Micro CoGen.

Hi Guys

  Yea, I know, some of you will say that I've got more than one problem!!!  <grin>

  But, speaking to this specific problem, here's the situation:

  NYSERDA, a branch of NYSEG, our local utility provider has a program where they will pay you $1.75 per watt of installed solar power placed on-line.  There is one hitch, however, the system has to installed by a NYSERDA approved installer, and all payments are made to the installer, with distribution thereof the installer/owners concern and of no consequence to NYSERDA.

  I found out that an approved installer was required AFTER I began the process of acquireing all of the pieces-parts for the system and have been trying ever since to find an approved installer that will work with me to at least split the proceeds with me, with NO luck after emailing/phoning the entire list of over 100 approved installers!  Since installers normally make a large portion of their fees on the mark up of equipment and since I've already got almost all of my equipment, nobody's interested!!!

  Also, it seems that if I can get some one to help me, they would have to actually do the install, because they have to certify, to NYSERDA, that it is okay and sign up to "maintain" it for three years following commission.

  The situation is compounded by the fact that my location in the far western southern tier of New York State is physically remote from almost all of NYSERDA's approved installers.

  I have gone so far as to look into becoming a "provisional" installer, a normal step in the route to becoming a full, certified, installer, but the requirements are too time consuming/demanding to be of help to me, and the courses are all taught in Syracuse, a 100 miles away from me - it doesn't make sense spending $10,000 and a year on courses/travel/expenses to get a certification to get a $6,300 payment!

  I HATE the thought of walking away from $6,300.00, or even some part of that, but I don't see a way around it . . .

  Anybody got any good suggestions, other than plan better next time??? <grin>

  Hoping somebody can pull a rabbit out of the hat!

  HELP!!!!  PLEASE!!!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

Ya. I was taught to use a matrix to solve logical problems. Since you are not able to get one of the approved contractors to work with you, and since you have investigated (and ruled out) becoming an approved installer, there are 2 options left to you.

1. Sell everything you already have on eBay, hopefully you will take less than a $6300 bath, and start over with an approved contractor. Permits/code/timeframe etc. are all done for you, no questions left unanswered, your home insurance will be unaffected.

2. Do the math, and if it adds up to a $6300 savings, do it yourself, and eat ignore the grant. In this option, you get the system done the way you want it - rightly or wrongly, it's up to you.

Simple as those two choices.

Geeze WayneS.
You sure you want to open this can of worms?!

My take on this and how I actually live:
"What the Lord (of the Land) givith; the Lord can (and will at a whim) take away."
Sounds like a legislative sweet heart deal took place in your state between the trade org and the bureaucrats.
I just don't buy into to any of the governments or commercial rebate programs anymore. I have in the past. Learned they ALL come with strings attached to guide me into their way of thinking/spending/investing. Can you say "Carrot on a stick!!"?
All of these local/regional and state "rebate", "buy back" programs are being subsidized by all of your neighbor rate/tax payers. Ain't no such thing as free, cheap money.

Forge on ahead to make your own power and heat with personal safety and personal insurability as your practical guidelines.

I heat with wood from my own trees grown on my own property. Regional AAA rated insurance company based out of the Pee-U-gut metro area we've had for over 20 years decided to go Urban Green and was finding reasons to drop ALL wood burning clients throughout my big state. They asked for a new onsite inspection. I was there - offered them full access. They declined inside house inspection. Then sent a letter of intent to cancel "Do to failure to allow an in house inspection". Cancelled them instead and went with a Mid-west based National.

We are only Free and Independent by making ourself so. No change from this from our fore fathers in the past - you can only be as Free as you assert yourself to be. Just different vehicles needed now to accomplish it.

All of course my own opinions.
Washington State Steve Unruh

Wayne, I know what I would tell NYSE et al,  KISS OL RUSTY!  as in "kiss my rusty arse".
Then I would do as I damn well pleased. ;)
Ron

Wayne,

First I'm sorry to hear your plight.

