its taken a very long time for the worm to turn, and i guess to those who wait all things will come?
got an email solicitation from the epa's combined heat and power group, they relate that the president has cut
the epa's budget by 32% and is doing away with things like the combined heat and power efforts of the epa.
they are looking for signatures for a letter to congress to save their group and its efforts.
me? i would be much more receptive to signing a letter "if" and only "if" the epa would pull back its draconian restrictions that has proven to pretty much kill the independent efforts of so many fine folks via the banning of CI (compression ignition) engine (aka diesel's) back in what ? '05? has it been that long?
talk about stifling innovation and creativity! and for what? to protect those at the top of the food chain at the expense of so many little guys, of which maybe a few might have made a significant contribution to just what it was the epa was trying to do!
again, i won't be signing any such letter, unless there is a rollback of the regulation on sub 25hp CI engine's by the epa, or
alternatively i would be very much in favor of testifying to congress in committee about what it is we do, what we have done, and more importantly what we could be doing if given half a chance.
i wonder how many apple computers, microsofts, amazon, googles, etc would have come to life had they had the EPA regulating them out of existence before they even got off the ground?
think what you will of mr. trump, however any man or woman that can bring some measure of sanity to these bureaucracy's even if it means cutting off their food source (read that money) is ok by me.
it is way past time for the pendulum to swing our way in my opinion.
don't know about all the rest of you guys, but i am tired of being the mole on the "whack a mole" table!
nice to have someone try to take away the mallet, or at least reduce the size of the damn thing!
bob g
Aloha bob,
I live in the DIY camp as do many if not most of the readers and contributors here and at LEF. I have no tolerance for NO TOLERANCE programs. Hence my discomfort with the nitty-gritty rules that effect 1% of the 1% that peruse their dreams.
However, I'm afraid that you've misinterpreted the crippling of the US EPA. This move is another in the unrelenting dream of the super rich, like President Trump, to own the entire planet completely not just 90+ percent of it. If they were left wingers then they would be labeled wealth RE-distributors but as conservatives we all know they're the courageous and freedom loving job creators. Yep, them guys work for us. You see, this exclusive group has lots of their marbles tied up in fossil fuels and they don't want to loose their marbles. And the sustainable life on this planet folks just don't understand what these investments represent. What do you want in your back yard? A solar station or a coal fired power plant? Tough decision - Huh? In some chumps back yard that lives 150 miles from you in an ungated community? Not so tough especially when you're saving humanity. From?
As for us that dream; are our fancies of a private power station more important than the health struggles of the growing asthmatic people in the US and probably soon the world? Balance. Is it achievable? I've heard that sewer ditches, yup - ditches, have saved more lives than any other single public health initiative.
Consider that regulations cost money while non regulations cost lives. What is the price of freedom?
Casey
Some no longer defensible practices:
Two Cycle Outboards
Diesel School Buses
Coal Mining
Thinking
I'd ratchet the threshold to <20hp, and only water cooled, hard to co-produce with air cooled engine. I wonder if a modern material Lister 8/1 could be built - even a run of 1,000 would be a boost. Would be nice to have balanced gear without voids and pits. Even with the factory glop painted in the crankcase, oil drips through the iron.
I don't have a dog in this fight, being as I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic (and/or the Pacific... nearer that ocean at the moment), but Casey I have to pull you up one part of your post:
Quote from: LowGear on April 17, 2017, 12:27:56 PM
...You see, this exclusive group has lots of their marbles tied up in fossil fuels and they don't want to loose their marbles...
Surely, in that case, the use and abuse of small diesel engines of ANY description would be welcomed, indeed, encouraged by said people? After all, most will run them on diesel, not WVO or WMO, and they all need "fossil" oil etc.
Just my 0.02 CNY.
Aloha AdeV,
Yes, I agree with you. Holy smoke, made from recycled pasteboard boxes of course, we're in agreement. As I reread my post of yesterday I'm still happy with it. The part that I didn't emphasize enough was that the ruling class don't really give a damn about our few thousand gallons of diesel per year. If we get brought in that's simply our good fortune but not a priority in the plan. In fact, we could be easily sacrificed to demonstrate how they're working to make the air clean enough for humans. Their plan involves millions of gallons of fossil fuel per day. OK, millions of barrels every day. Even mike90045's less than 20 hp makes sense to me but now we're flirting with power equipment engines and the gallons per day really begins to jump up there. Ever wonder why Kubota, Deere and the many other small equipment manufactures can import or manufacture thousands and thousands of diesel powered machines per year that have absolutely NO clean air apparatus on them at all and we can't import a few thousand stationary engines?
