I have been thinking again. ::) Since we seem to be at a dead end on importing diesels, how about LP and Nat. Gas engines. It might be time to forget about diesel CHP because diesel is getting expensive. And, how many of us want to make our own bio diesel? Propane is half the price of diesel and in other states it is cheaper yet. I think we need to get serious and plan what the next step will be.
I ran into this before a couple years back. I always liked this engine:
http://www.marathonengine.com/downloads/diesel_progress_08-04.pdf
Anyways, I feel we need to come up with an engine first before we proceed with the next step.
Henry
Here is some more info I found.
http://www.propane.net/uploadedFiles/Council/Research_and_Development/Ecopower%20Brochure_Update_042511_opt.pdf
The manufacture is also extracting heat from the engine oil.
I've been looking for an oil field engine myself - large flywheel(s), big, slow turning, single cylinder. Runs on natural gas or propane (some also run on gasoline). Something like a Fairbanks Morse 208. I found one on Craigslist, but SWMBO wouldn't go for it. I'm still working on that problem.
All of our natural gas now comes from domestic sources. Thanks to fracking and horizontal drilling, it's way cheap. In fact, I've heard that they are considering re-working the port in LA so we can export natural gas.
I also have a propane tank in the back yard, 500 gal size. We use it for heat in the winter and water heating. So I have a large quantity on hand most of the time, and it doesn't go bad. I'm also considering contacting the local utility and see what it costs to get a natural gas line run to my place, it wasn't available when we built but I think it may be now.
This is what I've been trying to work on all along! With current diesel prices, I see no advantage to a diesel engine if you're running pump fuel. It seems to be rather hard to find a good CHP sized natural gas engine though, they're either super expensive or don't have a governor. The only cheap ones I've seen (sub $1000) are usually old V8s.
My worry would be the gas lines breaking in an earthquake, especially in OR, so propane backup would be nice to have. I've always wanted to have a big greenhouse that makes use of the CO2 in the exhaust from a natural gas source.
I'm still looking for the right engine..... ::)
An engine with no governor can always have an electric governor retrofitted. I been looking into this since last month.
The Marathon engine was origionaly made by Briggs and Stratton. They sold off the division. This is to bad.
Yeah, I've tried in vain to get a "marathon" engine but they simply refuse to sell them for any price. ::) That would be an ideal CHP system but not quite worth $30k or whatever they want for the whole system. Never seen a used one pop up.
How do you spell "complicated"?
Casey
Hi LowGear,
It is not to complicated, and if a member needs help figuring something out he is at the right place to ask questions.
Here's a spreadsheet I made comparing the cost per BTU of different fuels, propane is currently winning by quite a bit. You can put your own local prices in it...
my listeroid is currently setup as backup only generator but using diesel as the pilot ignition and natural gas fogged into the intake i can run a 85/15% mixture of natural gas / diesel at 2000 watts which is the sweet spot for my needs when using it as a backup generator. It the load increases the amount of diesel is increased by the governor since the natural gas flows at a fixed rate. The amount of natural gas is regulated by a needle valve. While this is not the ideal setup it works well for me in a backup situation.
Carl.
i am leaning heavily toward Carl's approach,
having had to change my plan after the move, wherein originally i was to be offgrid
i am now in an ongrid situation.
good and bad i suppose
the good side is i have nat/gas to the house, so it would seem natural to use it in a dual fuel
application of the S195 changfa.
while i haven't tried it yet, i see no reason why it wouldn't work, it works well with propane in dual fuel mode.
have also been giving some thought to converting one of my direct injected 195's to spark ignition just to see how
it would work out, my thinking is longevity should be improved. the exhaust should be much cleaner in any event.
question for Carl
do you notice a reduction in the diesel knock in dual fuel mode?
bob g
Hi All
Short answer is yes!
But with either dedicated or spark converted engines.
No offense to Carl intended. Pilot fuel igniting is certainly one way to go.
MB I think you should look at the IDI versions instead. On My IDI R180 pull out the large body injector with it's pre-chamber and there is room to bracket clamp in a spark plug.
The higher line 17.5 to 30 hp Kohler and B&S coil packs have an electronic spark advance/retard capability built in and are designed to be flywheel magnet energized and triggered.
Different ways to govern it from the one fellows Generac conversion to Lloyds linear actuator system.
Why not me? PNW Rural. Diesel at $4.59 a US gallon IS still BTU cheaper than delivered propane. And the Canadian derived natural gas lines are a hard rinver mountanous 15 miles away.
IF I lived in a natural gas service area though it would be a no brainer as primary fuel with an LP tank as back up.
Regards
Steve Unruh
I agree with Henry's premise. There is a lot bigger range of applications for LP/Nat Gas CHP because of the cleaner exhaust, and potentially quieter engines. Having a storage stable fuel that is piped in or trucked in is also a big plus. Someday, fuel cells might do the job, or a non-rotary linear generator feeding a battery/inverter, but today's biggest CHP market would be LP/Nat Gas with rotary engine and AC generator.
I appreciate Propane a lot more at my off grid home as I become more disabled. Transporting and transferring diesel is a pain, literally.
I'd like to convert my Listeroid after I get past some current projects. Alas, for me, conventional spark is a no-go, so until Mark Cherry is successful in getting a market for his SmartPlugs, I'd be stuck with a diesel/propane mix as Carl uses (bravo Carl)...which is twice as many fuels and fuel systems as I'd like to have, as Steve suggests.
Yes there is reduction in diesel knock when i am running on a mix of natural gas and diesel but i would not call it extreme. The real benefit of using diesel as the pilot fuel is that if you turn off the natural gas the engine will run completely on diesel with no changes. The only thing i noticed is that when i run on diesel only i need to make a slight adjustment (1/2 turn more) to the governor to keep the freq at 62hz no load. Since my gen head has a freq meter in it setting the governor is quite simple.
This thread is interesting because I've been thinking about how to use the power unit I'm building. Since its air cooled, I was considering using a Geo Metro radiator to capture some of the waste heat from the engine. I intend to enclose the engine for noise control anyway, so ducting the air through the radiator is simple. If the engines fan in the recoil start/flywheel doesn't provide enough air for adequate cooling, I was going to use a lovejoy coupler on the end of the shaft and drive a home built blower rotor. Size it for adequate air flow, but not so much that it uses excessive fuel to drive it.
