Micro CoGen.

Hi fellas-

My first post as I just found the forum. Lots of like minded folks here I see. Looks like a pretty cool place.

I've read through a few of the threads here on DC Alternator charging. I think some of the theories here may be over complicating the setup. I use a much simpler and less costly way to build DC Alternator direct to battery bank charging systems, and have for many years.

DC amps are amps, just like watts are watts. Why lock yourself into a voltage by using a regulator?  It doesn't matter if you have your inverter configured with batteries wired for 12VAC, 24VAC, or 48VAC if you drop the regulator and manually set your system performance by pulley ratio, throttle for motor rpm/load, and field load for your needs. This way you can use a (non regulated) alternator and engine, and adjust it for peak efficiency.

We've been off grid and living remotely for over 12 years. I have 2 systems- one trace SW400024v inverter w/12 L16's in the house with 1kw of PV panels, and one Outback 3500 watt inverter in 24VAC as well w/12 L16's in the shop. All systems are monitored with a Trimetric.

I have a fully equipped machine shop that I built and outfitted with manual machines- (3) lathes and Bridgeport mill with all the supporting equipment and bench power tools, as well as 2 CNC Hardinge lathes and a CNC Cat40 mill. I manufacture and market my own product designs.

The house system runs everything in the house including dishwasher, clothes washer, flat screen TV computers, microwave, and every kitchen appliance known to woman. It also runs all of my manual machines in the shop. The shop Outback system is dedicated specifically for my CNC machines.

I rely on stock, Delco alternators with no internal regulator, (no external regulator either...NONE) for both backup and continuos direct to battery bank DC charging and have for over 12 years.  I simply wire up a HEAVY variable load resistor to the field with on/off switch, amp meter, and heavy DC positive main inline fuse. This way you can fine tune your sheave pulley ratio to turn your alt at the best speed for cooling, your engine throttle for optimum fuel consumption and load/speed for wear and longevity, and peak optimum amp draw load from your alt to give you the max amps you need and maximum life from your alternator.

I size these components to the old Delco. I've gotten as long as 8 years out of a single alt. I've ran different engines and horspowers over the years, and will be machining some aluminum serpentine belt sheave pulleys for these setups, and start doing tests for fuel consumption, amp output and engine/alt longevity with rpm ratio tests, etc. to get the absolute optimum results down on paper, beyond my own feel and experience of what works well. 

For me direct to DC has been a cost effective, inexpensive, and easy off grid generator to keep running. Something that is crucial and extremely important for living in the outback, not to mention running a business that relies on machines.

Another observation when running machines with a large AC generator with inverter charging... any startup surge really is noticeable, even running my big 10KW ac generator and Trace SW4000 inverter. Running the DC alternator direct to the battery bank can handle pure surge power effortlessly.

I never saw the need to run a big AC generators, that start out with DC, then convert back to AC to be sent to your system inverter, that intern converts it back to DC for the battery bank.  I believe it's harder on the inverter as due to heat as well. I've gotten a solid 10 years out of my first Trojan L16s, and I'm still using that set in the shop.

If you have to have an AC source directly off a generator then that's the way to go, but if you can run a battery bank and inverter, nothing beats direct DC battery bank charging IMO, and nothing beats the cost of running DC generators continuously day in and day out for years on end.

The proof is in the pudding.

Casey

Pat,

Can you post some photos on your setup?

OGPat:

always nice to see new folks come on board, welcome.

now to the meat and taters of the topic...

you realize of course that your delco alternator starts out making AC current and uses those rectifiers to make the power DC for battery charging, basically the same thing that some folks do by rectifying their ST heads AC current to DC for battery charging.

all generators are alternators, every one of them, they all produce AC current and either use diodes (rectifiers to convert to DC) or,
they use commutators to mechanically rectify/convert to DC the AC current generated.

while you have a system that works for you, it would appear you either have a good match or you like to baby sit the charging regime?

no system that incorporates a single reostat as the soul control handle in lieu of a proper regulator can ever come close to matching the efficiency of a purpose built regulator in efficiency, lifespan, or fuel consumption. this is not to say that such a system has no place in offgrid
because certainly it does, its just not the best solution for the vast majority of folks, and certainly has no place in a multifuction cogenerator save for a back up/fail safe/if all else fails patch to get you through till parts can be procured.

the most efficient charging regime for a flooded lead acid battery and most AGM types is the 50/80 regime, in order to optimize a charging system to fully take advantage of the regime one must have in most cases at least a couple hundred amps of charging capability. such high current systems should never be controlled by a simple reostat system unless the operator is available to closely monitor the charging from start to finish, and is able to temperature compensate the charge rate. failing to be able to do at least those two things is inviting a severely over charged battery, overheating, and shortened lifespans, or worse.

you don't mention the amount of time you run your system or what frequency you do so?  do you recharge daily? how many hours per run? how many amps? what voltage? what set points for what range of ambient temperatures do you use? what equalization schedule and voltage?

i suspect you run something less than a hundred amp unit, or rather something less than about half its max output?  and you run a significant amount of hours for each charge? probably twice what you would have to run should you choose to use one of several 3 stage controllers that have temp compensation, alternator temp sensing, and a plethora of other nice things like an amp manager to allow you to tailor the alternators output to the available power driving it.

some of us have other thing running off the engine such as refer compressors, AC 120/240, air compressors, and all manner of other stuff
where the loads are very variable and are switched in and out at random, all of which would make the use of anything other than a 3stage
controller an exercise in futility.

don't get me wrong here, i am not saying your system is without merit, quite the contrary really, every offgrid installation should have a simple system that is reostat controlled, however...

it should not be the main system for anything other than either a very small infrequently used system, or one that is single purpose and where the owner has the time and inclination to be the "regulator" (read that babysitter), or in exceedingly rare installations where the ambient temperature is very close to 77 degree's F and everything else is very well matched.

fwiw

bob g

I don't know where to begin with what you write accept those are very well crafted words, but for the most part are baseless in my experience, and for my requirements.

I've charged this way almost daily for over 12 years now. My first 12 bank of L16's lasted 10 years before a noticeable slip, and without optimum care I might add, and are still serving duty between a running DC charger and my CNC shop machines.

Yes, I have run over 100 amps (24v amps) and can and do if I wish to, and no there is no baby sitting involved. I do let my solar panels float charge the remaining top end of the system on sunny days. Cloudy days why worry about it?  It's not that critical. Far less than the conventional wisdom would have you believe. I do only fuel up for as much run time that's needed if I have to leave, or I get busy.

Now I do agree that if you are running an ST gen head with compressor in addition to a DC alt then you would want to automate your load with a regulator, so you could balance out the loads on your engine for your systems needs, but I'm just talking about an inexpensive, dependable, efficient, long lasting setup that can be repaired for peanuts and can be "matched", as you mentioned the word and it's a good term to describe the right sized hp engine rpms and load placed on your alt. With an engine that has enough Hp and a drive pulley that can turn your alt fast enough, so it runs cool enough, your matching is a piece of cake with a heavy duty adjustable load in the field. No need for a fancy, expensive, regulator. Or a costly alt wired to a specific voltage.

I know what works proven over time and my pocketbook, by doing it.  I feel for many of the posters I read on the forum here and elsewhere on the net where guys just want to build a DC generator inexpensively, and the gammit of info they get is kinda off the mark. They wind up spending money on expensive alts and regulators that stall out their rigs, or have to be revved up to excite.

My eyes are a little blurry now from resting and watching movies all day here, but I'll get into examples and specifics, and be happy to answer questions.  I don't proclaim to be an expert on the subject, and certainly my goal is not to show disrespect, flame, or demean anyone's opinions.

If a guy can show me how I can save money by running a different DC rig for my needs, I'm all ears and you certainly have my attention.

Off-G-P,

Efficiency is a through-put concept...not just throwing some current at bats. bc you have only intimated to what your actual system is... it's really hard to understand what you think efficiency is.

I have better then a hundred bat banks and alts with Balmar Controllers installed, at least a dozen that are exceeding 10 years. While the Balmar controller is the most expensive controller I know in the market place...I think it's cheap at any price. I don't know of one failure to a Balmar Controller...certainly not in any of the units that I have installed. My own Balmar Controllers 2 of which are 10 years old this year are working happily.

So the math works out like this $270.00 purchase, amortized over 10 years is a mere $27.00 dollars a year. $27.00 dollars divided by 365 and then again by 24 works out to $0.003 cents per hr, I pay my baby sitter for the bat bank. Now that is down right cheap.

Now include the fact the controller monitors the bat, and alt temp, and adjust output accordingly so 1, I don't burn up an alt, and 2, I don't burn up a bank, finally 3, I pour as much current into the bank, as they can take, with the least amount of fuel, and wear and tear on both the alt and the engine driving it...... and the controller is probably as close to free as free gets.

Do you cycle charge?   ...or do you just let the alt run non-stop.... It's been proven time and again that a cycle charge regime is the most efficient way to run a bank, whether it's powering an inverter or just straight dc loads, or the combination of both.

Fuel and engine wear are the biggest investment in the scope of an off-grid investment, that includes the same, when you measure through-put; end to end.

I know it's not fair 2 against one but...you are up against more odds then that...when talking total system efficiency...
Glad to have you aboard..let the vetting process begin...it's good for us all.

Lloyd



Lloyd

a few more things to consider

1. i would never use a fuse on the alternator output, reason being if there was ever a problem that caused the fuse to open the alternator would produce a very high voltage spike and there goes your rectifier bank

2. modern alternators use what is referred to as "avalanche" diodes for the rectifiers, what this means is a 12 volt unit will limit to about 30 volts operation before they clamp, any more voltage and operation over a few seconds will lead to rectifier failure, this precludes their use on anything over a 24volt system and even at 24 volts one will need to assure large enough cables not to have much over a half volt of drop you you will go over the avalanche voltage while charging a 24 volt bank with a 12 volt alternator. of course these diodes can be replaced or one can use one of the older models and get away from an avalanche type diode.  just something for others to be aware of and adds cost to the project.

3. while delco alternators are certainly widely available and about as inexpensive as any, they are also some of the most difficult to repair in my opinion, most especially the more modern units that use welded lead construction.  yes you can solder those connections instead of welding, however the reliability suffers at higher outputs.

4. a properly setup balmar, xantrex (which is made by balmar)., amplepower, hehr, sterling et. al. can and will pay for itself in fuel savings in very short order, as Lloyd reports they are very robust and their failure rate is quite low.

