I have a 48V battery bank and a Lister SR2 with a starter hooked to a 12V battery ( no alternator... ) with a contact switch.
I would like to be able to start this generator with a relay and not have it hooked to that 12V battery that doesn't get charged.
Ideas?
My Xantrex SW+ 5548's have generator support but I think I need a module ( $300? ) or maybe I can just come off a pin on the RS232 port and put a relay on?
Thanks!!
-Jedon
Hi Jedon,
I dont know the Xantrex at all, but the module is probably just a auto engine controller with remote start capabilities. The Xantrex sends a signal to it when it needs power.
I would think that any engine controller would work, but you do need one, you cannot just connect the start signal from the inverter to a relay to run the starter, the inverter does not no when the engine is running to stop the starter, that's the job of the engine controller.
Hope this explains it,
dubbleUJay
Nice job WJ.
Jedon, You'll be over $300 building your own unless you're a good scrounger and your time is worth nothing. Or you want a hobby project.
If the Xantrex unit will do the job, go for it.
Would I hook the GSM right to the starter? Wouldn't think it could take the amps.
I guess going from 48V to 12V is too hard/expensive and I should just put a battery charger on a 12V battery to start the generator?
Its going to be cheaper to go the 12V battery route, I suspect, but you may be able to find a buck converter to get your 48V down to 12V. Measure your starters peak current first.
Here's one: DCDC10032-12, http://www.zahninc.com/sd11.html The 32amps output may not me sufficient, check your starter.
Perhaps some googling will find something suitable.
Bruce
Jedon,
Not sure if this is what you need, but take a look.
This is a diesel generator start controller for under $200.
I picked up two of these for my projects.
The unit runs on 12 volts and sense 120vac from the generator so that it knows when the unit has started.
Also has contacts to drive a solenoid and kill the fuel rack if a shutdown is required.
Drawings and manual are available on this page...
http://www.mtspowerproducts.com/html/mcp_products/engine_controls/ECU-04.html (http://www.mtspowerproducts.com/html/mcp_products/engine_controls/ECU-04.html)
Cheers,
Veggie
Great product find, Veggie. This could be a big help for some folks.
I could even use it for my air start system. The only thing lacking is engine monitoring/emergency shut down.
Bruce
Bruce,
I had the same thing in mind for my air start system.
Have the module open an air solenoid when it gets a START signal.
Once the module senses 120vac, it opens the solenoid circuit and the air motor retracts.
Veggie
The outputs are rated well above the solenoid currents (1 amp for small volume solenoids, 2 or 3 for the large flow types needed for the starter motor), so that should not be a problem.
On my air start system the starter is stopped as soon as engine rpm starts to climb above a certain point. I don't know about waiting until 120VAC shows up. The ramp up of rpm on my 6/1 is fairly poky.
For anyone who wants it, you can have the Picaxe basic code for my engine controller/monitor. A Picaxe chip with logic level gate mosfets will do the job.
If you need help modifying it for your use, within reason I will help.
The bottom of page 7 and top of page 8 is the start routine.
Got a reply from Xantrex:
Dear Jedon Thompson,
The GSM and ALM which are identical and were used with the SW Plus have been discontinued and are no longer available.
The XW AGS will not work with a SW plus.
Regards,
Xantrex Technical Support
Customer Service Operations
Xantrex Technology Inc.
Email: customerservice@xantrex.com
Website: www.xantrex.com
t: (360) 925-5097 / (800) 670-0707
f: (360) 435-2636
Could you not use 12v directly tapped off the 48v bank for starter service? This is such an intermittent load that the imbalance would not be noticeable. Unless your battery bank is located far away then the cable length would be an issue.
I have installed a GM 10SI alternator driven from the 900 rpm camshaft extension, 7-8 inches diameter will get you the 2000 rpm minimum cut in speed you need and keep your SLI battery topped up. Fairly easy project, and the start battery, pulley and belt will be less than $300
Tim
The battery bank is about 16 inches away from the SR2, how would I wire that up? Just come off two 6V?
Exactly! I assume the 48v battery bank is now isolated from the engine and fed from a charger ?
Earth the negative post of the negative end of the 48v bank to the engine frame, and take 12 volts off the positive post of your second 6 volt battery. If you have Golf cart batteries they will have enough power to crank your engine all day.
