Has anyone used an IBC Tote for thermal storage ?
Apparently the HDPE plastic is rated for continuous duty temperatures of 110C (230f).
I think that's a bit of a stretch and I would never intend to operate near those temps.
I am considering the possibility of using one inside a well insulated (outdoor) enclosure as a store for thermal heat.
This way I could push heat from my generator and solar hot water panels into the same low level heat storage tank.
I suspect my target temp would be 140f.
From the tote, I could circulate water through the wall radiators in my cabin.
Anyone have experience with this ?
veggie
Polypropylene is more common for higher temps. HDPE structural strength is going to seriously deform well below it's melting point at 260F. I'll be very interested to know how your setup holds up if you do use the IBE.
More common is the use of epdm rubber sheet lined wood/plywood tank. EPDM will take the heat for 20 years. Typically foam board is used to line the wood box, then EPDM goes inside that. Another approach is a band of sheet metal to make a round tank, with ripped foam board planks and EPDM or other liner inside that. I like the latter for extremely low cost, the thin sheet galvanized is entirely in tension.
See-
builditsolar.com
Great website, really nice retired aero engineer owns it and has provided a lot of good data on his designs
Hey Veggie, I hear that things are a tad nippy out your way these days ..... not a vegcickle yet ?
I did at one point look into that but if I recall correctly the temperature rating was more in the 80 degree C range. I think you would be ok at 140F.
I agree with Bruce, much better to build a wooden tank to maximize volume for the available location. It's also inherently more secure and if you plan to build an outdoor enclosure, you are already half way there anyway!
Hey guys,
(Jens,... -29C here this morning) :o
I did a bit more digging around. It seems that 140f-175f is quite safe for totes.
Companies such as this...
http://www.kapton-silicone-flexible-heaters.com/TOTE%20HEATERS-Brochure.pdf (http://www.kapton-silicone-flexible-heaters.com/TOTE%20HEATERS-Brochure.pdf)
make industrial tote heaters.
The nice thing about the totes is that they are free ! (in my case) and I can fit them into a small skid enclosure that is not much bigger than the tote.
Was thinking that I could insulate the heck out of it (Enclosure and tote) and drag it beside the outside wall of my mechanical room.
Jens, what was the temperature of the low level heat that you used to maintain in your hydronic system ?
I was planning to circulate 150f water through my wall radiators.
veggie
PS:
Found this on an HDPE Tote mfr's website...
Plastic Properties of High Density Polyethylene (HDPE):
A linear polymer, High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) is prepared from ethylene by a catalytic process. The absence of branching results in a more closely packed structure with a higher density and somewhat higher chemical resistance than LDPE. HDPE is also somewhat harder and more opaque and it can withstand rather higher temperatures (120° Celsius for short periods, 110° Celsius continuously).
Is the tote carrier, the wire cage that lets it be hauled by forklift, included?
The limits suggested may be to keep the molded plastic from deforming and bulging beyond the cage mesh.
How about cutting the top(s) off and lining with foam board and the membrane, make a nice double-walled safety container...
My plan is to keep the plastic tank within it's metal frame for strength.
Push heated water in thru the bottom connection and draw water from the top to circulate.
veggie
Quote from: veggie on December 06, 2013, 12:27:06 PM
The nice thing about the totes is that they are free ! (in my case)
Jens, what was the temperature of the low level heat that you used to maintain in your hydronic system ?
I was planning to circulate 150f water through my wall radiators.
veggie
PS:
Found this on an HDPE Tote mfr's website...
Plastic Properties of High Density Polyethylene (HDPE):
A linear polymer, High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) is prepared from ethylene by a catalytic process. The absence of branching results in a more closely packed structure with a higher density and somewhat higher chemical resistance than LDPE. HDPE is also somewhat harder and more opaque and it can withstand rather higher temperatures (120° Celsius for short periods, 110° Celsius continuously).
I feel the sudden urge to come to Calgary (in the spring though!) to pick up a truck load of free totes. I paid around $100 for mine and sold them for $75.
Keep in mind that there is all kinds of different plastic and just because one outfit spec's high temperature it doesn't mean that what you have available will be the same plastic.
I would suggest that 150F is too hot for open wall radiators (from the 'burn your fingers view) unless they are screened. You might also run into issues with erratic heat. I ran my hot water into a water to air heat exchanger that was in the plenum of my central hot air furnace. By the time it came out of the registers it was about the same temperature as if the electric furnace had kicked in. My heat storage system went up to about 180F maximum before the engine would shut down so the actual water going into the water to air exchanger could be up to that temperature but was usually considerably less. Flow though the heat exchanger was turned on by the regular house thermostat and would last longer with colder water.