5.  efficiency is a measure of btu's input vs btu's output, and for the most part construction cost is not a factor. generally speaking the single largest factor in an engine driven battery charger is the cost of fuel, anything that reduces fuel consumption even a little bit will quickly not only pay for itself but pay dividends for the life of the system. a good controller will always allow for the use of less fuel than a similar system controlled with a simple reostat.

in closing i two would like to know more about your system

how large is your battery bank, how many amp/hrs?

where are the batteries stored?  underground so that the ambient temps are stable? or
in a climate controlled room? or in a room with  widely fluctuating temperatures over the course of a year?

what alternator are you using?

what engine are you driving it with?

how often do you recharge?

how many hours per day do you charge?

at what voltage do you charge? and

how do you maintain this voltage as the battery nears the point of gassing? (about 80% SOC)

you understand of course what you report doing is nothing new, quite the contrary it was what was used and abandoned by
everyone over a hundred years ago before the advent of mechanical regulators came on the scene.  the early mechanical regulators
were in reality a simple reostat that used some clever coils, gearing and other stuff to adjust the reostat as the battery charged.
it was quickly realized that running without some form of regulator was the soul cause of many a failed battery bank, by failed i mean
"murdered" batteries.

so lets hear more about your system and experiences operating it.

edit:

i went back and reread part of your original post,
it would appear you have a battery bank that is about 800amp hours at 24 volt nominal?

if this is the case, then your ability to max out at about 100 amps, and you limit the run time so that you then top off with solar panels
and have enough load to clamp the excess are the reasons why you are getting away with a simple reostat controlled system.

an 800amp/hr system could readily accept twice what you are able to deliver (up until gassing gets excessive, then you would have to reduce the output) and in doing so would cut your charge time roughly in half, which in turn would reduce your fuel consumption by roughly half as well.  however if you had a system capable of putting out 200 plus amps and chose to control it with a reostat you would either be forced to babysit if yourself or have batteries that boiled dry and suffered an early death.

more later

bob g

Maybe we are talking apples and oranges here folks.

I'm not saying your systems will not work, but you express all of your thoughts on how mine can't, or won't. I'm here to tell you I do, and it does.

I was told by the "Experts" I could not possibly run industry standard 3 phase industrial metal lathes and mills off grid here with a single phase 120VAC. But I do daily. It was stated by an engineer and physicist that the product I have designed could not work and was "all wrong" for the task yet I did, and have taken a good majority of his business.

Everything is doable and relative. Blanket statements do not always fit.

The system I use is for fast, pure DC amp charging. It is certainly bare bones and simple, and adequate for the task and my needs. No automatic startup and shutdown. No float or "Cycle" charging. And yes "Baby Sitting" if you consider peaking at a Trimetric for a moment and shutting down the gen if you have placed more than enough run time fuel needed "baby sitting". I have never found that to be a burden living off grid.

What my generators do is apply pure amps in DC with your choice of engines, that do pretty darn good on fuel, and use parts and components that are cheap and easily obtainable. Plus the cost allows me to run more than one generator setup in different areas, and have an instant backup rig ready to go should a problem arise, and I don't have the time to stop for the day and trouble shoot a repair issue.

I don't burn up alts.

I don't burn up batteries.

"no system that incorporates a single rheostat as the soul control handle in lieu of a proper regulator can ever come close to matching the efficiency of a purpose built regulator in efficiency, lifespan, or fuel consumption. this is not to say that such a system has no place in offgrid
because certainly it does, its just not the best solution for the vast majority of folks, and certainly has no place in a multifunction cogenerator save for a back up/fail safe/if all else fails patch to get you through till parts can be procured."

Those statements are far to general in their nature. Specially the part about lifespan an no place in a "multifunction cogenerator" off grid situation. It depends on what kind of power needs you're talking about. My system will run a home and a shop. Life span? Years. Parts cost? A few dollars. Down time? Minutes.

"modern alternators use what is referred to as "avalanche" diodes for the rectifiers, what this means is a 12 volt unit will limit to about 30 volts operation before they clamp, any more voltage and operation over a few seconds will lead to rectifier failure, this precludes their use on anything over a 24volt system and even at 24 volts one will need to assure large enough cables not to have much over a half volt of drop you you will go over the avalanche voltage while charging a 24 volt bank with a 12 volt alternator. "

I don't often DC charge past 29 volts or so in my 24v system. I charge up to about 85-90 percent (28-29), then let the panels and inverter do the rest including float. I do charge up and over 29v often but I do use heavy 1/0 copper.  Good tips on the diodes.

"generally speaking the single largest factor in an engine driven battery charger is the cost of fuel, anything that reduces fuel consumption even a little bit will quickly not only pay for itself but pay dividends for the life of the system. a good controller will always allow for the use of less fuel than a similar system controlled with a simple rheostat."

I would agree. If you can show me how I can reduce my fuel consumption and costs, I'm all ears.

"i would never use a fuse on the alternator output, reason being if there was ever a problem that caused the fuse to open the alternator would produce a very high voltage spike and there goes your rectifier bank"

What would you do, risk a possible fire? I run a heavy block 250 amp fuse inline of 1/0 copper cable between the alt + output and the battery +. If you have a problem severe enough to blow that fuse, your rectifier bank is the least of your worries.

I gotta git to work.

Patrick! 

Lad!  You're speaking against the faith!  Surrender into your warm fuzzy cloak of knowledge and understanding.  Allow your cup to runneth over.  Appreciate the oil upon your head.  I, for one, am with you.

I don't know if you've looked at the work Lloyd does but it puts most brain surgeons in the corner with the pointy hat.  And mobile_bob simply knows his stuff.  Your system works absolutely perfect for you but these guys have seen the result of the brown gui stuff hitting the propeller blade and they're lives have been changed forever.

I wonder how much more it would cost to build their system compared to yours?  Amortize that number over 10 years.  I'm not an hourly guy but I do understand monthly payments.

Casey

OK-

My bare bones DC charger.

Lets start with the least expensive setup:

Engines-

I've ran diesels and I've ran gas. I prefer to have both over the years, and eventually I will have 3 separate generator sheds here, both outfitted with a DC gas powered gen and a DC diesel.  Both ready to run at any given moment.

Right now I'm running Chinese knock of Hondas, and one Jap Honda. Reason is time to dedicate to gens, I don't have much right now, so I can have a Honda ready to go on a moments notice. I've had some good luck with the Chinese, once you get beyond bolts coming loose, and fuel tanks coming apart. If they run well and don't use oil from the start, they hang in there pretty good for the money. Getting 4 years on a 16hp currently. I prefer Jap Hondas but, the cost of the Chinese are going to allow me to conduct comparison tests.

Like I mentioned before, I would like to do some testing with these engines and the Delco alt systems to get a definitive measurement to see what combinations produce the best results. Looks like there will be some great help here for that.  Currently, I have a 6.5 chicom running, a 9hp Jap running, and a 16hp chicom running. I can run the 6.5 or the 16hp on the house system simultaneously.  I run the 9hp Honda for my CNC machines in the shop. I just purchased a 13hp chicom sitting ready for backup and future testing.

A 6.5 is a good inexpensive engine to run for those starting on a budget.

Alternator-

I use the Napa #66287  Delco-Remy 10DN Chinese Knockoff. They come with a 3 year full replacement warranty for $36.95. They far exceed performance and quality of any of the over the counter Mexican rebuilds. Rated at 63 amps I believe. As long as I keep them under 55 amps (24volt system) they last for a very long time. Many years at 40 amps.

Rheostat-

I use an Ohmite RKS16R variable. Once in awhile the contactor will burn and loose it's contact, and actually this is the only weak point of the unit. It's only happened one time.  I machined an adjustable clamp with a wire lug and removed their contactor. Once you find where you need to set it for your system, you never have to move it anyway. There's nothing else left to burn or fail. Pure dependable load.

Sheave pulleys and belts-

For now I run v-belts, and stock alt pulleys. 7" drive sheave with SK bushings. Even found an inexpensive steel non bushing pulley adequate for a 6.5 hp engine. I DO not use automotive V-belts. They are junk and wear out quickly. I use AX Industrial belts only.

My favorite belts are serpentine flat belts. More efficient, less drag, longer lasting. I have not had time to machine flat pulleys for these Hondas, but I will as time frees up here.

I run heavy copper cable, with copper lugs to the battery banks. 250amp inline fuse. Systems are monitored by Trimetric.

My goal is to perfect a this type of DC gen for highest performance and lowest costs involved, ease of repairs and maintenance, and parts availability. As soon as time allows, I have two new (2) JKson CS 6/1 Listers to get online, and one new Changfa Style Chinese single. I would like to put together the best DC alt charging system for those and see how well they perform.

Each will go in a Gen shed, along with a Honda DC gas rig. Plumb them into a hot water system for water heating. Glycol and heat exchanger.

Then the final goal is wood gassification as we sit on 15, heavily wooded acres next to the National Forest. I like Victory Gasworks designs.

Casey- I claim to be nobody's guru and respect those that have achieved high enlightenment in their fields. I'm all ears.  I would like to take my system and find out it's peak capabilities and costs and see what can be improved. Look at other systems well. I'm all for finding the best.

Here's as fancy as I get:

(http://www.patmarlins.com/YanmarGen.jpg)


That ran 8 years without changing the alt or doing any engine maintenance cept' for oil and filters.

Well I do things a little different.

First I size a battery bank based on the true Pukert load as opposed to the 24 hr average load. I go for a three day with out charge bank size, drawn down to 40% DOD/60% SOC or 12.4 for 12v bank and 24.8 for a 24v bank

Next I charge at 30-40 % of the amp hr capacity of the bank, during bulk charge. I use a temp compensated regulator, which maintains cell charge voltage. Ideally a bat should be charged at 77f, a bat can charge all the way to 120f as long as the voltage is tightly regulated, under temp management.

A bat bank can take this kind of charge amperage all the way through the bulk cycle as long as temp compensation and tight voltage management is controlled.

Pat, 12 L-16s in a 24v bank would mean 1110 amp hr bank if they're 375's or a 990 amp hr bank if they're 330's. So doing the math I would size the alts for max efficiency as follows 330 amp 24v, and respectively 297 amp 24v, or as close as I can get.

Your little  63 amp unit cold rated likely only puts out 40 amps hot, based on my experience, and that's pushing it to it's limit. That means I can charge a 1110 amp hr bank discharged 40%, about 4 times faster using 1/4 the fuel as your 63 amp unit

I'll just bet that your installation instructions that come with that alt state that if the bat voltage is below 24.6v to charge up the bats with a shore charger before running the alt. These alternators were never designed to be bat chargers. Their design is to replace the voltage used for cranking the engine, then providing accessory loads, which are usually intermittent. Running any alternator at it's flat out rate will burn em up.

The above is why I would only use a well designed regulator. First to get a bank standing at anything 60% or lower SOC into bulk, you have to slowly feed it current, said in another way you have to ramp up the current to max bulk charge. If you take a bank that is discharged and hit it with high current it will do noting but build heat. A discharged battery has a high resistance initially, but if you ramp up the current slowly it's resistance declines in short order so that it has almost no resistance, and then can take a high current charge the rest of the way through bulk charge.

lloyd

Pat

i think you may have missed my point, or rather more likely i missed getting it related to you effectively.

in an offgrid installation there is always a place for a simple system such as you have been using, it works as you describe
and makes for a nice failsafe/backup unit.

so in that regard you are right in promoting the system, however

my overriding point is simply there are better, more efficient and in the long run more cost effective means to battery charging.

its hard to argue against the marine industry, they have been living offgrid since before there was a grid and have prefected battery
charging to the highest degree attainable outside of perhaps NASA.  (even NASA follows similar charging schemes)

i am still comfortable in stating it likely we could cut your fuel consumption in half, and as Lloyd states perhaps to as much as one quarter
of what you use now.

bob g

And your particular circumstances, very large bank, relatively small charging source is why it works for you.  You are basically just a little over a trickle charge for that large a bank...  Reostat to limit the the alternator load so it survives the process at 40-50A and a huge hole to fill.  I think you could save a bunch of fuel(and runtime) with a well controlled larger capacity charge source.  And other than the larger engine to power it, not an especially complex bit of kit to keep the energies within limits...

