Well I shut the 8/1 down today after running 31 days with only a few hours down for an oil change, and after close inspection nothing seems the worse for the wear, it runs a 24 volt alternator that charges my battery bank which runs an inverter which powers my water pump, freezer and refrigerator.
Now I'm going to leave it off for a month and compare electric bills, should be interesting, I was having problems with rpm instability, DGman sent me a new injector pump and now it runs rock steady, the only thing I have now is a fuel leak in the copper washers on the banjo bolt on the injector pump, I'm considering trying some kind of hard plastic rings since that is low pressure there anyway, I wish it was tapped for pipe thread.
What type of fuel? How much did it use?
Ha, I lost that copper ring one of the first times I took that banjo bolt off. Didn't have an extra one so I used teflon sealant. Hasn't leaked at all. That was almost 1000 hours ago.
Yeah, we're interested in your results/data.
Marcus
It has run on my biodiesel it's whole life so far, it used 3.33 gallons in 24 hours, so 17.76 ounces per hour, wow, that's kind of a patriotic number :D So it cost me $2.66 per 24 hours, I want to get a heat exchanger set up so I can run on centrifuged and dried veg oil.
That would bring it down to about a dollar per 24 hours.
Is the copper washer distorted? If not, just heat it red hot to anneal/soften it and it should then be able to conform to the surfaces and make a seal...
I'll try that, there's one on each side of the banjo fitting.
Fabricator,
Thanks for the feedback on your system useage.
It will be interesting to see the difference now that you are on the grid again.
Veggie
Yeah it's kinda strange when you can't wait for the electric bill ???
After you heat that washer quench it in cold water. Yeah, the tempering process works opposite for non-ferrous metals,
the quicker you cool copper, the softer it will be. To a point of course. ;)
Ron
Definitely gonna try that.
Quote from: fabricator on February 01, 2012, 03:02:59 PM
The only thing I have now is a fuel leak in the copper washers on the banjo bolt on the injector pump, I'm considering trying some kind of hard plastic rings since that is low pressure there anyway, I wish it was tapped for pipe thread.
That was one of the first things I did. That is, lost the banjo bolt and Indian rubber hose setup, drilled/tapped injector for NPT, then installed SS fittings and teflon line that could handle diesel/VO and being heated to 500 deg F.
Bob B.
Quote from: Ronmar on February 01, 2012, 04:44:23 PM
Is the copper washer distorted? If not, just heat it red hot to anneal/soften it and it should then be able to conform to the surfaces and make a seal...
How do you do that to prevent it from getting all "oxidiziey" and black flakes ?
Quote from: fabricator on February 01, 2012, 03:02:59 PM
with only a few hours down for an oil change
I always thought it would be neat to come up with a system that burns a metered amount of oil with your fuel from an add on oil tank, you'd never need to shutdown to change the oil, just top it off every now and then. (the way some big trucks work) I've seen aftermarket kits for this but I can't remember how they worked now....
Glad to hear it ran good once the pump problem was fixed!
I have been replacing the copper washers with fiber washers and have had great luck with them as long as the surfaces are reasonable. Most of the Indian stuff will have burrs and dents that affect sealing, I just file them flat. Annealing the copper washers as suggested helps a lot too. Heat to dull red and quench and they will be dead soft.
Picture is one of many kits that are sold. Search for "red fiber wasers" or "sealing washers" or similar. Mine is much larger and came from Ebay. It has like 50 sizes from 1/8" hole to 1 1/4" with several O.D.s for each I.D.
Harbor Freight sells a small kit like this
(http://www.newcoproducts.com/new/ferrari/images/fiber_washers.jpg)
Congrats Fabricator!
After your first extended run, it might be a good idea to take a look at the upper bearing shell surface (on your next oil change). This is really the only place on these engines where you can see the short term effects of dirt/sand. Better to know, and take corrective action.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I simply went to CarQuest and bought some. Hung a couple up on the wall for spares. They were about a $.30 ea.
Ken Gardner
Sounds pretty good to me fab! We can't see a flaw in the old pump, but that is to be expected, they are a very finely lapped precision fit and there must be a flaw in that original element that was causing the erratic behavior.
