemeanor only. An Aldo the Apache fascists tagging

Grow some commonsense man an just take your pick of now well proven hybrid cars that do not require a whole new infrastructure.

actual tons and tons of green-growing carbon-capturing annually, tree-farmer Steve Unruh

Aloha Steve,

The thread was started in good faith.  I think the Cummins is a real piece of industrial art.  It also helps me appreciate what a marvel of simple, hence great, engineering the Lister is.

I'm not sure where the thread went bad.  Bad thread!  Bad thread!

Actually, I was born on Pill Hill, Seattle.  My parents wasted little time arranging for a ration book.  Ahhh, the good old days.  I've been a card carrying Renton-ite all of my life.  I'm in the same room right now that I had in the 10th grade.  I was conceived next door.  My wife lives in Hawaii.  I spend almost 9 months there a year.  Wintering out in Kona isn't easy but a few of us have to keep the island prosperous.  Let go of the homestead here in Renton - No F*%^ing way!

Darn that Elon.  He didn't stop by and pick me up.  I caught a ride through Craigslist in a - believe it or not - Prius.  <4 hours down and >10 hours back.  Neat, huh?

Change is difficult.  Petroleum powered transportation wasn't exactly given the red carpet treatment back at the start of the 20th century.  We see few photos of the tons of horse manure picked up daily in New York City prior to this "advancement".  Chariots and bronze tools weren't universally accepted either.  Change is difficult.  Change can be really interesting too and it is the only certainty.

Casey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Michael_Greer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Michael_Greer)

https://nutritionfacts.org/2017/08/29/how-to-design-a-misleading-study-to-show-diet-doesnt-work/?utm_source=NutritionFacts.org&utm_campaign=c6b1e9c220-RSS_BLOG_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_40f9e497d1-c6b1e9c220-24598229&mc_cid=c6b1e9c220&mc_eid=0618e8a3dc (https://nutritionfacts.org/2017/08/29/how-to-design-a-misleading-study-to-show-diet-doesnt-work/?utm_source=NutritionFacts.org&utm_campaign=c6b1e9c220-RSS_BLOG_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_40f9e497d1-c6b1e9c220-24598229&mc_cid=c6b1e9c220&mc_eid=0618e8a3dc)

Yes John Micheal G. is kinda different appearing alright. Does not mean he is not very wide/deep in his historical and current reading, with a deep sense of organized societal/culturals history's patterns though.
His G.W. and later 2016 "Dark Ages America" books References and Bibliography sections shows this well. So let us be charitable and call him not libertarian, Democrat or Republican, eh. Independent. Very.
For an avowed Democrat read James Howard Kustner. Start with his "The Long Emergency".
For a Republican (former) read Chris Martenson PhD. Start with his "The Crash Course". I think he would now call himself a Libertarian. Or also very Independent.
John Micheal G. now moved from the PNW " . . living in Cumberland MD in an old mill town in the Appalachians"
James Howard K. now moved from NYC born, educated to living in a small New York mid-state town. With well proven historic water milling capability.
Chris Martensen and family now  from upper-yuppie east coast suburbia living in rural Massachusetts. "..for the soil capability and climate adaptability (natural rain), and good values neighbors . . ."
And I live on the edge of my wife's very small up in the casades foothills old-mill mountain town. Once with a 4kW small hydro-electric system with electric light before the City of Portland. Where I was born and grew up south county now has expaned out housing projects too. So foods gardening-wise I had to adapt from southern England to north Scotland so to speak. Needs-must.

And of course BobG. here moved back out to a small town in Kansas.

So, Mr Casey follow the lead of you wife and get out of the now urban-gut out to rural and real. They will not be operating jet airplanes on solar. Not ever. Just not in the energy math's capability. Passenger capable boats still do make a monthly or so back and forth with bulk freight to the Islands and back. Last I checked only out of S.F. area. Be easy to envision no-more-cheap petroleum isolation stay-put for HI Obamma-land.

tree-farmer Steve unruh

Cheers for the laughs Fellas!  :D  Now this is what makes this forum so much darn fun. Open, frank, lively, humorous discussion. Keep up the good work.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one having fun.

Too bad them edumacated fellas couldn't connect with the land they were born to.  Trust me; the shopping on the Big Island simply sucks.  The roads are poor.  And riding a bicycle is almost a death wish.  (I shipped mine back after three rides.)  OK, it has gorgeous weather during November, December, January, February, March and maybe a couple of other months too but August in Seattle just can't be beat. Is growing bananas, pineapple, coconuts, papaya, dragon fruit and a mango or two really that important?  Wouldn't you know two of those are mostly harvested in August.

Once we have an abundance of electricity we'll move on to hydrogen powered services.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXe1hBvlylw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXe1hBvlylw)  I don't believe Robert has a PhD but most of his YouTube videos are fun.

Enjoy the day.  

