I am seriously starting to consider listeroid engines for cogeneration both at my large industrial shop and at my house. I can get away with whatever I want down at the shop, but I live in a neighborhood with a strict HOA policy, certain noise restrictions, and quite frankly a lot of complainers for neighbors. My lot in suburbia is about 70x100, which doesn't give a whole lot of space between me and the neighbors.
The question is, could I feasibly install a listeroid engine in a confined neighborhood like this, without getting a ton of complaints about noise and exhaust? I would probably install it in a dedicated shed to keep the noise down. Actually I have a 10x10x10 pit dug in my yard that would make a great engine basement. One of my main concerns is the exhaust smell, especially if I am burning WMO. If I do this is my house/neighborhood going to start smelling like a truck stop?
The smel is i think the most difficult thing to hide .
Quote from: wiebe on January 21, 2011, 02:31:54 AM
The smel is i think the most difficult thing to hide .
What if I installed an exhaust sytem that lets the exhuast out at about 30' off the ground, at the top of my roof. (like my water heater vent) Would that effectively bring the "smell level" above ground level, where nobody should notice?
I also wonder if maybe I installed a cat, and some kind of exhaust blower to dilute the exhaust gasses with air before they escape?
Another thought, are there any catalytic converters or exhaust filters that could be fitted in a subruban environment to reduce the smell and the smoke as much as possible?
Down at my shop I have a wood stove exhaust where I could send the exhaust gasses and probably billow as much black smoke as I want.
Not only smell , depending on soil type and your mounting methods you could be rattling the cups on your neighbors shelves. These one lung diesels shake things about a bit.
Keith
Quote from: KeithO on January 21, 2011, 03:07:46 AM
Not only smell , depending on soil type and your mounting methods you could be rattling the cups on your neighbors shelves. These one lung diesels shake things about a bit.
Keith
Yeah, I definately want to attenuate the sound as much as possible, as specially the low frequency noises. I think I could come up with a significatnly heavy concrete pad to mount it on as well as concrete walls around it to dampen the sound. I would also only be running it during the day time peak power hours, which is the least likely to bother the neighbors.
I didn't mean sound , I'm talking about mechanical vibration.
My Ruston 6Hp is sitting on about 1.5 tons of concrete on clay/silt type soil and runs at about 1150 rpm .
At 20 ft ft from the house it can gently shake our kitchen utensils or bottles in the fridge under load.
Solid mounted with the crank pointed at the house
Cheers
Keith
One of my customers lives in a large subdivision and has a 6/1 installed in his garage. He has the area where the engine is well sound insulated and has put on a good muffler system. His exhaust vents about 20 feet up in the air. When running all you can hear is a slight "puffing" sound, if you didn't know where it was coming from you'd never find it. I don't think his neighbours even know he has an engine and he runs it quite a lot. Smell from Veggie is not unpleasant (not like diesel!) and dissipates very quickly.
In a nutshell, it can be done.
Bio
Start at your shop and get the thing working the way you want before you even think about putting it into a residential setting.
Diesel exhaust coming from a roid on WMO at say 85% oil is NOXIOUS stuff and can be noticed at quite a distance. If the winds are just right. Won't take long for your neighbors to get some government man to shut you down for some thing.
That is if you can control the vibration and the exhaust thump.
The exhaust on my 10/1 at the end was dirty enough to plug up a common car muffler to the point it popped from pressure and the pulses so high priced mufflers and or an expansion chamber are more costs.
Billswan
Quote from: billswan on January 21, 2011, 06:27:36 AM
Bio
Start at your shop and get the thing working the way you want before you even think about putting it into a residential setting.
That is most likely what I will do. Electricity costs are really getting out of hand there and my only heat source is electric resistance too. ::)
How many people here are running listers semi-close to neighbors?
It is my experience that if you live in the sort of neighborhood you describe, you may be able to spend a lot of time and money and get your super-quiet, smell-supressed plant up and running - for a while.
Once *any* neighbor finds out - sees you dealing with large quantities of stored oil, smells something odd, haers a noise, sees you working on it with the door open - etc - you're done, if someone wants you done.
And then your hard work and the money will be gone... so take a good hard look at what you are trying to hide... and determine if you are willing to shut it down for good if someone complains...
Assuming you have natural gas I'd plan to run on that. From my experience with LP fumigation (don't have nat gas here) the exhaust smells fairly nice and the ignition even seems quite a bit gentler. What is your objective with the home system? The thumps are hard to hide. Mine is on a good chunk of concrete in sandstone/rocky soil and it does rattle the dishes in the kitchen sometimes.
Pretend you are cooking drugs.......
Pump the exhaust down the sewer ;D
When I first built my genset, a direct drive Xing Dong S1100 with one of Georgia Generator's 12kw heads on a 4"X8" oak frame, sitting on the attached garage floor, it would make the whole house "rumble" and vibrate. The wife wasn't too keen with that, so I bought 4 CHEAP pneumatic tires and wheels from the local Tractor Supply and that solved the rumbling and shaking. I can't really move it around on them, they try to fold up, but it does isolate and stop the vibration and thumping.
Just a thought, I have no idea how it would affect a low rpm setup.
Ron
Quote
I also wonder if maybe I installed a cat, and some kind of exhaust blower to dilute the exhaust gasses with air before they escape?
Nothing helps when our neighbors cat sprays. Dilution is not enough.
[/quote]
Nothing helps when our neighbors cat sprays. Dilution is not enough.
