Guys
Here is a pix of the beginning.
Direct injected aluminum piston just under 5.125 inches in diameter and about 6.375 stroke approx.
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4759&g2_serialNumber=2)
Now back to the shop for more measurements this time I will write them down. ;D
Billswan
Ok guys
Here is a problem I am having with my 16/1.
Am running it on wmo and so far not so good. I thought the direct injection would help it seems I could be wrong but have a couple of things to do to it that might help.
The injector tip carbons over faster than the 10/1 IDI ever thought of.
I have a 205 degree thermo and even went out and bought a new thermo to make sure that the motor is up to temp and all is well in that department.
Now during my partial disassemble and clean up I found the spill timeing to be farther advanced than the 20 degrees that I thought it should be. I would guess it was about 25 degrees.
Thinking that it should be 20 that is where it is now. Maybe I am wrong and 25 is more right?
Am running it at about 900 rpm and about 7000 watts.
Below is a post that dieselgman put up about fuel consumption and I could not help but notice the timing of the different engines. The 16/2 is set so much earlier than the 8/1.
Of course the 16/1 came with only a reprint of the old original lister manual and no mention of what we might expect the bigger 16 hp version to be set to.
Anyone have any Idea?
This getting WMO to run at about 80 % is driving me NUTS...........
(http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1683.0;attach=3389;image)
How and why does the 850rpm 7.5 hp air cooled VA stand 30 degrees will my 16/1 handle that?
Sure would increase combustion pressure and heat 10 more degrees of advance
Billswan
Bill, I wonder if the injector pump lobe is the same? exactly when the initial crack opens may not be so important since very little fuel is delivered in the initial degrees as it ramps up. If it is the same lobe profile then that difference in start point is amazing. The two higher HP engines also have a longer stroke I believe, so that would effect piston dwell time , acceleration, and expansion rate so perhaps move the optimum fuel delivery map.
Intuitively WMO would suggest having a longer ignition lag and need earlier timing, but I have 0 experience burning it. Somewhere I have seen charts showing different fuel delivery maps along with peak combustion pressures, temperatures and exhaust temperatures, torque values etc. Cant remember where though there is some such info on sites selling performance mods to injector pumps and software chips. Sure as heck none of those cover waste motor oil! To say the least, you are a bit into uncharted waters!
Crofter
Well I have no Idea what the original lister engines used for lobe profiles on their various engines but I would be willing to bet a dollar the India clones all use the same camshaft. I know the shaft diameter is the same in both my 10/1 and the 16/1 makes me worry about another camshaft failure in this 16/1 because of the higher direct injector cracking set pressure.
As far as different strokes on the twins there I know for a fact that that is not true. As a 12/2 is the exact same bore and stroke as a 6/1 and according to the chart the timing is the same. But he 16/2 has a different more advanced timing compared to a 8/1 and they are the same bore and stroke as the 6/1 only difference is the aluminum piston versus cast iron and the higher rpm gives the more power.
Now the Va I know little of and the timing specks caught my eye. Better fuel economy also...........
Now if what I have wrote is incorrect please anyone out there set me straight!!
Am thinking I will have to reset the spill timing maybe I messed it up we all know how messy that process is........
Billswan
when the injection starts, which might be as early on some engines as 30 degree's, there is what is known as ignition lag
which can be as much as 25 degrees, making the actual ignition about 5 degrees btdc
there are all sorts of things that effect ignition delay, fuel composition, combustion chamber characteristics, injector pressure/pattern,
coolant temps, and as Crofter relates "shape or profile" of the cam lobe.
no matter what the spill timing spec, most diesels end up with ignition taking place at about 5-6 degree btdc as evidenced by a sharp
pressure rise in the cylinder/combustion chamber.
you can probably play around with changing the timing a bit, however i would be hesitant to make changes over a couple degree's without
some very careful observation, such as running under a load at the new advanced timing and checking the bottom end brg for signs of stress
fwiw
bob g
Bill, isnt the 16 a longer stroke crank? Yes the camshaft diameter is fixed unless you really, really go to a lot of trouble but it would be easy for them to have slipped on a differently profiled lobe. We might have to get that oldstylelister guy onto it, Lol! I was just trying to hypothesize why such a great increase in spill timing lead. Do you know the injection pump #. I can easily get the # off my 10-1 to see if it is the same. Just thinking here that the same pump on a larger displacement cylinder might need a bit more of a head start. Strange!