The point of this is that the engine I'm using is a 6hp cheap Honda clone for less than $200. I STILL don't have the listeroid running, and I'm afraid of all the problems it will have when get it running. Its a 12-2, so broken cam shafts, bad idler... Instead of getting the listeroid going first, I've decided to go the way Google did with their computer servers: plan that they'll fail, get backups in place, and buy commodity parts. They don't get server grade computers at higher cost, they just have a maintenance/backup system that lets servers fail without effecting the system as a whole. My commodities engine is a Honda clone.
My power unit should cost about $1000 for 1.6kw of pure sine wave power. Someone mentioned $30k for the marathon unit, which will have 2.5-5kw of power. I can buy a lot of clone engines, or even real Honda engines for the difference. Even going to a water cooled ATV/motorcycle/lawnmower engine will be less expensive, and make heat recovery easier. I have to check out the xls file on fuels to see how gas compares to propane for the off grid farm. If I install the system at home, with natural gas, and sell back to the electric company, I wonder if they'll notice that the 100w solar panel is putting out 1000w of power, even at night?
What makes the Marathon engine so special? I've heard of Honda engines running for 10,000+ hours. If you doubled the size you need, and run it half speed, could you get similar life out of the Honda? Running it on propane or natural gas will help last a long time, and increase the maintenance interval. I'm just wondering if there's any breakthroughs in technology, or is it just how the set them up?
One question I have about using diesel engines is: why? Yes they get better fuel efficiency, but we're talking about CHP, aren't we? We WANT waste heat. Diesel was always cheaper than gas, until I bought my VW Jetta TDI. Now its priced like premium around here. It makes it hard to justify the extra $6k purchase price. It used to be that diesels needed a lot less maintenance, as long as you used good fuel. Now, with electronic ignition and fuel injection, you don't even tune up a car for 100,000 miles. Don't get me started on the 2006 TDI engines need for a new camshaft after 150,000-250,000 miles. Diesels last longer, but do the numbers add up? $200 for a gas engine or $550 for the diesel engine for my power unit. Add the fact that I can run propane/cheap NG in the gas engine, and the answer isn't as clear as it once was.
I've become less of a fan for really cool engines that do exactly what you want, but are uncommon/unavailable. I'll settle for a common as dirt engine that does most of what you want with a few modifications. I'm looking at the 3cly geo metro engines fairly closely. I wonder how slow it can run with 300#s of flywheel attached?
Michael
Quote from: artificer on May 20, 2012, 11:44:09 AM
What makes the Marathon engine so special? I've heard of Honda engines running for 10,000+ hours. If you doubled the size you need, and run it half speed, could you get similar life out of the Honda? Running it on propane or natural gas will help last a long time, and increase the maintenance interval. I'm just wondering if there's any breakthroughs in technology, or is it just how the set them up?
I think their main advantage is water cooling. Not only does that make it easier to use the waste heat but I think the engine will last longer in the long run with better thermal stability. Also has a pressure lube and filter system. Other than that I think it's mostly a Briggs and Stratton on steroids.
I like the idea of using "commodity engines" as you say, just pop the engine out and replace it with another $200 unit every few years. Too bad there aren't any water cooled engines like this. Briggs makes a 6.5hp OHV lawnmower engine with pressure lube and filter that can be had on ebay quite cheaply. I suspect it's very similar inside to the Marathon engine. I've long been thinking of trying to water cool an engine like that.....
Quote from: BioHazard on May 20, 2012, 04:55:32 PM
SNIP
I like the idea of using "commodity engines" as you say, just pop the engine out and replace it with another $200 unit every few years. Too bad there aren't any water cooled engines like this.
SNIP
Take a look at this scooter engine 110cc water cooled motorcycle engine kick start (http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/332384777-110cc-water-cooled-motorcycle-engine-kick-start-wholesalers.html). Perhaps a group buy?
I've seen chinese water cooled bike/ATV engines on ebay before, can't seem to find one right now. They're usually designed for high speed use though. Kind of hard to take one seriously as a "work" engine.
We've talked about this before, but this would be an ideal setup:
http://www.arrowengine.com/Products/Single_Cylinder/K_Series.php
Obviously arrow is importing indian engines and adding spark ignition. You can still order an "air compressor" listeroid, probably easier to convert to spark than diesel. I wonder what Arrow is using for a governor?
It always just boils down to cash, how much do you wanna spend?
Hi Fellas. Cant see the motorcycle engine being much cop for stationary work. Cylinder head is still air cooled design - where much of the heat is generated. Cheers, Derb.
Quote from: BioHazard on May 20, 2012, 09:47:41 PM
I've seen chinese water cooled bike/ATV engines on ebay before, can't seem to find one right now. They're usually designed for high speed use though. Kind of hard to take one seriously as a "work" engine.
SNIP
I brought it up because you've referenced cheap 2-stroke generators before, so I figured this couldn't be any worse. :)
You guys are missing an opportunity.
4 cycle marine outboards are water cooled electric start, with a linear throttle, the come in hp ranges from 5 hp all the way to 300 hp, they have good low end torque. The power head would be an easy adaption to mount.
(http://blog.boattrader.com/files/lehr-propane-outboard.jpg)
Check this company's new product out... www.goleher.com (http://www.golehr.com) its a propane powered 2.5 hp and a 5 hp outboard engine. Guess what it uses the Mercury Outboard, with propane conversion. Yamaha Outboard is a re-baged Mecrury.
Lloyd
Hi Lloyd,
I was looking at those about 2 months ago. If they use a Mercury power head than it is manufactured by Tohatsu. They make very good engines.
Henry
How come such smart ideas are so obvious once you see them. Fire up the Barbee and the boat with the same fuel bottle.
This same idea might get gasoline powered golf cars back on some courses where they're banned.
Unfortunately propane is $5 a gallon here in Paradise.
Casey
Henry, you're probably right, with the Global Economy, some much consolidation, it's by acquisition, or it's by contract manufacturing, re-badging.