If burning of body parts is not an issue, I would try 150F especially at the current temperatures out there. You got nothing to loose and setting up a tempering system if 150F is too hot is fairly straight forward.
Quote from: DanG on December 06, 2013, 03:38:03 PM
Is the tote carrier, the wire cage that lets it be hauled by forklift, included?
The limits suggested may be to keep the molded plastic from deforming and bulging beyond the cage mesh.
How about cutting the top(s) off and lining with foam board and the membrane, make a nice double-walled safety container...
The plastic liners are not strong enough without the cage. Cutting off the top only serves to reduce physical strength and encourages quicker cooling by evaporation.
Running the system at 150f is what I had in mind,
I am sure I will have lots more questions as I finalize the design.
My evacuated tube solar panels make 2600 btu/hr each. There are five of them.
I am also incorporating engine coolant heat and electric element head from the generator.
This system has real "dollars in the pocket" value because the current heating for the building is done totally by electric baseboard heat.
In the coldest months the electric bills can be fairly high. If I can cut the demand on the electric elements by 50% it will make a huge difference to heating costs.
veggie
By the way....
is it ok to send 150f water back to the engine for cooling ? or do I need to temper (cool) the engine coolant to a lower value ?
or .. to put it another way...
Assuming a 195 thermostat, what is the max temp for coolant returning to the engine ?
veggie
i don't recall exactly but my 195 trigen from memory had a return temperature of about 180F
and the fan did not kick on till 214F, and cut off at 205F
in my opinion i see no reason why one would need to or would it be beneficial to the engine to have return water any cooler than that.
many large engine's run with ~5-10 degree differential
fwiw
bob g
Return temp limit is dependent on flow. IE: with a higher starting/inlet temp, you will need to move a greater weight of water to transfer a given BTU out of the engine with a fixed outlet temperature.
I think Sunlight and UV degradation is more of a problem with IBC's than hot water.
I used one for a test of my oil burner fitted to an old gas heater and had the water in an IBC boiling. Admitedly, I didn't keep it there constantly for days on end but I don't see a problem with that.
The cages on the IBC's are very supportive and on slone you could even get a thin sheet of ply or something down the sides to support it even more. Not needed I don't think.
It would be easy to insulate the whole thing with roof batt type material or sheet Expanded polystyrene.
You might even be able to get some old cool room panels and use those as a box which you could screw together as the stuff has enough structural integrity.
That stuff has a really high insulation value.
Quote from: veggie on December 06, 2013, 06:24:40 PM
By the way....
is it ok to send 150f water back to the engine for cooling ? or do I need to temper (cool) the engine coolant to a lower value ?
or .. to put it another way...
Assuming a 195 thermostat, what is the max temp for coolant returning to the engine ?
veggie
No problem at all on the 150F. As mentioned by Ronmar, flow will determine the maximum temperature. Of course engine load also counts.
You will probably be ok up to about 200F on the cold side (more if you have any kind of pressure coolant system going)
you might consider dropping the tote down into a reinforced plywood box, leaving a couple inches all around and then pouring in some of that expandable foam?
it would expand and fill the void, insulate pretty well and give excellent support to the tots plastic side walls.
just a thought anyway.
i think you can buy the expandable foam as a two part sort of thing you mix and dump where you want it, or maybe you just hire an insulation company to come out and fill the thing?
alternatively,
build the box, line it with styro blue board or whatever similar that is available, bed the tank down in some sand, fill it with water and then pour sand all around the sides to fill the void... the sand would support the plastic tank side walls and also add a bit of thermal mass?
it might be possible to also incorporate a cooling loop in the sand around the perimeter, that way you would have a good degree of separation so that the loop could be used for domestic hot water without the risk of poisoning yourself with antifreeze that might be used in the tank?
just some thoughts
bob g
http://www.hooversolutions.com/poly-tote-tanks.html
The ones with the cage around them are very thin and a are basically considered "one way" or one time use totes...that's why they are so readily available used and cheap....for something more substantial look at something like the APR type of tote...new ones are kinda pricy but u can get used non certified "out of date " ones pretty cheap...and will last you years. Guaranteed....I have many of them that I use for chemical storage that are 12 yrs old +....just tryin to help.
Here in Hawaii these puppies regularly sell for $200 a pop. I wish I could figure out something to ship into the islands that I could use these for. They sell for about $100 back in Seattle, Washington.
