There seems to be some confusion as to the mechanism that distributes the components throughout the medium of a solution.
A demonstration of diffusion as used in blending waste oils into diesel fuel
http://youtu.be/gTktwNRFjjE
Interesting video. Thanx!
I have done a similar test with WVO had RUG mix. The products stayed mixed beautifully until it got cold, then a solid layer of "fat" settled on the bottom of the container. This happened after about 6 months of being mixed. Even after being exposed to 100+f ambient temps the settled layer did not go back into solution. It was at this point that I decided that blended WVO was not going to work in my engine because it is only run during the winter to charge batteries.
I messed up the fuel system of my backhoe pretty good with this blend. I ended up having to completely drain the tank and then heating it with a weed burner so the "fat" would drain out. I did run the listeroid on this blend during the construction of our house and it did work well, until the weather turned cold. I then encountered some minor starting problems. I think the listeroid avoided the problem because the fuel tank was bolted to the engine so it was both heated and agitated.
I enjoyed your video. I checked out a couple more and decided that I throw a lot of stuff away that I don't need to. It's really a pain in the back to poke saw dust down cubies getting them ready for the dump. I'll experiment with your cleaning concept. That turkey gravy crap can actually be turned into a burnable WVO product that is safe to run in my beloved truck?
Hi cognos,
QuotePETF is a good example of this, don't use containers made of PETF (like water/juice bottles) to mix or store hydrocarbons. Never a good idea anyway, as every year, plenty of people are hospitalised for grabbing what they thought was a nice refreshing drink of water or juice or pop, and getting something else...
This is how I found out that used brake fluid doesn't taste as good as Pepsi-Cola. Luckily I wasn't chugging it and spit it out before the tonsil test. I'm a lot more careful about what the container looks like I store crap in. The gas can with the gas-diesel cleaning solution has a duct tape flag made from red and yellow strips. OK! I don't drink my Pepsi from gas cans - even plastic ones. In fact, I've evolved to where I only get one Coke a month. Wait a minute, it's the 15th and I have done my soft drink for February yet. We are what we drink!
Casey
Just a foot note from shed-logic research department - juice bottles & the like, laundry detergent bottles etc - may hold up to solvents but the spouts/caps/drain-back-cones usually aren't pleased. (Also - I saw this just yesterday, if you're visiting my dang shed-logic R&D center avoid the pretty pink Lexus complimentary bottled water with the neat nozzles - it's stump killer that the poison labels fell off of... )
The long term test was blended in a pop bottle and left on a shelf in an unheated storage container. I wanted to understand what happened on the backhoe. In your video you claimed a WVO/RUG blend would not separate. My experiment proves they do. So I'm calling BS.
Hi all,
In the blending tests that I have done with WVO and 25% RUG I was not able to get any separation to occur after sitting for 6 months. Now, that does not mean I am making a blanket statement for all blenders because the base stock probably has a lot to do with it. So I am careful not to make a "blending rule" from my findings.
At the same time, I feel confident sharing my findings because I don't get blasted from people who disagree experience.
It's all just information that you can take...or leave.
Firstly, I would like to emphasize to all members that what works for one person may not work for another, so be careful about making blanket rules about blending processes and success rates.
on the flip side....
Secondly, lets let everyone share their experiences without the fear of being shot down.
Nobody is forcing us to use other peoples opinions or experiences.
If you like what you read, then use it. If not, leave it for others to decide if it's useful or not.
cheers all,
veggie
My completely unscientific beliefs are that the stock is THE most important component of this situation. I use ONLY Non-hydrogenated canola WVO from a restaurant that does not fry anything with fat (french frys, fish, skinless chicken). I have NEVER under any circumstances seen any solids precipitate into a layer. The only solids in my stock are the food particles that come out with the paper cone filters, and centrifuge. My fuel (straight WVO) will become solid at around 10 degrees F. In my one tank Mercedes, in the winter, I do add about 15-20% RUG (self mixed in the tank). I have NO IDEA what it looks like in there, but as I have not clogged a fuel filter in 8000 miles, I suspect nothing is stratifying into layers that resemble fat.
All this as only my experience, and belief that fuel stock is EVERYTHING when it comes to blending fuels.