I posted awhile back about this little 3KW Westerbeke gas gen set, with the remark that it would be an easy conversion to LP/nat gas. Funny thing is they took an outboard motor powerhead adapted it to a frame and belt driven AC genny, and are running it at 2200 rpm. http://www.westerbeke.com/Products/ProductDetailLanding.aspx?ID=1284 (http://www.westerbeke.com/Products/ProductDetailLanding.aspx?ID=1284)
(http://www.westerbeke.com/ProductImages/3.0%20BCG%20F-W.jpg)
LowGear, There is not much new under the sun, just a different way of using an existing technology, and off the shelf parts.
Lloyd
I remember that unit. Sure is a pretty thing.
Henry
Ouch!!! Check the price out.
http://www.norwall.com/categories/Marine-Generators/Gasoline/
Here's some more info on the Marathon engine, wish they had more details.
http://www.marathonengine.com/about_the_marathon_engine.html
If you click on the picture of the engine the animation looks very very similar to the inside of the Briggs Intek engines. It just so happens the Intek was designed/introduced right after they sold the "Marathon" division.
It is of course, cast iron water cooled as opposed to aluminum air cooled. Damn I wish I could buy one of them things! ::) It really makes me wonder what kind of engine life you could get out of a standard cheap intek, if run continuously at low speeds on nat. gas.
i wonder how hard it might be to mock up a pattern for a crankcase, to accept Briggs and Stratton, honda or other internal parts, and make it
a wet sleeve water cooled engine?
using existing internal parts, such as crank, rod piston, valve train, and overhead valve head, along with all the other stuff, might make it doable.
maybe the crankcase could be aluminum alloy with a replaceable iron wet sleeve.
maybe start with an aircooled crankcase, cut the cylinder off the top, fab up a wet cylinder and glue it one with epoxy, feather it in with bondo
and send it to china or india for casting and basic machining? that way all the bottom end spacing would be established, things like main brg bore, cam centerlines etc would be taken care of.
a good pattern would allow for an interesting option in my opinion.
bob g
alternatively, maybe there is a single cylinder aircooled engine that could have its fins machined off, and a water cooled jacket made
and fitted to it?
we need an engine that is water cooled, widely available, and affordable
maybe we can only have any 2 but not all 3?
bob g
I had been thinking of two of the ideas that have been brought up: outboard and cutting the fins off of one of the cheap honda clones. I don't know anything about outboards, so I don't know how long they would last. I was thinking that light, high speed, high power/weight ratios wouldn't make a decent long running engine. Do they have cast iron bores/inserts? If they do, then its a matter of getting a larger one and running it slower with a flywheel.
For the Honda clone, I was looking up the GX200 parts diagrams. The cylinder/crankase isn't that simple of a part to cast. I was thinking that machining off the fins and having a bolt-on/clamp-on water jacket would make the most sense. I like the idea that anyone with a bit of mechanical ability could use a sawzal and grinder to convert a commonly available engine.
For the water cooled motorcycle engine... the same procedure could be used for the head. You could then have a totally liquid cooled engine. Then again, maybe its the selection of engine. I'm pretty sure that goldwing engines are totally water cooled. Others probably are as well. Downside is cost, of course.
Michael
GX200 cylinder casting
(http://www.ereplacementparts.com/images/honda/GX200_%28Type_SM22%29%28VIN_GCAE-1000001-1899999%29_WW_7.gif)
On another board I visit there is a guy who cast a custom water cooled block for the Briggs flathead engines for go kart racing. He said he spent over $10,000 in the process. He only ended up making one before deciding it wasn't worth the trouble. He said it would be a lot easier to try and weld on a water jacket.
Try to get one outbord 4 stroke engine ,there are more around and they are geting old .
One from a sailboat is ok only used to get in and out of the harbor .
Sometime,s its better to get the boat and trailer and motor ,sell the trailer repair the boat ore scrap it .
there is a chance the engine is for nothing then .
The rpm range ok
Just some late night math, your prices will vary...
Gas: $1.097/therm
Electricity: $0.11/kilowatt hour
Using fuel consumption from Arrow engines:
1 therm = 12.82hp/hour
Average generator output:
12.82hp = 6.41 Kilowatts per therm (2HP per KW)
2500 watt Cogenerator, 70% heat recovery:
39,000 BTU/hour
2.56 hours/therm
Output = 6.4KW electricity/70,000 BTU per therm
Output = $0.705 electricity/ $0.768 heat per therm
Total = $1.473 per therm (Hey, that's more than I pay!)
Does that look right? ;D
my local rate including all the add on b/s, comes to around $4.75 per mcf, which is just over 1million btu's (natural gas)
when you consider diesel fuel at around 4 bucks a gallon, (somewhat less for offroad) and it having about an 1/8 the btu content
one begins to take a hard look at nat gas
even though a nat gas engine is less efficient than a diesel, (not accounting for cogen heat recovery) the scales still seem to favor
giving nat gas a very very hard look indeed.
when we consider the clean burn (epa likes that, along with neighbors if you have them close) availability if it is already piped in to your house,
reports of having lots of it to burn for a very long time, and its infinite shelf life, well hmmmm
at the price i can get nat gas, i am convinced i can produce electrical power very close to the cost of per kwatt hour from the electric company.
only one way to find out i suppose, that being doing it.
bob g
I wonder if a manufacture in China would be willing to convert an R175 to run on LP or NG by making a differant head to bolt on.
An ignition pack would not be that hard to put on that engine.
Come up with the desired static compression ratio and go from there.
It would beat designing a complete engine.
Henry
Quote from: hwew on May 24, 2012, 08:46:54 PM
I wonder if a manufacture in China would be willing to convert an R175 to run on LP or NG by making a differant head to bolt on.
An ignition pack would not be that hard to put on that engine.
Come up with the desired static compression ratio and go from there.
It would beat designing a complete engine.
