Micro CoGen.

Alternators and Generators => Automotive alternators => Topic started by: mobile_bob on October 06, 2011, 04:23:33 PM

Title: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: mobile_bob on October 06, 2011, 04:23:33 PM
seems to be interest again with charging 48volt banks

i have a question i would like to pose to those so interested

"how many amps would you like to have available to charge with?"

it would appear that 40-45amps is about what most folks have capability of,

would a unit that can do 75-85amps be of interest?

the reason i am asking, i have something like 50 or 60 leece neville alternators that i can setup for 48volt charging
(capable of anything up to 62volts or more if needed, although all testing will be done at 57.6volts dc)

its going to be a while before i can get to building these up, i am about half way through the unpacking, sorting, building and loading
all my crap on shelves in the new shop.  it is a long process that i want done right so i don't have to do it again later.

bob g
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: d34 on October 06, 2011, 04:56:39 PM
I have interest in the units.  I could possibly use more than one. 
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: mbryner on October 06, 2011, 05:40:49 PM
if you build it, they will come.....

Yes, I'd be interested.   But they wouldn't have a charge controller, right?  My 6/1 wouldn't do more than 40 amps right now w/ thermosiphon, but it would be nice to have greater capability.
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: Tom Reed on October 06, 2011, 06:28:39 PM
I'd be interested in as many amps as could be gotten out of a flogged, wound out, 6/1 roid.
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: mike90045 on October 06, 2011, 07:04:57 PM
Depending on price, I need something to charge a 825ah NiFe bank I'm installing next week.  Planning on solar (in the winter - ha) or the 6/1 driving the 240v ST head, into the XW6048 .98 PF charger.  But another source is not a bad thing to have.
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: BioHazard on October 07, 2011, 04:04:26 AM
I think I could probably use one funds permitting....
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: Shipo on October 07, 2011, 08:48:06 AM


I'd be interested in a 24v (28)....in case you have one for sale...
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: ihavelotsoftoys on December 07, 2011, 03:29:10 PM
I would be interested in one also.  I won't be running a lister but I do have an arrowboard engine with deep sump.  Got lots of biodiesel to feed it.
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: Jedon on December 07, 2011, 03:31:12 PM
Sounds easier than transforming down and rectifying my st-5 output? Interest depends on price as usual :-)
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: veggie on December 07, 2011, 07:51:20 PM
Bob,

Please give us a price and a time frame. If you can provide in 24 (27) volts, I too would be interested.

veggie
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: yellowhead on December 14, 2011, 03:24:16 PM
I would be interested as well. Out of curiosity which Leece Neville alternator is this based on?

Simon.
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: electronlabs on August 30, 2012, 12:52:17 PM
Do you still have these units available?  I may need a few if the price is right.
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: Mad_Labs on October 11, 2012, 09:28:32 AM
Hey Bob,

I'd love one, or even just a stator rewound. I can deal with diodes, controller etc. I just emailed ya this AM from the Fieldlines forum becuase I had lost my login here.

Jonathan
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: Lloyd on October 11, 2012, 07:23:53 PM
for all of you interested in running a 48 volt alternator at 48 volt native, Balmar now makes an MC6-48 regulator, and it even has Li-ion charge capabilities. It's the same regulator as the MC6-24, with some software tweeks, it's a true 48v remote sense. 3 stage regulator.

Lloyd
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: mobile_bob on October 11, 2012, 11:07:28 PM
who is selling the balmar mc48?

bob g
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: Lloyd on October 12, 2012, 01:48:05 AM
Quote from: mobile_bob on October 11, 2012, 11:07:28 PM
who is selling the balmar mc48?

bob g

balamr,

If ya need a part # let me know,  I just had em build me 2 X's MC32v regs based on the same, they can do 24,32,36, & 48 native from the same reg/w software changes.

Lloyd
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: bentcrafter on October 12, 2012, 08:19:12 AM
Quote from: Lloyd on October 12, 2012, 01:48:05 AM
balamr,

If ya need a part # let me know,  I just had em build me 2 X's MC32v regs based on the same, they can do 24,32,36, & 48 native from the same reg/w software changes.