Best wishes,

Casey

Hey guys.
Actually these last two post of yours illistartes some important point about who, how, why the usibity and viabilty of "alternative" energies. Versus Dino.
J.M.Greer supports himself with selling his published writings. I just finished up reading his near-future (if-this-goes-on) novel "Twilight's Last Gleaming". A quote from page 52 by his 2026 then American President Weed:
". . . the scientists tried to come up with something to take the place of oil. You know the score: ethanol, wind, shale, solar, fusion, hydrates - - - one goddamn subsidy dumpster after another."
To build the big PNW hydroelectric dams that they did when I was  kid took lots and lots of petroleum dino fuel to make the concretes, steels; do the blasting excavating and such. I WATCH them build Trojan, and 3/4 build the Sasop Nuke power plants. Lot and lot of concrete, steels and diesel powered equipment used. I watch train loads of BIG wind tower, blades, gen housing being railed up the Columbia River gorge. Lot of Dino for the trains. Dino needed to ocean ship these in from European manufacturers. Dino in the form of Russian natural gas used by the European manufactures.
PV solar? I worked 7 years in the Washington State, Clark County electronic Fabs industry. High grade communications and power chips. OUR scrap and reject were carefully collected up and shipped for re-menting and regrowth into PV solar cells. These Fab plants: the Japanese one, the Korean one, The German one are multi billion dollar investments. Hugh amounts of Dino power made concrete and steels and glass and diesel powered equipment gone into their constructions.
Why Clark Countu WA? State tax grant subsidies. Huge. Location within one hour driving from Portland International Airport. Japanese/Korean/German execs, engineers, upper managers IN. High grade finished product out to the world. 'Nother reason. Local new immigrant and newly displaced NON-UNION manufacturing worker base willing to work hard long 12 hours shifts.
Many like J.M. Greer, Kustner, Martenson and other saying now without energy dense Dino-imputs no new big grid supping plants could be build. Even the existing built up by Dino infa-structures likr centralized Grids and macadam and concrete roads will not be able to be maintained.

Mr Casey hydrogen power is just another TOP-Down, don't worry, we will solve your problem spin. Just give us your votes to hog-out the dry holes. Our Elitist's positions and lifestyles depending on your sheepele bleating votes.
Tom Wolfe in his book, "The Right Stuff" attributes on of the first Apollo selected astronauts as insisting to one of the rocket scientists that really man, you only think these things will fly strictly by better application of your science. These lift off by Funding. You need us grandstanding to get the public interest, to get the votes, to get the funding.
Mr Casey popular literature's grandstanding for genuies-up replacement for petroleum fuels been going on hard since the early 1960's.

The BIG Y-in-the-road of usable, practical alternatives developing is distinctly hard turning from Top-Down for Others, to DOing it for me and mine.

OK Derb, as a proven DYI DOer . . . I know almost all on your equipment systems listing . . . what is the last one please?

Regards
tree-farmer Steve unruh

Sometimes the here and now has more to teach than the imagination of a 21st century pharaoh. 

I wonder how much those people that can't be in their homes are being compensated for by the petroleum company that is sweating out another container catching fire and pooping nasty stuff, in the air and the water, out on everyone.  I wonder how much the authorities will bill them for taking care of the fire fighting and nasty stuff cleanup activities.  Nope, no subsidies here.  Too bad they didn't have any warning about having generators in a flood zone and not putting them up on towers.  Too bad they didn't have back up pumps for the floating roof storage tanks.  Good luck they're in Texas where the stupid government doesn't come in and tell companies how to run their businesses.  How much crap is the Japanese nuclear plant still sifting into the ocean? 

Hi Steve. An English single cylinder 4 stroke engine commonly used on old mowers, rotary hoes, water-pumps etc. It looks about early '60's thereabouts. I was given it by a guy cleaning out his shed. It is languishing in my "to do" pile at present. Looks around 3 - 5 HP I think. Will likely end up attached to an alternator or another Fisher and Paykel PMG for standby power. Cheers.

Great ending Derb.

When the good times are over - they're over. 

Thanks to you all.

P.S.  I'm a bit reading challenged.  John Micheal Greer and his associates can be found on YouTube.

Interesting indeed Derb.
For many things, "cast iron does it better".
As a 16,17,18 y.o. lad back in 1969,70,71 I got a summer job at Ray P. Cosners Lawnmower & Small Engine shop.
I was paid $3.00 US for a lawnmower full tune-up/functions-restore IF I did not have to valve grind. $5.00 per unit that I did have to valve grind and/or piston rings replace.
The old then all cast iron B&S's, Kohlers were an easy dream to work on. Never any significant piston/bore/valve wear. Gummed up float type carburetors. Oxidized IG points.
The newer still valve in block/side valve aluminum engines not nearly as forgiving easy. The B&S's with pita die cast zink pumper suction carburetors. Yuk.
I was young. Young. and still quite a bit an engine dumb-dumb. The 2-stroke Lawnboys stumped me. I did not then know about crankshaft pressurization and shaft seals, intake reed valves.

The sweetest "old" cast iron small engine that I have is a JangDong R180.
Those old 1930's German engineers were smart.
Not much lost in the to-Japanese, then to-Chinesse translations of this extremely simple OHV design.

Mr Casey.
Net search up for readable link to "Tesla Comes to Kona".
About a young idealistic couple went off grid, solar. Disappointing that they could not grow exactly what they wanted. For subsistence, and selling. Disappointed to keep their batteries charged even with severe power use reductions they STILL had to gasoline generator run at times.
Sadly to me unable to see that they had more than half-filled many DIY glasses. Even letting forest-fears for their toddler child drive them.
Now looking, "to further educe their carbon footprint" by moving back to town and buying into the Islands co-operative Grid. And that co-operative being E.Musk (sp?) used as a Tesla battery demonstration site. Subsidized? Most likely.