Yes it must be the stock, because what I was using (and still have about 100 gals) is hydrogenated soy oil that was use once for a salmon fish fry. It is a semi-solid at room temp. But it does mix with RUG beautifully and sat there on the shelf for months, until it got cold. It also gummed up the rack on the IP.
Quote from: Tom on February 15, 2012, 01:56:41 PM
The long term test was blended in a pop bottle and left on a shelf in an unheated storage container. I wanted to understand what happened on the backhoe. In your video you claimed a WVO/RUG blend would not separate. My experiment proves they do. So I'm calling BS.
Quote from: Tom on February 16, 2012, 10:29:30 AM
Yes it must be the stock, because what I was using (and still have about 100 gals) is hydrogenated soy oil that was use once for a salmon fish fry. It is a semi-solid at room temp. But it does mix with RUG beautifully and sat there on the shelf for months, until it got cold. It also gummed up the rack on the IP.
OK, Tom, so instead of accusing me of posting BS, we just need to understand why your sample produced a precipitate when it got cold; whereas mine does not. You have not told us how cold it got, nor do we know where you are.
My sample of well settled canola WVO blended at 20% with gasoline (petrol) does not produce a precipitate and remains liquid down to 0f (-18c). Whereas with more information from you, we now know that your sample was hydrogenated soy oil that was used once for a salmon fish fry; and it is a semi-solid at room temp.
So, we are hardly talking about the same experiment. I am actually surprised that you were able to dissolve your hydrogenated soy oil into gasoline (petrol) at all, because all samples of hydrogenated oil that I have tried will not dissolve into any petroleum distillate. So, perhaps you were just a little too hasty to accuse me of BS, like some other people on this forum.
Some people believe that differing specific gravities between two fluids in a solution will prevent them from miscibility. Here are 14 Videos that demonstrate the diffusion of various solvents into waste vegetable oil (WVO), which should collapse that belief system.
Blending Solvents with Vegetable Oil to make diesel fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swedNqY23jk
Blending lacquer thinner with vegetable oil to make Diesel Fuel (WOBDF)
http://youtu.be/XbopU_Xo3mM
Blending MEK with vegetable oil to make Diesel Fuel (WOBDF)
http://youtu.be/ZyD0-oFeQYo
Blending gasoline with vegetable oil to make diesel fuel II
http://youtu.be/wVec28qRS-U
Blending Turpentine with vegetable oil to make diesel fuel I
http://youtu.be/GnUsbeVsSew
Blending Xylol (xylene) with Vegetable Oil to Make Diesel Fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmf_rFU7v4E
Blending Toluol (Toluene) with Vegetable Oil to Make Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/4QnXI_PYvhA
Blending acetone with vegetable oil to make Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/Pqpo4SrVi6A
Blending Lamp Oil with vegetable oil to make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/h0kNrW7K0rE
Blending Coleman Fuel with vegetable oil to make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwmPvDLZUjs
Blending Naptha with vegetable oil to make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/iJMzTZoBCu4
Blending citrus oil with Vegetable Oil to Make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHrSeMv-ibE
Blending paint thinner with Vegetable Oil to Make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/e9xfsDQ8JM0
Blending Kerosene with Vegetable Oil to Make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/Y5JpqUDRUW0
beyond biodiesel,
Have you tested either the specific gravity or viscosity of these solutions to compare them to diesel?
Have you compared the volatility of these solutions to diesel?
Interesting videos.
thanks,
Curbie
Quote from: Curbie on February 16, 2012, 09:37:21 PM
beyond biodiesel,
Have you tested either the specific gravity or viscosity of these solutions to compare them to diesel?
Have you compared the volatility of these solutions to diesel?
Interesting videos.
thanks,
Curbie
Thanks, Curbie, yes, I have done a series of tests with specific gravity and viscosity for various blends of new canola and new 10/40 motor oils. I found new canola and new 10/40 motor oils behave almost identically when blended with gasoline, and it takes gasoline at 50% in either oil to get the blend to have the same specific gravity and viscosity of diesel fuel. However, driving tests on my 6.2L Detroit Diesel shows that 15% gasoline matches the driving characteristics of diesel fuel; however, I prefer more pep in my fuel, and I find it in 20-30% gasoline blends.
