Started my S195 for the first time a week or so ago, ran for about 10 minutes but never was able to get above idle, it shut down when I tried to increase the speed. Since then I haven't been able to get it to start.
Found there was very weak, sporadic output from the fuel pump. Would only spit out a miniscule bit of fuel about every fourth revolution of the engine. Could never get the fuel line at the injector to bleed properly, cranked with the starter till I figured I'd probably burn it up if I didn't stop, then hand cranked myself to just short of a heart attack. Never got anything resembling decent flow at the injector fitting.
Took the pump out, disassembled and reassembled using some references I found on-line. Everything appears to be fine in there:
No corrosion, everything moves smoothly, seems to be the proper fit between plunger & barrel, reassembled with the rack centered, timing marks lined up and plunger inserted with the helical groove facing the rack, metering valve in the output barrel (correct terminology?) all assembled correctly, and most importantly there is good fuel flow to the pump. Now I have no output at all.
No difference whether cranking by hand or with the starter. Even tried applying a slight vacuum at the pump outlet to try and pull some fuel through the pump while cranking by hand. No luck.
Am I missing something basic? It's not that complicated of a mechanism, I'm 99.9% sure I have the pump assembled correctly but I'm out of ideas.
Any help available from those more experienced and wiser than I?
Steve K
Perhaps I am stating the obvious but...
Have you checked the flow to the fuel pump.
Clogged filter ?
When you open the fuel tap does it flow freely through the pipe to the fuel pump connection ?
veggie
Thanks for replying veggie. Yes, there's good flow to the pump, gushes out when the banjo fitting at the pump is loosened.
Is there enough lift from the cam to the pump? How do you adjust timing on one of these? If it's like the lister pump, it's possible that the timing adjustment has backed off so much that the cam no longer lifts the pump enough for the fuel to flow.
Turn the engine until it comes up against compression and back it up a 1/4 turn (You do not want the pump cam lifting the plunger) then remove the delivery valve cap and spring and pull the delivery valve off the seat with your finger, fuel should run out the pump if not you have a fuel flow problem. Also are you sure you got the rack lined up in the slot on the governor arm?
Is this an engine that had never been fired up until a week ago?
I am new to the changfa design, but if I recall correctly my 1115 has a little hex head nut right adjacent to where the IP is located on the side cover. This nut when turned strokes the IP, to allow you to prime the injector HP line and purge air without rolling the engine over. I think if this nut was in the wrong position, it will hold the pump plunger in the stroked position and prevent it from filling and pumping fuel?
A word of caution:
When working with high pressure fluid, keep your hands, eyes, face protected from spray. It is very dangerous and people lost limbs and died from being injected with fluid.
Yes Ronmar, that will hold the injector pump from working.
Where the heck is Bob? He's the resident 195 Guru.
No disrespect meant to present company!
Ron.
a bit late to the party i see,
i had an issue with a 195 fuel pump only once,
it was related to air in the high pressure line.
you certainly want to loosen the bango fitting bolt on the suction side, and let all the air
out by allowing several ounces of fuel run out into a cup or some other receptical
and then leaving the high pressure line loose, move the throttle lever to full fuel position
and crank it up until all the air is expelled in the line up to the injector... once there is fuel squirtin
out all over the place while cranking just tighten the fitting to the injector and it should start right up.
failing that, there is an issue in the pump, that is if you don't get a decent quantity of fuel squirting out at the injector line to injector connection (line nut).
let me check the parts and service info i have and see if i can see what might be the underlying problem.
brb
bob g
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that lockable bolt/nut on the side cover to act as the fuel limiting adjustment so you cannot put too many coals to her at max throttle?
just found my info
sounds like the pump never worked properly because the engine would not run over idle
i would recheck the following
the fuel delivery valve, make sure it is in correctly the right direction
the fuel delivery valve seat make sure it is flawless, no burrs inside where the valve seats
it has to seal here in order to pull a vacuum to suck in a charge of fuel into the pump.
check the fuel delivery valve seat, where is base meets with the plunger bushing, and the end
of the plunger bushing for burrs, or other damage that might keep the two from fitting together
perfectly, again it needs to seal well to pull a vacuum and draw fuel into the pump.
i am thinking there is likely a tiny burr somewhere, that is allowing fuel to bypass, or an air bubble
recirculate to and fro between the plunger and the injection delivery valve holder/fitting.
it doesn't take much air, and an air bubble sometimes can get caught in the weirdest places.
i suppose it is also possible the the injector is not seating properly either, allowing air to be drawn in
or forced into the fuel system from compression, so you might want to test that too.
check the injector line for obstruction, its unlikely but possible it has a piece of crap blocking it too
although the pressures involved ought to rupture the line.
bob g
All, thanks for all the input. Definitely gave me some things to look at when I get a chance to spend some time on it, probably over the weekend. Short of time right now, will try and respond to some of the replies later in the week.