Some older golf carts and electric utility trucks like the Cushman Turf Truckster used to use a speed controller that used 3 steps; 12v, 24v, 36v for full power. It was just a big 400 amp wiper switch. They tapped off the battery pairs to get the voltage for the speed they needed. This caused problems for the batteries over time due to unequal load and they had to be rotated to compensate. In your case the intermittent start service is such a negligible load that there will be no ill effects.
Tim
Jedon, this seems all good and well, but 1st I suggest you just hook it up temporary and see what your inverter does when you crank the engine and it sees a voltage drop from its batteries for a few seconds ??? Maybe nothing!
As Tim was saying, the A/H depletion on those two cells shouldn't be a problem, but if it was me I'll still look for a pair of 12V automotive batteries with a trickle charger to use as a control battery source for things like starting and electronic/electrical controller stuff you might have or get in the future IMHO.
It takes one "cell" in a battery array to stuff up the whole lot I believe.
One other thing, I don't know your inverter, but your negative supply from the battery is not floating on the inverter side, but also connected to "earth" I hope?
I'm just afraid for a potential difference between the engine frame and the inverter chassis!
I think Tim can help out here if he knows the equipment?
I have 16 Trojan L16H batteries so the amp drain should be not noticed I imagine.
The inverters are 2 Xantrex SW+ 5548's, the positive and negatives are hooked into the inverter through a DC breaker, the inverters are grounded and the AC is grounded at the house.
I have a car battery hooked to a 10A manual charger which is probably too much juice, I run the SR2 about 5 hours a day. Every couple of days I use the charger to charge up other batteries instead. I'll keep an eye out for a better charger that will do 2A auto and just keep it plugged into the generator output, that should work.
I still don't know how to set up the relay to start it remotely though, I have a board that will trigger a standard 12V car relay and I have a handful of relays but the switch looks like a simple contact switch so handles a ton of amps which I'm sure the car relays won't handle and high amperage relays are $?
Automotive starter relays are out there and not that expensive. Or use a solid state DC relay, or make one with a MOSFET.
About drawing from a 12V battery which is part of a bigger series string...if the batteries are each charged separately with a 12V charger, sure, that's fine.
But if two or more 12V batteries are charged in series on a single charger, and you imbalance the batteries by discharging one more than another, the batteries will be ruined fairly soon.
Quote from: Jedon on December 10, 2009, 12:11:54 PM
I have 16 Trojan L16H batteries so the amp drain should be not noticed I imagine.
I should have read the thread better, sorry. You have a 12V starter, I was thinking 24V, but it doesn't matter. 8x Trojan's in series for 48V and 2 of these banks if you have 16 of them?
If that's correct, you want to use 2 of the 8 in 1 of the banks to start the engine so you'll be using a 1/4 of the battery bank for starting.
I dont know your starter, but say it draws 40A for those couple of seconds to start, surely there would be a voltage drop over those 2 batteries for that few seconds and the Xantrex should notice it unless it has some type of delay in the monitoring of the bank? It might try to switch on the charger or solar or what ever to try and charge the bank in that short time period. That's what I was trying to explain.
Quote
The inverters are 2 Xantrex SW+ 5548's, the positive and negatives are hooked into the inverter through a DC breaker, the inverters are grounded and the AC is grounded at the house.
Can you check with a meter if there is a connection between your batter negative and the AC ground wire? Or the metal chassis of the inverter for that matter.
Quote
I have a car battery hooked to a 10A manual charger which is probably too much juice, I run the SR2 about 5 hours a day. Every couple of days I use the charger to charge up other batteries instead. I'll keep an eye out for a better charger that will do 2A auto and just keep it plugged into the generator output, that should work.
This should be fine for a controller battery, I thought you might need two for 24V starter, but this makes it even easier! ;)
Quote
I still don't know how to set up the relay to start it remotely though, I have a board that will trigger a standard 12V car relay and I have a handful of relays but the switch looks like a simple contact switch so handles a ton of amps which I'm sure the car relays won't handle and high amperage relays are $?
I've got a SR2 (LR2)?? manual somewhere that shows electrical connections of the engine when used in a auto-start generator application. I'll see if I can find it.
The thing is you need to know when the engine is running so that the starter can be automatically disengaged.
The manual showed some switches and solenoid purposely made for the application. Does your engine have something like that on it?