Henry
I wonder what the EPA would think of that. That little harbor freight 2 stroke generator is even CARB approved, if we remove the dirty word diesel I wonder what they will let us have?
year ago, cummin rio grande produced nat gas engine's used in irrigation
they used the same heads as their diesel counterparts, the only real difference
was they made a spark plug/adapter to replace the injector, and made a dished piston to lower
the compression a bit, (even though the ntc400 came in at 11.6:1)
i think an adapter could be made easily enough to fit a spark plug into the r175 enabling the use of the diesel head
what would then be needed would be a lower compression piston which shouldn't be a problem for the oem to produce.
it would not be terribly difficult to make an adapter to replace the injector pump to allow linkage externally to the internal governor, and
provision for a point set cam or plunger to provide for spark ignition, coils are cheap and widely available, just pick a cheap and readily available
point and condenser set such as a small block chevy or ford part?
the oem piston head might be thick enough to cut down enough to get down to around 13:1 comp ratio, which means we don't need the oem to
do anything by provide a stripped down engine, san's injector, injection pump, fuel filter, lines etc.
maybe its time to make a call to the epa? maybe we don't need to call them?
parts are still legal to import, maybe we import long block 175's? surely some oem can provide a stripped engine as a part?
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on May 24, 2012, 10:00:29 PM
parts are still legal to import, maybe we import long block 175's? surely some oem can provide a stripped engine as a part?
That's the hard part, I've already tried looking for long block chinese diesels to import, but haven't been able to find any unlike the listeroids. Changfa I guess has better things to do. Maybe one of the smaller MFGs if we could put together a large enough order.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/__236__55__Gas_Glow_Engines_parts-Gas_Engine_Parts.html
nice and tiny spark makers.
Would something like this engine work:
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=FD731V-BS07&desc=Kawasaki%20%20%2026HP%20Vertical%201-1/8%22x4-5/16%22%20Shaft,%20Oil%20Filter,%20Electric%20Start,%20Fuel%20Pump,%20Water%20Cooled
Kawasaki 26HP @ 3600 RPM; 2 cylinder, vertical shaft, water cooled, cast iron cylinder sleeves, oil filter.
Low idle is 1550 RPM.
Cost is $999, shipping isn't too terrible.
Can ST generators be run with the shaft vertical? I seem to think I saw somewhere that they could.
This might me a candidate for running direct drive at 1800 RPM or belt drive at something higher, like 2200 - 2600 RPM. I wouldn't recommend running at 3600 RPM. I looked for specs (HP/Torque curve) but didn't find any.
Could this be fitted with an IMPCO carburetor to run on natural gas or propane?
Something like that would make a good cogen system, probably slightly less efficient 2 cylinder vs 1 cylinder. I would like to see a power curve for that engine. Surely it could be converted to natural gas/propane.
Here's another horizontal option:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/31hp-Kohler-Engine-ES-Aegis-Liquid-Cooled-EFI-Tomcar-/200766537042?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebe9e3d52
I wonder if the EFI engine would be harder to convert to nat. gas?
Couldn't sleep last night, so I was thinking about the conversion of a diesel engine to NG or LP. What does it take? You need spark, fuel, and compression. Compression is fine, whatever it is. LP will not autodetonate even at diesel compression ratios, so that makes it easy. Is NG the same? Spark is not terribly difficult if you re-use the injector hole. The listeroids could have the sparkplug in the compression changeover plug. Use a small engine coil or one of the after-market electronic ignition units. That only leaves controlling the fuel. You can get an IMPCO propane carb/throttle body for under $200. Make a linkage to the governor, or get/make one of the electronic ones.
I have no clue if the engine will run at all well, but I don't see why not. The thing I'm trying to decide is if it makes more sense to get a small honda civic engine, add a large flywheel, and run it slow at 900rpm.
What causes an engine to wear out? The number of engine strokes? Un-oiled starting? Run the engine slow and adding a pre-run oil pump should make it last longer. The question is: just how long? I've heard of a Honda engine running for 13k hours when it wasn't started all that often. How long would a cheap used Honda Civic engine last? I see them on ebay or Craigslist for under $500.
Just musing on the many possibilities.
Michael
seems like Kawasaki makes a variety of gas powered water cooled v-twins
Kawasaki FD501 16hp brand new (http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/grd/3038436122.html)
Hi Michael. No need to run a "pre-run" oil pump - there is a product out there called a "bearing saver". It is basically a cylinder which resembles a grease gun. This is fitted up to the oil gallery usually via a tee off the oil pressure switch. Has a spring in it which rests on a piston with neoprene type seals. When you run the engine, the oil pressure of the engine fills the cylinder and compresses the spring. When the engine is turned off a solenoid shuts off flow which leaves the cylinder full of oil under pressure. When you turn on the ignition, the solenoid opens and the oil in the cylinder (under pressure of the spring) pressurises the oil galleries. You can time it down or hook up a start relay off the oil pressure lamp switch. Cheers, Derb.
Quote from: deeiche on May 26, 2012, 11:56:21 AM
seems like Kawasaki makes a variety of gas powered water cooled v-twins
Kawasaki FD501 16hp brand new (http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/grd/3038436122.html)
That is a good price. One important thing, I would have a couple spare starters. They are not heavy duty. A matter of fact, Kawasaki, Kohler, Briggs starters are not built for continuous start-ups. But all three make good commercial engines.
Henry
Quote from: artificer on May 26, 2012, 09:01:31 AM
Couldn't sleep last night, so I was thinking about the conversion of a diesel engine to NG or LP. What does it take? You need spark, fuel, and compression. Compression is fine, whatever it is. LP will not autodetonate even at diesel compression ratios, so that makes it easy. Is NG the same? Spark is not terribly difficult if you re-use the injector hole. The listeroids could have the sparkplug in the compression changeover plug. Use a small engine coil or one of the after-market electronic ignition units. That only leaves controlling the fuel. You can get an IMPCO propane carb/throttle body for under $200. Make a linkage to the governor, or get/make one of the electronic ones.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who stays up at night thinking about this stuff! ;D Obviously it's doable, Arrow has done it with the Petter clone they sell. My concern would be the cam and how efficient it would run on gas. Might run like crap without a new one. Also might be kind of hard to set the ignition timing. I don't know what the max CR is for natural gas, but I know all the spark converted diesels I have seen have lower compression than a diesel. With the availablity of those Kawasaki engines I don't know that it would be worth the cost to convert a listeroid.