Building lower speed engines is a beautiful idea but please keep in mind that there are states that are fighting the Tesla distribution model because their legislatures are controlled by fossil fuel people rather than some future oriented sustainable planet entrepreneur. Automobile dealerships are still dominated by fossil fuels. Just check their manufacturing schedules. I'm thinking that less than 1% are directed towards non fossil fuel powered equipment. Yes I see that this undermines my argument but it illustrates the wants and needs of the power affluent or should I write effluent.
Casey
all this is just so much blah, blah blah to me... that is that from the so called ruling class, not from those here on our forums
here is what i think, or rather what i truly believe
give us the sub 20hp class CI engine's, but... regulate the crap out of them if you must.
tell us that they must be reported on, as to where they are used, and for what purpose
(of course we are talking chp use only)
limit the run time hour per day if you must, or hours per year
make us fill out and file a report as to
1. location of unit
2. hours of operation during filing period
3. kw/hrs electric produced
4. btu's harvested and put to use
5. method of smoke abatement
6. fuel type(s)
7. fuel consumed (gallons or cu/ft)
and maybe a few dozen other parameters?
yes it would be onerous (read that pain in the arse), however
it would be something many of us could find a way to comply with, rather than just saying "no" you can't import them!
the idea here is to base the operation on btu's recovered and used vs. btu's of fuel consumed! instead of the metric they
are using which does not account for recovered btu's of waste heat.
had the epa tried to do a pilot program, i for one and i suspect many others here and other forums would have gladly met the provisions of the program and worked to develop systems that not only complied but improved on what the minimum standards set out in the program.
that is where innovation comes from, yes regulate and make rules, then get out of the way and let the little guy (and yes the big boys too) have a go at it to see if they can succeed.... many will fail, some will pass, and a few will excel.
with forums like these and the free exchange of information, my bet is the end result would be something much more useful and cleaner than anyone would expect.
we have all read, thought about, even tried the idea's of scrubbing the exhaust via a variety of effective mean's, leaving the epa with no real complaints with mini chp plants using CI engine's
having been involved on a local level now for 2 years as mayor of my little city, i have had a crash course in just how whacked our governance really is... and i have no reason to believe that state, fed, or world governance is any less mess up, let alone un-elected bureaucracies like the epa. an agency populated by perhaps well meaning folks that have found that there is much money in controlling other folks. an agency that in my opinion that has a very centrist view of life on this planet.
i am blathering on, just my blah, blah, blah...
bob g
maybe the EPA will be pushed back into an agency to control pollution instead of being power trippers on an agenda to alter society into an Agenda 21 paradise.
Aside from keeping the engine in proper operating order, how do you perform smoke abatement ? a 5Kw scrubber unit ?
Quote from: mike90045 on April 18, 2017, 10:28:51 PM
Aside from keeping the engine in proper operating order, how do you perform smoke abatement ? a 5Kw scrubber unit ?
Jam a sponge up the tailpipe...? Replace hourly if it's REALLY smoky?
Yes bob,
Democratic organizations are screwed but the alternatives seem to quickly run a muck as well. I'm sure that in spite of your common sense approach to life that there are folks working hard against your programs and agenda. I appreciate your challenges and hard work.
WOW buickanddeere,
You really hood winked me into that Paradise Stolen - Agenda 21 video set. https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_agenda21_20.htm (https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_agenda21_20.htm)
But we all know I'm not quite as subtle as most of the rest of you so I linked over to it. I was almost ready to move except for the fall leaves on the ground which hints way too strongly that it's going to get nasty in a month or two. Once you Winter out in a civilized climate it's pretty tough to go back - thinks me.
OK, there's a fair burden of Pie in the Sky but we're all adults and it's an enjoyable six minute watch but do have your rubber boots on and your glass cleaner handy. I spent 12.64 months in Korea as a member of the United States Army - Freedoms Frontier. The longest three years of my life. Area 21 looks pretty damn sweet from there.
NOW; Does anyone have any real idea of how the small internal combustion engine people get to power their tractors, mowers, dozers, generators and the like get away with the importation and / or manufacture of small diesel engines - low speed or high here in the states? For a couple of thousand bucks I can go down to Costco, Lowes or Home Depot and buy a <10 HP diesel powered generator. HTF? or should I write WTF?
Casey
Hi again,
I watched all five episodes. It starts to fall apart hard on Episode 4 and Episode 5 demonstrates the art of double counting. It's really a shame because the first three are really fun. Oh well; so goes paradise.
Any word on those diesel generators or lawn tractors?
Casey
BobG you miss the current declared world/planet killing "danger" point.