Casey
Quote from: LowGear on December 08, 2013, 10:41:42 AM
Here in Hawaii these puppies regularly sell for $200 a pop. I wish I could figure out something to ship into the islands that I could use these for. They sell for about $100 back in Seattle, Washington.
Casey
Unfortunately I could go pick up a truck load for free here in Sydney. They used to go for good money and the brand new unused ones are still around $150. On fleabay etc they are advertised for around $50. There are a lot of places that get them and when the contents are used up they just want the things out the way. They seem to be getting more popular so I don't see the price going up any.
I have 9 here. 1 I store rainwater in for the garden, 1 spare and the other 7 have WVO in them.
As far as Light and one way goes, I have had the eldest 3 for 5 years and apart from one cracking at the top from UV exposure, they are all fine. I have them with the 15mm pipe type cages and I have them with the wire. The plastic tanks seem the same in all of them excepting slight manufacturer differences in taps etc.
I found a great way to decorate these and protect them from the sun. The Wifes climber plants love the cages and have really gone to town on them. Keeps the sun off them which is good for the plastic and settling the oil and makes them look attractive to the Mrs. Good all round.
Quote from: glort on December 08, 2013, 03:55:12 PM
7 have WVO in them.
So how old is your oldest WVO and how do you keep it from going bad ?
I found that not all toes are the same. Some have thicker plastic than others and the quality of the 2" valve at the bottom varies greatly.
Some have a good quality ball valve and others have a plastic butterfly valve which is made for "one time" shipments of bulk goods to mfg. and food plants.
The opaque "see thru" toes seem to have a thicker plastic than the solid white units.
I have a couple of the solid white ones which originally carried windshield wiper fluid and the plastic is notably thinner than the opaque one that I have.
veggie
Quote from: Jens on December 08, 2013, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: glort on December 08, 2013, 03:55:12 PM
7 have WVO in them.
So how old is your oldest WVO and how do you keep it from going bad ?
More relevant thread here...
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=3235.0 (http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=3235.0)
MobileBob,
I like your idea about foaming the outside of the tank. Adding an R10 skin to a tote would certainly go a long way to holding heat.
Im not crazy about the sand method. I would be concerned about moisture or humidity getting absorbed. Or any accident spill or leak would be impossible to clean from the sand.
The moment it gets wet it becomes a conductor of heat rather than an insulator.
I will look into those two part foam kits.
veggie
Quote from: Jens on December 08, 2013, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: glort on December 08, 2013, 03:55:12 PM
7 have WVO in them.
So how old is your oldest WVO and how do you keep it from going bad ?
Well now you have created a new thread, I'll post the answer I had written there.
:0)
So, the idea is to have an insulated tote linked to 5 evacuated tube solar panels (Max output = 13,000 btu/hr) to create a large dump for low level heat.
On winter days when the sun is gone (or daylight is short) I still need to add some heat so that my draw from the electric grid is kept to a minimum.
This is where a changfa generator can help.
(My listeroid could do the job too, but I think the changfa is better suited to auto-starting and cramped spaces.)
Co-generation can provide electric heat via a heating element in the water storage loop, and engine coolant heat can be exchanged into the 1000 storage tank.
A fairly simple system really. The biggest challenge is constructing a reliable stop/start control system with the appropriate shutdowns and logic.
An easy task for you microprocessor dudes on the forum, but a bit of a challenge for me.
Well, the winter is long and I have a keen interest to figure this out.
Being that I already have most of the components sitting idle (solar panels, tote, Changfa diesel, heat exchanger, etc...) it makes a lot of sense to put this stuff to work and save some real dollars.
I am sure I will have lots more questions to the various experts on our forum as the project progresses.
veggie
This was exactly what I had planned (except not via a tote). A couple of solar heat panels on the roof and a large low heat storage container in the basement. The only difference was an additional tank for high heat storage. The low heat storage was to be used for house heat and the high heat tank was to be used to assist with domestic hot water. Thumper would be used to heat the high heat tank and heat would be spilled to the low level tank once the high level tank was at maximum.
The thinking was to also allow switchover of the solar heat into the high level tank during the summer (or make the low level heat tank into a high level heat tank). We have lots of solar energy in the summer and need no house heating but domestic hot water is still required in the summer.
The start/stop setup was a big issue for me and even though automation was planned it never happened. The biggest problem was the inability to start Thumper reliably.