Quote from: Ronmar on October 03, 2011, 01:58:46 PM
And your particular circumstances, very large bank, relatively small charging source is why it works for you.  You are basically just a little over a trickle charge for that large a bank... 

Really?  "trickle charge"

Uh at what measure is 40 to 55 amps @24v a trickle?

I see here there's many preconceived notions and opinions on the forum.

Right now with what I'm running on the house system I get at total of 95 amps @24v for about 4 hours continuous on about 2.5 gallons of gas.

I say for chinese knock off engines and $36 alternators warranted for 3 years that's not bad.

Show me specifics on a setup.  Engines, components, the whole setup and I will take a look at it.

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 02:09:03 PM

Quote from: Ronmar on October 03, 2011, 01:58:46 PM
And your particular circumstances, very large bank, relatively small charging source is why it works for you.  You are basically just a little over a trickle charge for that large a bank... 

Really?  "trickle charge"

Uh at what measure is 40 to 55 amps @24v a trickle?

I see here there's many preconceived notions and opinions on the forum.

Pat,

Based on the size of your bat bank 12 L16's your bank is as said before  between 1110 and 990 amp hrs. So 40-55 amps is a trickle charge, and most likely won't even bubble the bat bank during bulk charge. 40 to 55 amps would be about the starting current at the beginning of the absorption cycle.

Constant undercharging is the biggest act to murder a bank.

A bank your size should be able to sustain a constant load of 56 amps for 20 hrs...I'll be willing to bet if you put that load test on your bank you'll find that you hit 24.4v in about 3-4 hrs...this will demonstrate a highly sulfated bat bank based on the numbers you have reported below.

No preconceived notions just fact for me.

and 95 amps in four hours is as about as inefficient as you can get, as a matter of fact I'll bet that charging thru an inverter from the grid would be 3-4 times as cost efficient. I know your off grid, but you are paying a premium.

What is your total 24 hr load uasage before charging...do you have a bat monitor...so that you actually know how many amps you use and charge?

Lloyd

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 02:20:30 PM
Right now with what I'm running on the house system I get at total of 95 amps @24v for about 4 hours continuous on about 2.5 gallons of gas.

I say for chinese knock off engines and $36 alternators warranted for 3 years that's not bad.

Show me specifics on a setup.  Engines, components, the whole setup and I will take a look at it.

Pat
95 amps @ 24v is about 2280 watts, my dc diesel bat charger produced about 3600 watts per 1 liter per 1 hr, and did this every other day for 28 days straight this past August.

You can figger the difference in efficiency 1 US gal. is 3.73 liters.

By the way if you get 95 amps off the alternator in 4 hrs that means the alt is only producing 23 amps.

lloyd

OK- I don't follow you guys. I'm a little slow at times, plus I have a wall open here in the shop to the rain and cold, from getting my newest Hardinge CNC machine in so bare with me.

My whole point of posting here is when I saw comments telling a guy who was trying to build a charger for his system with a 2 hp engine, to look at regulators, etc, is off the mark.  2 or 2.5 hp for an alternator system is indeed a trickle charger.

How in the world is "95 amps off the alternator in 4 hrs that means the alt is only producing 23 amps".   Only producing 23 amps measured by an amp meter on a 24v system? How do you determine that? (I have 95 amps continuous... CONTINUOUS.)

Won't even boil? I've got the little 6.5 running with the bank over 29v gassing and boiling as we speak.

That 95 amps on my system is the equivalent of roughly 3.8kw of the Semiens PV panels I currently own. I wish I had 3.8kw of panels.

Now I don't mean to be disrespectful, or flame anyone. I know my system is limited for certain, but not even close to what you guys say it's doing.

My goal ultimate here is to produce the best fuel efficient DC charging system.

SHeez? No boil? Can't even close to 29v?

I just went to shutdown my little backup, uh "Babbysit" my 6.5 honda dc system. I fired it up about 3 hours ago. Trimetric was showing about 86 percent.  The Trimetric now shows right before shudown 96% 29.9 volts, batteries boiling and gassing.

THing only holds less than a gallon, and I bet there's a 1/4 left.

Trickle charge? ...  ;D :D :D ;D

As the kids say, "Yo" -this is not supposed to be the cat's meow DC system, but with my hands full with other tasks it's working pretty darn well, for peanuts in cost.

I see I'm gonna have some FUN messin' with you guys ... ;D ;D ;D

OK- here's a riddle for you DC gurus...

Right now I'm running a Hardinge CHNC lathe- CNC with Fagor 8025 industry standard computer control, an industrial 3phase 230 VAC FLA 30 3.8kw machine all day, day in and day out with a 9hp Honda turning a Delco DN10 alt in the manner described above with the throttle currently set at about  25% over idle for the part I'm running right now.

How can this possibly be?  ... ???

.... ;D

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 03:40:48 PM
OK- I don't follow you guys. I'm a little slow at times, plus I have a wall open here in the shop to the rain and cold, from getting my newest Hardinge CNC machine in so bare with me.

My whole point of posting here is when I saw comments telling a guy who was trying to build a charger for his system with a 2 hp engine, to look at regulators, etc, is off the mark.  2 or 2.5 hp for an alternator system is indeed a trickle charger.

How in the world is "95 amps off the alternator in 4 hrs that means the alt is only producing 23 amps".   Only producing 23 amps measured by an amp meter on a 24v system? How do you determine that? (I have 95 amps continuous... CONTINUOUS.)

Won't even boil? I've got the little 6.5 running with the bank over 29v gassing and boiling as we speak.

That 95 amps on my system is the equivalent of roughly 3.8kw of the Semiens PV panels I currently own. I wish I had 3.8kw of panels.

Now I don't mean to be disrespectful, or flame anyone. I know my system is limited for certain, but not even close to what you guys say it's doing.

My goal ultimate here is to produce the best fuel efficient DC charging system.

Hi Pat,

No flames here, at least I don't see any, hell I don't even smell smoke.

We need to start by getting on the same page.

watts=volts X amps

95 amps X 24v = 2280 watts

amps = watts / volts

3800 watts /  24 volts = 158 amps

If your sitting at 29.9 volts and boiling your over charging your bats, which causes grid plate corrosion... and certainly a proper regulator would be of aid.

5 things can cause a bat to boil

1. over voltage during the absorption cycle

2. over current during an absorption cycle

3. a battery being charged at elevated temperatures

4. sulfated plates, causing elevated temp. as a result of constant undercharging

5. corroded positive plates, causing elevated temp, as a result of constant overcharging

All of these symptoms can be remedied by proper regulation.

lloyd

"grid plate corrosion"

There goes those fancy words again ... ;D

How in the world (seem to be using that term a lot here) is boiling 12- L16's at 29.9 volts damaging, when:

1.  It's cloudy out, and I'm overdue for an equalize.

2. This bank should be equalized at 31 volts for about an hour.

How is this causing "grid plate corrosion"? What ever that means... Hummm?

me thinks you need to do a little reading

http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf (http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf)

Trying to give advise to the masses you should at least know the basics. This community is here for sharing and learning. But everyone should be cautioned about learning from someone whom doesn't quite understand the basics of which they're teaching.

I am happy to help, when you're ready to learn..but please don't try to teach yet.


Lloyd

OK- How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

I read all the time. I've been doing this a long time. My results have been pretty darn good and I'm in good company. Guys that have been in this business for years and have been using these systems daily for probably 20 some years longer than me,.

I got to get something to eat here,. Mom's gone for the night.

I will be happy to back up ANY thing I claim at any time. Do I claim to know it all know? No. I have been known to make a mistake from time to time as well .... ;D

Fire away.

I may ad I'm not trying to "Teach" anyone.

Disclaimer:

Kids ... do not pay attention to anything I may say and DON'T try my ideas at home!

... stick to Jerry Springer or what ever Y'all watch after school these days...  ;D

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 04:58:20 PM
OK- How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

I read all the time. I've been doing this a long time. My results have been pretty darn good and I'm in good company. Guys that have been in this business for years and have been using these systems daily for probably 20 some years longer than me,.

I got to get something to eat here,. Mom's gone for the night.

I will be happy to back up ANY thing I claim at any time. Do I claim to know it all know? No. I have been known to make a mistake from time to time as well .... ;D

Fire away.

For your reading pleasure.

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?PHPSESSID=6t6p16ovladkkffuo0n7eot7h0&action=profile;u=321;sa=showPosts (http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?PHPSESSID=6t6p16ovladkkffuo0n7eot7h0&action=profile;u=321;sa=showPosts)

Lloyd

Quote from: Lloyd on October 03, 2011, 04:49:49 PM
me thinks you need to do a little reading

http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf (http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf)

Trying to give advise to the masses you should at least know the basics. This community is here for sharing and learning. But everyone should be cautioned about learning from someone whom doesn't quite understand the basics of which they're teaching.

I am happy to help, when you're ready to learn..but please don't try to teach yet.


Lloyd

OK Teach. I read your PDF. Very informative and basic info on charging a battery, BUT I couldn't find the term "grid plate corrosion" mentioned anywhere. Please send me to a definition for that as it's a new term for me.  I want to learn.

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 05:24:22 PM

Quote from: Lloyd on October 03, 2011, 04:49:49 PM
me thinks you need to do a little reading

http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf (http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf)

Trying to give advise to the masses you should at least know the basics. This community is here for sharing and learning. But everyone should be cautioned about learning from someone whom doesn't quite understand the basics of which they're teaching.

I am happy to help, when you're ready to learn..but please don't try to teach yet.


Lloyd

OK Teach. I read your PDF. Very informative and basic info on charging a battery, BUT I couldn't find the term "grid plate corrosion" mentioned anywhere. Please send me to a definition for that as it's a new term for me.  I want to learn.

http://www.batterydirect.co.nz/serv01.htm
http://www.batterydirect.co.nz/serv02.htm

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 04:58:20 PM
OK- How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Fire away.

Huh? That's your answer?  Sending me over to a 38 or some page thread?  

You're Kiddn' Right? .... ??? ;D

Teach, teach...   Why would you send me over to a sight in NZ on car batt's?

Everyone knows those NewZealand guys are a few fries short of a Happy Meal ... ;D

I read through the WHOLE thing and still, I couldn't find the term "grid plate corrosion" mentioned anywhere. May have missed it.

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 05:30:49 PM

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 04:58:20 PM
OK- How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Fire away.

Huh? That's your answer?  Sending me over to a 38 or some page thread?  

You're Kiddn' Right? .... ??? ;D

You could learn a lot by reading...no kidding

We posted at the same time.  Please address my last 2 posted questions directly here in this thread.,  Please.

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 05:44:36 PM
Teach, teach...   Why would you send me over to a sight in NZ on car batt's?

Everyone knows those NewZealand guys are a few fries short of a Happy Meal ... ;D

I read through the WHOLE thing and still, I couldn't find the term "grid plate corrosion" mentioned anywhere. May have missed it.

sure must have

Quote
Plate or Grid Related Corrosion:

Grid corrosion of the Positive plates within a battery is a normal 'end of battery life' condition that is commonly caused due to higher operating temperatures, overcharging or loss of electrolyte fluid.  Of the positive and negative plates within a battery, it is the positive plates where the grid metal can completely oxidise and disintegrate due to these operating conditions.   Different alloys added to the positive grid lead can have an affect on the corrosion rate.  Antimonial lead grids generally have a higher corrosion resistance than calcium lead grids, and along with higher volumes of electrolyte above the plates, can help overcome this problem, allowing batteries to operate more successfully in harsh conditions.