It is far past just soots and particle abatement's for CI's of 'ol late 21st century.
The real (to them) problem is the carbon dioxide emissions that will result form ANY hydrocarbon combustion fueled engine or process. This has become very culture entrenched in our young since the early/mid 1990's. Portland OR Zoo has a walk across concrete enlarging carbon foot print for the kiddys to traipse across to show that they/we US'ingons are the largest foot print problem on the planet, today. Japan's is shown smaller. EU's shown as smaller too. Ooo! Ickie! We Bad!
Bit disingenuous expecting w-i-d-e spread out USA, Canada, Australia and others to have to match the urban dense, rack'em, stack'em, pack'em areas, eh?
Mr Casey,
All of these modern EPA Level IV redesigned compliant small diesels from John Deere, Kubota, Yanmar, Kohler, and others cannot be bought at COSTCO, Home Depot, Harbor Freirght. Up-ass and go look. Nope. You have to pony up the big bucks to buy these from dealers to pay for the redesign, testing and certification costs.
The quietest, cleanest smelling vehicles driving by my rural county road ARE THE NEW compliant diesel engineered yellow school buses. Ain't no bigHydro/BigCNG/Nuke power station fed Grid charging stations out here in the rural for our kids. We supposed to just leave these rural kids behind? Or move them into the rabbit warren ant-hill shitty's for the very best sheeple training?
Also face the reality man that the LeftProgreesive Elites are just as current make-money/retain-wealth bought-in as the RightRegressive Conservatives Elites. Just as much wealth/vestment in the Clintons/Obamas/Gates' and the La-La land Hollywood crowd as the N.Y. banker types. They ALL want your buy-in to their products-spin. And your proxy vote support for their wealth/influence pyramids.
NO DIFFERNCES to the ordinary Joe and Jane.
To these "you-must" folks; Left or Right, ultra-religious (green-spin is a religion too) it is all about social/psychological control for . . . . [fill in your own blank].
Only by making small usable personal use power systems: legally, semi-legally, illicitly, needs-must flat-out "catch me if you can" can you ever truly be free.
And until you do energy use free yourself you will be dependent.
No longer a Sheeple. Any only semi-dependent. Grid goes down like it has six times now since Thanksgiving and then I can fall-forward, one rope pull, flip-switch to Free Independent. Ha! Wife insist on a working hair dryer. And I insist on safe, clean electric lighting.
J-I-T Steve Unruh
i understand the whole co2 debate
as for scrubbing
having been out in my garden this morning and mowing around a rather large wood chip pile
i can't help but recall my thinking of running the cooled exhaust into the center of the woodchip pile
and let it percolate though the chip.... which would trap the particulates, of which being carbon are useful to plants in the the co2 being in and around my garden my bet is my plants aren't going to complain much.
i think i could grow mushrooms on the pile and they would do just fine, the microbial action would be ongoing right through the winter months as well.
sure as heck would not have any plumes of black smoke or black smoke rings telling tale on my operation.
i think it wouldn't be too hard to prove a carbon neutral operation using such a scheme.
now before anyone asks, my exhaust heat after the exchanger drop is right at 240F at max loading (down from 640F)
so i can't see any issues with starting my chip pile on fire.
bob g
Wood chip mulch piles do grow mushrooms
(yay pic upload works )
Diesel in the market place today.
Home Depot: I'm thinking a couple of these are diesel?
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Outdoors-Outdoor-Power-Equipment-Generators-Standby-Generators/N-5yc1vZbx9s/Ntk-Extended/Ntt-generator?Ntx=mode+matchpartialmax&NCNI-5 (http://www.homedepot.com/b/Outdoors-Outdoor-Power-Equipment-Generators-Standby-Generators/N-5yc1vZbx9s/Ntk-Extended/Ntt-generator?Ntx=mode+matchpartialmax&NCNI-5)
Diesel from Costco:
https://www.costco.com/Generac-5000W-Diesel-Generator-with-Electric-Start.product.100249072.html (https://www.costco.com/Generac-5000W-Diesel-Generator-with-Electric-Start.product.100249072.html)
Diesel from Lowes: Look familiar?
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Generac-Xd-5000-Running-Watt-Portable-Generator-with-Engine/999960937 (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Generac-Xd-5000-Running-Watt-Portable-Generator-with-Engine/999960937)
Diesel from Kubota:
https://www.ebay.com/p/?iid=282436499499&lpid=82&&&ul_noapp=true&chn=ps (https://www.ebay.com/p/?iid=282436499499&lpid=82&&&ul_noapp=true&chn=ps)
It goes on under the still crushing rules of the Lefty Imperialists. I wonder why slow speeds are so unpopular and unworthy of market from the big guys?