Regards
Steve Unruh

Hi Steve,

I couldn't find the article but for cooperative power they'd have to live on Kauai.  We pay about 33 cents on the big island "Hawaii" so our solar project paid for itself in just a few years.  And yes we got tax credits and a grant.  I want to thank all of you tax payers out there for a lot of savings.  I'm hoping the people that we purchased our supplies from are thankful as well.  The two people that helped me liked the program.  A very capable snow bird volunteered for two days.  A great experience.  I don't know what the financing on Kauai is but the big island is drooling over their rates.  The corporation that supplies power to our island also owns petroleum transportation and processing.  They buy on island sustainable power for 15 cent wholesale and sell it the same moment for 33.  Not a bad mark-up.  Yup, you're correct, that's 35,600% annual return.  That's the new grid tie program as well.  OMG, I'm almost on another rant.  One last thing.  If I upgrade my true grid tie - what you put on the grid is what you get back - I have to change my whole system to the new 35,600% program.

We did have to pay taxes on the grant but I consider tax credits an enlightened tax program where the payer gets to direct his/her taxes towards a category that makes sense to them rather than the big pot of military industrial testosterone bingo.  Here's my tax program:  The payer gets to pick up to 5 areas for his/her taxes to be spent.  No body picks sustainable power, climate change or global warming and those programs quite simply die.  Live by the buck - die by the buck.

Cheers,

Yes you are coorect it was on Kauai.
My tricky brain has given me more nad more problems for years now. My once encyclopedic-memory got wettend when I fell asleep in the whirlpool tub-of-life I suspect.

Here is the article if I can gne tit to link:
https://longreads.com/2017/08/08/hard-lessons-in-living-off-the-grid/

Regards
tree-farmer Steve unruh

Here's the trillion dollar problem....

The infrastructure of the entire planet is built around liquid gold (oil).
Transport, food, electricity...everything moves around in a 100 year old super infrastructure that cannot be changed in a few decades.
And any changes to that structure require vast amounts of ENERGY from the existing sources which are in decline.
Along with that comes the governmental policy changes required to override the current mega corporation bureaucracy.
Renewables and alternatives play such a small part that they don't have any momentum yet despite all the news articles and tv documentaries.
The time to change may have already passed.

WORLD ENERGY CONTRIBUTION BY TYPE...
The tiny GREY sliver along the top of this data is the SOLAR contribution to the mix.
<click picture to enlarge>

Veggie

Nice article SteveU.  I thought it interesting that when talking about the cost advantages of utility solar they didn't spend much time on distribution. 

Interesting chart.  It's the constant increase coupled with the subtle change that caught my attention.  It's only two years out of date but I think I've heard that coal has stopped growing.  The United Kingdom is starting to have coal free days and China is stopping work on unfinished plants.  I learned to hate coal whilst pulling clinkers out of a furnace in Boise, Idaho one Winter.  Nasty stuff.  Change is not all bad. 

Now for contrast and comparison search up and view/read the different articles on the "Scottish island of Eigg". Claiming to be the first all alternative electrical powered island in the world.
Contrast the differences in the approaches.
On Eigg they had virtually no electrical power that the "Laird" did not divvy out supply.
Boot him out. Buy their own land ownership freedom. Make their own minimal needs power. Cooperatively.
The HI couple so all out on-your-own scared, and top-down grid seduced, allowed themselves to be green-spun to going back to grid-slaving. Personal power freedom was never in their efforts equation.
Watch the long PBS or BBC vidio version on the Eigg islander and see that most were not born there but chose to live there for the out-of-the-maddening-crowds lifestyle. Certainly Not for the weather and pizza choices.

Look on any alternative energy forums and those who factor in personal energy freedom distinctly as a primary: always DOer out perform those who talk, talk, talk,  forever-do-little's for any and all other reasons.
Why I say hurrah for you, Glort!! keep up the getting it on, man.
tree-farmer SteveU

Quote from: SteveU. on December 04, 2017, 11:38:33 AM
Look on any alternative energy forums and those who factor in personal energy freedom distinctly as a primary: always DOer out perform those who talk, talk, talk,  forever-do-little's for any and all other reasons.
Why I say hurrah for you, Glort!! keep up the getting it on, man.
tree-farmer SteveU

Thanks Steve.
I would like to think I am like you in being someone who calls it as it is.
I'm not biased ( other than with the sentiment and mentality) as anti green, anti renewable or anti fossil fuel.  I just like the best solution for the given problem or need and don't think there are any one size fits all answer.
To me we should use the best of what we have, not be in a gut busting hurry to change to something that is less reliable, more costly and offers no immediate benefits to what we are already doing.


I have been testing a solar setup on the back lawn for months and putting a huge dent in my power bills with it.  Got the first array up on the shed roof yesterday evening in the fading light.  Wired it up this morning and will work on getting the next lot up there this evening.  Of course it's a cloudy, overcast day today so I can't lean on it but it's working as it should so far. I have put up a 5kw inverter over the 2x2 Kw's I was using so hope for a bit better efficiency there.

I think solar should be on every roof but I don't believe it ( or wind) is a replacement for fossil grid power. As a REDUCER of grid power, be that coal/ nuke/ gas, whatever non green generation, it works real well but it's NOT something a grid should be based on. NO renewable is atm because they simply do not have the stability of the traditional generators.  Here the  gubbermints have been hell bent on literally blowing up coal fired stations till they got a huge wake up call with a state going out completely, TWICE, and then dire warning from their own experts there was a massive shortage of power that could collapse power to the majority of the population.  The great solution was to replace the coal generation with diesel. It's effing insane the stupidity of these greenwashed whingers that want everything green today rather than be happy to offset where it can be done and save where possible till a proper solution is developed.