I have not compared volatility of blends verses D2. I would expect D2 to have a longer shelf-life, than a blend; however, I know from experience that my fuel blends are good for at least a month, most probably longer. If the fuel blend is kept in a cool shady place with a pressurized fuel cap, then it should be good for months. Waste oils otherwise have a long shelf life of years, longer than D2, so one could always blend the gasoline with the waste oil that is going to be used within a few months of blending and one should not notice significant fuel loss or thickening.
beyond biodiesel,
Quote from: beyond biodiesel on February 17, 2012, 10:27:57 AM
Thanks, Curbie, yes, I have done a series of tests with specific gravity and viscosity for various blends of new canola and new 10/40 motor oils.
Does your tests show a direct relationship between specific gravity and viscosity, or am I reading that incorrectly???
Do you use pre-heated fuel to try to further equalize the viscosity of the blend with that of diesel???
Thanks,
Curbie
Quote from: Curbie on February 17, 2012, 06:53:36 PM
beyond biodiesel,
Quote from: beyond biodiesel on February 17, 2012, 10:27:57 AM
Thanks, Curbie, yes, I have done a series of tests with specific gravity and viscosity for various blends of new canola and new 10/40 motor oils.
Does your tests show a direct relationship between specific gravity and viscosity, or am I reading that incorrectly???
Do you use pre-heated fuel to try to further equalize the viscosity of the blend with that of diesel???
Thanks,
Curbie
Curbie, I find reductions in specific gravity and viscosity due to blending gasoline (petrol) with waste oils parallel each other; however, the relationship is not linear, such that while the viscosity might be spot on, the specific gravity will not be, so I look to viscosity as the primary measurement; however, measuring viscosity is expensive, if you purchase a calibrated viscup, or visgage. I have both. hydrometers are much cheaper, but they are made of glass, so they are easily broken. If you break 8 hydrometers, then you just bought yourself a calibrate viscup. Home made viscups tend to be problematic, because just poking a hole in a pop bottle, and calibrating it with diesel fuel does not necessarily equal a reliable instrument. Apparently if the hole is too big, or too small, then the measurements are not reliable.
Nonetheless, as I mentioned above, making the specific gravity and viscosity of your blend equal to diesel fuel does not seem to be necessary, because waste oil blends containing gasoline (petrol) at 15-20% seem to perform like diesel fuel.
While specific gravity and viscosity are temperature dependent, which means if you are going to measure the specific gravity and viscosity of your blend then you will need to precisely measure the temperature of your sample; nonetheless, heating a blend containing gasoline (petrol) at 15-20% over 120F (50c) can lead to vapor-lock, so if you are going to heat your blend to reduce your need for gasoline (petrol) in your blend, then either keep the temperature of your blend before the lift pump below 120F (50c) and/or reduce the content of gasoline (petrol) in your blend to 10% or less. The temperature of the blend in the positive pressure side of your fuel system is not relevant, except if you have a PSD engine, which has a low-pressure common rail. In this case gasoline (petrol) in your blend at 15% is max.
beyond biodiesel,
I've had good luck with my DYI viscometer in obtaining repeatable results, have you tried blending with methanol, its Reid Vapor Pressure is about 60% of gasoline permitting greater fuel pre-heat to equalize viscosity with that of diesel, was about $1/gal in 55 gallon quantities last time I bought a drum several years ago, and has a much higher auto-ignition temperature (875F) than gasoline (500F)?
I have not tried blending with methanol, just transesterification, and was just curious.
Thanks,
Curbie
Good to know Curbie, that your home made viscosometer is reliable.
Yes, I have tried blending waste oils with various alcohols (isopropanol, methanol and ethonal) none of them would go into solution with canola oil. I have not tried them with motor oil, but I am willing to speculate that it will not work without a co-solvent. Acetone is a common co-solvent, and I am willing to speculate it will take acetone at about 15% in methanol to get it to blend with any oil.
Just curious,
Is this the Jeff Brooks that grew up in Highland NY?