For fuel pump supply line seal, Lister used what they call a Dowty washer. It is a steel washer with bonded rubber inner seal that squeezes onto the banjo threads and shoulder, and can conform to irregular surfaces - (within reason). The only drawback is they most often require replacement when removed and they are not easy on the pocketbook $$$ :'(
Your fuel costs sound great as well! Keep up the good work!
dieselgman
Quote from: sailawayrb on February 01, 2012, 06:59:04 PM
Quote from: fabricator on February 01, 2012, 03:02:59 PM
The only thing I have now is a fuel leak in the copper washers on the banjo bolt on the injector pump, I'm considering trying some kind of hard plastic rings since that is low pressure there anyway, I wish it was tapped for pipe thread.
That was one of the first things I did. That is, lost the banjo bolt and Indian rubber hose setup, drilled/tapped injector for NPT, then installed SS fittings and teflon line that could handle diesel/VO and being heated to 500 deg F.
Bob B.
This is the banjo bolt on the fuel pump, hmmmm, might be able to run a pipe tap in there, there is quite a bit of meat where the bolt threads in.
Quote from: mike90045 on February 01, 2012, 07:13:37 PM
Quote from: Ronmar on February 01, 2012, 04:44:23 PM
Is the copper washer distorted? If not, just heat it red hot to anneal/soften it and it should then be able to conform to the surfaces and make a seal...
How do you do that to prevent it from getting all "oxidiziey" and black flakes ?
That won't happen with copper.
Quote from: BioHazard on February 02, 2012, 12:08:58 AM
Quote from: fabricator on February 01, 2012, 03:02:59 PM
with only a few hours down for an oil change
I always thought it would be neat to come up with a system that burns a metered amount of oil with your fuel from an add on oil tank, you'd never need to shutdown to change the oil, just top it off every now and then. (the way some big trucks work) I've seen aftermarket kits for this but I can't remember how they worked now....
There is such a system they use on big rigs, it burns an adjustable metered amount of engine oil and replaces it from a tank, you just need to keep the tank filled with new oil, that is an interesting thought though, might have to look into that.
Quote from: playdiesel on February 02, 2012, 06:42:12 AM
Glad to hear it ran good once the pump problem was fixed!
I have been replacing the copper washers with fiber washers and have had great luck with them as long as the surfaces are reasonable. Most of the Indian stuff will have burrs and dents that affect sealing, I just file them flat. Annealing the copper washers as suggested helps a lot too. Heat to dull red and quench and they will be dead soft.
Picture is one of many kits that are sold. Search for "red fiber wasers" or "sealing washers" or similar. Mine is much larger and came from Ebay. It has like 50 sizes from 1/8" hole to 1 1/4" with several O.D.s for each I.D.
Harbor Freight sells a small kit like this
(http://www.newcoproducts.com/new/ferrari/images/fiber_washers.jpg)
Definitely one for the must have list.
Quote from: BruceM on February 02, 2012, 06:48:34 AM
Congrats Fabricator!
After your first extended run, it might be a good idea to take a look at the upper bearing shell surface (on your next oil change). This is really the only place on these engines where you can see the short term effects of dirt/sand. Better to know, and take corrective action.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I have been reading the threads about the solid upper shell, sounds like a damn good idea to me.
Check the surface finish on the banjo polish if nessary. The copper work hardens and will not form and seal as well if lossened and the banjo is rotated then reused. Even the the surface finish on the pump can cause problems. Soft copper with a good surface should work great at least once.....good luck!
Quote from: fabricator on February 02, 2012, 02:29:15 PM
There is such a system they use on big rigs, it burns an adjustable metered amount of engine oil and replaces it from a tank, you just need to keep the tank filled with new oil
Umm, not anymore they don't. It's not only illegal to burn anything but low sulfur fuel in on-highway engines, traces of used engine oil in the fuel system can foul modern electronically controlled injection nozzles. It lowers the cetane number of the fuel enough to cause significant ignition delay, which screws up the emission systems in modern diesels and will plug the DPF in short order.