Soft Positive Plate Material ("mushy plates").  This is a condition usually resulting from high operating temperatures or overcharging.  Often, both conditions may have occurred.

Sulphation.  This occurs when a battery stands in a partially or fully discharged state for long periods of time, or is continually undercharged.  As a result of these conditions the active lead material on the plates becomes lead sulphate which also hardens the plates.   Depending on the length of time the battery has been in this condition, the sulphation may be irreversible.  In addition, if the electrolyte level in the battery is low, the exposed part of the plates will become inactive and sulphated.  Therefore batteries with higher electrolyte levels will go a long way to reducing problems due to sulphation and assisting longer battery life.

OK- thank you for the definition. I'm multitasking here with a machine problem. There are other terms used for that condition I believe as well.

Now back to my question:

How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Please don't send me to a 38 page thread. I don't have time for that.  I'm prepared to explain anything I written by my direct experience and what I have learned from (Experts) in home off grid
systems such as mine.

Pat

let me see if i can follow your plan

you stated somewhere that you are using a 63amp chinese knockoff of the little delco? right?

and i am supposed to believe that it is able to produce 95amps at something over 28volts for 4 hours, and do so for
how many years?  (i think you stated 3 years on the current alternator?)

we are all trying to understand where you are coming from, what exactly you are doing, and above all we are trying to be helpful.

having said that, i have to take exception based on my experience (which goes back well over 30 years now) with delco, motorola, leece neville,
prestolite, and a few other japanese makes.

in my opinion the little delco (aside from being a cheap alternative for a little backup charger) is a total waste of time for something that will be called upon for serious charging.

that little delco on its best day might be somewhere just north of 50% efficient, and "maybe" a bit over 65% "if" you run it at 28.8volts "and" no more than maybe 40amps.  even then its lifespan will  be limited with most folks, which is not to say your installation has not been successful
at charging your batteries, i am just saying there are better and more efficient ways of getting the job done.

you come along as a newbie spouting on about how folks are wasting money or whatever with purpose built regulators and so far something about what is reported just doesn't add up, at all!

as i stated before what you are doing, folks did with a reostat back in the 1880's and they realized that it was a very poor way to control charging, so the hunt was on for a means to automate the babysitting of the reostat, and the mechanical regulator was born of that need.  the mechanical
regulator was far better than running with a reostat, however a better regulator was needed and everyone knew it. it took another half century
for solid state components (transistors) to begin to show up and the electronic regulator was born.

the 3 step regulators were born out of the very real need to effectively, safely and efficiently charge offgrid batteries by the marine industry.

the boat guys have long known that a reostat can be used in a pinch to get the boat back to the dock, however it is used only as a last ditch
shtf situation when all else fails.  under those conditions, human life is more important than battery life.

i would suggest reading up on what the marine boys have done for years, read up on what sandia labs have tested and proven, perhaps get a copy of "living on 12volts" and "wiring for 12volts"  (amplepower press) both available on ebay from time to time, and learn from the guys that frequent this forum.

btw, i can produce damn close to 10kw/hrs per US gallon of diesel with my rig, that being 28.8volts DC @ 100amps, that is probably about at least 3x better fuel economy than what you are doing with  your system.   (actually i am very tired, long day and all that, i would have to do the math)

later on that

bob g

Pat:

with all due respect

"i don't have time to read 30 odd pages"  (paraphrased)

dude, please 

if you don't take the time to read, please don't ask us to explain what has taken years and thousands of pages of reading, along
with decades of hands on experience, R&D, testing and experimentation.

if you don't have time to read, i don't have any more time to devote to this topic

bob g

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 05:54:30 PM
OK- thank you for the definition. I'm multitasking here with a machine problem. There are other terms used for that condition I believe as well.

Now back to my question:

How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Please don't send me to a 38 page thread. I don't have time for that.  I'm prepared to explain anything I written by my direct experience and what I have learned from (Experts) in home off grid
systems such as mine.

Pat,

I do system design/build for on-board marine power, including bat banks, gens, inverters, solar, panels, and wire ways. On average I do 4-5 systems a year, many exceeding your application.

If you read the link to my post on this forum, I think you will find a large amount of information that would aid in managing your system.

Lloyd

lloyd

OK let address that BOB,

I'm being told to go read (and I did), now you guys give me the courtesy of accurately reading what I post.

I achieve 95 amps by running 2 dc gen setups on my house system.  One -6.5 honda @40 amps (24v system reference) One 16hp honda @ 55 amps (24v system reference).

I further gave info on just the 6.5 honda system hear today in your comment that it could not "Boil" my 12 L16's.

There's no spouting involved.

With all due respect Lloyd/Bob, that sounds like you have much experience. But you are telling me I can't do what I do with my setup, and then just say "Go Read" when I state L16's in my system should be equalized at 31 volts for an hour, and by running the 6.5 Honda today at 96% 29.9v I'm damaging the plates.

You guys can't have it both ways.

First you tell me my "Little Trickle" charger can't possibly do that much charging, then you say I'm damaging my plates.

Which is it?

Yo Patrick,

Lighten up.  Alternatives are the spice of life.  I kind of burned these two fellows out a couple of months ago on battery terminals and WVO processing.  Please take a moment and consider the amount of time they've given you.  I'm believe my programs are much improved as a result of their council.  I came to the understanding that I just can't perform at their level of expertise.  And I might be even slower than you to change a working system with a 10 year history. 

We all know your system works just fine for you.  If you want to see something interesting take a look at this article that mike90045 contributed a few months ago.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html (http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html)

Easy reading with good illustrations - my kind of meat.

Casey

Pat

go back and reread what i have posted

no where did i say your system won't work, because it will

is it the best system?  for the vast majority of applications no it isn't! for the majority it would not only be wasteful of fuel but also
damaging to the batteries and in the end be so damn costly that i would not want to be associated with it.

here is the thing, this forum (recently passing it second anniversary) is populated by folks that range from moderately serious about these
sorts of systems to down right rabid about them.  some of us have spent literally thousands of hours reading, researching, developing and
in some cases many thousands of dollars as well along the way.

we all started with a briggs and stratton, a delco and a reostat!  (or a tecumseh, fomoco, and a reostat) and my bet there are many that even
used a head light dimmer reostat out of an old car to manage the field of their first gensets.

for me that was about 1972 or so,

we learned early on that many things happened, while the expedient thing (getting the battery charged) was accomplished, we got tired of
carrying fuel, listening the the engine run hours on end,  things flowing up, batteries getting cooked (we didn't have a thousand amp/hrs so
a 50amp charger could seriously overheat and murder a small bank typical of the offgrid experience back then.  it was better than nothing, but
only marginally better than simply using the oem regulator which looking back had more going for it than we thought at the time.

i digress

the thing is there are those of us that are very serious about efficiency, (component and overall)  and have learned that there simply is no more effective means to accomplishing high charging efficiency without some form of sophisticated regulation/control over the alternator.

it just isn't going to happen with a delco dn10, i am sorry but again it isn't going to work for the vast majority of folks.  i am not saying it isn't working for you, all i am saying is "i would bet a dollar to a dog turd, that such a system would be a dismal failure for 95% of offgridders"

i also know that folks like Lloyd, Ronmar, myself and a host of others on this forum (tired so forgive me if i don't list them all) could build a system such as yours, and make it work just as you have.... but why?  

and i also know that these same folks would never promote the use of such a system as you have here for anything other than standby or emergency use.

at this point it looks to me that you are the one that needs to sell your system design to us, not the other way around.

bob g

Humm yes, I went back and see some edits have been made that I directly addressed.

In any event, I'm not trying to sell you. I don't need your business, I was merely pointing out the way I do it, then after comments stating it could not be done, or if done it must produce poor results,  I had given specifics. I can give more specifics. My results are here are certainly not that poor as written.

It still has not been shown to me as to why as yet. The alts I use perform better than you guys claim, but to each his own. No matter.

If any one here cares to know more about my setup, just ask. It can be operated safely and I think my first set of L16's that were in the house for 9 years, and now have been in the shop for over 3 (as a pass through amp storage only) and have had nothing else but my DC charger and float charging from my solar panels and Trace SW4024 speak for themselves.  No damage done there. You have to have basic common sense to run a system like this. Plug it into anything, pull start and walk away with no understanding is not suggested.

AND if you care to learn more about care of L16 batteries from folks who have used them for home business and sales for as long as they've been made, contact the folks at backwoods solar in Idaho.  That's who I've done business with all these years and their advise has been dead on.  Good informative wesbite as well.

If anyone cares to learn how I run my machine shop with industrial machines using an off grid system, I again am happy to answer questions, give examples, pictures, yadda, yadda.

I'm not selling anything system related. Just sharing knowledge that works here, and I use.

So like I mentioned before, Bob and Lloyyd, I still am interested in the best components that will save me money in fuels.  Engine? Alt? Controllers?

Would like to hear what the best is for my Listers as well.

-edit- or if you prefer, tell me to "go read" with a link. On specifics, component models, etc.

Pat

let me try a different approach

1. no one says your system won't work, because it will work.

2. many of us have worked with or used the same sort of system.

3. there are better, more efficient and safer methods of control

4. i am not suggesting that you are trying to sell us anything, what i meant was
you are trying to convince us that your system is the way to go. or at least that is how i have
interpreted your posting.

if you would like to know why your system works as well as it does,  i think that has been explained for the most part

1. you have a relatively large battery bank

2. you have a relatively small charging capacity

3. you monitor your state of charge and shutdown before things get to hot/overcharged

4. you manage your loads well,

5. you likely don't go under 40 or 50% SOC, with any regularity, and

6. you are running the delco which i assume started out life as a 12volt nominal unit, at 24volts nominal with the reostat control
which will increase the efficiency of the alternator provided you spin it fast enough not to have to overamp the rotor, and not pull
more than about 60% of rated ampacity of the delco alternator.

having said all that, i don't know you from adam, have never seen your system, however i bet i am right on more counts than not with my
listings.

now if you are serious about wanting to reduce your fuel consumption, you might want to consider stepping up to a more substantial alternator such as the leece neville/prestolite 555 jho series alternator, remove the external piggy back regulator (fit it with a toggle if you like)
and control it with a balmar mc612 as outline in my white paper , so that you can do an honest 28.8volts at 100amps all day long with efficiency exceeding 80%.

you will need to turn the alternator to 4800rpm for good cooling and to allow for about 3.5amps of rotor excitation current, the alternator will be quite warm but no where near its rated 205 degree ambient conditions, drive it with a water cooled diesel such as a s195 changfa and you will get very close to 10kw/hrs from a gallon of pump diesel with the engine turning 1800.  you could probably get about 8kw/hrs from a good 6/1 driving the same.

you could substitute a sterling 3 step controller (available on ebay for less than half the cost of a balmar) or a xantrex or a few others which work as well in basic function.

with the programmable controllers you get so much control, so many parameters can be set and monitored, your alternator heat load can be monitored and therefore protected from burnout, the batteries can and will get temp compensated charge if you use the optional sensor too.

yes it will cost a few more bucks, even if you bought a new alternator, and new balmar controller and set everything up right i would bet you could do it for around 600-750 bucks, and substantially cheaper if you shop well.

the difference in fuel savings would make a payoff very short for an offgrid home, even shorter with the business also deriving power from the system.

more later, going to bed

bob g

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
I achieve 95 amps by running 2 dc gen setups on my house system.  One -6.5 honda @40 amps (24v system reference) One 16hp honda @ 55 amps (24v system reference).