Quote from: artificer on May 26, 2012, 09:01:31 AM
I have no clue if the engine will run at all well, but I don't see why not. The thing I'm trying to decide is if it makes more sense to get a small honda civic engine, add a large flywheel, and run it slow at 900rpm.
What causes an engine to wear out? The number of engine strokes? Un-oiled starting? Run the engine slow and adding a pre-run oil pump should make it last longer. The question is: just how long? I've heard of a Honda engine running for 13k hours when it wasn't started all that often. How long would a cheap used Honda Civic engine last? I see them on ebay or Craigslist for under $500.
This is the kind of thing I have been thinking about for a while now, but I have started to notice all the commercial cogen systems use a smaller engine. It kind of bothers me that a Kawasaki 2 cylinder is $1000 and a 4 cylinder is about $500, but how much is it going to cost to convert the engine? If you put 300,000 miles on your Civic running at 25mph, that would be 12,000 hours. I would think the engine would last quite a bit longer in stationary use with good maintainence.
Personally I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and go with a Kawasaki or Kohler water cooled V twin. I wonder if the Kohler parts are easier to find?
Quote from: hwew on May 26, 2012, 07:21:58 PM
One important thing, I would have a couple spare starters. They are not heavy duty.
Personally, I'd like to come up with a backup pull/crank starter system, if being used for a generator. I figure if I can pull start my 6 cylinder boat engine I can probably pull start a V twin. :)
i am not sure i would invest the time to convert a listeroid to nat/gas, however it probably would run quite well for a very long time
due to lower stresses, or so it would seem.
the kawasaki looks interesting, as does the kohler
however i am not crazy about aluminum blocks and the other corners that are cut to save weight
which is necessary for their intended use.
if however that is all that is available to work with, i guess you dance with the girl available when the song starts?
looking back at the changfa something came to mind the other night, (yes i too stay up nights thinking about this crap)
the s195 comes in both di and idi configurations
the di comes with a dished piston, and sans prechamber
the idi comes with a flat top piston and a prechamber... so
we spec an engine kit to come with a di piston, and an idi cylinder head
the coupling of the two should lower the compression from around 20:1 down to something like 12:1 or so.
the selling point to the epa is such an engine kit could not be readily fitted with an injector and injection pump
and be made to start with anything less than a nose full of ether, if at all. the compression ratio would be too low.
perhaps if this solution was presented to the epa, with the explanation that the kit is for research, to be fitted for nat/gas or propane
and cannot be made to run as a diesel engine by simply bolting on the missing parts?
i think a good case could be made
changfa will not even talk to anyone about any engines without a letter from the EPA, so if this was packaged and presented properly
it might be the EPA would allow for the import of such a "part" and provide us with a letter ok'ing the import.
i am unaware of any of the smaller engine's such as the 175 coming with either di or idi configurations, i think the 195 is the smallest that
comes either way.
having that option simplifies the project because a special piston would be unneeded.
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on May 26, 2012, 09:57:20 PM
the kawasaki looks interesting, as does the kohler
however i am not crazy about aluminum blocks and the other corners that are cut to save weight
which is necessary for their intended use.
I agree, the aluminum block makes me a little leery, but then again these days even cars come with aluminum blocks w/iron sleeves. I think the Honda micro CHP system uses an aluminum block, but I'm not sure.
Even at $1000 I still see the engine as semi-disposeable. Stuff like generator heads, inverters, etc, should outlast several engines. My first job would be to increase the size of the oil sump/filter.
Yep, the Honda CHP system uses an aluminum block engine.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/CoGeneration/HondaCHPbbezilla.pdf
Interesting that I see it's got a 163cc engine. What are the odds it's a GXV160 with a water jacket?
http://engines.honda.com/models/model-detail/gxv160
makes sense that they would simply make a water jacket block for the gx160 aircooled engine components
the gx160 is one tough little engine in aircooled
i can't imagine it would be any less so as a watercooled unit.
bob g
Yes they are tough engines. I have two comercial mowers with the GXV160 engines and they took a lot of abuse. They still run great.
Henry
I just did some research on the Briggs Vangaurd V-Twin I have. It is made in Japan by Daihatsu, a member of the Toyota Group. The engines crank is supported by a ball bearing on the load side. and replaceable bushing on the flywheel side. Side loading would not be a problem with this engine, the Kawasaki and Kohler engines crank has bushings machined onto the crankcase on both ends. to bad the Vangaurd V-twin engines are air cooled only. From looking at all the parts manuals I feel the briggs Vangaurd engine would have the edge on air cooled engines.
Henry
I was thinking. Now how can heat be harnessed by the Vangaurd Propane V-twin. Heat extracted from exhaust and oil is easy. Can the cooling air be collected effectivly by a heat exchanger? Or how about this idea. I am total electric, and I run heat pump in the winter. How about pumping all the heated cooling air from the engine in the outside condenser unit on cold months. Won't this make the heat pump much more effecent? Won't this work on the Honda GX160 as well?
Henry
In Canada (in the oilfields) the Cummins 6 cylinder NG/diesels are all over the place.
As Bob mentioned, the injector port is modified to accept a spark plug, and an ignition kit is added.
These things burn very clean, have extended oil change intervals, and seem to run for ever.
There is one site I am aware of where the engine has been running pretty much 24/7 for 5 years (apart from regular maintenance shutdowns). IIRC, the compression ratio is altered considerably for NG use.
With the lower compression ratio and the absence of the diesel knock, the rods and bottom end have a greatly reduced operating load.
veggie
Finding a liquid cooled single cylinder engine in the US pretty much a dead end.
Liquid cooled engines currently available in the US are:
Kawasaki V-Twins and Kohler V-Twins.
I just found this. Are Briggs liquid cooled V-twin still available? Possibly.
http://www.briggsandstratton.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/B%20and%20S%20Liquid%20Cooled%20Specifications/~/media/C8984755FCB54B3EBDD5C4915223F27E.ashx
http://www4.briggsandstratton.com/miscpdfs/RNT/vanguard_2lc.pdf
They look like they are very good engines.
Henry
Anyone consider used JDM Kei engines?