Terry
Quote from: Curbie on February 18, 2012, 09:04:42 AM
beyond biodiesel,
I've had good luck with my DYI viscometer in obtaining repeatable results, have you tried blending with methanol, its Reid Vapor Pressure is about 60% of gasoline permitting greater fuel pre-heat to equalize viscosity with that of diesel, was about $1/gal in 55 gallon quantities last time I bought a drum several years ago, and has a much higher auto-ignition temperature (875F) than gasoline (500F)?
I have not tried blending with methanol, just transesterification, and was just curious.
Thanks,
Curbie
Hey Curbie,
How did you build your DIY viscometer ?
I've been thinking of putting one together for quite some time.
veggie
beyond biodiesel,
I understand why 91% isopropanol (9% water) and 90% everclear ethanol (10% water) won't create a solution because of the water, and I'm not sure if the denatured alcohol (ethanol) is dried before denaturing, but the methanol should not contain water so immiscibility does seem related to water alone, an interesting set of experiments, thanks for sharing.
veggie,
I starting with a (a few really, after mistakes) 2 oz stainless steel shot jiggers, and a thin bolt with a flat head and not threaded all the way to head with matching nuts, and a low tension coil spring, and a 100 ml graduated test tube.
Drilled a hole in the bottom of the shot jigger slightly larger than the unthreaded bolt shaft, put the bolt through the bottom of the jigger a washer and nut for the spring to keep the bolt head seated to the button of the jigger.
The tricks to repeatable results are always put exactly 55ml of liquid in to start the test with and I time the time it takes to fill from 10ml to 50 ml of the graduated test tube. My times are repeatable within a second, but that difference may be due to my age. I like the size of the hole to be such, that the test times are between 30 and 60 seconds depending on viscosity. Obviously, the viscosity of oil depends on temperature and I use a cheapo analog 0-220 kitchen thermometer.
Curbie
Quote from: EBI-WPO on February 18, 2012, 05:25:26 PM
Just curious,
Is this the Jeff Brooks that grew up in Highland NY?
Terry
Nope, born and raised in Tucson, Arizona, traveled around the world by the time I was 15, went to 5 high schools, two of which were in southern NJ, which was a far cry from the previous schools in Australia and Trinidad BWI.
For those wanting to make your own viscup. Here is a chart for making them:
(http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j411/jhananda/Bio-fuels/viscuptable.jpg)
beyond biodiesel,
I'm confused by Average Centistokes per second... Efflux time * Average Centistokes/s does not equal Centistokes. Is there more to that diagram?
Curbie
Curbie, the chart is one that I put together from multiple sources, so there may be some inconsistencies in it. The sources were all interested in selling precision machined viscups at about $200 US, so they were not going to provide all of the data. Also, each cup comes with a curve to adjust your reading. And, of course the orifice is different for each cup. Also, there might just be some differences in cup volume from one manufacturer to the next, which I was not able to collect for all, but cup volume = 50cc for the one I use, which has interchangeable orifices. However, the data should give anyone sufficient information to make a cup. A home made cup is going to have to be calibrated anyway.
Quote from: beyond biodiesel on February 19, 2012, 04:00:39 PM
Curbie, the chart is one that I put together from multiple sources, so there may be some inconsistencies in it. The sources were all interested in selling precision machined viscups at about $200 US, so they were not going to provide all of the data. Also, each cup comes with a curve to adjust your reading. And, of course the orifice is different for each cup. Also, there might just be some differences in cup volume from one manufacturer to the next, which I was not able to collect for all, but cup volume = 50cc for the one I use, which has interchangeable orifices. However, the data should give anyone sufficient information to make a cup. A home made cup is going to have to be calibrated anyway.
beyond biodiesel,
I wish I had that information before I did my testing, but thanks for the information, here's the full Zahn Cup specs and math to estimate Centistoke.
Curbie
(http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz177/Curbie_Pics/Viscosity.jpg)
Quote from: Curbie on February 19, 2012, 05:28:00 PM
beyond biodiesel,
I wish I had that information before I did my testing, but thanks for the information, here's the full Zahn Cup specs and math to estimate Centistoke.
Curbie
Thanks, Curbie, for posting the new chart. Very useful.