Second, I believe I advised you early on, at least a couple of links, to consultants, which may have short circuited your current problems.

Now, NYC, NYState.....has always been known as the PAYOLA STATE(even if-yu live in the city). I even know this living in WA. the other washington.

Everybody in NYC/NYS, accepts payola... now you're mission, should you choose to accept it is...

find someone qualified, that will accept payola, that still generates you a net gain... it might be pennies, or it might be dollars....but it's your choice.

cheap does not compute....

otherwise you can always petition the state legislature.

Hi Guys!

  You have basically echoed everthing that I have thought . . .

  I was thinking, as a last ditch effort, to send NESERDA a letter stating that I was going to sue them for false advertising, since they advertise a program that there is no way for me to secure - conveiniently leaving out the fact that I have accumulated my own components, just to see what they do!!!

  I figure that the worst they can do isay "Okay, we'll see you in Court!!"  <grin>

  So far, when I have asked for their help in finding a contractor they have said "We don't get involved in the selection of a contractor because that might be construed as showing favoritism to a particular contractor."  but, maybe, the threat of a lawsuit will cause them to pull a rabbit out of the hat!!!

  The one problem is that if I P/O them I might never get grid connected - Of course the only rou make the eal reson I'm grid connecting is to get there $6,000 +.  I'd be perfectly happy off grid!  <smile>


  As for payola, I'd be happy to pay somebody a "reasonable" sum if I could just figure out who to pay!!!  It is a kinda delicate situation because if you make overtures to the wrong person, you make the whole mess worse, not better - AND subtlety was never my strong suit!  <grin>

  As far as paying off a contractor, NESERDA does that!!!  They give them 75% of the total award upon the presentation of a list of the components/serial-numbers/etc. that are present and accounted for, which in my case, is immediately, since everything is setting there in a pile!!!  NYSERDA then pays the contractor the other 25% when NYSEC turns it all on.  It is up to the homeowner and the contractor to work out how the money is split between them and NYSERDA doesn't get involved in that

  Thanx for your (im?)moral support.

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

Hi Wayne,

Forget the electric co.   It's not worth the time and money.

In my case there were a few incentives to be had if I connected to the grid and had their certified installers do the work.   Probably would have been in a similar situation as you, though quite a bit less than $6300.  (More like $2000.)   It wasn't worth it.   Besides all the grid fees, etc., etc.    Figure I'm getting power "cheaper" now than I did before, but I had to build the house very efficient.

I had to pay a special certified installer to come out and inspect my system, because the guy who did the work (even writes for "Home Power Magazine" and was on the cover on the most current issue) was not certified by the state for PV installations, and the county inspectors required it.   Still it was cheaper just to pay the other state-certified electric co. a few hundred bucks to inspect it and report back to the county than pay them armloads of money to build it in the first place.   Sounds like installers in your region don't want to play along with that idea.   The whole system was pretty expensive even then, but I got most of the state and fed tax credits which reduced cost by 1/2.  Of course, when you're off-grid, all you really need to do is follow county codes, not do the silly things the electric co. sometimes wants....

Marcus

Wayne,

Not only what Marcus said, but put yourself in an installers shoes. Would you stand behind a system assembled with panels that are seconds from an unfamiliar vendor? A home made generator where if the wrong gear/governor setting is chosen may fry somethings? It seems you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Tom:

  Generator is immaterial - NYSERDA doesn't care if you have one or not and it is not any part of the package for reimbnursement by NYSERDA.  The installer would only be siging up that the photo-electric part of the system met/meets NYSERDA's requirements.

  I DO understand someone's reluctance to certify something that somebody else has done - and for that reason, and just common-sense/personal-safety I have specified that I want/require that everything be inspected by the "installer" and that he be satisfied that it is up to snuff.