If you don't know, Japan has a class of cars called Kei. Their displacement is set by law, right now at 660cc. They are water cooled 4-stroke engines, most taken off streets at 10 years because of strict safety and emissions tests that escalate in price as vehicles get older.
The JDM pipeline into the US is pretty well established.
got a link to these engine sales?
bob g
I knew I'd seen a water cooled Vanguard somewhere! I think they've already discontinued it though, it's not on their "commercial power" website.
Here's one on ebay, a tad spendy:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/35hp-Briggs-Stratton-Engine-ES-Vanguard-Liquid-Cooled-1-1-4-x4-1-2-613177-0115-/360461161664?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ed28d4c0
They are not cheap. I think you are right about them being discontinued. I wonder why.
Quote from: mobile_bob on May 28, 2012, 12:46:49 PM
got a link to these engine sales?
bob g
Daihatsu EF-series (660 cc) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daihatsu_E-series_engine#EF-series_.28660_cc.29) info.
Japanese company listing used Daihatsu EF, DAIHATHU EF Used Petrol Engine (http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/124271786/DAIHATHU_EF_Used_Petrol_Engine.html)
Generic JDM sales are advertised across the county, someone would have to contact several to see if they would bring in Kei car engines. I venture to guess they already do because there is a fair number of JDM Kei trucks brought into the US for off road use.
That Daihatsu engine is probably a very nicely built engine but, looking at the torque and hp specs I would think the Kohler, Briggs or Kawasaki liquid cooled V-twin engines would be better suited for our purpose. The EF-CK engine has roughly 30 hp @ 4900 rpm and a peak torque curve of 37 ftlbs. @ 3200 rpm.
The Briggs Vangaurd 2/LC engine has a recommended maximum 27 BHP @ 3600 and 13 BHP @ 2000 rpm and has a peak torque of 40 ftlbs at 2000 rpm. I think this is where we should be.
I feel the Daihatsu engine would not be very efficent at low rpm's.
The EF-VD model would be tempting to get for an ATV project. :o
Henry
Probably splitting hairs here, but a 2 cylinder is probably slightly more efficient than a 3 cylinder, while at the same time slightly less stable and balanced.
The 90 deg. V-twins are much smoother than the 2 cylinder odd firing inlines. The Kawasaki and Vangaurd V-twins I have are pretty smooth at all speeds.
Henry
Another thought for a chp system is to use a water cooled generator. If a typical generator is at best 85% efficient, there's a potential 15% return of waste heat there.
typical generator "head" might be 85%, but the prime mover is rarely over about 33% in sizes we are apt to use
so 85% of 33% equals about 28% overall efficiency, leaving about 72% as differing forms of waste heat to recover.
of that we might 75% on a good day, recovering waste coolant heat, waste exhaust heat, and maybe heat from the oil cooler.
so maybe 72% as waste heat times 75% equals about 54% of the fuel burned recovered as waste heat.
28% plus the 54% recovered heat equals about 82% overall efficiency, in other words if we use the heat we can put to use about 82%
of the available btu's in the fuel. not bad but we can do a bit better i think.
eeking out a bit here and there really add up in overall efficiency of a cogen unit, using a higher efficiency genhead will return us probably
another 5% point bump in overall efficiency. using the most efficient heat exchangers (which is easier with nat/gas or propane in my opinion)
running at higher delta T, i think it is within the realm of possibility to reach 90% overall efficiency.
put all the equipment inside an insulated enclosure, and use it as a heat pump heat source, going over 90% becomes very attainable in my opinion.
trick is, finding a use for the recovered heat, without which efficiency is no better than a standard genset.
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on May 29, 2012, 11:40:42 AM
trick is, finding a use for the recovered heat, without which efficiency is no better than a standard genset.
You got it. If I could use the heat all year long I'd have had a cogenerator set up years ago. Unfortunately we don't need a lot of heat here. We really need to come up with a small absorbtion chiller of some sort that can use the waste heat!
Somewhere I think I read the Honda CHP system is supposed to be 91% overall efficiency...
Our chp is a nice combination with our off-grid solar system. In the winter when the sun does not shine the Listeroid is running, we need the heat too. Also the radiant floor in the concrete slab is good at using low grade intermittent heat.
Looks like somebody is one step ahead of us with the Kawasaki and Dihatsu engines!
http://polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/2-3,5kwGas.htm
http://polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/4-14kw_daihatsu.htm
http://polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/cogenset.htm
QuoteTypically most applications will use a generator to produce electrical power to run an electric compressor as part of a typical air conditioner / heat pump, this is not efficient. Fuel is wasted in converting mechanical power into electrical power (generator) and back again into mechanical power (motor) as required to drive the refrigeration compressor.
The Micro-cogenerator's efficiency and cost savings is based on reducing fuel consumption by using the engine to direct drive both the alternator (generator) and the air-conditioning compressor at the same time. The air-conditioning compressor uses an electric clutch to disenguage it from the engine when cooling/heating is not required. Fuel consumption is reduced by more than 50% over typical applications by eliminating the unnecessary conversion processes.
I have some 48 volt PMG alternators that will mount on any of the V-twins. If I only can find a good 48 volt 5000 watt or more pure sine wave inverter setup. ::) Cheap.
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=2679.0
http://polarpowerinc.com/products/alternator/3500&6250alternator.htm
They talk about 12 pole pmg alternators. I checked the spare rotors I have and as far as I can tell the Eagle Pitchers are 12 pole.
It looks like alternators I have are set up for three phase. But looking at with wiring on the Eagle Pitcher's, I think they might be able to be setup for other configurations.
What i need to do is fire up the LRG-425 and check voltage and hertz.
Henry
I fired up the LRG-425 and have some numbers.
Volt meter hooked to Phase 1 and 2 with no rectifier and no load:
About 52 Volts @ 2170 rpm.
Henry
Hi All
Well 7 days without Internet service due to a Mt Saint Helens created lightning storm cell event. We get these local "events" here every 2-3 years.