I agree that the market is a dangerous force regardless of who the stock holders are or their political rhetoric. As for Mr. Gates; he now has some pretty nice values and programs but back when he was in the market he trampled many competitors or suspected competitors.
Did any of you watch the whole series of five YouTube video. Wow! Did it fall off the scale of sanity or what. Has anyone checked the math?
Are those eatable mushrooms or just a science project? Warming garden soil for early planting or winter greenhouse production is quite a wrinkle.
Casey
Ahh . . . heck. The curse of 15 minute edit lock out.
My post above the second line of " 'ol 21st century" should have been 20th Century.
Yep Mr Casey, my point. You cannot walk into to any COSTCO, Home Depot, Harbot Frieght and in stock buy a diesel engined generator. I've looked. I've asked, many times.
And on-line ordering these off of thier web sites gets you your Kohler, Kubota, and others generator shipped DIRECT TO FROM A MANUFACTURE/DEALER.
And this ship-to-you is the most srtaighline answer to why no more slow speed deisels supported into the USofA. They weigh too much. Too much container shipping capacity taken up. Too much weight in manufacturing materials cost for maximum profits to the makers/distributors.
And of course they then use big-fish-eat-littler-fish to keep out competitors. Restrictive Progressive Emissions regulations complained about, but complex/expensive "complied with" as a keep deep-pocketed monopoly hurdle.
No I do not view youtubes beyound 1-3 minute show 'em's.
I walked away from the family holi-roller screech and preach church at 15 yours old. Never let myself be rah-rah crowd-sourced since.
I read instead.
I read some of the Agenda 21 books instead. Only so-so stories. Others are much better. Ayne Rand's fictions. Huxley's. Others since post-2001.
I also read three different versions of the Christian Bible. Read a lot of Dahli Lama. Read some other Buddhist writings. Have a Koran I can refer to as needed. Read a lot of biography's
If I find myself moved by what I've read; I then search out a writing of a critical counter view.
THEN make up my own I-N-D-P-E-N-D-E-N-T opinion. Ford was an only so-so family man. Edison actually a terrible family man. Tesla had no grown family. Weird man all in all. Admire George Westinghouse far above these guys.
I am neither Demo/Prog, or Repulican/Neo. Not a strict Rand/Libertarian either.
Reading you can always part read, set aside and let the steam cool down. Go back later, re-read, and thoughtfully reflect. Go back years later and see if it still holds water. Your conclusions stand the test of time.
Wanna' expand your current culture horizon? Read this:
wwwkustner.com/clusterfuck-nation/forcast-2017-wheels-finnally-come-off/#more-
James H. Kusnstler says in his book, "Too Much Magic" that he is a NY state registered DEMO. In his 2017 Forecast (if you bother to read it in detail) he supported neither Hilllory C. or D. Trump
His friend, blogger Chris Martenson on his PeakProsperity.com hints he is a registered Republican. He supported neither Hillary C. or D. Trump either.
Yet both of these fellows future looking have moved themselves out rural and small town from the NYC Shitty area. Both have big gardens. Both raise back yard live stock. I've always been rural. Stayed rural except for some months urban living, temporarily working in the shittys of Portland OR and Seattle/King Co WA.
Now read Bill McGire, Varley and others best you move back from the always-been, always-will-be too volitle of ocean edges, to inter-continent temperate zones. Settle in there thousands years proven as as stable as 'ol Mother will give you..
Ha! That would be Mobile Bob!
Settle where you can hunker. Then DO hunker in socially where you did settle.
J-I-C Steve unruh
Thanks for the bibliography.
OK, so the next logical question (logical to me). Why do slow speeds need to be to 19th century built. How does rotating at 1800 or 3600 as many do today get by with less structure than 600?
Has anyone experimented with slowing these modern guys down? Is it all a flywheel requirement?
Casey
Mr casey the best engineering answers to this was given a few years back on the Lister Engine Forum by a member known as blackseasix? Hr was a former Petter engine engineer who worked to rationalize the Lister engine designs after Lister and Petter became one.
He thought it was was nuts from an engine engineering stand point to go back to idolizing the big singles versus the post WWII evolved 2 and 3 cylinder engines.
When the big singles originally evolved precision machining work was expensive. Lubricants were base stocks simple. So really they were doing the best they could in the price of manufacturing/operation range. Aircraft and advancing auto racing showed even in the 1920's and 1930's much better was possible . . . for a price.