It sure would be nice to have an acoustic timing light that would pinpoint both injector crack and main ignition event. That, along with a quick responce Exhaust gas temp readout would take so much of the head (or arse) scratching out of just what you are into.
VA is air-cooled direct injection. I may be able to find the camshaft timing spec chart for it, not certain. what matters more is valve lobe geometry and timing... the fuel pump lobe ramp is very steep and sustained on these cams, injector pressure changes should NOT present more than a miniscule difference in camshaft loading. The change in pump plunger diameter (and thus fuel delivery volume) will differentiate a higher horsepower setup, not necessarily injector pressures.
dieselgman
billswan,
Regarding your fuel and excessive carbon/coke on the injector:
Just a thought....the direct injection design may be working against you. If the fuel is not thin enough, the spray pattern may become quite abnormal.
Anything from droplets to stringy spray patterns can be experienced instead of a finely atomized spray.
Result: Incomplete combustion.
Perhaps consider thinning with diesel, kerosene, or RUG during your experiments. Start with 5% thinner and work up.
DI heads and straight waste WVO or WMO is a difficult match IMHO.
veggie
Billswan,
I just dropped in for a minute. I usually don't have much to say and I will be up front saying I have "no" experience with anything but diesel fuel in the engines. With that said, I do know a lot about cam timing, turbo boost pressures, peak cylinder pressures, fuel pump injection timing and etc..
I definitely would not run 25 degrees on the 16/1, like I said other fuels could be different. On my 14/1, I now run it at 850 RPM and the pump timing is set at 16 degrees BTDC and I run it at a maximum of 4,800 watts. It could pull 6,000 watts but the power pulses you can feel is not good for the engine, 80% load maximum.
The injection pumps on the 12/1, 14/1 and 16/1 are the bigger 034 models and the 6/1, 8/1 and 10/1 is the smaller 032 models.
I myself like retarded timing. What I mean is the most lazy timing "I can get away with and still have proper burn rates". To achieve this you need an almost constant load, to keep cylinder pressures and temperatures elevated to promote proper burn.
There is a saying with us building diesel engines, "The earlier the injection timing is set, the sooner the next engine rebuild". This shouldn't be taken out of context, just run as much timing as what is "needed" and not more for your fuel.
I can time engines by ear and I know someone is going to say that's not how to do it. But if you played with camshafts and pump timing as much as I did, you could do it as well.
You can hear it and you can feel it, with the proper timing, at each RPM zone. Set the engine speed and a constant load (maybe a DC load or heating element?) can help you really dial the timing in, for you.
The problem with the 16/1 is that is has a large displacement and a greater mechanical advantage long stroke crankshaft (like placing a "longer" pry bar on something) the internal components are still mainly 6/1 parts. This increased pressure (more downward force) from the increased displacement and greater leverage applied from the crankshaft ,can do a lot of damage, if not operated at optimum tune. That is why I'm so conservative with my 14/1's power output.
This is just my input and with burning other fuels might be miss informative. I just don't want you to tear apart your piston, rod and mains due to your engine compressing a burning fuel to early BTDC. Remember, the best burn rates and set timing, are when the peak cylinder pressures are achieved at 5 degrees ATDC. This would provide the highest efficiency.