Small Engines:
NOTHING beats a properly balanced V-Twin for smooth running and quietness in the single and two cylinder ranges. DOES need one of the larger industrial dual end entry mufflers though to opposing cancel out the exhaust events. Two cylinder opposed are large motion smoother but over all busy noisier with all of the combustion and energy transfer events wing flapping large area unsupported out in the air space.
And yes I have many different single cylinders in my life. And now even some big single Listeroid experience. You pay a price for that single cylinder lowest piston/ring/bearing drag in shake rattle roll and hopping.
Inline's - I have two different Yammar diesels in my life. Shaky low speed running - just OK at RPM under a load. And neither will run at all if one cylinder drops out. Even have some hours of loaded experience with Suzuki/Chevy Sprint, Metro, Kubota DG972 three cylinders. Gasoline and gaseous fuels make them quieter yes - but again not all that smooth compared to the V-twins under a load.
Four cylinder inline is the most reasonable least cylinder type in an inline. Six cylinder inline Much, Much better yet.
So . . . Idealism versus a use it today usable practicality as I see it.
Give me a good V-twin anytime for this kind of system.
All my own opinions.
Steve Unruh
Once you are around a good 90 Deg. V-twin to experiance how they run you will understand why Steve and I like them. The 25 Hp Kawasaki I have on my Z-turn has been fantastic. Lots of low end torque and very smooth through the whole operating range. The Kawasaki engine has been through so much the past six years. It mostly runs in HOT and SANDY enviroment. All I ever done to it was replace starter bushings twice, adjust the valves once out of five valve lash maintenance checks. Oil and filter changes every 50 hours. And spark plugs changed twice. If these engines run in a clean enviroment with LP or NAT gas I feel these engines will last many hours.
I guess it would be good to think about using V-twins for Cogen projects.
Henry
Quote from: hwew on May 31, 2012, 03:52:47 PM
Oil and filter changes every 50 hours. And spark plugs changed twice.
Thats something we'll have to work on...the Marathon engine claims 4,000 hours between oil/spark plug changes and I think the Honda CHP claims 6,000. How many hours do you think you put on the plugs? I'm thinking I'd hookup some kind of external oil tank with a couple gallons of lube in it.
Kawasaki recommends 100 hr oil changes. We have very fine sand where I live. The engine was equiped with a good fleetgaurd daul filter system and oil cooler. This engine is used in what I call extreem operating conditions. Sand, heat, rain, extreem bumps, Full operating speed at 3600 rpm and having RPM's drop down to 2500 at times when I am mowing tall grass up a grade at just under 13 MPH. Bogging down any engine is abuse in my book and yes I am guilty doing it.
Plugs are changed every thousand hours.
I feel this engine has served me well. It has 2628.2 hours. and still does not use any oil.
It is very easy to install an additional oil tank to any pressure lubed Kawasaki, Kohler or Briggs Vangaurd V-twin. They are all good engines and they run for a long time.
A couple things I like about Kohler is there customer service and dealer network are very good. My opinion is it's the best out of the big three in my area. Another thing is their industrial V-twins need no valve adjustment. They have true automotive hydralic lifters.
If you noticed I have not mentioned Honda V-twins. Well the dealer network is not as broad as the three I listed. Parts are way over priced. The engines did not have the performance as Kawasaki, Briggs and Kohler. When I tested mowers out before purchasing. Honda Engines Bogged down much easier when I tested z-turns out. Check and see how many comercial Z-turn mower manufactures use Honda. I can tell you very few. I know Honda had problems and pulled out of the comercial Z-turn mower market and sold there mower designes to Auburn Consolidated Industries because Honda found out most profesional lawn care companies do not want Honda engines on Z-turn mowers.
As you look deeper you will notice Honda do not offer Fleetgaurd or Donaldson Daul stage filters, which in my book are the two top comercial filters for extreem lawn care mowing use.
I do know Briggs Vangaurd, Kohler and Kawasaki are proven engines in the professional lawn care industry and you can't go wrong with these three. Just choose the brands that has a good network in your area and than pick the brand you feel comfortable with.
Henry
I sell new equipment that comes standard with Briggs Vanguard engines as the standard engine, Kohler and Honda are the option engines I can order. I only stock units with Kohler Command 18-27 hp horizontal engines in my business. If somebody insists on a Honda or a Briggs I will order it for them. Honda V-twins IMHO are under powered for what they claim, expensive to fix and are hard to reliably get parts for. Have seen lots of valvetrain/cam gear failures with them also among other things. Only thing I have an issue with on the Kohler is a fuel pump failure once in awhile. My 2nd choice is the Briggs.... NO complaints whatsoever on those except keep a spare starter solenoid around cause the stock one sucks but a big screwdriver across the solenoid posts will get you running in a pinch :)..The application that these engines are used in are industrial hot water pressure washers.... WOT from the turn of the key until they are shut down. Just my 2 cents on the aircooled v-twin stuff I work with on a daily basis. ;)
It's good to know they can stand up to an abusive environment and high continuous RPMs. I would think cutting the RPMs in half, should extend the oil/plug change by double, no? I guess some kind of expensive platinum plugs or something would last a while. Of course running on NG would again extend engine life and oil changes. I would probably send a few oil samples to a lab to determine what the best change interval would be.
Honestly, I'm kinda interested in running the engine just to see how many hours it can last with the right care. ;D I don't think I've ever actually "worn out" an engine...they usually die from something else.
OR the vehicle/equipment they are on wears out:)
I have a sears riding lawnmower with a Koler Command Pro 27HP engine. Been abusing that machine for nearly a decade now. Doing things like busting/mowing 3' tall salal(back and ram:)) before I got my tractor and brushhog, as well as mowing most of my property grass without a single engine issue. I change the oil regularly, and do my best to keep the crap blown clear of the air cooling passages and oil cooler. I think I am only on my second set of plugs. The configuration is a little bit easy for mice to get into, and have had to remove nests from the blower assembly a few times, and mice parts from the rest of the engine the times I have started it without looking for a nest first:) But it still starts easilly, runs smooth and strong and dosn't consume any real oil(never has). Seem to recall a experimental aircraft builder used a horizontal shaft version for an aircraft engine. Would love to see a liquid cooled version of this engine as it would be easier to clean a radiator or debris screen than all the coweled cooling passages on the engine... In fact that is my only gripe with this engine, the cowels are difficult to remove to clean the cooling passages, which is not good for a mower engine. The rest of the mower is falling apart and I will need to replace it soon(few years, keep welding it back together when the hardware/structure fails:)) I will go zero turn next go around. One of the popular options on the brand I am looking at is the 26HP water cooled Kawisaki, but other manufacturers still offer the Koler, and I am keeping my eyes on those models also. But I really want a 60" or larger deck so will most likley need to go larger in engine...