Steve K
Quote from: rcavictim on August 27, 2012, 09:47:20 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that lockable bolt/nut on the side cover to act as the fuel limiting adjustment so you cannot put too many coals to her at max throttle?
Or don't. :P
rca, i think you are correct
when i first saw the screw i thought it might be a buffer screw
used to catch the throttle at idle like a detroit
but after looking into it on my s195 it is as you stated a limit screw
which limits maximum fuel position or delivery
i suppose it is possible it has been screwed way to far in, but i doubt it
as i think these engines are al started and that screw is adjusted at the factory.
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on August 29, 2012, 01:24:18 AM
rca, i think you are correct
when i first saw the screw i thought it might be a buffer screw
used to catch the throttle at idle like a detroit
but after looking into it on my s195 it is as you stated a limit screw
which limits maximum fuel position or delivery
i suppose it is possible it has been screwed way to far in, but i doubt it
as i think these engines are al started and that screw is adjusted at the factory.
bob g
Thanx Bob. So that is the 'Black smoke adjustment'.
Quote from: rcavictim on August 29, 2012, 02:30:11 AM
Quote from: mobile_bob on August 29, 2012, 01:24:18 AM
rca, i think you are correct
when i first saw the screw i thought it might be a buffer screw
used to catch the throttle at idle like a detroit
but after looking into it on my s195 it is as you stated a limit screw
which limits maximum fuel position or delivery
i suppose it is possible it has been screwed way to far in, but i doubt it
as i think these engines are al started and that screw is adjusted at the factory.
bob g
Thanx Bob. So that is the 'Black smoke adjustment'.
I wondered too. When I had to remove the cover to fix a leak I discovered just as you siad, a rack limit adjustment, or "smoke screw". I have not noticed the other one mentioned that will operate the pump manualy. Must be an optional item installed by certain Mfgs?
Some S195 manufactures do not install Fuel Rack Limiting screws on their engines. Some also have a sight hole to see if the fuel rack lever is inserted properly while installing the gear case. The two S195 Golden Flying Fish engines I had did not have the Fuel Rack Limiting screws. Both did have the Injector Pump priming screw instead. I did have the Injector Pump priming screw on my belt drive S195 genset rotate while running and hung the injector pump in the pumped position. I did take it out and plugged the hole in the gearcase so it would not happen again.
Henry
OK, Let me answer a few of the replies sent. Once again, thanks to all that took the time to help me out.
Reply 3 - Thob - The only way I see to adjust the lift from the cam is to remove some of the shims at the pump mounting flange. Not sure I'm ready to go there just yet. That's messing with things a bit beyond my comprehension at this time. That has other ramifications doesn't it?
Reply 4 - playdiesel - 1) This looks like a good place to start. For all I know with, the multitude of variations on the S195 theme out there (I'm not even sure exactly who made the engine I have) there could be something different with the way the rack is initially aligned or something, who knows? If I can get fuel through the pump statically that will tell me something. 2) Positive I got the ball aligned with the slot in the governor arm. I know this because in my quest for the answer to "What if I. . . " I purposely misaligned the ball on the rack outside the slot in the fork and had one hell of a time getting the pump back out afterwards. So the answer to "What if I do that on purpose? is - - "don't do that."
Reply 5 - hwew - Yes , engine manufactured in 2007, bought in 2007, moved form one storage bin to another for 5 years. Got real serious about it now that we have our own home AND went through our first 3 day power outage in July. Found out that we did just fine with a small borrowed generator for keeping the fridge & freezer cold and a light on in the evening BUT found out real quick that our well pump is 220v and water is real important. Didn't have to lug too many 5 gallon buckets of water up from the creek to realize I liked having a toilet that works without my intervention. Hence my current dilemma.
Reply 6 - Ronmar - Have the priming 'actuator' stowed (the 'flat' facing the roller on the pump) . I did try using it to move fuel through the pump but no joy.
Reply 10 - moblie bob - I've done this BUT with the high pressure line removed. Would that make a difference? When I couldn't get fuel at the injector I just left it off since I had the pump in and out half a dozen times. Didn't think the fittings were meant for a whole lot of 'take it off & put it back on' cycles. Like I said in my original post, I'm not getting anything out of the pump at this point, not even spitting any fuel.