We have the big BS Tesla battery gone online a few days ago.
"Built in 100 Days"  Yeah, my arse! They were working on it 80 days before they started the clock and then had the green washed audacity to claim it was completed ahead of schedule.
Yeah, I'm going to set a new lap record at nurburgring on a motor scooter, you just can't start the clock till I'm coming onto the home straight but it will be a great victory for motor scooters power and performance!  ::)
Much is made of the fact the battery will power 30,000 homes in that state.  For an hour.  What about the other 600,000 homes in that state? what are they going to do? And the businesses, and industry. And public facilities like hospitals and schools and...... But don't listen to me, I'm just an old dinosaur that thinks in this modern day and age we should be able to have the lights on when we want them on and I don't tow the greenwashed line.  Could have built a new Tech clean coal power station for that which would power a lot more homes 24/7 in virtual perpetuity for similar money and got a lot better value from it.

I want to supplement my Solar power ( still grid connected) with my diesel engines.  They will burn Veg oil not because I want to save the planet, but because it's free fuel I can get and use with a bit of effort put in to condition it. If I come across waste engine oil, I'll burn that too.  The emissions argument on that is now gone with the gubbermint having to burn Diesel for power generation after taking out all the coal fired plants. It's always going to be a lot better for me to produce my own power locally than to have it produced 300-3000 Km away and transmitted. I have got a whole bunch of engines, the gen heads have not been easy to come across though so I plan to import a couple ( at least) from China next year and set them up. I'd like to be self sufficient  if need be in a blackout and I don't want batteries at this point with the solar ( although I might get a couple of cheap deep cycles and run with my 2KW inverters for daytime/ solar fed use in the meantime) so a veg fed generator is the best and cheapest option for me.

But that's where it all goes pear shaped.
Big biz and gubbermints are only green as far as there is a buck ( and a vote) in it. If everyone put panels on their home and factory roof, they would be greatly reducing the amount of power coming from the far off power plants and they would loose revenue. That's why in reality it's lip service to practical solutions and a lot of razzmatazz to the profitable ones.... no matter how green and reliable they are NOT.

Green is all trendy and well but these people need to stop treating it like a cult religion everyone has to follow and start looking at it from a practical and real  POV.
If you can build a solar farm and it will run your bit of the grid 5 days a week and you can have the coal plant idling from 9am to 4PM before you ramp it up and save XXXX tons of coal a week, great! Be happy with that and the benefits of both worlds it offers. Just don't become obsessed that it HAS to be all green and bust a gut to get rid of everything that's not and find that the ideals can't meet the real and practical demand...... as they keep doing here.
Use green tech where you can, mix it with the old reliable and be happy with the savings in your chosen poison you make and the reduction thereof.

I'm going to make my own Power how and when I can.  When I can't, I'll fall back to the grid and wherever the power comes from. The aim is to keep the juice flowing as reliable and cheaply as possible, not to become obsessed with some religion and belief that ultimately is completely pointless.
For those that will arc up at that statement, Show me one green initiative and tell me as a percent of the worlds total, what improvement that made in emissions/ air quality/ water cleanliness or anything else in the world.  
Don't give me the  " xxx tons of co2" which is as meaningless as 30,000 homes out of 630,000, I want to know how many percent of the air etc quality of the world was improved.  Saying " This saves 10,000 ton of co2 sounds impressive till you realise the boffins say there is 40 Billion ton a year released into the atmosphere.  The amount that is human made and that which is naturally occurring is up for debate as well.

Our own resident Chief green biased scientist  has admitted, If Australia had  ZERO carbon emissions, it would make not one bit of difference to the world air quality.
So someone tell me why we are blowing up coal power stations and spending $50 mill on a BS battery to power 1/12th of one minor states homes ( forget business and everything else) for an hour??
And that's just a fraction of the obsession.

I am not interested in saving a watt of power, a drop of water or a gram of co2.  I'll run My AC when I want, keep my incandescent lights where I want and generate the power with my panels and engines to offset 90+ plus of the cost of it.
I'll drive my 3 Ton 4wd everywhere I want on Veg oil and I'll water the garden to grow my veggies and keep the grass green from my rain water tanks.
I'll bet I outdo the majority of the save the world types with what I do every day not because I believe in their cult, but because it saves me money and lets me have some self sufficiency and independence and I don't need to go without or economise on a thing.

I have asked the " What percentage will the worlds air quality improve by doin XZY?" question at least 50 times over the years on forums and not one person has been able to give me a figure yet which proves to me busting a gut to be green while compromising our power supply and costing families quality and enjoyment of their lives is all a big con by gubbermints and big biz making billions from it and keeping our attention diverted from the real problems in the world.

/ rant, still got 18 more panels to haul up on the shed roof and connect!  Cost of running the AC in the heat to keep the house comfy and all those Christmas lights has to be offset somehow!  :0)

QuoteAnd that's just a fraction of the obsession.

Nicely written and well said glort.
And your clear graphic and explanation is also very true Mr Veggie. Energy source changes takes place over time  as the previous primary slowly petters-out and the equipment's purposed designed for that previous primary source are worn out and replaced. Far, far too expensive and impractical to force rapid changes.

Unfortunately the typical Green is not a logical rational practical person. Emotional. Strident. Loud. "Activist" means antagonistic. Disruptive.
Since they do not read/research past what validates their adopted notions they cannot be bothered to change viewpoints.
Just like all of the new-convert-believer fanatics for the last 2-3000 years.
So-o-o-o convinced that their new-found adopted Beliefs are so, so, damn good, important, that ALL should be forced to adopt then too.

