The lift pump died in my NPR truck. That's my current prayer at any rate. It's integrated into the injector pump and my local guru has had the same problem with his truck. The injector pump is around $850 so sticking an electric lift pump in back by the tank seems like a simple and cheap alternative. I've seen a couple of deals on Ebay but they're labeled gasoline.
Does anyone know of "the" pump to stick onto this 12 volt truck?
Casey
If your looking for a reliable 12v low pressure pump that is diesel specific. Look at mr gasket brand...they are green colored for diesel....I have 6 of them on rental industrial pressure washers that run for hours at a time...no problems...about 60 Bux and can get st most auto parts...ebay has them also.......
Like this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261113708692?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261113708692?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)
Casey
My local Oreillys has these on the shelf, yours probably does also...
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MRG0/12D.oap?ck=Search_electric+diesel+pump_-1_-1&keyword=electric+diesel+pump
Yep thats it....and oriellys is where I get them lol....
I find it funny that it is rated for diesel, but "*not for fuel injected applications* "
Since all diesels are fuel injected............
Quote from: bschwartz on December 23, 2012, 04:35:36 PM
I find it funny that it is rated for diesel, but "*not for fuel injected applications* "
Since all diesels are fuel injected............
Sounds funny, but...
Diesel rating is probably for the seals. Injector rating is for the pressure. Typical fuel injection system (gas) is 40-80psi.
Michael
Edit for OP: Who makes the injection pump? I'm used to VW Bosch systems, and they tend to be rebuildable. Many times with just a seal kit. More typical is plugged filters or screen in the tank. Does your truck have a check valve? Some times they stick, and you don't get any fuel.
I have used the el cheapo fuel pump (as mentioned above) and it failed in short order when running veggie oil. The only pump I can recommend is one that I have on the tip of my tongue (sticks out tongue) but just can't get the name to come to me. I had a spare one that I sold to Veggie, maybe he can chime in with the name ??????
The el cheapo is ok for diesel but don't try running straight veggy oil through it. The pump I am thinking about is a also not rated for straight veggy oil but has proven itself in many installations. It is a plunger type pump whereas the other pump is a rotary pump. If I recollect correctly, the motor runs all the time. The plunger pump only runs when the output pressure drops (ie fuel is being used).
Found it .... Walbro FRB-5 is the pump I am talking about. Price is about twice that of the el cheapo pump but it is well worth the money and then some!
The "diesel" rated was a joke... I understand it was a pressure issue...... ::)
I'm with Jens on the FRB-5 pumps. I've had two in my two tank Chevy Suburban for 3 years. I keep a spare in the truck just in case, but they have performed flawlessly for about 40,000 miles. I always thought the pump on the veg side would fail, but it just keeps on thumping.
OK, Here's the current round-up.
My WVO Hawaii guru uses the Napa version Facet BK 610-1050 and runs filtered WVO in his NPR - $80 at the nearest NAPA. They've changed it since he bought his three years ago.
Mr. Gasket Electric Fuel Pump (Micro) - # 12D Diesel
This Facet Gold Flow http://www.ebay.com/itm/300835779115?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/300835779115?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
Walbro FRB-5
So when I use the pump handle on the lift pump part of the injector pump I do get bubbles coming up in the tank from the return line. Yes my thumb feels like it's going to fall off and I'm still getting bubbles. The injector pump is many hundreds of dollars so a hundred for a first class lift pump doesn't seem bad.
Casey
I am not sure if the bubbles from the RETURN line tell you anything.
Be aware that the Walbro pump is a low pressure pump, I think it's less than 10 psi. Some injector pumps require a much higher pressure and may have a lift pump and a high pressure pump before the injector pump (ie my F350 Diesel). The Walbro pump is only usable as a lift pump.
Jens, I take it that your F350 is a post '94 powerstroke, as my '94 IDI only has a lift pump.
Just pulled one of the new filters off. Dry as Death Valley. The line comes out of the tank to a water separator and then to parallel NAPA filters and then to the pump. I pulled the line coming out of the filters and blew backwards and got bubbles coming back into the tank on the pick-up line as well.
The a fore mentioned Facet pump from Napa that fixed my local expert's NPR is rated at 4-7 PSI. He also reports that the bubbles are normal.
I'm looking for a source and a price on the Walbro FRB-5 pump.
Casey
Quote from: bschwartz on December 24, 2012, 02:39:20 PM
Jens, I take it that your F350 is a post '94 powerstroke, as my '94 IDI only has a lift pump.
Correct!
Quote from: LowGear on December 24, 2012, 06:14:36 PM
I'm looking for a source and a price on the Walbro FRB-5 pump.
There are only a couple of places on the internet and no bargains are to be had, unfortunately :(
Well I found them for $111 but the catch is I have to buy 15. The onesie-twosie price is $186. It's looking like I going to NAPA or Amazon.