Well one place where you could gain some efficiency is in your HP usage.  That 6.5HP Honda should be able to sustain 3KW of electrical load on a generator.  40A @ 24V is 960W...  The 16HP honda should be good for 8KW of electrical load, you are loading it with 1320W.  You could get your entire 95A out of the 6.5 engine by installing both alternators on it, and still have room to spare...  In terms of fuel consumption, the first KW produced by a generator set is the most expensive.  Each sucessive KW produced by that generator set cost's substantially less fuel.  One reason for this is that a lightly loaded engine is typically not as efficient as an engine loaded upwards of 75% capacity.  I will post a fuel vs load table for my 6/1 later today. 

We must be measuring amps differently. You guys must be talking about taking an amp reading off the alt, which would be 95 amps in 12 volts, which would read from my 24 volt wired system 190 amps. 95 amps here would put that little 6.5 in the dirt.

There's no way a 6.5hp engine will handle 2 alternators, unless the load was extremely light on both alts- some where around 15-20 amps for a 24v system. The 16hp yes, and you would be puttin' a good grunt load on it.

Something I should have mentioned yesterday- L16 batteries are NOT like your car or deep cycle marine batteries. They like to be boiled, and equalized fairly often. That's the key to their longevity. They are not prone to "plate corrosion" like what you may be used to.

When I speak of amps on this thread I stated it's referenced off of my 24V solar system via Trimetric.  

Example:

I have 1kw of solar panels on the house. 10 SR100 seimens that are rated a little over 5 amps each.  If my system was wired for 12V, the Trimetric (wired off the shunt) would show about 50 amps full sun.
Since my I have a 24V system, my Trimetric reads 25 amps full sun. Actually peak off of them is 29 amps.

SO when I say my DC alt chargers are putting out 95 amps by running the 6.5hp and the 16hp together, (24V system reference) on my Trimetric meter- if my battery bank were wired in 12 volts it would read 190 amps.  If my battery bank and inverter was wired for 48 volts, it would read 47.5 amps.

Hence when I say my 6.5hp DC alt charger is putting out 40 amps, you may be thinking 40 amps in 12V. No- it would be 80 amps in 12V wired solar system.

I don't know if I'm being clear here, but that is what I mean when I reference a 24V wired system- 24V inverter and batt bank.

Pat

i for one followed what you stated from the start

90amps on a 24 volt system, ok so everyone is on the same page

on my system i can pull about 8kwatts with 2.88 kwatts (28.8vdc @ 100amps) from one 555 alternator and still draw
nearly 5kwatts from the ST7.5 head both running at the same time, or

i can pull near the full 7.5 from the ST head running alone with the 555 alternator shut down.

either way the fuel used works out to very close to 10kw/hrs per gallon consumed.

i can also shut down the ST head, reduce the engine speed to 1300rpm and decrease the fuel consumption another 5% running
the 555 at the same ouput of 2.88 kwatts (28.8vdc @ 100amps)

i cannot get even close with reostat control, because as the batteries recharge the voltage will climb and things start to get hot
in a hurry, unless i am will to keep a fairly close eye on things and adjust as needed.

the balmar (and hehr controllers i test with) can make those fine adjustments thousands of times per second, and keep the voltage
spot on what i am asking for, maintain the specific load as seen by the engine, and also tailor the charge as things warm up which protects
the alternator and the battery bank.

also once i have the refer compressor system working, when the clutch kicks in i can also use the same signal source to trigger the balmar to
50% output so that i have additional available hp to drive the compressor with.  yes i could do this by hand, but the balmar does it seamlessly.

these controllers are surprisingly robust, reliable and trouble free,  if one smokes it is because i hooked it up wrong.

for me it makes perfect sense, and i just can't accomplish all the things i want done, without the use of a programmable controller.

i just don't want to manage things or babysit a system when for a couple hundred bucks a small box of electronics can and does do a much
better job than me.

in closing, yes i will have a small engine drive alternator that is reostat controlled, however its use will be relegated to quick charging a car/truck battery for the most part and used as a backup to the main system should something happen that takes it offline for a while.

for me, i see at least 3 differing gensets, a small, a medium and a large one, that way i can match the generator to the loads prevalent during
specific times of the year.

bob g

Quote from: Lloyd on October 03, 2011, 04:13:16 PM

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 03, 2011, 03:40:48 PM
OK- I don't follow you guys. I'm a little slow at times, plus I have a wall open here in the shop to the rain and cold, from getting my newest Hardinge CNC machine in so bare with me.

My whole point of posting here is when I saw comments telling a guy who was trying to build a charger for his system with a 2 hp engine, to look at regulators, etc, is off the mark.  2 or 2.5 hp for an alternator system is indeed a trickle charger.

How in the world is "95 amps off the alternator in 4 hrs that means the alt is only producing 23 amps".   Only producing 23 amps measured by an amp meter on a 24v system? How do you determine that? (I have 95 amps continuous... CONTINUOUS.)

Won't even boil? I've got the little 6.5 running with the bank over 29v gassing and boiling as we speak.

That 95 amps on my system is the equivalent of roughly 3.8kw of the Semiens PV panels I currently own. I wish I had 3.8kw of panels.

Now I don't mean to be disrespectful, or flame anyone. I know my system is limited for certain, but not even close to what you guys say it's doing.

My goal ultimate here is to produce the best fuel efficient DC charging system.

Hi Pat,

No flames here, at least I don't see any, hell I don't even smell smoke.

We need to start by getting on the same page.

watts=volts X amps

95 amps X 24v = 2280 watts

amps = watts / volts

3800 watts /  24 volts = 158 amps


lloyd

Pat,

Here is the math again, you're conversing with three members that know power generation, about five times over your head.

And just for the RECORD, I am a TROJAN bat dealer.

So far to date, I can't understand a single point you are trying to make, bc as soon as someone questions your statement, you go oh I meant this or that.

If you want to have a good discussion you at least need to present the fact, based on the math, and proper understanding of how and where the power is coming from and going too.

Lloyd

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 04, 2011, 09:37:40 AM

Something I should have mentioned yesterday- L16 batteries are NOT like your car or deep cycle marine batteries. They like to be boiled, and equalized fairly often. That's the key to their longevity. They are not prone to "plate corrosion" like what you may be used to.

This is a completely wrong statement....period!!!!!

Go to the Trojan website and read their battery charge regime. Their battery fac, and their trouble shooting. They specifically state that constant overcharging will shorten the life of the bat, due to grid plate corrosion.

Remember I am a TROJAN DEALER, and I have had numerous conversations with their engineers.

If your going to blow smoke blow it some other direction.

And just for the record, the Idaho backwoods solar site sells a dc gen kit exactly as you describe yours, are you their manufacturer??

They also have a fac on their website about battery care and charge regime.. and state also that constant overcharging will cause grid plate corrosion.

Lloyd

Well I have not changed one point I've made incase you care to read. Right from the start Lloyd.

So you and I can just disagree.

5 times over my head?  I think your head is five times to big to accept the fact someone may have something to show you that differs from your "Vast Knowledge".

Perfect example- you stated my 31volts equalizing for one hour causes plate corrosion on L16's.  If you're a dealer I suggest you go read.

I could prove anything I write and show my results, but I see it's pointless here. I've got a shop to run and a living to make.

My last comment Lloydd...

If you think the L16 data I've written is damaging, I suggest you call the guys at Backwoods and question there instructions, which is what I've followed and has served me well for years, and them as well with their own systems. I imagine or they would not suggest it if it caused the damage you claim!

I do not manufacture their charger, and mine is modified to what they sell.

I'm done here so you can rest.

Barbie Doll

http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Support/BatteryMaintenance.aspx

3.4. Charging and Equalizing

3.4.1. Charging
Proper charging is imperative to maximize battery performance. Both under- or overcharging
batteries can significantly reduce the life of the battery. For proper charging, refer
to the instructions that came with your equipment. Most chargers are automatic and preprogrammed.
Some chargers allow the user to set the voltage and current values. Refer
to Table 4 for charging guide lines. Refer to Diagram 4 for Trojan's recommended flooded/
wet charging guidelines, Diagram 5 for Trojan's recommended gel charging guidelines and
Diagram 6 for Trojan's recommended AGM charging guidelines.
• Make sure the charger is set to the appropriate program for flooded/wet, gel or
AGM, depending on the type of battery you are charging
• Batteries should be fully charged after each use
• Lead-acid batteries (flooded/wet, gel and AGM) do not have a memory effect
and therefore do not need to be fully discharged before recharging
• Charge only in well-ventilated areas
• Check electrolyte level to make sure plates are covered with water before
charging (flooded/wet batteries only)
• Check that all vent caps are secured properly on the battery before charging
• Flooded/wet batteries will gas (bubble) towards the end of charge to ensure the
electrolyte is properly mixed
• Never charge a frozen battery
• Avoid charging at temperatures above 120°F (49°C


Equalizing (Flooded batteries only)       
   
   


Equalizing is an overcharge performed on flooded lead acid batteries after they have been fully charged. It reverses the buildup of negative chemical effects like stratification, a condition where acid concentration is greater at the bottom of the battery than at the top. Equalizing also helps to remove sulfate crystals that might have built up on the plates. If left unchecked, this condition, called sulfation, will reduce the overall capacity of the battery.

Many experts recommend that batteries be equalized periodically, ranging anywhere from once a month to once or twice per year. However, Trojan only recommends equalizing when low or wide ranging specific gravity (+/- .015) are detected after fully charging a battery.

Step by Step Equalizing:

1. Verify the battery(s) are flooded type.

2. Remove all loads from the batteries.

3. Connect battery charger.

4. Set charger for the equalizing voltage (See Table 2 in the Charging section).

5. Start charging batteries.

6. Batteries will begin gassing and bubbling vigorously.

7. Take specific gravity readings every hour.

8. Equalization is complete when specific gravity values no longer rise during the gassing stage.

NOTE: Many chargers do not have an equalization setting so this procedure can't be carried out.

3.4.2. Equalizing (flooded/wet batteries ONLY)
Equalizing is an overcharge performed on flooded/wet batteries after they have been fully
charged. Trojan recommends equalizing only when batteries have low specific gravity, below
1.250 or wide ranging specific gravity, 0.030, after fully charging a battery. Gel or AGM
batteries should never be equalized.
• Confirm that the batteries are flooded/wet
• Check electrolyte level to make sure plates are covered with water before charging
• Check that all vent caps are secured properly on the battery before charging
• Set charger to equalizing mode
• The batteries will gas (bubble) during the equalization process
• Measure the specific gravity every hour. Discontinue the equalization charge when the
gravity no longer rises

The point of all this madness is.