Post WWII the massive wars invested industries could then affordably machine multiple cylinders, pistons, valves/valve seats, cam lobes, etc. Lubricants, metals alloying, wear/corrosion resistant coatings all advanced late 1940's thru the 1960's. This allowed higher operating RPM's, higher operating temperatures for the same, even longer, hours of operational life. Late 20th Century tech's.
A single cylinder four stroke as the RPM increases will have closer spaced in time power strokes, delivering that power smoother to the work. 2, 3, 4 cylinder engines do this much closer spaced power PULSE delivery better yet. Ha! Ha! Yes this goes on true into inline 6, V-8, V-12, V-16 engines. DIMINISHING RETURNS on manufacturing/operational costs past three cylinders for just DYI home heat and power.
And home power sized four stroked inline three cylinders are self smoothing out so you no longer need big honking flywheels, mounting bases, etc.
Assumed Premises are the DYI problem to getting real in this world results, to useable.
Assuming less cylinders right down to one cylinder will always be better is a mistake.
Assuming that slow speed will always give the best fuel to power utilization is amistake. 650 rpm good, so 350 RPM just must be better, eh. NOT. Not in DYI home power. Massive ocean ships burning industrial wastes oils, probably, yes.
THE FIRST REASON for the slow speed Listeroid was the Assumed belief these could be all urban wastes oils fueled. Maybe so. Now live with the hopping, no more imported, hard to get parts. Chanfa-zoids eleiminated the hopping/ground thumping and a lot of the noise, maybe useable for urban wastes oils as fuels too. Still; the no more imported complete units, hard to get parts.
SECOND REASON Assumed for superiority of these CSLister's was the belief in 30,000 hours service life possibility. Lister Engine Forum member hottater very well proved to expect 5,000-7,000 hour service life before major rebuilding needed. Others here now microcogen should have racked up the hours now to confirm this.
Jeez man. I get routinely 4,000 hours service life on all of my watercooled 1500-2400 loaded rpm ran modern four strokes. And not just me. These are wide range expectations.
Well since on our rural 17 acres I have NO restaurants making daily oils, daily usable amounts of waste motor oils; we do not generate enough worn out tires and consumer plastics for any reasonable daily use amounts of energy capability for me using these has never been an interest.
Nope our annual solar energy is natural species growing trees. Same for the whole of the Pacific Northwest wetside. Ha! And NO ain't none of my trees that will grow fuel pellets, or fuel chips!
Late 20th Century overhead, and early21st century overhead cammed four stoke engines operating at 1500-4300 rpm and I can now too power our lives.
Another Asuumed Premis: that you must have a water cooled engine to be able to CHP.
The air cooled plastic suitcased inverter genrators blow ALL heats concentrated out one end. Farm this.
My Miller/Kohler Trailblazer 302 genrator welder would pull-in all cooling airs from both ends and blown out concentrated heats at the center housing doors. This ran at two RPM, 2400 and 3600. The next generation Miller Trailblazer 325 model they reversed the engine mounting so all systems heats go out one end. These advanced further to operated with produced AC power in four fuel saving RPM ranges.
Being tight-rpm synchronous Asuumed as always needed is a 20th century limitation.
21st century you use only the engine rpm actually needed to produce the shaft power actually needed at the time for generation. This saves fuel, wear, noise and operational costs.
Usable amounts of PV solar is very 21st century. Why Assume lock this back into the 1920's, and 1930's limitations?
Even in the 1970's-1990's those of us actually doing it knew to use variable rpm DC charging for the simplest, lowest costs home made power. Disadvantages? Yes. For cheap, affordable realistically only ~2.5 kW systems. Really did need a battery bank even if not PV solar.
And yes with an bit of finger walking you too can find made in this world, currently available variable speed compression ignition (diesel) inverter generators.
You betcha'. Big inverter units, just like the Miller Trailblazers will cost a bit more than a penny. $4,000 to $8500.
But Assuming you can match functioning performance, operating cost of operation, longevity, serviceability versus a factory engineered, works proven system with dealer support is the very worst DYI Premis.
Wished I could get back the $650 truck freight is cost me to get that first 12/1 Listriod fro Maine to here Washington state. Then add in a few did not work out, set aside no longer use, E-Bay bid/bought then UPS shipping destroyed things; and knowing now I could have dealer walked in and bought the Miller generator welded, cash with these missteps. And could have done this near ten years ago, by avoiding my own premise assumptions.
Or dealer walked in and cash bought four Honda 2000 suitcase inverter units.
Or dealer walked in and bought two Honda or Yamaha 3000 inverter generators, cash.
J-I-C Steve Unruh
Wow,
Thanks for the great reply.
I've always wanted one of those super-duper welders.
Aloha,
Casey