Lloyd
Regs I got.... so where are the 'efficient' high amp rectifiers? In 2 months keyboarding, I unearthed only one that I could actually buy, and it's only a 50 amp. Just yesterday, I put in an order for two GMM3x120-0075X2-SMD modules the vendor advertised as "in stock". Not 2 hours later, I received the following;

"Im sorry, but we don't have this parts available at stock or with any short lead time now, seems like it's a rare thing at our market. please feel free to contact me on any questions. Maybe you need something else to quote?"
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: mobile_bob on October 12, 2012, 09:34:54 AM
not sure why the interest in a high efficiency rectifier?

at 48volts nominal, the voltage drop comprises about 1/4 the loss of a 12 volt nominal system, as it relates to the diodes.

its very unlikely that you will find a high efficiency rectifier that will reduce this to half of that, or 1/8th that of a 12volt system.

you rapidly reach the point of diminished returns.

i think you will find your choice of alternator will have a much larger impact on the overall efficiency of the system, just as your choice of prime mover.

another consideration is cost and reliability
a high efficiency rectifier is likely to be priced substantially higher than the replacement diodes i listed earlier, and i would also be concerned with reliability.

diodes can and will fail,

i would be very concerned with the "load dump" capability of any rectifier i planned on using.

just a thought?

what are you goals?

bob g
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: bentcrafter on October 12, 2012, 11:34:06 AM
Quote from: mobile_bob on October 12, 2012, 09:34:54 AM
not sure why the interest in a high efficiency rectifier?

(http://i47.tinypic.com/m7q7i1.jpg)
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: mobile_bob on October 12, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
how about a little more data

what alternator does the chart relate to?

what operating voltage nominal and at load?


also not the increase in efficiency between the first column and the second
column..

the third column really does not illustrate the change in rectifier alone, it also takes
into account the replacement of the field with neo magnets and the reduction of stator resistance, both of which are the factors responsible for the increase in efficiency.

so naturally i want to see more info so i can get my head wrapped around this one.

also in the first column the rectifier loss is about 100 watts more than the mosfet
rectifier of the second column. shaving that 100watts off the rectifier by going to a mosfet while useful is probably going to be a costly cut in losses.

what i mean is this, that 100watts comprises 1/4 of the efficiency effect at 48volts as it would at 12 volts

for instance a 12 volt @100amp alternator with a 100 watt diode loss would work out to be 12 x 100=1200watts -100 watts = 1100 watts  or 1100/1200= 91.6% or an effective loss 8.4% attributed to the diodes

on the other hand 48volt@100 amps with the same 100watt diode loss would work out to be 48 x 100 = 4800watts - 100 watts = 4700watts or 4700/4800= 97.9% or an effective loss of just 2.1%

of course the number shift a bit due to actual charging voltages, but you get the idea.

don't get me wrong i am all about finding even fractions of a percent in efficiency gains, so long as the price is not prohibitive and there are no reliability issues.

so in recap
what alternator is the chart related to?
what voltage are they working at?  and at load?

thanks
bob g
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: mobile_bob on October 12, 2012, 01:08:25 PM
it would appear the alternator in question is a 12volt nominal unit
probably tested at about 14.6-14.8vdc at load

bob g
Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: BruceM on October 12, 2012, 02:59:37 PM
I would think that switching to Schotky diodes for a 12V alternator could reduce the loss by at least half.  Less robust, but so is synchronous rectification.  So even at 12V what you are looking at is largely marketing hype.

As mobile_bob point out the losses shown are for 12V, and are bogus for 48V.  But the losses do point out the inherent inefficiency of low voltage systems.  In most power electronics designs, you rarely see synchronous rectification used except for 6 volts and below, because with schotky diodes, it just isn't worth the complexity until you get that low.

The integrated rectifier/charge regulator Brentcraft found seems a good choice, since there is no reliability penalty for the low side Mosfets; they are both regulating and providing "half synchronous" rectification by eliminating the low side diodes. But at 40 amps it alas isn't rated high enough current for many 48V charging apps.

Of course, I say why stop at 48V, Edison had it right at 120VDC as a good compromise for safety and being able to run power about without using tons of copper. At 120VDC, your diode loss should be significantly less than 1/10th, as diode bridge voltage drop is reduced at the lower currents. 

Title: Re: for those with 48volt systems
Post by: mobile_bob on October 13, 2012, 02:12:04 PM
Bentcrafter

that chart has been haunting me, somewhere in the back of my mind
i couldn't get past the idea that i had seen it somewhere before.

been laid up with the flu for 4 days now, and it finally popped back into my head

i have seen this chart somewhere before, but can't remember where!



bob g