12 Trojan L16's is quite an investment average retail price of $375.00 X 12 = $4,500. dollars.

This bank's return on investment is wholly dependent on a proper charge regime, which must be temp. compensated, as well as voltage and current controlled, and sized to charge effeciently.

It's been proven by thousands of installations off-grid that the most efficient way  is to use a charge cycle regime. 1. The bats receive better care, from the controlled charge. and 2. The engine/generator run at peek performance, charging at the least fuel to charge amps produced. 3. less run-time, wear and tear and maintenance cost for the engine/generator.

The industry standard in off-grid Telco sites, have all changed to this regime...why bc of the return on investment.

Final point an under sized, uncontrolled system will never be able to make the same return on investment, as a matter of fact the cheap under performing setup, will in the end, be a loss instead of return.

lloyd

OFFGriddnPat,
mobile_bob and Lloyd have been working with DC charging for years and they know what they are talking about. They are very respected here and on other forums. I understand you are new here but I find it very offensive for you to step in and argue with them on this topic. Why don't you work the info they presented to you. Take six months or a year to work it if you have to. You can learn lots by having humility.

Henry

Really not a good way to join a forum.

I really don't get it .... these two gentlemen are hard core in DC..."Been there don't that"...and he keep  pushing...just started with a wrong foot...

No problems guys. I understand loyalty amongst friends.

I'm going to move on from your forum here, but I wish leave you with a few thoughts.

I tried to explain from the beginning of this thread what I do with these DC auto alts, for a different perspective to consider.  I mentioned the size of my systems and the limitations of my DC chargers, and that my Trace Inverter handles float charges -with my PV Panels.  And that Backwoods Solar recommends 31volts at one hour for equalization for systems such as mine. Which served me well for my first expensive battery bank starting 13 years ago.

The whole reason I posted this thread was because of statements like this:

Quote from: Ronmar on October 04, 2011, 07:58:18 AMYou could get your entire 95A out of the 6.5 engine by installing both alternators on it, and still have room to spare... . 

I've read that notion few times on the net here and there, and on this forum with not a peep out of the 3 experts that I've been told are 5 times over my head.

You may think I'm ignorant, have no math skills, and I'm here to cause trouble, but that statement above speaks volumes of actual experience building generators. It ain't gonna work worth squat in the real world, and yes IMO.

So I've read some very reasonable responses- Thank you Bob, But I've been jumped on with some very unreasonable statements, so I tried to further clarify my position respectfully, and then I'm told "my charger can't possibly put out that kind of power", moving on to "that kind of power is damaging my battery bank etc." Moving on to "I change my story."

There it is. I came here to share my experiences, and see if I could perfect my DC Systems, with something better.

Instead of saying, "you can't possibly be doing that", why not say, "If he is, how is he doing it?  How is that possible?"

Instead of saying, "What you're doing is wrong! Based on all of my knowledge", why not say, "well if he did that- how is it that his results turned out differently?"

Keep an open mind guys, and learn.  That's what I do and it's served me well all of my life.

Pat

Pat

you have to understand that for me at least, as i suspect the same with others, we have seen bold claims made by newbies before

bold assertions require bold proof!

also please understand that i for one simply go up in flames when i see yet another guy going on about a little delco running the world.
(i am not saying you have done this, else i would have dumped a ton of rock on your head straight up)

over here we have countless jokers selling delco's modified with neo mags, claiming everything from running your house to a village
for 300 bucks and often less.  we see them advertised for windgen's, gas driven gensets, and all sorts of other crap.

to date there have been very few satisfied customers, and tons of burnt up cheap delco's, dead batteries and folks coming back looking for
the right way to do things.

just like the 200 mpg carb exists (and yes it does, i have seen the book, the tech drawings, and the patent) both it and the delco while technically possible just aren't practical for the vast majority of folks.

just because something can be done is no measure for it should be done.

sometimes taking the cheap way out turns out to be the most expensive route possible, at least that has been my experience in life.

when someone comes forward claiming he can run his whole house, his complete three phase machine shop, all on a chinese clone engine
driving a chinese clone delco 10dn,  and does so for years without problems, well i am left to think a couple of things

1. the guy lives in a one room cabin, and
2. he runs his machines a few minutes per day, or
3. he is full of crap?

there are three rules of sales and i think it applies here as well

you can have what you want
you can have it when you want it
you can get it for cheap

you can have any two but not all three?

bob g

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 04, 2011, 09:37:40 AM
We must be measuring amps differently. You guys must be talking about taking an amp reading off the alt, which would be 95 amps in 12 volts, which would read from my 24 volt wired system 190 amps. 95 amps here would put that little 6.5 in the dirt.

There's no way a 6.5hp engine will handle 2 alternators, unless the load was extremely light on both alts- some where around 15-20 amps for a 24v system. The 16hp yes, and you would be puttin' a good grunt load on it.

Really?  There is NO way a 6.5HP will handle 95A@24V?  Have you ever tried it?

I guess I am a glutton for punishment so I will go around once more.
Pat, here are the facts, and just because you do not believe them dosn't make them any less so.
1. Watts are Watts regardless of the source.
2. Sustainable power generation requires 2HP per KW of electrical load.  Look at any generator set, a 5KW set has a 10HP engine, and that is the way it has been since prettymuch humans started turning torque into electrons...
3. I thought we were talking about 24V here, 12V never came into the picture till YOU brought it here.  But since you did, lets go there... Your statement IRT 12V shows that you obviously do not understand this concept. 24V@95amps is 2280 WATTS!.  Now here is one for you to get your brain around if you can. 12V@190A is the exact same ammount of energy, 2280WATTS!.   It would be nearly the same load on your engine to generate it. 12V being less efficient than 24 in the same alternator, would require a little more torque, but within your engines capability.  Even following the old 30A per HP for 12V alternators(I think that is a little conservative), your 6.5 should still be good for 195A out of a 12V alternator.
4.  If your 6.5HP engine is turning at an RPM where it can make it's rated 6.5HP, it should be capable of sustaining either 24V@95A or 12V@190A...

Best of luck to you, save your pennies for fuel and that new battery bank...

I am most definitely dun!

Well pat,

It was never my intent to try to run you off, I hope you'll stay and participate.

Maybe it's your communication skills, or confusing wording, or just flat  claims that are out right against every proven system. Including all the words on you suppliers site, which are in direct opposition to your claims.

I have been managing battery banks well longer then you've had you system...I know from experience that what you propose will lead to a high failure rate, and much fuel burned, by the shear majority that would try it.

While the Bogart Tiametric is not the worst system in the world, I certainly wouldn't rate it worth the investment, and certainly would never recommend to one of my clients. First it is only as accurate as it's programed, it's not temp compensated, it's not Pukert compensated...So really it's an educated guess as to the real state of charge of the bank, this is even stated on you Idaho backwoods solar site.

last but not least I don't think anyone could use the system you prescribe, with out knowing what the temp of the bat bank is, so even though you say you're charging at 31 volts, how do you know it could be anywhere between 28 volts and 36 volts after temp. compensation.

And to be sure you take any fully charged bat. bank, and hit it with 31 volts it's going to bubble. With you're system, how do you know how long you're in bulk and absorption cycle?

On at least three of your post you state  just want to be able to build the most efficient system you can. If that's truly your goal, then quit being so combative and listen to point's made by the good people hear willing to help you achieve that goal.

This is not some good'ol boy's group, where friends are protecting friends... I'll assure you if Bob or myself started spouting something that was out of line, the rest here would be more then happy to point out our mistakes. As a matter of fact I have eaten crow here myself, and am happy to do so, when I prepared it for myself.

So stay or go you're choice...but if you want to learn stay, we all be glad to have ya.

lloyd

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on October 02, 2011, 09:45:15 AM
Maybe we are talking apples and oranges here folks.

I'm not saying your systems will not work, but you express all of your thoughts on how mine can't, or won't. I'm here to tell you I do, and it does.

I was told by the "Experts" I could not possibly run industry standard 3 phase industrial metal lathes and mills off grid here with a single phase 120VAC. But I do daily. It was stated by an engineer and physicist that the product I have designed could not work and was "all wrong" for the task yet I did, and have taken a good majority of his business.

Everything is doable and relative. Blanket statements do not always fit.

One thing about these groups is that as soon as somebody says you can't, somebody does. Scientists and engineers all agree that a hummingbird can not fly, but they do, and they do it very well. One thing I have learned though in life is that nothing is impossible and the laws of physics are not exact or .

as far as i am concerned the laws of physic's may as well be carved by God out of unobtanium, for they stand up to all scrutiny
whether one likes it or not.

if an engineer states that a hummingbird cannot fly, i would suggest he go back and take a better look at how the critter is doing it, and yes
he will find it does so without breaking any laws of physics.

laws are not suggestions, laws are not rule's, either of which might change due to circumstances.

bob g

I agree Bob...only an incompetent engineer would conclude that a hummingbird can't fly.  A competent engineer would design and build one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12513315

And then he would build a robotic fly with full reconnaissance capability...

Bob B.

Quote from: sailawayrb on December 16, 2011, 06:42:33 PM
I agree Bob...only an incompetent engineer would conclude that a hummingbird can't fly.  A competent engineer would design and build one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12513315

And then he would build a robotic fly with full reconnaissance capability...

Bob B.

Just like I said, as soon as somebody says you can't, somebody does.

Quote from: mobile_bob on October 04, 2011, 07:15:42 PM
Pat...

when someone comes forward claiming he can run his whole house, his complete three phase machine shop, all on a chinese clone engine
driving a chinese clone delco 10dn,  and does so for years without problems, well i am left to think a couple of things

1. the guy lives in a one room cabin, and
2. he runs his machines a few minutes per day, or
3. he is full of crap?

there are three rules of sales and i think it applies here as well

you can have what you want
you can have it when you want it
you can get it for cheap

you can have any two but not all three?

bob g

Since this old thread has been dredged up again, I thought I would add a comment-

I took some of my valuable time to PM Bob with a somewhat lengthy note and give him some details on (my) background and mfg business, and some specifics of how I and why I run my shop here at home off grid, run machines all day, 6 days a week including specifics for running 3 phase machines off the lowly poor auto alternator.

I find it interesting that nary a peep of a response from him, or a comment here.

Quote from: Ronmar on October 04, 2011, 07:40:31 PM

Really?  There is NO way a 6.5HP will handle 95A@24V?  Have you ever tried it?

4.  If your 6.5HP engine is turning at an RPM where it can make it's rated 6.5HP, it should be capable of sustaining either 24V@95A or 12V@190A...

Best of luck to you, save your pennies for fuel and that new battery bank...

I am most definitely dun!

And dear Ronmar, please buy yourself a 6hp engine and an alt for a few bucks, then put a load on the field running at the required rpm to develop 6hp, to try and pull 95 amps.  It will be money very well spent and a fine educational lesson for you.

