Well the 8/1 has a 4 hp air starter now, beats the hell out of cranking, it won't crank against compression though.
The plumbing needs to be a little more elegant but it works for now.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/fabricator01/th_MOV01395.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/fabricator01/?action=view¤t=MOV01395.mp4)
Cool!
Is that a Gast 4am air motor?
I'm not sure what it is, I got it from a local industrial surplus outfit, he had a skid of em and said they were all 4 hp, if it's not a gast it's almost an exact copy, it's all cast iron, heavy as hell.
Looks cool. Too bad it won't push through compression... Did you need it to or are you going to automate the compression release?
I think I'm gonna automate the compression release and the fuel lever, sooner or later I'm gonna have a Xantrex 4024 inverter and I want it to be able to start the roid when the batteries drop to a preset level.
I think I'm gonna try a surge tank next, like a 20-30 gallon tank close to the engine, right now the air in the lines coming from the compressor is the surge volume, maybe if I have a larger volume right next to the motor it may be enough to turn it over without decompressing.
I don't think it is going to do it. I put a 4hp air motor on my listeroid several years ago and I have a 50 gallon main tank plumed to a 30 gallon tank with 1" pipe very close to the air motor and it still won't get it over compression.
Carl
Well that experiment was easy............for me ;D
How about " gearing down " to a smaller wheel on the air motor ?
I thought some other member was able to 'crank through' compression with his air starter.
Well, I started with a 5" caster wheel and it pretty much wouldn't even turn it over, I know it can be done because of this on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXc6RgXTKrI He is not decompressing but he has a LOT of stuff in that air system that I have no idea what it is.
Strike that! I just noticed he is decompressing! I watched that video about six times and never noticed that before. ::)
That guy sure went whole hog. He has other youtube videos, one of which even has a genuine Listeroid engineer from Rajkot demonstrating how the air-starter works! :)
I think his air start system sorta kinda borders on OCD ::) If anything ever happens to the guy, no one will ever figure out the plumbing if something should go awry.
Ron
Nice job,
I used the same air motor.
Works great, but the decompression must be used.
Spin it up to speed, swing the decompression lever, and let the flywheels do all the work.
veggie
Will it go through compression with a run at it? I went the 12 volt route and found if I roll the flywheel backwards and give it a run at it there is no problem. I did find out if it is outside a little water on the flywheels will cause excessive slippage.
12 volt starter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QmWXNo-Gmg&feature=channel
Quote from: vdubnut62 on October 11, 2011, 12:28:57 PM
I think his air start system sorta kinda borders on OCD ::) If anything ever happens to the guy, no one will ever figure out the plumbing if something should go awry.
Ron
That is pretty much what I thought, there seems to be two surge tanks, lots of copper tubing and some kind of horrendously complicated valve, which he seems to pull a popsicle stick or something out of after it starts.
Quote from: XYZER on October 11, 2011, 03:53:24 PM
Will it go through compression with a run at it? I went the 12 volt route and found if I roll the flywheel backwards and give it a run at it there is no problem. I did find out if it is outside a little water on the flywheels will cause excessive slippage.
12 volt starter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QmWXNo-Gmg&feature=channel
Nope, if I turn it all the way back up against compression then hit it it just stops, it just don't get up enough speed in that partial revolution.
What stood out to me is the rubber wheel size is so much smaller on this last video "Listeroid take 2 starter.AVI".
Casey
Quote from: LowGear on October 12, 2011, 01:26:13 AM
What stood out to me is the rubber wheel size is so much smaller on this last video "Listeroid take 2 starter.AVI".
Casey
The rubber wheel on the 12volt starter is from McMaster Carr. The starter has the power to push it through I believe but the rubber wheel will smoke when it hits the compression. Or I need more presure pushing on the starter....
What about a urethane rubber wheel? My experience has been better grip and they don't "self lubricate" when they do lose grip.
Maybe a cheap roller skate tire/wheel?
I used to work for a torque converter rebuilder that used urethane tires on the forklifts that ran in oil on concrete floors. Messy!
Ron
You might have a look at McMaster Carr #2474K103. http://www.mcmaster.com/#drive-wheels/=egmu5e (http://www.mcmaster.com/#drive-wheels/=egmu5e)
I picked up one a while ago after trying the hockey puck which was too hard/too slippery against the flywheel, and adapted it to my Gast 4AM, and then to the shaft of a Toyota Camry electric starter that I think will be the one I go with for starting Old Silver. It's made from softer rubber, so shouldn't need as much pressure against the flywheel to achieve traction. With the hard hockey puck I found I was having to press it so hard against the flywheel to prevent it from slipping, the pressure was causing a lot of drag on the bearings in the Gast, robbing it of torque. I've run it several times just holding it against the flywheel and it has good grip with no tendency to burnout.