Good luck,
Diesel Guy
Quote from: Crofter on February 09, 2011, 07:59:14 AM
Bill, isnt the 16 a longer stroke crank? Yes the camshaft diameter is fixed unless you really, really go to a lot of trouble but it would be easy for them to have slipped on a differently profiled lobe. We might have to get that oldstylelister guy onto it, Lol! I was just trying to hypothesize why such a great increase in spill timing lead. Do you know the injection pump #. I can easily get the # off my 10-1 to see if it is the same. Just thinking here that the same pump on a larger displacement cylinder might need a bit more of a head start. Strange!
It sure would be nice to have an acoustic timing light that would pinpoint both injector crack and main ignition event. That, along with a quick responce Exhaust gas temp readout would take so much of the head (or arse) scratching out of just what you are into.
Crofter
Yes my 16/1 is a lot longer stroke than a 16/2 is what I was referring to in my post above.
The pump on my 16/1 is a 034 and for some reason the pump on my old 10/1 is also a 034.
Don't have any fancy diesel timing tools only trial and error.
Veggie
Have been trying to run 80 % oil and 20% number 2 diesel.
Ran the thing out of fuel a couple hours ago and cleaned the injector and mixed up a new batch.
60 % waste hydralic oil
35 % diesel no 2
5 % RUG
will see how that mix works.............
Billswan
Quote from: Diesel Guy on February 09, 2011, 08:53:54 AM
Billswan,
I just dropped in for a minute. I usually don't have much to say and I will be up front saying I have "no" experience with anything but diesel fuel in the engines. With that said, I do know a lot about cam timing, turbo boost pressures, peak cylinder pressures, fuel pump injection timing and etc..
I definitely would not run 25 degrees on the 16/1, like I said other fuels could be different. On my 14/1, I now run it at 850 RPM and the pump timing is set at 16 degrees BTDC and I run it at a maximum of 4,800 watts. It could pull 6,000 watts but the power pulses you can feel is not good for the engine, 80% load maximum.
The injection pumps on the 12/1, 14/1 and 16/1 are the bigger 034 models and the 6/1, 8/1 and 10/1 is the smaller 032 models.
I myself like retarded timing. What I mean is the most lazy timing "I can get away with and still have proper burn rates". To achieve this you need an almost constant load, to keep cylinder pressures and temperatures elevated to promote proper burn.
There is a saying with us building diesel engines, "The earlier the injection timing is set, the sooner the next engine rebuild". This shouldn't be taken out of context, just run as much timing as what is "needed" and not more for your fuel.
I can time engines by ear and I know someone is going to say that's not how to do it. But if you played with camshafts and pump timing as much as I did, you could do it as well.
You can hear it and you can feel it, with the proper timing, at each RPM zone. Set the engine speed and a constant load (maybe a DC load or heating element?) can help you really dial the timing in, for you.
The problem with the 16/1 is that is has a large displacement and a greater mechanical advantage long stroke crankshaft (like placing a "longer" pry bar on something) the internal components are still mainly 6/1 parts. This increased pressure (more downward force) from the increased displacement and greater leverage applied from the crankshaft ,can do a lot of damage, if not operated at optimum tune. That is why I'm so conservative with my 14/1's power output.
This is just my input and with burning other fuels might be miss informative. I just don't want you to tear apart your piston, rod and mains due to your engine compressing a burning fuel to early BTDC. Remember, the best burn rates and set timing, are when the peak cylinder pressures are achieved at 5 degrees ATDC. This would provide the highest efficiency.
Good luck,
Diesel Guy
Diesel guy
Cannot argue with anything you wrote.
But I am into these engines because I have lots of oil to burn and want to find a way to burn it if it costs me another cylinder assembly so be it that is just part of the process of trial and error. But if it costs me a crank and a rod well now that would hurt.......... :'( :'(
I rechecked the spill timing this morning and I had thought it was at 20 but I had messed up and it was at 17 degrees. Now this motor doesn't burn straight diesel without making the tip dirty so either the compression ratio is to low or the timing is late.