Casey
$155 here
http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/fr_pumps.html
.... And further searching found these.
The FRB-22-2 is rated at 8-11 PSI 12V.
If I needed another, I'd look at these for $113
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/walbro-frb-variable-frequency-reciprocating-fuel-pump
QuoteThe FRB-22-2 is rated at 8-11 PSI 12V.
I like the piston rather than diaphragm concept. And it's in the budget criteria.
Casey
What year is your NPR? Is the IP an inline "A" pump? If it is, the lift pump is not that hard or expensive to replace, and would serve you better than an electric anyway.
Also, if it is the "A" pump, there is a small strainer at the inlet to the lift pump that plugs up with tank debris.
If the hand operated "primer" pump is bad, it is replaceble for less than $25
Terry
Lowgear,
If your NPR has a 4BD1T, or 4BD2T, the lift pump looks like the attached pic.
Hi Terry,
Izzy is a 1986 which means the engine is a 4BD1T.
The air bubbles coming up on the return line in the fuel tank led me to believe the primer pump was working about as good as they ever do. I've looked at your drawing and I can't see where the strainer is located?
Casey
Hi Casey,
When you pull the inlet hose (usually a banjo retained by the inlet bolt), the strainer is either inside of the banjo or the bolt, it is quite small and plugs easily. It is meant to catch the big stuff really. Back to your problem, if the filters you mentioned are BEFORE the lift pump, it is unlikely the small strainer is the issue. BUT, if the filters you mentioned are before the lift pump, they are all subject to being a source of an air leak, and possibly your no run condition. On most of these, the low micron filter(s) were after the lift pump, and before the IP.
If possible connect the inlet to the lift pump to a clean (small) container of clean diesel, pump up with hand pump, bleed at top of IP, then try to start, with the possibility that your pre-filters are the problem.
Also, if your hand pump is like the pictured one, they are notorious for developing air leaks. Look on Ebay for Mercedes Bosch Hand pump. I'll try to find my reference #'s to verify, but there are two main types, conical seat, and copper washer seat.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-DIESEL-BOSCH-HAND-PRIMER-PUMP-/150722262747?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2317bf36db
Terry
Wow Terry,
Can I be your friend?
Casey
Quote from: LowGear on December 28, 2012, 01:50:30 AM
Wow Terry,
Can I be your friend?
Casey
Casey,
I am not quite sure how to respond to that........
But if you're interested, I have attached a few pics of my F150 which has been powered with a 4BD1 for over 70K miles.
Enjoy,
Terry
And more,
Terry
Nice credentials.
Don't worry about responding. The child in me takes over the keyboard and pushes the "Post" button before I have time to provide adult leadership.
Did you purchase the conversion adapters or make your own? I seem to recollect a company that made them for Chevrolet.
Is there any real advantage to the 4BD2T and it's indirect injection? I dream of WVO and front disk brakes.
Casey
Casey,
We bought the motor in 1981, when Isuzu was trying to compete with Cummins in the bread truck re-fit market. It was N/A and we bought it with a Chevy conversion kit (as seen in the one picture). To put it in my Ford, I re-drilled the adaptor plate for Ford, and coerced the hub into thinking it was Ford like. The hub plate bolts to the flywheel, then the hub bolts to it, then a flywheel or flexplate is bolted to that. The extra flywheel mass doesn't hurt a bit. Fun project, but the motor had been in a Dodge van from 1981 until 1987, then it sat unused until 2008. The Ford runs like a 300 six on steroids, and over 70K+ has averaged (all told) 25.1 mpg.
Terry
Quote from: EBI-WPO on December 28, 2012, 10:12:24 PM
... The Ford runs like a 300 six on steroids, and over 70K+ has averaged (all told) 25.1 mpg. ...
Must not hate fellow compression heads.. must not hate...
Huh! Nice, but I dunno why anyone would want to waste a good engine like that on a Ford...... :D
(ducking and running for my life) ;D
Seriously, I'm jealous!
Ron.
Thanks guy's
Casey,
Any luck on troubleshooting? Parts WERE available to rebuild the lift pumps at one time, have not seen anything but complete assemblies for a while. Unless somethings wedged/scored in the bore, or a check sticks, they are not prone to failure for many, many miles. Interested in your findings. Did you bypass filters yet?
Terry
Aloha Terry,
Today is work on the truck day.
I think my first step will be to suck some of the bottom off the tank. On these trucks with saddle tanks you can put your finger inside the tank. I can't see the bottom with a flash light. I know this isn't the short term question but I live at the end of a 700 drive that rises almost 250 feet. It really tires my wife out to push this 4 ton unit up that drive (someone has to steer). OK, my neighbor stops by with his tundra but AAA doesn't support commercial vehicles. Is there a service that does?