Most OTR rigs use centrifuge cleaning systems to extend lube oil change intervals.
--
Chris
Quote from: ChrisOlson on February 02, 2012, 08:52:39 PM
Umm, not anymore they don't. It's not only illegal to burn anything but low sulfur fuel in on-highway engines, traces of used engine oil in the fuel system can foul modern electronically controlled injection nozzles. It lowers the cetane number of the fuel enough to cause significant ignition delay, which screws up the emission systems in modern diesels and will plug the DPF in short order.
Not true. Still an option direct from Cummins:
https://qsol2.cummins.com/info/qsol/products/newparts/centinel.html
All engines burn oil, it's just a matter of how much. It's certainly not illegal, on road or off. I know they make aftermarket kits that do this, but I can't find any right now.
Bio
Better go read the link you put up. You will find the following quote.
"- CENTINEL is the only oil management system to be EPA-certified for Tier 2"
I believe we are now at tier 4 or at least interim tier 4 which makes the centinel system some what obsolete.
Now maybe if you are running older engines that are tier 2 or older you might squeak by.
Billswan
That's correct. All engines sold since 2008 can no longer use it. Turbocharged engines are still allowed to vent the crankcase to the atmosphere. But any engine using an exhaust aftertreatment system cannot use oil burning systems.
But the point is extended oil changes - the centrifuge cleaning system in use on most modern engines where extended change intervals are desirable have proven superior to the old Centinal style systems. The centrifuge systems remove contaminants down to 1 micron, whereas conventional filtration systems are usually good to 10-15 micron.
With synthetics being spec'd by most manufacturers of Tier 4 diesels the issue no longer is replacing the oil, but keeping it clean.
Edit: At Cummins we played with centrifuge cleaning systems in the 80's on K-series genset engines and had limited success with them. But the technology has improved significantly in the last 30 years to where they actually work. With Dale's engine making a one month run (about 700 hours) on an oil change the best way to tell if oil change is actually required at that point is to stop into a fleet shop someplace and pick up an oil sample kit. Send it in to the lab and have it analyzed to see much life was left in it, and what sort of metals and at what concentrations it contained. If the spectrochemical analysis shows iron over 22 ppm and bearing materials like lead, tin and aluminum over 2 ppm, then you probably ran the oil too long.
--
Chris
Chris, I was just wondering, how do the big rigs deal with the carbon issue in diesel motor oil. I thought even centrifugal treatment wouldn't remove it. Do the new centrifugal filters get the carbon out too?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Most of the units I've seen have a pre-screen or filter that removes anything larger than 45 micron. The centrifuge does the rest.
--
Chris
One thing to remember here, we are dealing with stationary single cylinder engines burning basically anything that even looks a little greasy as long as you can heat it up and make it at least semi liquid, tranny fluid, used motor oil, bio diesel, waste vegetable oil, the
EPA can go take a flyin Fing leap as far as their tier system is concerned.
I believe lister originally called for 100 hours for the first oil change and 250 hours after that, with these things the oil turns black as coal after about 20 or 30 hours, pretty much like any diesel engine, I think I will have it analyzed next time, I'll bet they'll have to switch the machine to parts per thousand. ;D
Quote from: fabricator on February 03, 2012, 03:14:05 PM
EPA can go take a flyin Fing leap as far as their tier system is concerned.
That may be. What's the regs on importing those engines?
--
Chris
It's illegal to import new engines, they don't meet the regs for stationary engines, they can still import them into Canada for now, if you want one now you buy a "kit" and assemble it.
It's total gummint BS, my engine running bio or veg oil will meet or beat ant EPA regs out there.
Quote from: fabricator on February 03, 2012, 03:33:23 PM
It's illegal to import new engines, they don't meet the regs for stationary engines
Yes, that's what I was getting at. If the manufacturer does not provide a certification for EPA then you can't import it unless you, yourself, want to go thru the certification process. The certification process will involve certifying the engine to meet Tier 4 specs burning a specific fuel (ULSD). In some cases, some manufacturers have gone thru certification with blends up to B20 below 15 ppm sulfur, such as the Cummins B-series, ISX, etc.. But at present with Tier 4 interim Stage IIIB for 2012, I know of no manufacturer that has certified an engine with B100.
biodiesel fuel typically causes high NOx emission, so I think it would be hard to do.