Does your 14/1 run a clean injector tip on straight diesel?
If so do you know what the compression ratio is or the bump clearance, my bump is .067 inch.
By the way I have increased the timing some I will check the injector later today when the 5 gallon batch I mixed up is gone will let everyone know late tonight what the result was. The timing increase did not seen to be noticeable to my ear so will see what happens.
Billswan
My 10-1 also has the 034 pump. My spill timing was something a bit less than 20 degrees but since I am running 900 instead of the max 1000 rpm I did not bother resetting it to the manual recommendation of 20 deg.
I agree with Veggie, IDI engines tend to fair better with alternative fuels.
Warming the wmo would help. Also starting on diesel then changing to wmo when the engine is warm.
How do you filter your wmo and to what micron?
Quote from: Bottleveg on February 09, 2011, 02:13:39 PM
I agree with Veggie, IDI engines tend to fair better with alternative fuels.
Warming the wmo would help. Also starting on diesel then changing to wmo when the engine is warm.
How do you filter your wmo and to what micron?
Well always start on diesel and turn over to wmo when at full temp or close to it. And stop on diesel.
Series of filters ending with 10 micron into a barrel and so far everything has settled for almost a year then through another set of filters ending at 6 microns into the day tank.
The pump and injector on the old 10/1 seemed to do ok just wore out he sleeve and piston + rings.
My old 10/1 was idi and it struggled on wmo but might have done a little better.
Billswan
Well Guys
The next 5 gallons of mix has gone through. as I posted above the mix was
60 % waste hydralic oil
35 % diesel no 2
5 % RUG
I had jacked the spill timing ahead from 17 way the heck out to 26 degrees. And yes I know that is a huge jump but I figured what the heck my lively hood does not rest on this engine it is more of a working hobby so if I wreak it well some of you told me so, I know.
Now the results........ well the engine ran mostly just as before but I did notice that the burn was better as the exhaust smelled more like the exhaust off the old 10/1 that had the compression jacked up. But the injector still carboned over as I started to notice blacker exhaust so stopped it and cleaned the carbon off the tip. There is not much left to do other than to start closing up the bump clearance.
I have mixed up a batch of 50/50 and it is now digesting that but I am thinking that there is not much hope for this engine design, direct injected I mean. Short of oil processing the cognos way.
Billswan
Bill, can us tell us anything about the oil?
Previous data on this forum has shown that certain synthetics actually resist combustion.
WVO is a very inconsistent fuel. Do you have any idea as to the makeup of the batches you are getting ?
Some deposits should be expected but yours seem to be appearing a bit too early.
BTW, others can correct me if I'm wrong on this but 26 deg. advance timing might be a bit excessive (even damaging).
You don't want to hammer the piston on the way up.
For what it's worth, on my
Slow speed Changfa project which was also a direct injection engine, I retarded the timing 2 degrees to 16 BTC.
(Caveat....mine was burning a WVO blend). RPMs were 900 - 1000
veggie
Yes veggie
The whole 55 gallon barrel was oil out of the transmission of a john deere farm tractor.
The oil is both a gear oil and a hydraulic fluid. It probably has lots of extreme pressure additives and anti chatter additives to make wet brakes work smoothly. As for any other additives maybe cognos will read this and give us a hint.
The oil is called hy-gard a JD brand for there transmissions.
It sure looks great clean no carbon like engine oil but I believe the engine will fair better if I run Waste engine oil.
By the way I know what you mean about damage to the piston and I will risk it.
I remember playing with an old farm tractor running it on my dyno and playing with ignition timing and watching HP output and its relation to timing. And I sure found out that more timing is not better. I actually got more usable hp with less timing advance on that particular tractor. Turns out the critter was so old it was meant to run on tractor fuel an old half gas half kerosene type of fuel. Well that old critter already had lots of advance to get that slow burning fuel to pull. Turned out when those were run on gasoline they already are to far in advance and more just produced less power as the piston was still coming up and the fire was already well ahead fighting the process.