As not rational people you will save a lot of breath and personal time-energy to just adopt a short local relevant to your culture retort:
xxxx-you Green!!
xxx-you Green!!
Then go about your way . . . doing it your way anyhow.

Hey, your typical modern day Green makes themselves very sheeple wired-in, corded-in, gridded-in, socially-connected, power dependent.
Find their plug. And unplug it. (hint: in democracies that is the vote)
The electric forced air stops pumping up the yard ornament dummy and it collapses onto itself. Hollow. Windbag. No substance. No capabilities. Nothing to fear there.
tree-farmer Steve unruh

Just a quick word from a greenie.

I know I'm a greenie.  I wonder who these people are that seem to be lumped into my posse?  I wonder why my few credentials push me in with those other "Peoples" groups that sound so tweetie to me?  Or is it Twinky?

We have no kids so I'm not saying the planet for my sperm donations.  I just like to leave the campsite better than when I arrived.  We enjoy the good life that non renewable energy sources have and are providing for us but we want a better, more planet compatible solution for the future.  Don't you?

Obesity is not the only reason that the US spends over 1/5 of its GNP on health (really should be called sickness) programs.  We all need to come to terms with the fake news that has been around since Nero was told the fires were celebrations of his fearless and wise leadershipness.  Shall we never have another visionary leader such as Nero again?

" I just like to leave the campsite better than when I arrived. "

boy that sure struck a chord with me!

i have been using that one now for the last couple years, trying as i might to break down the dysfunctional culture of the small community that i have been re-elected as mayor of.

i watch the news, like most folks, at least as much as i can stand of it...

and i am left with this conclusion... or rather question

(i know i digress and this has nothing to do with cummins or any engine, beit diesel or frog fart fueled)

its been quite a while since you all have been subjected to one of my tirades, so just suck it up buttercup! :)

so here goes...

what the hell has happened to this country?
to this state?  to this county? to this town? to a good portion of folks around us?

what the hell has happened to us?

when did we either as a group or as individuals become so damned self centered, self absorbed, ego-centric, center of the universe and the hell with everything and everyone else... that is if it doesn't directly benefit "me"?

we have congressmen that will not vote on a bill unless they get their slice of pork for some special interest group back in their district... even if it is to the detriment of 99% of the rest of the country.

we have business owners that will not stand up to anyone over anything (even though they know it would be right to do so) owing to fear of losing an account... even when they know that this makes them complicit with the problem child.

we have in our town, as i expect just about everywhere else, differing groups that refuse to help or support each others volunteer efforts... even when faced with such low numbers that it is near impossible to get individual projects done, which is a detriment to the rest of the town.

its like we are one of the largest, most dysfunctional families on the planet!  much like a family of boys that seem to enjoy beating the brains out of each other, belittling, driving down to the lowest common denominator... all the while complaining of the plight we find ourselves in... heaven knows it can't possibly be our fault, now can it?

so where is bob going with all this?

hell i don't know!  at least not for sure, but i am starting to come full circle yet again in my life...

i came close to dropping out offgrid 7 years ago, but decided it would be easier and cheaper just to buy this place in town...
heck, it is already built, has all the utilities connected and ready to go... cheap enough to buy... seemed like the right thing to do...   ya right!

i find myself awake to the wee hours, going over my offgrid plan, one which i had developed, collected all the necessary bits and pieces to make a reality, including the acreage (all of which i still have btw, you guys know how it is, we collect, stuff follows us home, Thoreau had it right)...

not sure the wife is up for this, but i think it is way past time to go back, dust off the plan, rescale to fit my current needs, and those going forward and get 'er done.

besides i think i would then have more time to spend with like minded folks (present company exclusive) and if the rest of the world is intent on continuing to  spiral down into a collective pit of squabbling despair?  who am i to stop them?

at least i can honestly say i tried! much more than the average bear around these parts.

maybe they enjoy it?  i am beginning to think that is a real possibility.

just got to figure out if i can muster enough physical capability to erect a sub 500ft structure.

ok, i feel better now...

thanks guys  :)

bob g

Good to hear from you Bob, congrats on the re-election. I fully understand the frustrations of politics as I've been leading a movement to split California. Also glad to hear you're well enough to be thinking of going off grid. Being off-grid for 10 years now has been great and going back on has not been considered.

Quote from: LowGear on December 13, 2017, 11:32:49 AM
I know I'm a greenie.  I wonder who these people are that seem to be lumped into my posse?  I wonder why my few credentials push me in with those other "Peoples" groups that sound so tweetie to me?  Or is it Twinky?

Well your constant smart arse comments at those with differing views without putting forward any points or ideas to support your position sure don't help!

In all honesty, the greens/ leftists have a VERY predictable attitude to things they disagree with it and you follow that line pretty well.

You don't like my rants, Fine. pick them to pieces with some valid perspective to make me think and reevaluate my position and open my eyes.  I'm all for that. I like to learn and be enlightened and see things from a different perspective. Cheap shots don't go real far to a persons credibility with me. Make some VALID and creditable points to challenge what I say and I'll respect a person a whole lot more even if they are on the opposite end of the scale to what I think.

QuoteWe enjoy the good life that non renewable energy sources have and are providing for us but we want a better, more planet compatible solution for the future.  Don't you?

Sure I do but what I don't want is the endless  green BS and shoving it down my throat every way I turn like the green cult is perfect which we know it's not.  The whole green thing is so over sold it's not funny and simple rudimentary research shows the gaping holes in the story.
I want real facts and solution's not 90% fairy tales.   