FYI the old Mini's and some Ford Escort's had the starting solenoid separate from the starter motor, mounted on the wall inside the engine compartment, those would definitely take the current.
I'm kind of liking the idea of keeping my battery bank out of the equation, doesn't seem worth the risk or hassle.
This work? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-STARTER-RELAY-SOLENOID-SWITCH-JOHN-DEERE-KOHLER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4ce96b904fQQitemZ330333655119QQptZMotorsQ5fATVQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_1666wt_939
QuoteDoes your engine have something like that on it?
No, just one big metal push and hold button.
QuoteCan you check with a meter if there is a connection between your batter negative and the AC ground wire? Or the metal chassis of the inverter for that matter.
The inverter and batteries etc are in a shed 180ft from the house where the AC is grounded. 3 wires go from the shed to the house, the 2 hots and a neutral. The breaker panel at the house is grounded into the foundation, forget what they call it, big copper wire wrapped around the rebar. The inverter chassis is grounded at the shed to a 1/4" copper rod sunk a few feet into the ground. The inverter is not grounded.
QuoteIt might try to switch on the charger or solar or what ever to try and charge the bank in that short time period.
The solar panels are hooked directly to the battery bank, not even a charge controller involved ( yet ). The panels are 65 and 69V but the battery bank brings down the voltage, not super efficient but I don't even have the panels mounted yet, they are just leaning against the shed so far, I had to go clear the snow off of them :-D
That solenoid on eB@y will work, it the same type of thing I was talking about for the Mini&Fords. It effectively do the job of what your start button is doing now, but if your down by the house were you want to start it from, how would you know when to release it when the engine fires? That's what I mean with some type of sensing contact to disengage the starter.
The Earth Pegs have different names, here we call them Earth or Ground Stakes, anyway, they all do the same job ;)
With your description I still don't know if your battery negative is grounded, like in a car to the body.
By switching on the solar and stuff by the inverter, I meant also your build in battery charger of the inverter if it has one?
Its just better and simpler to have a separate battery IMHO and I think you see that now.
I'll look for the manual quickly and post the diagram I spoke about earlier (if your still online)
Jedon, here are two pictures that I found in two of the manuals, the one's from SRM engine, but its just the marine version.
I could not find pictures of the actual parts, just the fuel cut-off solenoid.
This is just to get an idea of how Lister did it, you can make most of the things.
i don't know what engine you are using, but
if it has a real oil pump, you can put in a pressure switch and use it to break the circuit to the starter relay
basically you initiate a start, and the engine will crank until the oil pressure comes up, at which time the engine
should be running.
the use of an orifice fitting to restrict the oil flow to the point that it slows the switch cutoff might be needed to
get the engine running before oil pressure is sensed and the circuit is interrupted.
an oil pressure interrupt in the starter circuit is a good thing in any event keeping a fault from engaging the starter
while the engine is running.
there are ford type starter relays that have isolated field coils, unlike the true ford type where one of the small terminals
is for the start circuit and the other is for the energization of the ignition coil, the alternative relay has two small terminals
one is for the start circuit and the other is the ground side of the relay coil,
the ford type finds its ground through the mount bracket.
bob g
Starter draw is closer to 200a than 40a. Still negligible to those batteries. They won't mind at all. Rotate out the start pair once a year if you are worried. We are not talking a lot of amp/hrs here. 200amps for 10 seconds is bugger all to your house battery set.
If you insist on remote start capabilities a remote oil pressure sensor should give you a low tech way to figure out when to take your finger off the start button. Or even an exhaust flapper actuated microswitch, if you can figure out how to weather proof it.
There's really nothing wrong with just trudging out there to check the oil and flip the decompressors by hand once a day. KISS is king. It's British--- you gotta keep an eye on the oil leaks anyway.
Regards,
Tim
Just for reference, Lister usually used a micro-switch connected to the governor linkage to sense when the engine is running.
Right, Tim, with L16s and regular equalization, I'm sure you could get away with that. I didn't check the size of bank Jedon was using.
Many folks are so bad about battery care that it still could make a bad situation worse, and it is technically a bad solution. (Drawing a load from part of a larger series string which is charged in series.) What a knowledgeable guy who knows and takes care of his batteries can get away with is another thing.
The board I am going to use for the remote/auto start can trigger a relay off when it sensor power on another input so I thought I could just hook the AC alternator output to an analog input on the board to sense if it's on?