Billswan
Well, in my opinion, there's part of your problem.
Gear oil is too viscous and hydraulic oil burns like crap.
Standard gear oil is 90 weight. Far to thick for the micro ports on a DI injector.
Wouldn't you have to add a lot of thinner agent to get that stuff to spray properly through an injector.?
If rcavictim could pipe in, I think he used to run his engine on hydraulic oil.? Did not have good results.
veggie
I have some hydraulic oil here that I got for free which just does not work as diesel engine fuel, even cut 25%with RUG. It has the sulfur smell of EP hypoid gear lube oil but is about the viscocity of #20 motor oil. As soon as it gets to the injector of my running and up to temp JD175A the engine loses about 25% power and starts to smoke and stink. Not much longer and the engine wants to die completely. This is with a nichrome injector heater that allows the engine to run great on some really thick oil I have that is about equivalent to somewhere between STP oil treatment and molasses at room temp, but which burns absolutely clean in this engine straight uncut with the same heated injector.
The fellow I got this oil from used it in his 1 ton Ford diesel truck and ended up having to buy new injectors. I am fairly certain it has synthetic additives, perhaps even silicone chemistry.
I plan to try it as a low friction gear lube in my wind turbine for cold weather performance.
Veggie, he means that the John Deere spec'd stuff FUNCTIONS as both gear oil and hyd fluid, it's not a mixture of both.
Run the wrong stuff for long and you'll be replacing a very expensive ring gear and pinion. My Old JD Hoe has to have the same high dollar stuff.
Ron
I've got 150 gals of mystery hyd oil to burn, I will eventually get around to it.
It may end up on a brush pile!
Bill,
Synthetic oils don't burn well. Even my pressure jet burner has a recommendation for diesel dilution if using synthetic oil.
You don't say whether you are filtering with sock or pumped cartridge filter.
Make a batch with regular wmo and filter it to 1 or ½ micron with a cartridge filter.
the oil is about 20 w and is filtered through spin on filters meant for secondary diesel finishing with 6 micron as the finest. The older farm tractors filter to only 10 micron so I figured 6 would be good enough. Tractors built in the 70's and 80's but also including one jd I have built in 97.
I do have a heater on the WMO filter and it uses the bypass water and the thermo is at 205 degrees f.
by the way the 50/50 mix is also to much as the tip carboned over with that to.
Next batch running now is 33% oil 66% diesel..................
Off for a long day at the farm be back late............
Billswan
Bill
What I'm wondering is if the deposit on the injector tip is being caused by the non-oil particles in the wmo. If this is so then finer filtering should improve things.
I'm not sure, it's just an idea. As I've said before, my 8/1 has been running on ½ micron filtered oil. I have no deposit on the injector but I haven't got that many hours on it so I can't give any valid results.
The deposits I've found on my injector, when burning WHO, are white on the inside.
Well guys
Have run 3 small 3 gallon batches of 1/3 WHO to 2/3 no 2 diesel.
And all with the same results the injector tip is almost totally covered over with light colored carbon and when you knock it out of the hole the piston cup under it is very white. That is after each 3 gallon batch!!
For those that might not be following as close as some this is a direct injected critter.
Will let it rest for a few hours as the hour meter has reached the second oil change and the farm is calling to me again. Got to go finish up a job that is only a month behind from all the cold weather.
Lots of much warmer weather next week.
Will push aside that barrel of oil and go back to black mystery oil. Hard to believe that clean oil runs worse than black carbon loaded stuff.
So far the direct injected 16/1 is starting to look like a worse failure than the 10/1 at least that engine made it to 1775 hours before the end.
I tried to call sam crosby for some advise and check on parts availability but all I got was his answering machine with the message he is out of 6/1's. Will have to try again.