Quote from: mobile_bob on December 13, 2017, 06:28:11 PM

what the hell has happened to this country?
to this state?  to this county? to this town? to a good portion of folks around us?

Sorry Bob, I think your vision is a bit ear sighted.

It should be" What's happened to the world?"   :-\

Other than that, Well said mate.

Oops.  I phased out again.

Nice to hear from you again.

Quote from: mobile_bob on December 13, 2017, 06:28:11 PMjust got to figure out if i can muster enough physical capability to erect a sub 500ft structure.

Erecting a small house is easy.  Living in one is quite a style change.

i did a stint of a couple years in a 215 sq/ft studio apt, or flat, or tiny space back in '01-'03 or so...

for the first 30 days it took a bit to get used to, but after that i got right down homey... my wife even lived with me there
for about a year before we got married.

since moving back to kansas and buying this place, which is basically a 2 story with 750 sq/ft on each floor.... and we live on the upper floor as i have not gotten around to remodeling the lower floor as of yet.

so i think 500 sq/ft is doable for the two of us,  although i am sure i need about 10x that for storage of all the iron one collects thinking he has to have it. .

the next 6 months is going to tell me what i need to do, as i have two new councilmembers that i hand picked, promoted and got elected along with myself... so i have 3 or 4 council members that are up for the agenda i am putting forward.

and it is one hell of an agenda if i say so myself... if we accomplish half of it in the next 2 years it will be the most change this town has seen in the last century.... lots of folks are going to be pissed, but...

more will be quite pleased to see the ship turn about.

so if the ship starts to turn the right direction in the upcoming months maybe my attitude will improve, otherwise?  we shall see...

gotta have a plan B, don't we?

bob g

I have seen YT vids about these tiny houses on wheels.
They are a freaking caravan or trailer as called in the US. I don't see what the fuss is about?  Just because people make them look house like really doesn't change the fact they are still caravans and you could buy or build something similar as people  have done back to shortly after the advent of the enclosed motor car.

I just worked out what square feet is. I thought this house was not that big. I know the measurements off the plans and we work in " Squares" so it is 2700 Sq Ft.  What is average for a normal house in the US?
My TV education of US homes leads me to believe they are either smallish apartments or rather large places in the suburbs.

Also, what is the idea behind these tiny houses? Is it to save on cleaning and maintence or because they are cheaper to buy/ build or....?
Got to admit, I like space.  Our bedroom is 30 ft x 30. It is big but its light and airy and there is room around the bed without having to squish past the dressing table and chests of drawers. We wanted a King size bed in the last place but had to settle for a queen. Didn't have to compromise this time!
  The main lounge room is  not quite 40x40. There is an inset on one corner about 6 ftx 4 but it is a nice big room where one can put plenty of furniture and not feel cramped.  My office is tiny, only 12x 12 ft but i'm the only one in here 95% of the time so it's OK but I would have liked more room for bookcases, shelving and storage.

Garage is a bit less than I'd like, 870 sq ft but I'm going to add about another 500 so that will be better.
More space to put panels and to harvest the rain water.
And put the 12/2 6KW gen set in which is looking like it might happen as talks with the seller are doing well. 

In the USA, only mobile units can be called "tiny houses"  Most building Codes require 500sf as minimum dwelling size.

this link from Forbes, lists average house size 1,000 sq ft to 1,800 sq ft
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trulia/2013/10/10/where-americas-middle-class-can-afford-to-buy-a-home/

Sorry to be dense but is this for free standing houses or ????
I don't understand the term " affordable" as it is applied here.  They list citys in that article which I take it they mean suburbs of the CBD.  It's not possible to buy anything for $300K here in the suburbs including a small unit apartment.  What are they talking about there?

The house sizes seem tiny as well quoting 1000 Sq ft. That is a unit here.

" Affordable" homes here would be in the $700-800K mark.  The new estates not far from here where the land is really tiny being only 350 Sq m go for early $700's.
I was lucky with this place when I bought it back in May to grab it for only $1.4.  it's an acreage.  Many places in the area were going 1.6 to 2.0.  Prices have gone up of course since and with what I have already done here in just tidying gardens and removing overgrown bushes, painting etc the place would be worth a lot more now.

Not sure you would get anything in any city here for under $300K. Country towns 3-4 hours away, you would get something in some states that was decent, others would be real fixer upper's.

With prices that low in the US, Why would anyone want a small house??

QuoteWith prices that low in the US, Why would anyone want a small house??

I live in a 350 square foot apartment 3 or 4 months a year.  If I sum up my used space back here at the main house I really only use about twice that space on a normal day.  I've come to like the smaller space for a couple of different reasons.  Who's your cleaning company?  I just buy less crap when I have less place to keep it. 

I also like the subtle questions.  How do I get along with one small refrigerator?  One computer?  Ok, two monitors but one computer. 

The 6'-1" ceilings are not that bad but some of my taller friends get nervous.  The ceiling is easier to paint.

Money seems to last longer as well.  It's a choice for me but i grew up in a house that each person had about 400 square feet of living space.  OK, we shared many spots like the bathroom, kitchen and such.  It's might grind a bit if this was financially forced and keep in mind most of the world would regard a 600 square foot living space as amazing.

So there are some of the observations of a small place inhapitor.  Small is beautiful.