I will bow back out now.  Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

offgridpat

this is the first i have heard of you sending me a pm, i thought maybe it was because i have been logged in as the admin
and haven't checked my pm's under mobile_bob

well, i just logged in and checked my pm's, and i find nothing from you?

bear in mind i save all pm's and don't delete them, so ?

perhaps you can go to your sent box and resend the pm?

while my assessment might have been a bit harsh, i stand by what i previously stated, however i would like to modify it a bit
if i may.

in as much as you claim to be able to run all facets of your life, both private and business from a chinese clone 6hp engine driving a
chinese clone delco 10dn or somesuch there is simply now way  you or anyone can do so with the common expectations of most folks.

now the modifier

it is possible that with a battery bank and an inverter, you could with very careful management run all your home stuff as well as your business equipment in a fashion that most folks would find very tedious. 

one would have to manage his loads so carefully that it would rival the Apollo mission that went awry wherein they had to work out a means of getting the boys back with something like a 14amp draw from the moon after a tank mixer blew up.

anything is possible, just like the 200mpg carburetor (which in reality was the 100mpg carb that took on a mythical life of its own). the problem is the same as the carburetor in that the designer freely admitted "while it works, no one will likely want to drive the car it is mounted on"  it simply is too time consuming to micromanage the ridiculously low amount of power available beit a car or a house/business.

rather than folks actually going to the trouble of looking up and reading the patent application, and the booklet on the carb, they simply choose to exaggerate the claim mpg by a factor of 2 or more, and blame big oil for buying the rights and killing the inventor.  this is not responsible in my opinion on many levels.

what you claim is similar, except you as the claimant haven't related to us the minute details of how your system works, what loads are covered, how many loads are provided for at the same time, etc.

simply coming here and claiming that the little engine and puny alternator runs my whole house and my complete machine shop is just not
something that is not going to go unchallenged.

if we don't challenge claims then this forum will soon become a worthless collection of wild ass claims and the signal to noise ratio will make it so no one will take it with any level of seriousness.

i will leave you with this,

we have a member who has a dozer that he has repurposed for another use, it came without an engine so he with a batch of gearing attached a small gas engine (about 6hp or so iirc).  believe me if he was to claim that the dozer goes out and moves dirt in his business everyday,  he would certainly be challenged.  while the engine powers the dozer he also reports that its speed is something slower than a crawl which would be expected.  so yes while it is possible to power a dozer with a 6hp gas engine, you just aren't going to move much dirt with it, certainly not in any amount one might expect with a similar sized dozer.  that member is responsible in that he reported what he did, how he did it and also the true results and outcome of the project.

so far you claim to have a 200mpg carburetor

hopefully this makes sense to you.

btw, merry christmas to you and your family too

bob g

I dunno Bob G., a couple of years ago this could have been easily promoted and readily accepted here:

http://listerengine.com/smf/

I think you did a nice job building this site and attracting critical thinkers to join it.  Hope all is going well with you in your new home and best wishes for a happy holiday season!

Bob B.

Bob... BOB, come on man this not rocket science or the task of building your 200 mpg carb..

Thing is I don't have to prove anything, and I don't have the energy to try to convince people on a forum. I will go out of my way to help someone who has an open mind, and really wants to do something like I'm doing.  "Doing" is the descriptive word here.

It just surprises me to no end, when I read a guy's comment on pulling 95 amps from a 6.5hp and an alternator. Being the fact that I have done that for what- 12 years now, and running one almost daily has shown that you cannot put that kind of load on a little 6.5, without running it the dirt.

20-30 amps yes for about 5 hours on a gallon of fuel. 40 amps definitely but your load is starting to  effect fuel consumption. 50 amps, yes- but now you're putting a grunt load on it. 60 on up, forget it. You need a bigger engine.

So that is what brought me here in the first place.

But running my shop is not the "Space Shuttle" task you are envisioning. It is really quite simple.

Yes I glance over at my inverter while running some CNC programs as I know when I'm pushing it. I glance at it, so I know when to increase the throttle on my 9hp Honda running a Delco alt, to simply keep the amps coming in, ahead of the load being pulled.  That's it.

Are there limitations? Well of course. I have 3 industry standard CNC machines here, and with the old battery bank of 12- L16's ( purchased in 1999) with an Outback inverter, and just the 9hp/alt feeding them, I can't run the machines at one time.

Almost did yesterday. I have 2 Hardinge CNC lathes, and was trying to run 2- low power consuming programs, 2 different tasks one for each machine, and it just almost did it.  

Now part of that problem is the second machine has a big 5hp (3phase) motor which is overkill for my small die parts. It's pulling way more amps just to turn, and I will be swapping that out with a 3hp motor.

But for a one man shop, I can run parts all day with one CNC machine.

But wait... There's more!

On the house system, I have another much newer bank of 12-L16's with a trace SW4000 inverter. I have a line ran to the shop set up to safely pull 35amps @ 120VAC.  With that I run my manual machines- a Bridgeport mill, a Hardinge Chucker lathe, a Logan 11x28" lathe, air compressor, and all bench grinders etc.  These machines run independent of the my other inverter system, which is strictly for the CNC machines.

So anyone knows in the machining business, even with CNC there are what is known as "Second Op" machines. Normally manual machines that are used to finish CNC parts, like debur and edge, tap a hole, etc. While I run parts on CNC, I do second ops all day. I can run 2 of those (manual) machines at once, as I have them modified to run on single phase 120v, and safely pull under my 35 amp circuit.

If I need to run all day, and the house trace system is running low, I simply fire up the little 6.5 (knockoff)/Napa Delco alt. I also have a panel array on that system, and a 16hp (knockoff)/Napa Delco alt, that I pretty much use for backup and fast charging if I need to.  I have a the 16hp set for 55 amps, the 6.5 for 10- 35 amps when I want a light charge, and the shop CNC 9hp (real Honda)/Delco running by throttle and led lights on the Outback inverter. I don't have an amp meter or Trimetric wired in yet.

So it may sound complicated, but I guess you would just have to see me run to understand how it works. I have currently 2 successful products that I ship world wide. As I fully program my CNC machines, and get all of them up to their full production capability, I will need more power.  That's the next step. Can it be done?  You bet.  But for now I squeak out a living, and build a brand name and market with a loyal client following.

If someone genuinely cares to learn how to run 3phase machines this way off grid with an auto alt, I'll be glad to show you. If it's just a point of proving a theory to the experts here, then forget it. I will not waste my time.

Chow Mien,

Pat

Pat

i think you have pretty well proven my point!

you run what you need in your one man shop and are careful to keep it under your 35amp limit, right?

how is that different than the apollo mission doing all it needed to do and stay under their 14amp limit (from memory)?

my point is this, yes you can do a lot with a small power plant and an alternator, i will buy into that, however the way you came across
in the beginning was you were running a complete shop and your house with one 6.5hp honda clone driving a clone delco 10dn, which
technically might be the case under certain circumstances is not exactly the way it was portrayed.

i still have a few issue's with your claim, and i suspect you can further explain the discrepancies.

you work your shop and keep it under the 35amp limit at 120volts AC, that is what?  about 350amps at 12volts or about 175amps at 24volts?

surely you aren't stating that the little engine and delco are covering that sort of load?  surely you are reaching into the battery bank in order
to get anywhere near that kind of power?  i assume this to be the case, and that is still ok, provided everyone understands this reality and the fact that the engine/alternator is going to have to either work its ass off to recharge what was taken out or run excessively long hours to do so.

what you are describing is nothing new or novel, these sorts of engine driven alternators charging battery bank, using reostat field control and throttle control, being modulated by the operator, have been around for decades if not well over a century.  there is nothing inherently wrong with such a system provided you have the time to monitor and keep up with the unit and its charging of the battery bank.

having said all that, in my experience, most folks having spent large sums of money on a battery bank, an inverter system, solar panels, wind power or whatever, "and" coming from a grid connected experience will 99 times out of a hundred find your system to be too crude and time consuming to manage. most folks do not want to be tethered to their systems to the point that they can't leave for a day or two from time to time.  the risk to batteries is high if you walk away and have no real understanding of what your battery bank needs are, which is generally the case for new to offgrid folks who are reported to have an already high battery failure rate generally due to chronic undercharging.
this i would bet a dollar to a dog turd would be the prevailing problem with your system, that being chronic undercharging, because most folks will tire very quickly to the noise of an engine running almost continuously, and will shut down too soon. this will start the death spiral for any battery. 

undercharge your bank a few times and you lose capacity, which shows up as the battery seeming to charge more quickly, which to a newbie will support the notion of reduced run times, and the process continues until such time that the batteries no longer support the load. now he has real problems which require in some cases herculean efforts to correct (if possible).  now he needs long hours of run time at significantly higher voltages (equalize) which will require him to babysit things much more carefully.

this doesn't even address plate corrosion that Lloyd alluded to earlier in this thread, chronic undercharging will result in stratified electrolyte, which means very strong acid at the bottom of the cells which will erode the plates and cannot be recovered.

we haven't even addressed temperature compensation, or thermal runaway concerns.  in the winter when the batteries are cold they must be charged at a higher voltage, conversely in the summer when they are hot they must be charged at a lower voltage.

yes you can do all these things yourself, but why? 

saving 100-350 bucks on a 3 step controller/regulator would seem to be false economy for most folks.

what is your time worth babysitting or having to monitor the charge rate and make field reostat changes?
having to consult temp compensation charts to determine the voltage step point for the ambeint temperatures
and  having to monitor battery temperatures so that you can taper back when things get hot?

i will also restate this

while i understand your system, and yes it can be made to work and will do the job, i would not use it as my primary
charge source and i would never recommend such a system to anyone under any but one circumstance, that being as a backup
charge source that likely would never be called upon to do any real charging.

you might also take a hard look at these controllers, and read the specifications and what they are capable of doing.

balmars "amp manager" function basically is an electronic transmission, in that no matter how you gear the engine to the alternator
or how small your engine is, what rpm you want to run at, or how big or small your alternator is, the amp manager can be used to
tailor or match the engine's available power to the alternator and get the most out of the alternator in the process.

yes you can do this with belts and pulleys, and careful selection of engine's and alternator matching, however what happens when
things change as they will over time? what happens when the engine starts to get tired, or your fuel blend changes, or due to hot summer
conditions the power is reduced?  you are left with either manually reducing the field via the reostat or cranking up the engine speed.

with the amp manager it is a very simple process to tweak the programming and everything goes right on well matched doing max charge with the available power.

also as previously stated the fuel savings alone will quickly pay for a 3 step controller, this alone should be of most importance when it comes to return on investment?   burn less fuel saves you money? reduces engine wear? reduces noise? pollution?

just as you state you have nothing to prove, i too have nothing to prove, however many of us are not simply going to sit back and let
some of your assertions go without question. to do so would not be responsible to the membership and many visitors to this forum.

bob g

Well Bob you make some good points. Pretty much changed the argument all together for lack of a better term, and the argument towards me here has flip flopped more than a politician. That's why I don't have the energy for a forum like this.

By all means, run a controller. Heck- if I had the extra funds and the time to play with one I would love to.

Can you run a shop with CNC machines, and a household bigger than a UnaBomber Shack with an auto alt? You bet. No matter what I do here, it all comes down to 1kW of PV's and the auto alt generating power.  How you wish to run it is your business.

I run our household, computers, printers, LCD flat screen, Hughes Sat, dishwasher, clothes washer, lights, chest freezer, ceiling fans and every modern appliance accept the BIG hogs that you don't run off grid, plus machines all day in the shop for about 3 gallons of fuel per day on average.  No battery damage is happening here. Does everything single thing run at once?  No.