Reply 11 - rcavictim - Something I noticed along the lines of the max fuel adjustment - there's not very much 'throw' on the governor arm from the "start/idle" position to the max fuel stop as it is currently set. I mean very little, with the pump removed the fork on the governor arm is barely out of sight from the notch in the case where the ball on the rack goes in to mate up with the fork in the governor arm. Lot of throw the other way, toward 'fuel cut off'. Don't know if this is normal or not. haven't messed with that adjustment.
Reply 12 - mobile bob - I think this is where I'm going to end up when all is said & done. When I have the fuel delivery valve out to check for static flow through the pump (playdiesel's suggestion) I'll double check everything in there for everything you mentioned. I'm real sure I got it back together correctly, it kind of all fell out and scattered when I removed it from the pump (disassembled on the workbench on clean dry paper towels). Looking at what it does and referencing some pictures I found on-line I put it back together the way I thought it ought to be. I'll post a picture of it laid out for all to look at, I might not be a smart as I think I am, that's happened before :-). Didn't realize that assembly was so susceptible to so many 'little' things. Did keep it clean while reassembling so there shouldn't be an chunks in there but there's other things to look for.
Have checked the pressure line from the pump to the injector. Ran a piece of safety wire through it just to make sure it wasn't blocked. Do appreciate the statement about ". . . the pressures involved ought to rupture the line." Not used to thinking about that as something to watch out for. Goes back to hwew's mention of working with high pressure fluids. Been down that road, mostly learning from others mistakes (lucky for me).
Will hopefully get a chance to play with it this weekend. I'll let you all know how I make out.
Thanks again.
Steve K
remember the function of the fuel delivery valve is basically an output check valve
if that valve leaks due to a piece of crap in the seat or a burr, or swarf, or any other imperfection
the valve won't seat properly.
also the seat back face must be a nice face to face fit to the barrel body, if there is an imperfection
there, it will leak and not seal properly.
without good seal in this area, the pump will either not draw in fuel at all, or be reduced.
by the way, the pump stroke is adjusted by a shim puck under the piston between the spring base
and the piston. the shims that the pump is mounted with adjust the injection timing.
bob g
Well, finally got some to mess with it. Checked for static flow through the pump, that checked out fine, so out came the pump again. Totally disassembled it, used scotch-brite on the delivery valve base and the face of the barrel body. Couldn't find any imperfections at all on either piece, couldn't feel anything and ran a tissue across both faces to see if it would pick up a nick or burr. Cleaned everything with alcohol and reassembled with a very light coat of straight 30wt non detergent oil just to let everything slide properly till I got it back in the engine. Took a picture of everything laid out after disassembly (pic attached or inserted, not sure how this works but will find out shortly), this is the way it went back together.
Cranked it over by hand and got fuel! Checked the delivery line to the injector for obstruction once again, installed and bled at the injector. Never got an actual "flow" but eventually got a good amount of fuel and no noticeable air.
Cranked it up using the starter, got a couple of puffs of whitish smoke then nothing.
Loosened the line at pump and cranked it over, no fuel again. Cranked by hand and with the starter, no output from the pump.
I'm thinking I'm not getting all the air out of the line to the injector so that's what I'm going to try now.
this pump is different than any of the manuals i have
mine do not have the rack and pinion, the plunger element has the
control arm mounted to it on mine
there are several other differences
one that jumps out at me is up toward the upper left of your picture
the second piece that looks like it is partially hidden by the pump body
mine do not have this piece, does it block the port in the delivery valve holder (upper left piece)?
if it blocks the outlet port to the injector line, it shouldn't! at least i can't see why it should
and would be tempted to try leaving that part out.
i forget, do you have a manual for this engine? if so does the manual illustration show all these parts and their relative positions?
bob g
Bob,
The piece you're referring to fits inside the spring, I believe to keep the spring from flexing side to side. It's hollow to allow fuel to flow through it.Leaving it out is going to reduce (or eliminate) the spring tension against the piston in the delivery valve
The manual I got with the engine shows a pump like you have, with the control arm attached directly to the plunger, no 'guide' between the delivery valve spring and valve body, and it shows a retaining screw in the forward bottom of the pump housing that is not present on the pump I have. The basic assembly & function is the same, just some detail differences.