Bob you are a much, much better man than I.  I just prepare for me and mine and sit back and watch the rest of the word slowly die. We all know that is going to be the end result, but some keep on trying to right a sinking ship. Sorry I guess my cynicism is running rampant tonight, but I don't see a viable way out. How many times has the old saw "These Kids Today"
been uttered?

Now,everybody pile on and tell me just how full of ship I am. I asked for it. And I guess I need it too.
Ron inTN

Quote from: LowGear on December 17, 2017, 12:40:53 PM
The 6'-1" ceilings are not that bad but some of my taller friends get nervous.  The ceiling is easier to paint.

The ceilings in this place are 6'1???
No!
That's not small, that claustrophobic!  You'll be happy to know, I won't be coming to visit. I'm taller than your ceilings are high so wouldn't fit in the place.
I spose it's a good job they are easy to paint, it would be a job you'd have to do regularly from the marks people smacking their heads all the time would leave.  I have never heard of such a low ceiling unless that's a typo.

Small fridge wouldn't worry me If I were on my own. It's the mrs that has a thing that an empty fridge is something unacceptable.  the old dedicated freezer caught fire a couple of months back so we bought a new fridge/ freezer with the water and ice dispenser.  Great idea and we are all drinking more water now which is a good thing. The freezer is a 1/4 the size we had before but so far, she's coping well with it.
I turned the old freezer into my plant raising " hatchery".

Despite this place being roomy and comfortable, It does not cost a lot to be here. The solar I have put on the roof allows me to run the AC and everything else without going into a coronary when the bill arrives and we have water tanks and also the Biological treated sewerage for watering the garden.  My energy and water use would probably be les than my friend in his apartment that cannot generate his own power and has a small yard he maintains.
Just because it's not tiny does not mean it has to be expensive to run.

Cleaning, I'll certainly give you that one! The floors seem huge. I washed the floor in the kitchen/ dining room yesterday. There are a lot of tiles and just as much carpet.  Bathrooms take some doing as well. Our ensuite is bigger than our last bathroom but because just the wife and I use it, never as much cleaning as the smaller bathroom we shared with the kids.  My daughter claimed the main bathroom as hers which was granted providing she keeps it clean.  Some butt kicking has been applied there as it's the one guests see and not been kept to the required level.  I think that problem will be rectified in future.

I'm looking at putting in another bathroom in the new year. we want to put in a new kitchen and re do the en suite so this will be the tradesman's bathroom, literally.

I have lived in very Modest homes all my life but now we have the means to live more comfortably, I think we have earned and worked for the comforts we now have.  They will probably be relatively short lived and I don't think this will be our final abode.  The fact there is a large retirement village a couple of KM away was not lost on us so if we do find the place or living unassisted gets too much, at least we won't have to change postcodes. :0)

In the mean time, I want to get my business up and running again next year and providing my health allows me to carry on with things, I have promised the wife a cleaning lady.

i suppose, cost and sq/ft are subjective terms

obviously i can by an acre in central kansas for peanuts, compared to downtown NYC or Tokyo

when it comes to size i guess it all comes down to what one is willing to tolerate.

i did my stint in 215sq/ft while going through a protracted divorce, while paying combines support to a level that left
me with precious little to live on... so it was out of necessity that i got to run the grand experiment.

as it turned out i am grateful for the experience!

we all know when it comes down to being self sufficient, offgrid and all that, with size comes expense
with big houses, come the need for big heat and cooling, big appliances, lots more lighting and all the other stuff
that is needed just to fill the space so one doesn't end up feeling as though he is living in an aircraft hanger.

conversely the tiny experiment, proved to me that i can live comfortably and vastly more economically in a small space

that is one of the reason's i am tickled to follow our members journey with his 165 changfa...

i now know i could live comfortably within a sub 500sq/ft home, and power it with a 165 easily, a couple solar panels, a few golf cart batteries, and a small inverter.... stay warm or cool, and never have to work for someone other than myself (at least full time) for the rest of my life.

had i started out as a young man (early 20's) and forgone the female company (also known as a wife) for at least 10 years, and opted for a tiny space... i think i likely could have comfortably retired by 35 without a care in the world... granted if i then got married and started with the kid thing all bets are then off... but my bet is i would still be miles ahead.

i think that is what is driving so many younger folks these days with the whole tiny house movement.. they can control their costs to the point that they free up a lot of time that otherwise would be spent making money to pay for the mcmansion, the associated taxes, utilities and all the necessary furniture to fill it with... and there you go... on the treadmill till you fall off.

if you feel you have to have a big house, then go ahead and buy one, and rent it out and let some other guy pay it off for you?

there is just something seductive about having the freedom to engage only to the extent one wants to, at least to me.

that 215sq/ft studio (if you wanna call it that) had 4 light bulbs, my desktop doubled as my TV (with a tv card), i had a sofa which as really a love seat... hell how many folks do i want to entertain anyways? the wall mounted nat/gas heater virtually never came on even in the winter months, the pilot light and heat from cooking, taking a shower, the light bulbs and my puter provided the vast majority of the heating requirement. bare in mind this was a flat in the upstairs of an old rooming house, so it is doubtful that the R value was much more than a 2x4 piece of fir stud and some plaster.

the point being is this.... an 800watt inverter (maybe 50 bucks) a couple of golf cart batteries, a couple panels and a charge controller, a 165 with an alternator, harvest the heat to heat my domestic hot water, help with charging, and providing power during the evening... maybe convert a small chest freezer to fridge duty and with a little thought and ingenuity and bob's you uncle!

now i realize this isn't the cup of tea for 90% of women folk, but really?  i really think one might be surprised.