While it may not matter in your application, eventually it will determine whether or not the engines will continue to be available even in "kit" form as new manufacture. I know where I can get a air cooled 5 kW SL2 for little of nothing in Canada, but I can't get it thru Customs because of this.
--
Chris
There is a LOT of unsecured border up there in the great frigid north land. ;D
Ever tried to haul a 2,000 lb engine across The Lake of the Woods in a 14 foot boat in the middle of the night? ::)
--
Chris
No, But I can't wait to hear the story. :D
Me neither, sounds like a good 'un! :D :D Maybe you could cover it in cow poop and junk & tell 'em it's a load of scrap iron. ::)
Ron
Well I annealed the copper washers today and it apparently worked like a charm, everything over there is dry as a bone.
How many amps can you get out of your alternator if the bank is down to say 24 volts?
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Chris
I believe it's a 100 amp alternator, but right now I have it set at 27.3 volts, if I set it higher it over volts the inverter and it shuts down, so I'm not really sure what the amps do when my loads are high, but when they go off it comes back to 27.3 pretty fast, I need to get another doc watson to put on the alternator input.
But running continuously the bank never gets below around 26 volts, with all the loads on.
Something's fishy if an inverter designed for a 24V system is having trouble with even 30V input.
A normal cold temperature charge should take the batteries near that. (29.2V)
I wonder if you could take a look with an oscilliscope and see if you're getting some spikes on the alternator output that are causing the problem. You may have to add some filtering on the alternator output to solve the problem.
The inverter fab has does indeed have problems with much over 29 volts. I had the identical inverter at one point, and IIRC, at 30.0 it was already kicked out.
--
Chris
What make and model of inverter is it?
I believe he is using a AIMS:
http://www.aimscorp.net/5000-watt-24-volt-power-inverter-by-aims/
They have changed these inverters. I blew two up, I believe Fab has blown a couple. It says they will take 34 volts, but they don't. They measure the voltage bogus and the volt meter on the inverter will show it higher than what it really is.
Edit: Let me put this a different way. There's Chinese volts and kilowatts and American volts and kilowatts. The two are not the same. These "5,000 watt" inverters weigh about 30 lbs. My Xantrex SW Plus units are only 4,000 but they will put out 4x the power and they weigh 300+.
--
Chris
Yeah that's the one, I only smoked one and that was my fault, it'll run up to 32.5 before it kicks out, I've got my dump set at 29.5.
Most 24V inverters of any make have a high V kick out somewhere between 32-34.
Did you get one of them new shorter ones when your first one hatched?
The voltage those things "see" is bogus. I got my SW+'s set for 33.0 volt kickout and when I still had the AIMS hooked up it would kick out at 30.3, as shown on the Xantrex for actual battery voltage. When I got my new Surrette bank I had to give up on the AIMS and retire it. I absorb those batteries at 30.0 and it wouldn't stay online during absorb.
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Chris
Hi Chris,
I hear you on the bogus specs and poor quality of the AIMs unit. Sometimes a bargain isn't. I read a good article by an engineer who reverse engineered a cheap 12V inverter to see why it worked so poorly. He was not surprised by the time he was done. It was a poor hack of someone else's design, by someone who didn't know what they were doing.
The Trace designed (bought by Xantrex) SW series sine inverter/chargers are an outstanding piece of engineering. They got a patent for their ingenious low frequency design using 3 big transformers. They had a microprocessor controlling 3 H-bridges on the input (primary) side, giving them 27 steps on the out (secondary) side. The secondary side are just wired in series to sum the three.
I don't know if the Xantrex products currently being sold as "SW" series are the same, that may be marketing slight of hand. But the tip off would be the weight; the original had 3 big transformers, and at near 60 Hz frequency, that makes for big transformers.
Here's a link to a very nice history of inverter design basics by a Trace company engineer.
http://www.dieselduck.ca/machine/04%20auxiliary/2000%20Inverter%20technology.pdf
Quote from: ChrisOlson on February 05, 2012, 01:41:24 PM
Did you get one of them new shorter ones when your first one hatched?