That was probably another reason why I abandoned the whole thing - it's hard to get motivated to go out into the cold and dark to start up the engine and go back out 4 hrs later to shut things down.
The only ones on the forum that I am aware of are Jens, Ronmar, and Gino who have had operational CHP diesel systems up and running.
If there are others, please pipe in.
Gino had a couple of 165 gallon containers twinned together as a thermal store. (Similar capacity to a tote).
It would be interesting to hear how that system is working after a few years in operation.
Ronmar, what size is your thermal storage tank?
veggie
PS: Jens, with solar panels AND a small diesel you may not have to run the engine so much.
Your system is built and waiting for panels (and maybe a different engine).
Any desire to revive the system?
Pipe! The cooling loop on our cs 6/1 is piped into the hydronic system in the floor of our house. It works real well. I just tee'd into the upper and lower lines to the storage tank.
Quote from: veggie on December 08, 2013, 06:48:05 PM
PS: Jens, with solar panels AND a small diesel you may not have to run the engine so much.
Your system is built and waiting for panels (and maybe a different engine).
Any desire to revive the system?
I have sold all my WVO tankage and the hot water storage tanks have been disposed of. Solar panels were planned but never implemented. I believe that there would be little overlap between the two as we are perpetually cloudy in the winter.
Yes, I am REALLY itching to start anew with some system modifications but I believe reality has kinda thrown a monkey (actually gorilla) wrench into the works. Health concerns have me rationalizing what I should or should not do and at the moment all efforts are directed at my sail boat.
Just on the heat side of things, if one wasn't running the engine for power and the solar panel/ tubes didn't have sufficient solar input, What about using a home made waste oil burner?
I set one up with an old gas water heater. I took out the gas burner and sat the thing over the oil burner and it worked very well. I had no problem BOILING 100L of water in under an hour with the thing and that was pretty much just with the small burner Idling.
For fuel control I bought a small pre-built electronic on/ off timer from fleabay. It controls an electric car pulse type fuel pump. I set the on off times on the timer so the burner does the output I want you could get it down to the precise KW just by measuring the fuel flow. It would also be easy to set up an auto shutoff with a thermostat connected to a relay that de activated the fuel pump and blower when the storage tank reached temp. With the appropriate sighting of the fuel tank and a small start up tank with Kero or some other non freezing fuel for those in the god forsaken cold, the fuel could easily be kept liquid or melted after initial start up to keep up with demand just from the exhaust heat or water returning before the HE.
I have run my burners from a cupful of diesel to start with and then heated solid lard and run the burner flat out from melting that as I went.
My idea was to plumb up a bunch of 200L drums under my house and heat them up and let the heat escape up through the floor. I was also going to use the 200KW heat exchanger I got from an Olympic pool and use that to heat my backyard pool and insulate the top of that with some styrofoam and tarps and use that as the thermal storage bank. I figure I could fire the burner every few days and then just circulate the water from there.
In any case, you can store and use the heat how you want but a Waste oil burner would be close as possible as nothing to run, give all the heat you wanted, ( and I do mean ALL!) be simple to build and save wear and tear needlessly on an engine. You can use WVO, WMO, tranny fluid, solid fat.... whatever is liquid or will melt, whatever you have around and can get free supply of.
Depending on the size of your home and the frozen hell hole you live in, such a burner would probably only need to be run at 5Kw or so which is a walk in the park for anything like this. Even if you wanted 50KW, still no problem at all. you just need to get an amply sufficient Heat exchanger. A car radiator or 2 would laugh at that output and if stacked on top of one another provide a pretty efficient way of transferring the heat as well.
Another thing that may be a workable layer of insulation on an IBC is perarlite. You could build a box around the outside of the cage, fill the inside with pearlite and it would work its way into all the nooks and cranny giving a first layer of insulation. You whatever you want on the outside and you are there. Expanded concrete slabs ( Hebel) also has excellent thermal insulation properties and could be used as part of some sort of structural feature as well.
Quote from: pressurepro on December 07, 2013, 10:15:21 AM
http://www.hooversolutions.com/poly-tote-tanks.html
The ones with the cage around them are very thin and a are basically considered "one way" or one time use totes...that's why they are so readily available used and cheap....for something more substantial look at something like the APR type of tote...new ones are kinda pricy but u can get used non certified "out of date " ones pretty cheap...and will last you years. Guaranteed....I have many of them that I use for chemical storage that are 12 yrs old +....just tryin to help.
Been looking for these APR toes but they as rare as Hen's teeth !
Perhaps more popular in the USA. Not much in Canada.
veggie