What puzzles me is how the pump can work, then seems to 'lose its prime'. If I can get a couple of puffs of smoke that tells me that all the piece parts can, and do, work (mechanically), something is just preventing them from doing so. If I haven't bled it thoroughly do you think the air remaining is somehow working its way back to the pump and keeping it from working properly?
i do know they flat will not start if there is even a tiny bit of air in the system
so do what you can to get it all out
still thinking on this one
bob g
Took the spring guide out of the delivery valve and tried again. Got fuel up to the injector and bled it there, still won't start, but it tried this time. Making progress. It's got to be air in the fuel delivery line.
When I get it to run I'll put that spring guide back in and see what happens but for now got bigger fish to fry.
Just thinking out loud here, but another thing that can prevent fuel from being pumped is the piston being stuck in the bore. It's only a spring loaded return, so anything sticky in the fuel or if machined to tight may cause it.
another possible problem, one that happened to me on one of my engines
was the fuel supply hose from the tank to the pump was made too long, and was kinked
which over time completely cut off the fuel to the pump... it is tucked up under where
it was not clearly visible.
Tom's suggestion about checking for plunger binding is a good one too!
when its all said and done, it might be you find something really simple that is causing the problem
also another thought, not likely but possible
if the injector is not sealing properly, it might be getting some compression forced back up the tip and into the injector, this will be in effect an air bubble. so maybe pull the injector and check that it is popping off cleanly and at the requisite pressure.
also i don't remember but are you connected to the oem fuel tank, or a remote tank? if remote make sure there is enough elevation of the tank, so that fuel runs out of the fuel supply bango fitting into the pump when you loosen it,, ample flow is mandatory to getting a good purge on the fuel system. remember that the pump is designed to make pressure, and while it might have the ability to lift fuel a bit
i would never suggest having the fuel supply anything but above the pump.
just kicking around more idea's
fwiw
bob g
Sorry for the long pause, other matters took precedent for a while.
Took the offered advice as much as possible and I made progress. The pump is working. I can use a speed-handle at the priming mechanism to push fuel up to the injector fitting and have bled it there. I still can't get it to light off -but- it tries. If I 'prime the heck out of it' (about 30 turns with the speedhandle) I might get one or two 'coughs' out of it with a couple of pretty significant puffs of whiteish smoke, but then it just cranks and puffs out what appears to be mostly unburned fuel (kind of a cross between mostly fuel mist & light smoke is the best I can describe it).
One time after about 5 start attempts it coughed out a lot of very black unburned fuel, I'm assuming it picked up a bunch of carbon from the exhaust manifold & muffler on it's way out.
I even drained all the fuel out of it, tank, filter, pump, and all the lines up to the injector, and refilled with new kerosene (off-road diesel). Reasonable & relevant - I don't know, but was worth a shot.
So thinking along the lines of it is still a fuel delivery problem I'm down to two things;
1) I just have not yet bled it properly
2) the one suggestion from mobile-bob - "if the injector is not sealing properly, it might be getting some compression forced back up the tip and into the injector, this will be in effect an air bubble. so maybe pull the injector and check that it is popping off cleanly and at the requisite pressure".
I'm going to try bleeding it a few more times but if that fails, how would I go about checking the injector, just pull the injector and hook the fuel line back up to it out of the engine and crank it?
What exactly am I looking for, just a consistent pulsed spray?
I don't have any way to check pressure, so I'd have to make an assumption on that being good if the pump is working correctly.
I get the feeling that on these engines there isn't much in the way of 'degrees of working correctly' on the individual components. They either work or they don't. Am I way off base on that?
Thanks to all that replied previously. Look forward to whatever help you all can provide.
SteveK
Kerosene and off road diesel are NOT the same thing. Kero dosn't have very good lubricating properties, so you should only use diesel...
The symptom you describe sounds like it is not delivering quite enough fuel to sustain combustion, or the engine compression is low. It could also be a timing issue. Are you sure the lever from the governor that operates the fuel rack is opening the rack all the way? have you had the gearcase off to check the timing marks and the governor linkage?
The injector performance can be evaluated like you describe, remove it from the engine and connect it to the fuel line and purge out the air. Need to do this in a well ventelated space and wear a mask as diesel vapor is not a good thing to breathe in... It should spray a cloud of vapor abbroximately 12-18" long, with fine vapor, no dripping or large droplets. The cloud should vary in size from nothing to full as you adjust the control lever from off to full... It should also be a single squirt and not pulses if the crank speed is adequate...
Thanks Ronmar, I'll try and check the injector tomorrow.
The fuel rack moves freely up to the point that it hits the pin in the fuel limiter. This is right at the 'start' position on the speed control knob. What it's doing beyond that is hard to judge since it's the spring on the speed control lever against the spring in the fuel limiter pin.