  The panels are certified to meet all requirements and, upon physical inspection, there are no glaring problems apparent.  In fact, I have not raised the issue of the panels being seconds with any of the potential "installers" so that is also a non-issu at this point.  Also, Sunrise Solar, the panel supplier is one of the larger suppliers in the US, so they are definately not "Fly-by-Night".  <grin>

  My judgement is that it is simply a matter of money - they all want to make all that they can, as easily as they can, with as little hassle as possible - and there just isn't enough money in the deal to get anybody interested - particularly since my job would require more-or-less "camping-out" in the "wilderness" for a week while the job is/was done!

  I sort of feel that in the list of over 100 installers, if the price were high enough, you could find at least one who would "certify" ANYTHING that you are willing to present!

  Perhaps I am cynical, but that's me!  <grin>

  Gotta go get to work - time's a wasting!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

"they all want to make all that they can, as easily as they can, with as little hassle as possible"

Can you blame "them?" That is the very definition of business in a capitalist economy. All business works toward this goal, whether they know it or not.

To make an infinitely high profit, with an infinitely low input, instantly, and forever.

Anything other than these absolutes is a compromise. Or a hobby... ;D

The trick is to find the extent of compromise that you - and the rest of society - can live with safely and ethically.

Seems to me that you have but one real choice to make. To be grid-tied and offset your costs you have no choice but to dance with the state's rules. Or you can go off-grid and become your own self-financed utility, and possibly your own insurer. Now - is this a business or a hobby? Run the payback numbers and find out... and determine your risk tolerance.

Just my opinion.

I see a job opportunity for somebody. You can't be the only one in the state that would like a piece of the pie
without mortgaging their soul.
So consider a career change. Get the certification and start making a little extra on the side (or weekends).
There are a lot of courses (and classes) that you can take online.
Might be a good second career or something to provide extra money when you retire.

The only thing the damned government cannot take away from you is what you have already learned.

(Of course, Alzheimer's will take that and everything else!!)


Ralph

Sorry folks.

I'm just not into this business people are all Momentary Profit Maximizers (MPM).  Many of us still believe in the relationship power of the deal.  The Donald Trumps of the world may have this MPM genetic disorder but most of us simply do not.  A couple of very important contributors to this web site, I suspect, through hard work, good products, excellent service and lasting relationships EARN every dime they make. 

Some of you don't seem willing to make the investment required to become one of the anointed persons.  If you did then I'd guess you'd be slow to endorse DIY systems as well.  If someone does take this project on I'm sure they'll EARN every dime they make.  Aren't you really just working the other side of the MPM,  Save Every Stinking Dime I Can (SESDIC).  I cannot put in a public forum the language required to express how tired some of us are of the SESDIC crowd.  If you're going to leave the tough and step up to the bar please bring your wallet with you!

I write as an honorary member of the United SESDIC Order of North America and Hawaii.  I visit this harsh world every once in a while.  It makes me feel cheap and dirty but most of the time the project just doesn't warrant the big bucks that a full time life saving program requires.  And I rarely get angry with those people that have different standards than I do.  I often envy them.

Casey

Oh, I didn't say that every business - or even any business - should or could possibly adhere to the absolutes set out in the definition of "business" in my post. That's also the definition of infinite greed, IMO.

But at the end of the day, that's what it boils down to.

Thank whatever gods there are that for the most part, most people in the business of supporting themselves are honest, hard workers, that give as much as they get.

But the opposite is also true. If there is "business", then there must be someone to consume the products or services...

so...

A Consumer, in a capitalist economy, wants to pay an infinitely small price for an infinitely valuable good or service, every time one is required, forever. Everything else will be a compromise.

That also meets my personal definition for infinite greed.

Neither position is tenable. There must be middle ground for the system to work - persons seen as capable and qualified offer goods or services to consumers that require them, and those consumers are willing to pay a price that is agreeable to both sides, and the capital exchanged and the goods or services provided somehow must add to the general grease that makes a liveable society go smoothly around...