QuoteJust for reference, Lister usually used a micro-switch connected to the governor linkage to sense when the engine is running.
Governor linkage, I don't really see where that would work on an SR2? Unlike the 6/1 I can't see anything moving or changing when the engine is running on the SR2.
QuoteIf you insist on remote start capabilities a remote oil pressure sensor
Oil pressure would probably be a good sensor to have anyway. One reason I would like a way to auto start it is so that the inverters can start the generator if the batteries get too low, this is not something I would rely on normally, it's for emergency situations. All our communications require power so I would not like the situation where I am gone, my wife gets hurt and the power runs out and there is no way for her to call for help. I tired putting a UPS on the comm equipment but the UPS likes neither the inverter power nor the generator power, I'll have to find the manual and see if I can set the tolerances lower.
QuoteStarter draw is closer to 200a than 40a
Jedon, AC voltage, perhaps with a dropping resistor, to an AC coil relay as a start signal might work, but you'll have to run a test to find out. It might take too long for the AVR to kick in, or some other issue.
It might work, and couldn't get any simpler; the AC relay could be a normally closed SPST, and when it opens from AC power being present, it could open the power to the starter relay coil.
QuoteTW, there is currently a seller on ebay with some variable reluctance sensors
I'm quite often variably reluctant :-)
Quotefor example, let's say your belt breaks or comes off
It's direct drive, no belt but point taken. Plus I may want to adopt something like this for the 6/1 in the future.
QuoteAC voltage, perhaps with a dropping resistor, to an AC coil relay as a start signal might work,
The guys who make my board say they have done this before so I guess it would work at least under some circumstances.
Here is the start controller I plan to use on my Perkins 402 project. I haven't bought it yet because I'm not that far along.
http://gencontrol.co.uk/index.html (http://gencontrol.co.uk/index.html)
You can order it with custom parameters.
http://gencontrol.co.uk/Generator%20Control%20Module%20Creator%20for%20advanced%20engineers.html (http://gencontrol.co.uk/Generator%20Control%20Module%20Creator%20for%20advanced%20engineers.html)
The the price is right too at £60-£70 depending on the model (about $98-$114 currently). Some options like the battery voltage monitor drive the cost up a bit.
If anyone here has used one of these I'd be interested in their opinion of it.
Nice find, JasonCarter!
Looking at their specifications, these seem quite capable, and fault conditions are monitored, so it would be a complete engine controller. The price is right, too.
There are some hitches if being applied to a Lister(oid) CS;
For an oil pressure-less Lister(oid), the oil pressure signal could be faked via Cherry gear tooth sensor (hall effect type with exciting magnet in unit) on spokes or inductive pickup, and some analog signal manipulation. Since Jens is going that way, perhaps he'll share his completed circuit when he's done.
Some extra embedded processor control would be need for startup and shutdown, to operate SOM- like decompression/rack closing. When the start signal is active, the rack would be closed and decompression engaged before cranking, and decompression and rack released at an appropriate speed, so that the controller didn't have to know about it.
A far better solution would be to get the manufacturer to do some custom code to handle rack/decompression. The "custom" parameters they offer won't do the job.
Jens, what is the voltage range you will be using?
Hey All,
For an engine run sensor I have thought of using the LED/LED as a sort of opto isolator like old floppy drives/VCR's used. Heck one might be able to salvage those easy enough. When a blocking material came between the two it triggers a signal or stops one.
On the end of the exhaust pipe a flapper with a backside extension would open/block the signal when the engine was running. A simple delay chip could be used to make sure pulses from start cranking weren't enough to activate things.
If this was hooked into the starter system it would lock out the starter when it sensed a run condition.
Am I not seeing something?
RS
RS,
The only real problem with optical sensors is dirt.
Industrial sensors tend to use some optics to spread the beam out so that a single smudge somewhere doesn't shut down the whole process.
This adds to the expense and package size to the point where it's a whole lot easier to use something else.
Little reed switches or Hall effect sensors with a magnet are a lot more robust and will likely give fewer problems.
Given how my engine room looks most of the time, I don't use optical sensors.
Daryl
I agree, optical on an exhaust stack, outdoors would not be my favorite solution. Like Daryl, I'd use hall effect or an inductive sensor so that dirt is a non-issue.
Good thinking guys! I never thought of the crud issue.
RS