The voltage those things "see" is bogus. I got my SW+'s set for 33.0 volt kickout and when I still had the AIMS hooked up it would kick out at 30.3, as shown on the Xantrex for actual battery voltage. When I got my new Surrette bank I had to give up on the AIMS and retire it. I absorb those batteries at 30.0 and it wouldn't stay online during absorb.
--
Chris
Yep one of the shorter ones, hey no argument on the quality, I'm still workin towards a XW4024, first I gotta upgrade to 200 amp service here, I got absolutely no room for another 220 breaker to run to the XW, the 200amp upgrade should be happening soon, the electricians all set, it's just getting the borg to cooperate.
Quote from: BruceM on February 05, 2012, 02:38:31 PM
Here's a link to a very nice history of inverter design basics by a Trace company engineer.
http://www.dieselduck.ca/machine/04%20auxiliary/2000%20Inverter%20technology.pdf
Hey Bruce, thanks for that. That was an INTERESTING read!
The new ones are XW-series and they have continued using the same basic design as the SW's. The only difference now is that the XW-series has 240 split phase built in, without having to stack inverters, and it has auto-load balancing built in.
I got my SW Plus 4024's brand new, still in the box, with a T240 balancing transformer to keep them leg balanced, a Trace ALM (Auxiliary Load Module), a Trace GSM (Generator Start Module), and AC Conduit Boxes for both units. Those SW's will deliver 14.4 kW (60 amps @ 240 volt) for 10 seconds, and will easily carry 9 kW of continuous load long enough for the master to start the generator and bring it online for Peak Load Management.
The day one of my AIMS inverters blew and the power went out my wife went ape over it. I got explicit instructions on how to get in the truck and go buy some decent inverters. I went to a brick and mortor RE store with the idea of getting twin Outbacks. When I told the guy all my wife wanted, he just said, "Nope - won't work. You need these." "These" was the above described equipment sitting on a pallet in the warehouse. He opened up one of the boxes so I could see. I was going to spin the box around to take a better look and it wouldn't move. I kid you not, I looked under the pallet to see if it had concrete anchors going into the floor or something.
It took three men to lift each one of those units up and get it bolted to the wall. But holy crap, what a difference.
You try to get 4 kW continuous for more than a minute from one of those AIMS "5 kW" inverters and it overheats. I had mine apart when it blew the last time and they only 10 gauge wire feeding the "full power" AC terminal block on it. I thought they were pretty good. And they replaced them under warranty every time one blew up. But otherwise, they are pretty weak.
I been on this forum for a long time but just read it mostly. I been watching Dale's Lister being used for a CHP unit here with great interest. I don't know how many hours one is good for before it needs overhaul, but it's pretty cool and I like the concept.
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Chris
Yeah and now you got me dreaming increased oil capacity and circulation, like I need another project. :-[
Thanks for the good info, Chris. It's good to hear Xantrex didn't get rid of the basic Trace SW design. I noticed they are selling high frequency sine models now too, I guess the pressure to make smaller, cheaper units was irresistible.
Alas, there's no SW series for 120VDC, unless I roll my own, much simplified version.
there is a new wrinkle in the marathon run, it's now running on centrifuged and dried waste veg oil.
this is the veg tank with the thermosiphon tank below it.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/fabricator01/photobucket-38360-1329092418839.jpg)
I ran 3/8 OD copper from the veg tank into the water tank and have about 20 feet in a coil at the top of the tank.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/fabricator01/photobucket-27178-1329092462084.jpg)
Then I ran the copper inside the upper hose down to the engine.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/fabricator01/photobucket-23826-1329092504467.jpg)
What you see there is a compression fitting that I drilled out and ran the copper through it, it worked great.
This is an overview of how it tees into the fuel line, it's now all insulated.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/fabricator01/photobucket-11215-1329092546876.jpg)
I'm gonna get a smaller fuel filter, the big one holds too much oil and lets it cool down some, the switch over was seamless, it never even stuttered just kept running nice and steady.