Hi Romar I echo the equipment wearing out around a good model, good brand well maintained engine!
Brands and models.
Honda is not as good as they think in these larger sizes. My complaint is too much damn breakable plastic on many of thier air boxes and air cleaner covers. Hurumn. ONLY small engine I've ever worn out was a Honda tiller that I did not notice the air cleaner cover broke off from a minor wooden post bump on a dry, dusty August between row weed tilling day. So Mr. Bio. One hour eating dust killed it. Would kill any engine. I've now had to tape on broken finger snap on cover on the wife Honda push mower for the same problem from a shrub rub.
Kohlers are good and have been excellant . . . unless they are one of the newer SINGLE CYLINDER COURAGE engines. Junk. Junk. Junk 300-500 hour lower crankcase failure specials. Look at the break down and see three different revisions in 7 years on a crankshaft mounted active rotating/oscillating counter weight assembly. These also use a roll pin through a straight shaft, lifter finger on their dual cam system instead of a well proven machined hardened lobe with a wear rotating round lifter
My wood splitter came with a Briggs and Stratton single cylinder 10.5 hp with some type of "Anti-Vibration System". Not going to say Nay just yet until a "B-S Scatter" event takes place.
My point is hard to recommend any brand without specifying a model series too.
In the V-Twins for Kohler it is the Command series. Some say the V-Twin Courages are OK too. I'd wait another 5 years on this.
B & S the good ones for sure are the Vanguard series.
I'll defer to those in the know about the Honda V-Twins.
ALL of the top line commercial stuff around here are Kawasaki air or water cooled V-Twins. NO failure that I've heard of.
Mr Bio. You do not want to loaded operate any of these 3600 RPM capable engines below 2200-2400 RPM. You are below the cam shaft/intake/exhaust designed maximum torque curve. You are below the effective designed air/water pump and oil pump RPM's ranges. This can be verified with loaded running temperate and pressure testing.
IMHO 1/2 at 1500 and 1800 Loaded running to too damn slow and will result in thermal breakdown and premature wear failures. These all idle at ~1200 rpm.
So there is two wear out factors to add to your wear out list: ANY abrasives in the air, oil or water; and spot localized overheating.
Long, long way from 1920's-30's-40's parifin and no additives lubricating oils to most 80's and todays wonder oil blends and CNC machinining and modern metalurgy that is now allowing RPM engines to live and work.
Regards
Steve Unruh
An exception to Steves post is the Briggs Vanguard 2/LC engine. It has peak torque curve of 40 ftlbs @ 2000 rpm. This is the only proof I have of any of the V-twins having peak torque that low. Otherwise I would follow Steves recommendation of running All other V-twins at 2400 and above. Guys, it is time for some people on this forum to get out of living in the Stone age. These engines are not listeroids. They are designed to run at at speeds that does not produce much vibration. For example, I cannot get over that people are still locked in to take engines like the Kubota Z482 and those Yanmar 2 cylinder inlines and want to try to make a generator where the engine will run below the designed minimum recomended speed. Don't you think the engineer's went through lots of R and D before they published the engines designed speeds? Some of you might remember that I experemented with a Kubota Z482 operating speeds and came to the conclusion that the engineers at the generator manufactures were right with thier operating speeds. I would not want to see any Kubota Z482 run below 2550 RPM. Below that speed the engine produces to much vibration. Why try to make a modern engine that is not designed to run under the recommended speed at all? It voids the engines warantee, The oil system is designed to operate at a certain speed to protect the engine. I think some members need to research critical engine speed. Bob G talked about this a few years back.
You want one of these V-twins last? Run it 100-200 rpm's over peak torque speed. Than install an external oil tank that holds 3 gallons. And than have an oil heater installed to keep the engine oil to a good operating temp. And also make sure that 3 Gallon tank is insulated. (That marathon engine holds 12 quarts, It has an oil heater and the oil sump is insulated.) Than those v-twins should run in excess of 20,000 hours easily.
Henry
Hmmm...I guess direct driving a gen head is out then. Probably would be best to go with a 48v system anyway, I'd like to install some solar panels too. I wish Marathon/Honda gave more info about their generating system. Would definately be interesting to put the whole house on batteries.
I'd probably put the whole thing into an insulated box, and try and keep the engine near operating temperature 24/7. That should help me collect heat from the alternator as well. I imagine less heating/cooling cycles will help the engine last.
The generating system on the Marathon looks like an Eagle Pitcher copy. Who knows, Marathon might of bought that division of Eagle Pitcher. I sure would like to find out myself. I am hoping that the Eagle Pitcher Alternators I have will run around 2400 RPM when loaded. I need to pull the back alternator off the LRG-425 and mount it on the Vangaurd engine. A matter of fact, the Vangaurd came with an Eagle Pitcher 48 volt Alternator mounted. All this stuff I purchased came from a warehouse that stored telecom surplus equipment.
You keep any engine up to operating temp 24/7 the engine should last longer.
Henry
I just had a talk with my neighbor, he's got a big swimming pool/hot tub about 100 feet from me. Seems he might be interested in purchasing "heat" from me for the pool. That would be a fantastic dump in the summer, he has to heat the pool througout.
I get excited about the weirdest things..... ::)
You have your first customer! I should be able to help here. Find out how large the swimming pool is. Length x Width x Average depth x 7.48 will give aprox gallons. Finding the water surface area is most important. This is where most heat is lost. Solar covers made out of bubble wrap floating on the water surface to help keep the heat from escaping. Does the pool have a chlorine injection pump injecting a Sodium Hypochlorite solution. Find out if the pool system is on a timer, ect.
This would be a good opportunity for testing.
Henry