I might even throw some grease cutting soap on her (the truck) and wash it off with a low pressure electric washer. Don't let your imaginations get unbridled. I can see the nuts, bolts and banjo fittings but I'd like them to be clean when I pull them apart for inspection.
For the fuel to get to the pump it has to go through a water trap and a NAPA dual parallel fuel filter. I'll be surprised if there is anything in the screen at the mechanical lift pump screen but that will be my first wrench. Priming that pump shouldn't be too tough. I bought a cheapski electric lift pump I just may sneak it into line pre-filter but post water trap to accomplish this task. Messing around with a gravity feed to the lift pump and keeping everything pristine just doesn't seem easy to me. The filters I removed on the road were really clean but about half full on the inside.
Now the nasty stuff is kept on the outside of the medium where you can't see it by peeking inside the filter - right? The fuel or oil comes in on the outside of the filter can, passes through the filter medium and then flows through the center hole on the mounting bracket. This is a correct assumption isn't it?
It's still down in the 60's (68 actually) so I'll wait an hour or two until it warms up before I go out there and brave the elements. ;D
Thank you all for your interest and advice. I look forward to getting the answer to the filter flow question.
Aloha,
Casey
Casey,
It will be interesting to see if your electric will pull thru the water seperator. If the filters past that are half full, it would suggest either water seperator (or tank strainer) is plugged, or an air leak between it and Dual filters. Of course, all bets are off if the hand primer is leaking air and killed pump suction from the git-go. If you can pull through the water seperator, and push through the filters to the original lift pump, it is likely an air leak at the hand primer, stuck check, or similar.
Good luck,
Terry
Status Report:
I got the fuel out of the tank. It doesn't look too bad but there is a scum on the inside of the tank. This is usual for all I know. The pick-up strainer looked clean. I could see the round holes in the little can.
I washed the tank to injector pump to the other side of the engine. You know how addictive those pressure washers are. The injector is a Bosh Licensed 105210 86(8) or B or 3. It was far more dirty below the pump. than the rest of the engine except right at the oil filler. I had been thinking it was sloppy oil filter changing but a leaky hose on the pump would drip or ooze right in this area.
Tomorrow - Pump
Where's the check valve?
Casey,
There are two check valves, one below the Hand Primer (access by removing same), and one below the outlet line (remove banjo bolt and line to access). These are both on the top side of the Lift pump, and have a spring above them.
Good luck,
Terry
Aloha Terry,
I'm so relieved. It rains two, maybe three days in December here in Honaunau - South Kona, Hawaii. It rained Christmas all day. This is neat on a farm. So I thought "What the Hell, I'll leave the truck out dump and cab up as well. I think I would have gotten away with that but I got extra lazy and left my pet tractor out as well. Just as I popped the banjo on the lift pump to inspect the screen it started to rain. "Is it a teaser or a real one?" "Damn the torpedoes - Full speed ahead. The screen had one chunk of something on it so I reassembled it. I put some silicone grease on the o-ring so the bolt wouldn't rip it up as I put it under 22 pounds of torque. (Don't believe everything you read on the internet.)
So I next put the electric fuel pump in for testing purposes right off the tank pick-up tube. I'd like to say I cracked the banjo at the lift pump but I'm just not that sophisticated. I pulled the rubber line off the metal tube that passes through the frame about a foot before the banjo. It took a moment but then there was fuel. By the time I got it slide back on I could hear fluid hitting the ground. Residue from the line crack? Rain finding an escape route? NO! I shouted with glee. The return line from the lift pump was spewing diesel onto the ground. It was starting to rain where "No can work, Bra - rain coming down." was the astute observation. I put everything away, pushed the truck under it's tent, parked the tractor next to it and it continued to rain even better. What a great time to wash the solar panels.
So I feel the next step is to replace most of the 26 year old fuel lines. Is everyone burned out on this tread? Should I stay with it and seek recommendations for fuel lines that will carry anything through the next two decades?
Thanks for hanging in there Terry.
Casey
IZZY is aline.
The dead line had what looked like a popped blister. I changed out the two hard to get to lines with the best line I could find in town. The other lines I more or less visually inspect every time I fuel up. I wanted to buy some of that blue lined super stuff but I didn't want to wait a week for it to get here. The line I got is rated at SAE 30R14.
I replaced the lines, turned on my temporary fuel pump which pulled about one amp off my battery charger and waited a couple of minutes while it circulated the fuel through the lines as I looked for weeps and leaks. It did take about ten start-up tries and some very iffy running before smoothing out to all four. I ran it for a few minutes and then shut it down, removed the axillary pump and ran it for about 20 minutes on the original factory pump. As per Terry, it keep on ticking.
Again, thanks for the help.
Casey
Casey,
Good to hear that it's running again.
Terry