at the very least, i would think there ought to be an incredible interest among folks around here, if not for primary living, but at least for a getaway cabin, a wtshtf escape, or if the old lady through's you out of the big house :)

of what happens should you or the wife or someone close to you gets a dreaded illness and bankrupts your butt.... wouldn't a predesigned tiny home be welcome as a fall back solution?

i realize there are those that live their whole lives without health issues, never losing a job, always making a good living, and never having a hiccup... i guess i don't fit in that group so my perspective might be a bit different because of that?

and then there is that tv channel and the like "natural geographic" where they show us over families from around the globe, living in straw huts, mud huts, tar paper shacks or whatever, with 27 kids, a happy stay at home momma and a dad that seems to have the time to actually know most if not all of his offspring.

i have read that over 75% of the worlds people don't have a word for the word "mortgage" in their native language! when it is explained to them that there are folks that borrow money to have a house built and then pay it off over 30 years?  really?  they think they are insane!

i wonder who is really the one that is insane?

bob g

ps... "there is nothing wrong with me, wrong with me, wrong with me..mememememe.....

:)

Your comments make a lot of sense Bob.
I just can't relate to them myself.  Certainly we have lived week to week and done it for a long while too and couldn't afford a lot of things I would have liked to have spoiled the family with  but here we lived, I don't think the size of the house which was modest anyway, was a big factor.  One of the reason I got into the veg oil thing was the cost of taking the kids to school every day.  They went to an out of area school because we basicaly lived in a shithole suburb and a friend whom was a school teacher confirmed my fears and said your kids will be so held back if the go tot he school 5 doors up the road.  We enquired at the school before they were school age and were told that they had a yearly student turn over of 80%. A mind numbing figure due to the population of the area being renters rather than owners and moving on.

Their school wasn't that far away but in peak times was a 45 min drive each way.  At 9Pm I could do it in under 10 min easily. Did burn a lot of fuel sitting round and was not possible to drive anymore conservatively than what I did.  When I got "Helga" as she was christened  and not only had the ability to do the school run for nothing but go everywhere else for free as well, it sure was a godsend to us till things picked up a bit.

One thing I would LOVE to do is have a place somewhere to put a lot of my DIY ideas to work.  I had a lot of things in mid for this place but I have learned they are not practical.
It comes back to a side point I think you are also making.  This is a " Luxury" home in an upmarket area.  TBH, we didn't even realise  when we bought it but now when people ask where we live and we tell them, we get the " OH!" reaction like we told them we live in Beverly Hills or some other place of the rich and famous.... which we are certainly not.
The thing is, I have to be careful of what I do here so as not to 1. affect the property value, and 2, piss the neighbors off.

No one here is snot nosed at all, quite the opposite in fact. Tends to be a lot of people whom have been battlers and now like us, have become better off through hard work and maybe a bit of luck. It's more a consideration matter really. The place across the road is a shitfight.  The guy is a Bikie and seems to have much of the street scared of him.  Only ever seen the guy sitting on his verandah once and the only people that I see quietly coming and going are his Mrs and parents whom own the house but don't live there.  If he cleaned up the front and got rid of the old cars and bit of junk it would be fine but it is an eyesore.

I'd like to have the house heated with a veg oil burner and a heat exchanger and other ideas but locating them for one is a problem and then putting in pipes or other ways of transferring heat or cooling is another.  I really don't want to go punching holes in the brick walls and don't want to heath Robinson things that could fail, cause damage and have the insurance company tell me to go jump if I made a claim.
If I built my own place and incorporated ideas, very different story.

I'd love to get some land that had running water sufficient for a micro Hydro setup.  Build a little shack out of 3-4 40 ft shipping containers and use that for some of my DIY self sufficiency ideas. Maybe one day.

I got the last of my panels up on the shed roof this morning. Made 28 kwh today even though most of the day was overcast.  Got up early and put them on ( Didn't go to bed actually) which was good timing as the day turned out to be a stinker and hit 44oC here so I had the AC on all day.  Probably cost me $2 all up.  Money well spent.

I think you are correct in what you say about a few panels, inverter and batteries.  Earlier in the year I was playing with this sort of setup.  I was able to run a bar fridge and an electric urn with no problem and could have run a lot more. I did have 8x 190w panels but they were never without some being shaded and 2-3 panels in good sun would have produced the same power, around 500W.
For the urn I used a PWM controller so I could run the urn at anything from 1w to 2kw ( briefly) but I used to have the thing sit at around 50w which was enough to keep it just off the boil. Turning it to 500w when I wanted a cuppa had a rolling boil in 15-30 sec.  I liked playing with that!

My nephew has been working in cambodia on a solar sharing project. Because they are so poor there, a single solar panel is a luxury well out of reach.  Because of the sunshine there a panel will get good yeilds so the idea is to have one panel shared amount several " Homes".  The panel will charge batteries in succession and there will be a power company that owns the equipment and the villagers will pay  to have the power connected. Not amount used but rather just to have it.  The scheme is heavily financed by the government and some private enterprise. They are going to install some micro grids at 60V and have a small solar farm and some batteries in the middle of the village and distributed around homes and businesses.  My nephew is writing software for controller to designate power, control outputs and do billing which of all things will be done by smart phone because many homes have one!

Just having an electric light, one light, makes a big difference to these people and means they don't have to take old car batteries into town to be charged or burn kero lamps which is expensive and makes the huts filthy with soot.  The other luxury these people have is a radio.
Amazing how the little things can make such a huge difference when you don't have them.