One thing I haven't noticed while bleeding the fuel lines is any difference in pump output with the speed lever at 'start' and with it at 'max rpm'. Kind of points to what you mentioned about not delivering enough fuel to sustain combustion. I guess I could remove the fuel limiter to allow the rack to move full travel and see if I notice any difference in pump output.
I might be back where I started with no (or low) pump output.
Also, can someone tell me more about the "clink" I should be hearing when the injector fires?
From what I read it should be very noticeable, I don't think I'm hearing it.
Is it something I should be hearing from the injector itself?
If it is not present what do I do to fix it?
I've found it takes me about two hours of rocking the flywheel back and forth, to purge all the air out of the pump, and then the fuel delivery line. Then I get the good "clink" or "creak" of the injector actually firing, and then she will start.
Can you turn it past the compression stroke without using the de-compressor cam ? If so, you may have compression loss. Or you are really beefy !
Mike,
I'll take the easy one first, compression seems to be real good. Can't crank it through by hand without using the decompression lever.
Now, about rocking the flywheel back & forth to bleed the pump and lines. Do you mean that literally, as in find the spot where the cam actuates the pump and rock the flywheel back & forth? It will be a long two hours but I'm willing to try anything.
The clink/creak is the sound the injector makes as the firing pressure is reached and the injector pops open and sprays fuel. Too much air and the injector makes no noise as the air in the system absorbs the pressure generated by the IP. As you get the air out, the injector will start to make noise as it opens/fires harder. When cranked slowly by hand thru firing, the injector will make a series of rapid clicks as the pressure builds and is released in pulses. As you increase the cranking speed, the clicks get closer together untill they blend into one single creaking noise...
Having never noticed any such sounds coming from the injector, looks like I haven't bled the air out of the fuel system yet.
Thanks for the help guys, I'll let you know how I make out.
SteveK
Good news & bad news: Got it to start but definitely not a normal start.
Here's the good news. Bled the fuel system again. Hooked a hand held vacuum pump to the fuel line at the injector and held a vacuum on the line while cranking over it by hand. Took about 5 minutes but started getting a consistent spurt of fuel with each revolution of the flywheel. Hooked up the line and bled again, then listened for the injector to snap which I finally heard. Had to listen for it, wasn't a loud as I was expecting but it was consistent with each revolution.
Now the bad news. Will only start with the speed control set at least 2/3 of the way between the 'start' setting and max rpm. When it lit off I got a little nervous as the rpm seem to be climbing too high too fast so I reduced the speed control toward 'start' and it shut down. Got a lot of whiteish smoke during the whole process and one very loud unusual bang from the engine, sounded like a backfire. (my knowledge of diesel engines is limited to the parts I can associate with turbine & gasoline engines so I may not be using the correct terminology)
Tried this two more times, same result each time. The last time it tried it I let it run a bit longer and got the same results but with several loud bangs. Shut it down after the second one.
Max run time on the last attempt was about 5-7 seconds from the time it lit off and was accelerating.
Several other observations:
1) It continues to occasionally blow out a very black fluid from the exhaust. I attributed it to the accumulation of fuel from multiple failed start attempts. While cleaning it off I noticed it doesn't have distinct fuel odor, has somewhat of an oil smell to it
2) I had the engine oil level topped off to the full mark yesterday. Checked the oil level after doing the sniff test on the gunk coming out of the exhaust and it was down 1/4" from the full mark. Using straight 30 wt oil, the manual specifies HC-11 (summer) or HC-8 (winter) and I've had zero luck figuring what what that means in english. Figured straight 30 wt was a safe alternative at least in the short term.
Could I somehow be getting lubricating oil into the combustion chamber or am I over-thinking the problem again?
I'm going to try draining the fuel again and putting in honest to goodness diesel fuel. I went with this type of engine under the impression it would run on about anything but I'm running out of ideas. And the "backfiring" has me nervous, don't want to do serious damage to the engine while I'm in my (apparently very steep) learning curve.
The backfiring makes me think the timing might be retarded. If it was mine I would probably remove one shim from under the pump body, then try it to see if that helps. If so, either find true TDC and set the timing to factory specs or just remove one shim at a time until it runs acceptably.
pldc, it's worth a shot. I have the injector out and have been looking for someone who can check it for me but not having much luck. Unfortunately my 'stuff' has expanded to fill all the available space in the garage and I can't get to the engine to work on it. Spring cleaning is right around the corner, I'll have a go at it when the weather turns. I've gotten pretty adept at getting the pump out & back in.