Just received a Grizzly G0463 mill so can now proceed to make the rest of the apparatus (this is turning out to be an expensive project! ;)). I plan to use pneumatic cylinders to activate the decompressor lever and fuel rack safety (it will be held closed by a spring; air pressure will retract against the spring). Loss of air pressure will push in the fuel rack.
Though I have two Gast 4AM motors, I think the Toyota starter is a better solution especially on cold mornings when you're going to need all the torque you can muster to overcome viscous oil.
Quinn
I'll be. Is there anything that McMaster-Carr does not carry a special purpose part for?
I never imagined a special drive roller, probably even has a special compound rubber for the job.
I learn something here every day.
Ron :-[
If I decompress the wheel I got works great, so I guess I'm gonna stick with what I got, it's a 3 inch rubber wheel that don't slip at all.
Too bad you can't turn it down to 2.5". I know it only seems like about 16% change but that might just be the extra torque you need. I'm talking through my jean pockets here just so you know my credentials. But if you think that's malarkey then let me forecast a higher speed rotation on your flywheel. I've been shoveling 1/3 mix for the farm much of this morning so my little gray cells are way over charged with oxygen and sugar.
Casey
Oh I can stick it in the lathe and turn it down to 2.5" no problem, and I have several more of these wheels so if it don't work it's no big deal.
Quote from: quinnf on October 12, 2011, 01:25:23 PM
You might have a look at McMaster Carr #2474K103. http://www.mcmaster.com/#drive-wheels/=egmu5e (http://www.mcmaster.com/#drive-wheels/=egmu5e)
.
I followed Quinns research and got the same wheel. Pushing it through compression takes real grunt, air or 12v if you are up against it!
Slow down Fabricator,
Please let some of the more "down to earth and knowledge" people give the 2.5" theory some thought. But if you do try it I'll buy you lunch the next time you're in Kona.
Casey
I am using a soft rubber wheel from Mcmaster carr it is 2.5" in diameter and even if you backup the flywheel before starting it will not get past compression. The air starter just doesn't make enough torque at low rpm and it can't spin up fast enough before hitting the compression stroke. I am feeding my air motor via 1" pipe with a 1' length 1/2" hose and 135psi of air pressure. With my decompression lever engaged it will spin the engine up to as high as 200 rpm but it really isn't necessary. It will start even spinning the engine at 100 rpm before disengaging the compression release.
If automation is the goal then just use a solenoid to disengage the decompression lever when you turn off the air to the air motor. If you let the air motor get the engine up to 150 rpm or so then turn it off the engine will have more than enough stored energy to start when the decompression lever disengages.
If you're going the air route, consider plumbing into the main air line a small pneumatic cylinder to actuate the decompressor. That way you have only one valve to turn and you can keep your hands away from greasy rotating parts which is important if you want to automate or have wife/kid be able to start the engine safely. Air cylinders are ridiculouosly cheap (surpluscenter.com) simple and reliable. Even though I have decided to use the Toyota starter to spin the flywheel I'm still planning to use air for the decompressor and fuel rack shutoffs. I might rig up the Gast 4AM just for grins and because it makes such a great sound, but for reliable delivery of torque when you need it most, it's hard to beat an electric starter of some sort, especially if you know you're going to need 12V for the glow plug, control system, emergency light in genny shed, etc.
Quinn
Quote from: LowGear on October 12, 2011, 08:46:02 PM
Slow down Fabricator,
Please let some of the more "down to earth and knowledge" people give the 2.5" theory some thought. But if you do try it I'll buy you lunch the next time you're in Kona.
Casey
Too late I already tried it :D you aint in any danger of that free lunch any time soon though ;) As for the experiment, no go for the exact reasons given in the post by Carlb, another reason to add is the fact that the engine is never in the same place when it stops, you might be two degrees from TDC, in that case you got no run at it at all.
I know they use air starters on some on lots of diesel engines including some semi tractors, but I have no idea what kind of setup they have.
Large old style engines, and big Marine engines use an air distribution valve and direct air start to each cylinder via an air start port & valve in the head.
Now medium and high speed diesels use air starters that are just like electric starters. Some use vane type air motors, and some use an air turbine. Some engines use 2 starters that run on the same ring gear.
Over the history of the internal combustion engine, nearly every imaginable starting method has been tried.
My air motor is a vane type.
Gezz I hate being wrong but you'd think I'd get used to it.