Billswan
Billswan,
I would suggest that the recent batch of oil is the cause of your problems. Not the timing, and not the engine design.
I recently had access to 200 gallons of new oil (still in sealed pails) for use as fuel.
Upon investigating the oil's specs, it turned out to have a flash point of 550F.
Fresh clear new oil yes....but it would have burned like crap.
I had to turn it down.
veggie
Guys
Got the oil changed and mixed up a totally new batch of fuel.
Pushed aside the WHO and went back to black mystery oil and diesel at 1/3 oil and 2/3 diesel.
That 3 gallon batch went through real well and the injector tip did have some white ash stuck to it but the hole in the head was mostly clear not covered over like when running the hydraulic oil.
Have now mixed another 3 gallon batch at 50/50, will see if that works also.
Billswan
Quote from: Bottleveg on February 10, 2011, 12:18:48 PM
Bill
What I'm wondering is if the deposit on the injector tip is being caused by the non-oil particles in the wmo. If this is so then finer filtering should improve things.
I'm not sure, it's just an idea. As I've said before, my 8/1 has been running on ½ micron filtered oil. I have no deposit on the injector but I haven't got that many hours on it so I can't give any valid results.
Bottleveg
Yes it would be nice to be able to filter that fine but am not set up to do it so will stick with what I am using for now.
May be for next heating season. The shop heating season here in minnesota is probably down to 4 to 5 weeks.
I am thinking of just getting a regular waste oil burner and using that instead.
Might get me some 6/1 parts and fix up my 10/1 as a high rpm cast iron piston thumper if I can work out the balance and use it as a idi test bed and try to get that to run on WMO. The ring lands would be much tougher for when all that abrasive ash gets in there :o :o
Billswan
Ok the 50/50 batch went through with reasonable results there was some white ash on the injector tip but not too bad, the hole the tip fits in was clear also.
Tried to take a pix of the injector but it was to poor to post.
Have now moved on to 2/3 mystery oil and 1/3 diesel same 3 gallon batch will see how that works.
Billswan
Well this 16/1 just don't like wmo.
Got a call through to sam crosby today he is the guy that sold it to me.
He said I need to heat the injector line.
Well from what I have read that might or might not work.
So what the heck I am game I will give it a try.
Looked up rope heaters at Omega.com and found 2 that might work.
1 model FGR-030 3 feet long 125 watt 120 volt and 12$ cost.
2 model htc-030 3 feet long 64 watt 120 volt and 26 $ cost.
So which is better 1 or 2? Any injector line heater guru's out there?
I know I can use a light dimmer to derate either one but is 64 watts enough?
Maybe a longer heater?
Any advise is welcome 0 experience with rope heaters.
Billswan
I'm currently using a fattywagon type line heater wrapped around my injection line to help heat the WVO. If I understand it correctly, they draw about around 8 amps at 12v (listed as a 100 watt heater).
It gets my line pretty toasty.
I couldn't tell you how hot the line gets, but my thinking is, the hotter the better.
My fuel used to sit in restaurant fryers at over 300 degrees F, so I can't imagine I'm overheating it in the line.
IME it isn't the injector line you need to heat, it is the injector body itself. If you heat the oil in the line if it hits a cool injector body (maybe 170F) it will turn cold and thick again from the relatively cool temperature of the injector body. You want to get that injector body up to 300-350F. To do this you don't need 3 feet of heat rope, you need 6 inches and about 100-120 watts. After the engine is stable under load you can back off the injector heat a bit. I start my tiny JD175A on diesel and get the engine up to near operating temperature, then I turn on the injector heat at 100 watts and minutes later introduce the fuel changeover to heavy oil. After a while at running temp I back the injector heat down to about 60 watts and leave it there. I turn off the heater and switch to diesel again to do a flushout cooldown shutdown. If you shut down with a hot injector it may stick shut.
I have not tried WMO yet but have successfully used some thick as molasses oil I acquired that burns really clean by this method.