Breweries demonstrate this equation quite well for me. I'm quite willing to pay well for a cold beer on a hot day. But hey, even I have tried to make my own beer from time to time. Sometimes the finished product was quite acceptable. But I can't say as I ever saved any money doing it, or could count on consistent product quality (or volume required on a situational basis, ie. number of hot days/volume of beer in pints = number greater than 2...  ;D). So it dropped into the "hobby" bucket, but it was also a learning experience. Life doesn't get any better...


How does this apply to the situation here? Well, it strikes me that one want the grants, then one would have to pay to play. Even if you don't want to pay the state's installers, then you have already paid for the equipment. That's the consumer side of the equation.
On the business side of the equation, one would have to determine the money to be made from being one's own utility, and/or selling excess back to the utility.

Hi cognos,

QuoteA Consumer, in a capitalist economy, wants to pay an infinitely small price for an infinitely valuable good or service, every time one is required, forever. Everything else will be a compromise.

I just don't agree with your SESDIC assumption on many of levels.  Here are two.

Most of the people I do business with are reasonable and understand that everyone has to make a living and "Pay the Mortgage."

This SESDIC approach is the big hole in the sustainable capitalistic model.  ie:  China produces most of the cheapest PV panels in the world.  Why should anyone purchase the SolarWorld Panels made in Oregon, USA?  (They're often a third more.)  Why should anyone even try to start a solar panel company in the US or Canada or Germany?  This is why hybrid economic systems do best.  China, while adhering to the principles of Communism sucked in the world market.  Throw in some old fashioned Capitalism and look out world.  Of course when they lose their power of enslavement they will have the same challenges we do.  It'll be interesting watching them come from the other side of social equality.

Casey

Hey casey. We are as a world economy only just starting to suffer for our mean spriritedness with regard to buying cheap imported goods in preference to quality home market product. Our rubbish dumps are very quickly filling up with discarded chinese product (motorcycles, stationary clone engines and generators) which simply dont cut the mustard, cant be repaired economicaly, cant get parts for. In life you get pretty much exactly what you pay for and not a drop more. Hence I prefer my old english generators or for moderns - Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki or similar quality. Cheers Boss.

Ha!  ;D

You're not disageeing with my definition at all. Those aren't my definitions. They are simple economic absolutes, without morals. No one could follow either philosophy to the absolute and get anything sold or bought!

You are in fact agreeing with me! The middle ground - success in a capitialist economy - must take in to account laws, societal mores, cultural differences, personal relationships, attachments and comittments, etc. - that makes any transaction acceptable - or even possible. In any good transaction, there is must be an explicit understanding on both sides that the seller has to make enough money to eat - and that the consumer has enough cash left over to buy food... dead sellers and buyers make for a poor economy indeed... ;D

The drive toward less expensive products proves this. A product may be less expensive to produce in a country where labour is less expensive, the environmental or safety legislation is lax, or they use child labour, whatever... something out of one's particular comfort zone that they experience in their local work environment...

If the business that produces their products in this place then returns them to our country for sale, it is up to us - the consumer - to accept this less expensive product because of it's cheap price - but it's also up to us to make an informed  judgement, and decide if it's OK to ignore (and possibly accept) the real reasons of why it's less expensive... and finally, to reward that business for their decisions by making the purchase... that's a societal decision,  not an economic one.

If a person disagrees with the choice of that item for any reason - it's a good thing to be well-enough off economically to be able to pay the price premium, and select a product produced in our own country, or that of a trading partner, that conforms more to our sense of value and fairness. The middle ground. That's where I try to spend most of my money while I can still afford to do so, and where it's still possible to do. (Possible is a key word here... in the US and Canada - the nations that gave birth to radio and television for the masses, and where the great manufacturers once ruled the industry - tried to buy a US-made TV or radio lately?)

Which brings the question of who is more reponsible for the decline of local industry, and locally produced goods - the consumers who lust for more and cheaper goods, no matter where they come from, and ignore societal and environmental, costs... or the former local busineses who have shut the doors on their own local factories and put their neighbors and fellow citizens out of work, and moved their manufactories offshore... in the name of shareholder value?