Thanks for the good sportsman try.
Casey
Quote from: quinnf on October 13, 2011, 08:48:16 AM
If you're going the air route, consider plumbing into the main air line a small pneumatic cylinder to actuate the decompressor. That way you have only one valve to turn and you can keep your hands away from greasy rotating parts which is important if you want to automate or have wife/kid be able to start the engine safely. Air cylinders are ridiculouosly cheap (surpluscenter.com) simple and reliable. Even though I have decided to use the Toyota starter to spin the flywheel I'm still planning to use air for the decompressor and fuel rack shutoffs. I might rig up the Gast 4AM just for grins and because it makes such a great sound, but for reliable delivery of torque when you need it most, it's hard to beat an electric starter of some sort, especially if you know you're going to need 12V for the glow plug, control system, emergency light in genny shed, etc.
Quinn
The only problem I see with this is the motor shuts off when the air holding open the decompressor does, and the engine must coast thru that first compression to get to fire. So you would have to have a starter that can really spin the engine up. Good handstarting tecnique is to crank up to speed, and pull hard thru that first compression stroke. I think I want my starter to do the same thing...
When I do my automation I intend to use one of these http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/relay-driver With this relay driver you can control four relays and program them to turn on and off depending on what you want your system to do.
Hi Ron,
Yes, I fully agree that I'd like to drop the CR prior to shutting off the power to the starter. Mebbe I'll just do it with separate switches. Trying to keep it simple.
[edit] Actually here's the control panel layout I'm thinking about. I want to keep all the circuits simple with status lights that show what's working and what's not. Trying to avoid relays wherever possible, so using toggle switches, some with guards over them, such as the field flash and generator enable/disable. The idear initially was to mount this inside the house next to the electrical panel and genny transfer panel which is already permitted and wired in, courtesy of a previous owner. Genny is in the groj which is about 50' from the house. So was hoping to remotely start the 'roid as simply as possible with a minimum of circuitry.
Still thinking about the implementation of this system, and it's likely to change before I get to Washington again to finish wiring it up and testing it.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/quinnf_01/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/ControlPanel.jpg)
q.
You might try a rotary switch, like a car ignition switch.
"on" to crank, and turned farther to the traditional "start" position for compression release.
To start, rotate the switch quickly tru to the 'start" position, the compression release will be engaged before the starter can fully engage.
Release the "start" postion on the switch to engine compression, yet still keep cranking. Upon starting, turn the switch "Off".
Just a thought....
Yes, that's the simplest and most straightforward solution, but for some reason I don't like key switches. I mean, the idea of starting an 800 lb engine that puts out only 6 HP and runs slower than my car idles . . . something about the concept of starting such an engine with a key switch just seems, well, wrong. Another scheme involves relays or even the use of a couple of DPDT toggle switches to allow the number of switches to be reduced. At some point, though, the complexity rises above the KISS threshold and the idea of just throwing a jacket on and carrying a flashlight out to the groj (mebbe stepping on a roaming banana slug on the way out and falling on my tailbone) and pushing a START switch while flipping the decompressor manually doesn't seem that bad. But then, I know I can do better. So that's where I'm at.
One scenario I was (note the use of the past tense) thinking about was for everything to be done pneumatically except the starter. As the starter drive wheel presses against the flywheel, a finger protruding from the starter mount pushes a SPST starter switch and energizes the starter solenoid. That should prevent the starter drive wheel doing a burnout on the flywheel. Then I keep thinking a small magnet passing near a reed switch and a relay . . . and I'm off making things more complex again. So much complexity can be avoided by just using another toggle switch. And another pretty indicator light.
The idea will eventually gel. I'm in no hurry. For now the Armstrong starter works well enough.
Quinn
Quinn,
If I read right, you want the control box in the house..
Me thinks relays is the proper solution, they might even make it more efficient.
Lloyd
Agreed. That might be the way this turns out. I'd like to keep everything as simple and as transparent (read: idiot proof) as possible, so I thought discrete switches for each function would be simplest. But once you start thinking through what can go wrong when the wrong switch is pushed at the wrong time like disconnecting the generator while it's loaded, and relays, or even the programmable relay control that Fabricator mentioned, makes sense. I was contemplating having engine overtemp, overspeed, undervoltage, etc. protections wired into the solenoid that controls the main air valve. If anything goes wrong, the genny relay disconnects, the air system depressurizes and springs that were held back by the pneumatic cylinders would then close the rack, fuel valve and decompressor shutting the engine off.
q.
Check this relay driver out it is programmable for almost any situation. http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/relay-driver