We pick up 3- 6 gallon cans of regular gas every week. That's it.  A lot of money for the price of fuel these days, but for a home and shop producing an income, pretty darn doable for me and as my income and business increases, I will work to improve my systems.  You got to start somewhere.

Next- woodgasification on a practical level including practical fuel production. I'm currently planning and designing systems and a method of running this property without dino fuel when need be.

Oh, by the way...

I see I didn't send you a PM. I sent an email to you at an address that starts with- "notblueeyes"

Pat, Pat, Pat..........

Your quote: I run my shop here at home off grid, run machines all day, 6 days a week including specifics for running 3 phase machines off the lowly poor auto alternator.

And now what is it, Email or PM? ::)

Instead of talking about what your system can do lets see some #'s. Otherwise what are we to believe?

Henry

-Yawn- ... ;)

Are most of you guys here this brilliant? ... ::)

I've got to get to work.

Pat

two things if i might

first, if you have a sent copy of your email please resend it!  my filter probably kept me from noticing it when it came in.
if you can let me know and i will look for it.

secondly, you have to understand most of us here have been around the block more than once, this is not our first rodeo
and not the first time someone has popped in with bold claims and little real info and solid testing to support their claims.

we have had vigorous debate/arguement/discussion over all sorts of subjects relating to power production and all that entails.

if you want to discuss your system and your claims, then by all means lets do it!  

having said that, making rude comments about others "brilliance" does nothing to support your claims, rather it places you in
a category of someone most will not take at all seriously.

remember bold claims require equally strong evidence, and will be challenged.  that is just the way it is here, like it or not.

telling us that your little delco which is capable of producing about a kwatt or power, running 3 hours per day (or 3 gallons per day) will power your house and your machine shop, complete with cnc machines and big screen tv's even with the support of a kwatt of solar panels is a pretty good feat.  so one should expect some rather pointed questions i would think?

perhaps not?

bob g

Funny thing is Pat has himself so well fooled that he can't see why everyone else isn't fooled.

Running a three-phase system on single phase isn't new to most here, what he doesn't get is there is a loss of about 30% of available power on that converter, and that the efficiency hit is even greater.

That's been my whole part of the discussion, is efficiency...which I include as not only the power effy..., but the fuel eff..., the maint. effy...life of equipment eff...

And finally the dollars in-put to the return on investment.

It's clear that Pat has some knowledge of power, but doesn't understand the law of conservation, nor does he have much knowledge of how batteries really work. Anyone with battery knowledge would know what positive grid plat corrosion is.

So I for one have to question his claims, because I have seen his knowledge as written, to come up short of what reality really is.

So my point was to be careful of the recommendations, I'm sure he won't be there to warranty the advise you follow from him.

Lloyd

That's astounding!

Gee Lloyd, you're so clairvoyant that you know how I run 3 phase machines to work on single phase, even to go as far to figure I don't realize what efficiency I must be loosing.

You must have ESP right?

This is why I have a little trouble talking with the Experts like yourself.

Now had you asked once, politely, how I convert these machines to run I would be happy to tell you.  But you instead instigate a debate, based on your vast knowledge.

I don't look at that as being kind or particularly friendly. That went over well on the playground in elementary school, and evidently is alive and well here.

You have a neat little world here in this forum. Stick with it.

I made offers in posts above and will stick with that.

Bob- that email was sent on 10-4-11 from  West Coast Engineering.

Cheers.

if as i assume happened, the email from october ended up in my junk folder and it was long ago purged.

if you have a sent copy or draft, please resend it, i would be most interested in reading it.

bob g

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on December 17, 2011, 01:41:27 PM
That's astounding!

Gee Lloyd, you're so clairvoyant that you know how I run 3 phase machines to work on single phase, even to go as far to figure I don't realize what efficiency I must be loosing.

You must have ESP right?

This is why I have a little trouble talking with the Experts like yourself.

Now had you asked once, politely, how I convert these machines to run I would be happy to tell you.  But you instead instigate a debate, based on your vast knowledge.

I don't look at that as being kind or particularly friendly. That went over well on the playground in elementary school, and evidently is alive and well here.

You have a neat little world here in this forum. Stick with it.

I made offers in posts above and will stick with that.

Bob- that email was sent on 10-4-11 from  West Coast Engineering.

Cheers.

Pat,

You really are very funny.

Why all the enigma...if you really have a better mouse trap, and want to share it then share it. But you see you really come here and say this and this, but don't really say how and why....then when someone says hey wait that defies laws of reality...you don't back it up...but claim you could but it would be a waste of time, or you're just to busy to deal with it.

Get it all out in the open.

But I'd say you have well demonstrated that you real knowledge of how things work is already demonstrated.

If you have ever spent anytime on this forum, you would know that there are many here helping many. If someone, doesn't matter who, states something out of norm, and someone says prove it, and it's provable...they do.

You not so much.

Lloyd

Quote from: OFFGriddnPat on December 17, 2011, 09:01:01 AM
Well Bob you make some good points. Pretty much changed the argument all together for lack of a better term, and the argument towards me here has flip flopped more than a politician. That's why I don't have the energy for a forum like this.

Please explain...hell go one step further and show us what you mean.

I spent the afternoon looking for a flipflop....

Didn't find it...So enlighten us.

I don't love fried Crow....but I do eat it when required...I'm sure you would love to feed it to me...SO Here IS, your chance.

L

Enough time wasted trying to enlighten offgridpat - hopeless, gee.

WOW, I just stumbled across this one and I had to pop up a bowl of popcorn to get me through all this.
The one thing I got out of it is that stuart, I mean Pat most likely can't pull a consistant 95A out of his 6.5ph Honda because his delco is very inefficient. A more efficient alt better designed for the task wold have no problem.
Pat, if you have a better mouse trap then by all means, please share. I really would like to know.
Later  

Greetings Pat.
I too live off grid. I would really like to know how you are converting from single phase of an invertor to 3 phase. I am currently running a ST head off of a Kubota tractor. Sort of a long story of being broke and having unfortunate breakdowns that got me there. Right now I'm simply using 120vac but as you know can go to 220 single phase with the gen head.
Ken Gardner

Quote from: akghound on December 18, 2011, 07:47:00 AM
Greetings Pat.
I too live off grid. I would really like to know how you are converting from single phase of an invertor to 3 phase. I am currently running a ST head off of a Kubota tractor. Sort of a long story of being broke and having unfortunate breakdowns that got me there. Right now I'm simply using 120vac but as you know can go to 220 single phase with the gen head.
Ken Gardner

Awesome Ken,

I think off gridders are the some of the last rugged individualists left in America. Folks who don't want to be coddled or held by the hand, and have no problem putting out a little extra effort to make things work.

Money is always tight, and one thing many people don't realize is when you live off grid in a remote area, you need backup systems. Backup generators and equipment. I follow close to a 3 backup rule. This is why I run alternators for generators as I can have backups ready to roll on a moment's notice, and afford to do so. I care for my batteries based on the manufacturers suggestions. And yes I do it manually for the most part, which requires attention and monitoring, unless the suns strong and in that case, my house system float charging is controlled by the Trace. If someone would not be able to do that, I suggest a charge controller like these guys suggest or inverter based programmable charging.

I don't convert single phase power from an inverter to 3 phase as a whole. What I do is convert my machines to run on single phase, all accept in case I want to run an existing 3 phase AC motor, then I use a VFD (variable frequency drive).

Most all commercial metal shop industry standard CNC machines (computer numerical control), are 3phase simply because all industrial shops are wired for 3 phase. It's standard. Thing is the only thing that's 3 phase on most of these machines is the the main spindle drive motor, and the coolant pumps. That's it!

All other systems- the computer controller, the servo drive amps are all 110VAC, as most all servo axes drives are DC motors.

So- what you do is swap out the coolant pump for a 110VAC pump, and address the main spindle motor issue, and then you can take advantage of a single phase 110VAC inverter and use it's pure amperage to run your machines.

Spindle drive motors are either AC or DC. If you have a DC motor, you're already off to the races, because most all DC motors are powered by a servo drive amp that is 110VAC. No conversion needed, as with my Hardinge CHNC. It has a large Porter Peerless DC spindle motor. There's 3phase connections on the huge control panel input of this machine, and it ultimately is all routed 110VAC to everything but the coolant pump.

All you have to do is have a 110VAC inverter large enough to handle the amp draw, and a battery bank large enough, coupled with enough amps coming in to keep ahead. It's exactly like water being poured from a pitcher- to keep it at a certain level, as much needs to at least be coming in as going out.

This machine running with my most power intensive part turning programs draws no more than 40 amps, and that's only for short period peaks.  With my Outback inverter that's rated somewhere around 60 amps and 12 L16's (old worn L16's I may add) allows a 9hp Honda engine, turning a Delco alt to run CNC shop machines. And do it with 2 gallons per day on average.

That's not efficient enough for some guys here I gather, but it's plenty for me, for now. And I think for less than $10 in fuel, it's till cheaper than the cost of industrial 3phase commercial shop power.  Not bad for an off gridder.

If you wish Ken, I will go into the other 3 phase drive motor conversion options for peak efficiency that I have done and use here (that means the lowest power consumption and costs, and replacement/ maintenance costs), for lathes, mills, manual or CNC  that allow you to run from a single phase 110VAC inverter system, and yes I dare say a Napa alternator that cost $40, and lasts years. 3 years to be exact on the very same one I use for my shop with the 9hp Honda. 7 years is my longest running delco with this type of purpose. My first one.

I've got to get the wood stove fired up in the shop

Pat-

No doubt the delco is working for you, but at a cost. Lets look at this another way: You certainly want to maximize your profit. What if you could produce the same usable power for half the fuel cost you currently spend? You say you used the same delco for 7 years. How much did you spend on fuel in that 7 years? Divide that in half, subtract the price of a more efficient power producer and that is your potential loss. I believe that is the root of this whole discussion. It's not can you but it's should you. It's finding the most efficient path to take. If you plan on doing this for many more years you would benefit financially from generating power in a more effecient manner. The delco should be plan C in your 3 tier failure plan. It certainly is a way to get there but at an uneccesary cost.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not kicking on you and I hope you do not feel that I am. I'm just responding to what I read.
Dave

Pat it's clear you don't understand the Law of Conservation. Second you should of stated how I converted my three phase machines to single phase machines....not how I run my three phase machines on single phase.

Next commercial 3 phase is an increase in efficiency, so converting to single phase is a big hit. You would have done well better to use a 3 phase inverter, rather then convert the machines to single phase, it might have even been cheaper in total costs.

The table below show the difference between how you system compares to how my system runs, and the associated costs.

My system runs well below the manufactures ratings for both the engine, and the alternator. Because I  also capture waste heat for domestic hot water, it increases my total efficiency. With your air cooled engines you can't capture waste heat

Gen lloyd's Pat's 1 Pat's 2

Chg. V 14.8 29 29

Chg. A 250 30 95

Watts 6500 870 2755

Runtime 1.5 5 2.5

watts p/run time 9750 4350 6887.5

KwHr 9.75 4.35 6.8875

Lts p/run time 1 3.73 9.325

watts p/Ltr 9750 1166.219839 738.6058981

fuel costs p/run $0.67 $3.70 $9.25

fuel costs Kwhr $0.07 $0.85 $1.34

Huh?  What does the crimped metal base at the bottom of the slug do ?   Is that a "gas check" ?