What this has to do with the original question, I have no idea. But a good group of ideas, in any case, in my opinion... ;D

You all know how I feel about the difference of cheap or frugal.

There 2 types of business. 1. order takers, and 2. service providers, some combine both.

Type 1. Under order takers you have a business that believes that there is a new customer right around the corner. Doesn't provide service and support, bc they know another fool is just waiting to enter the door.

Type 2. Service provider a business that believes it's easier to get repeat business then it is to get new business. Consequently they sell a higher quality product, bc they know it will deliver better customer satisfaction, which equals repeat business.

Our government is responsible for the flood of cheap crap, it has used it as a way to control inflation.

Lloyd

I subscribe to a slightly different take on that...

I believe that it's harder  - but best - to shoot for the long-term customer  - return business, if you will - because any fool can sell one thing to another fool once... Return business gives me a measureable way to judge the correctness of my business decisions...

I don't know if I subscribe to the theory that anyone's 1st world government is to blame - for much of anything, really... I look around my house, and I see a lot of stuff that my parents wouldn't have dreamed of owning, and we got by, quite well and happily, if memory serves... it was my own decision to own these things, and spend my money on them, to cosset myself with these incremental comforts and conveniences, and reward the companies for producing them... for that, I blame no one but myself... I mean, who is it that has convinced us that life is not quite right and we need Prozac to get by if we don't have a giant TV, 2 cars, a pool, or that we need the newest model, or that one must be constantly comparing our lifestyles to some advertiser's idea of an ideal? We've mixed up the meanings. No one knows how to have "enough" any more.

That's one of the attractions of this board to me. Members take recycled 19th century technology and use it to produce electricity for 21st century work. ;D  I've got friends that have no idea how many KWHs they use per month - all they know how to do is bitch about the bill, and carry on without changing a thing. Somehow missing the point... ;D ;D ;D

I believe there are two big problems you're encountering.

One is the rebate scheme was tailored by lobbyists to exclude all but that 1% the occupy wallstreet movement is yalping about these days.

The second is I think you are running into a supply & demand thang. With low volume in NY State installers are withholding certain services as you've discovered. Can we spell 'Monopoly'? If regulations for the last sixty years or so had not been a blatent protection racket for licensed contractors that might even be seen as a flavor of price-fixing.

For contrast shift to South Florida...

"We'll do it all or hold your hand or sit and laugh while you do it, makes no difference to us"  is a direct quote when the largest PV contractors in the State estimated a bid for my brothers house.

When all the options were explained the costs down South were such that it made little sense to do any of the work oneself - let the crews jump the job and have it done in a day or two to take advantage of crews geared up to the high volume of work (thus competition) available in the area.

With modern standards and codes written in stone there is no compelling reason NOT to supervise a DIY installation, that is with the correct Lawyerese contract language written in by the contractors and signed by the homeowner... basically a hold-harmless agreement that if/when something goes wrong its not anyones fault but the homeowner, that warranties and component exchanges are up to the owner, etc..

Remember we usually get what we pay for.

I think of that often from the $90 for 90 minutes plumber that lost (knotted) his fish tape down the sanitary sewer drill pipe on this lot. Turns out there is a main sewer tunnel sixty foot down and by luck of the draw this house sits above it. So, instead of being responsible for pipe change to the center of the street we have sixty foot of vertical 12"-bore-grouted-to-4" pipe AND a thirty-foot drift tunnel to get access to the lip of the canal.. and it all needs to be replaced. Oh, and all the existing material is Haz-mat and needs to be trucked six miles to get out of the system before it can be disposed of. So saving $60 bought us $15,000 worth of work when the City Utility folks had to come hook a chain to the plumbers snake and yank it free (from underground) with their special sewer canal crawling 4X4 pickup. Because the workers were called to this address a failing inspection was filed and it now sits as a lean against the title. None of the other houses were tagged even if theirs were worse off. Yum. Don't be penny smart but pound foolish!