[/quote]
Aw! Booo! Hisssss! Horrible play on words. But TRUE.
Ron
Quote from: cognos on January 21, 2011, 08:58:23 AM
It is my experience that if you live in the sort of neighborhood you describe, you may be able to spend a lot of time and money and get your super-quiet, smell-supressed plant up and running - for a while.
Once *any* neighbor finds out - sees you dealing with large quantities of stored oil, smells something odd, haers a noise, sees you working on it with the door open - etc - you're done, if someone wants you done.
And then your hard work and the money will be gone... so take a good hard look at what you are trying to hide... and determine if you are willing to shut it down for good if someone complains...
Well, that sounds about right...but then again I wonder if any of this is technically "illegal" as long as I'm not backfeeding the grid? I mean, I have the right to to idle a diesel pickup in my driveway 24/7 if I want to. I would keep the oil supply at the house rather small, less than 55gallons, with the main source at my shop.
Quote from: Tom on January 21, 2011, 11:22:41 AM
What is your objective with the home system? The thumps are hard to hide. Mine is on a good chunk of concrete in sandstone/rocky soil and it does rattle the dishes in the kitchen sometimes.
Converting worthless black oil into electricity and heat. Maybe I would be better off with a Changfoid in a residential environment?
Converting worthless black oil into electricity and heat. Maybe I would be better off with a Changfoid in a residential environment?
Not a lot. Wanna hear a barrel of railroad spikes falling down a hill?
Ron
Quote from: vdubnut62 on January 21, 2011, 09:55:52 PM
Not a lot. Wanna hear a barrel of railroad spikes falling down a hill?
Ron
I know they're loud...but less "thumping" like listeroids are known for? Certain types of sounds are easier to cover than others...
My 6/1 listeroid is NOT the best balanced engine around, but mounted to a cubic yard of concrete, the vibrations are only noticeable 40 feet away because I am listening for them. I live in a residential neighborhood, and no one knows when I'm running my engine. Exhaust can be muffled to a 'whoof, whoof, whoof' fairly easily, and the low speed of the engine just doesn't produce NASTY sounds like a higher speed engine does. I truly believe that the lower the speed of your engine (lister, listeroid, whitte, etc.) the more neighbor friendly it becomes.
Quote from: BioHazard on January 21, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Hiding a powerplant in a residential neighborhood?
That's exactly my current situation and why I designed a resilient engine mount, I burn SVO/propane, I exhaust into an underground concrete cistern, and I use an air intake silencer. My nearest neighbor who is only 10 feet away from where 6/1 is located in my garage can't see, hear, feel, or smell it ;D
http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351
Bob B.
Quote from: sailawayrb on January 22, 2011, 08:30:46 AM
Quote from: BioHazard on January 21, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Hiding a powerplant in a residential neighborhood?
That's exactly my current situation and why I designed a resilient engine mount, I burn SVO/propane, I exhaust into an underground concrete cistern, and I use an air intake silencer. My nearest neighbor who is only 10 feet away from where 6/1 is located in my garage can't see, hear, feel, or smell it ;D
http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351
Bob B.
That is a really amazing setup. Tell me your engine didn't come painted that color? ;D
Quote from: BioHazard on January 22, 2011, 06:55:51 PM
That is a really amazing setup. Tell me your engine didn't come painted that color? ;D
Thanks, but NO :o
She only achieved this beautiful red finish AFTER she was first completely disassembled, each of her components carefully inspected for sand contamination or any internal cast iron defects (gasoline/talc method), each of her components carefully machined to tolerances far in excess of any original Lister, and each of her components bathed in Lye to remove the ugly green Listeroid paint. Only then was each of her components carefully painted red or black to suit her artist's/lover's perception of perfection, after which all her components were reassembled with proper respect, devotion and everlasting love. :-*
The red paint is a high temp ceramic engine paint. While high temp paint is certainly not required for these engines, I wanted to use the brittle characteristic of this paint to hopefully provide advance warning of any future fatigue or stress induced cast iron failure. Any such impending failure should cause the paint to chip/flake thereby revealing her fair, white primer underskin. I also painted the inside of her crankcase with Glyptal to prevent oil from eventually seeping thru her porous cast iron body and potentially marring her beautiful red finish. ;D
Bob B.
Now I don't feel so bad about repainting the lawnmower engine. ;D I've always thought red or black was the appropriate color for just about any engine...
Quote from: sailawayrb on January 22, 2011, 08:30:46 AM
I exhaust into an underground concrete cistern
I'm getting more curious about this, how does that work exactly? How big is the cistern, and where exactly do the exhaust gasses eventually vent?
The underground concrete cistern is located outside just beyond the exterior house wall adjacent to engine. It is cylindrical in shape and has approximately a 12 inch internal diameter, has 6 inch thick walls, and is 6 feet long. It was made from 12 and 24 inch diameter sonotubes that are normally used to build concrete deck posts, etc.
I dug a 24 inch diameter, 8 feet deep hole, placed the sonotubes into the hole and then poured concrete (with rebar and screen) between the two sonotubes to create the cistern. I also shaped the top of cistern to accommodate a 4 inch thick concrete man cover lid that I poured separately (with rebar and screen). The bottom-most foot of the cistern was filled with coarse gravel and the bottom of the cistern was left open to the earth to allow exhaust condensation to be absorbed and to allow bacteria to digest the exhaust particulates. The man cover was then covered with about 2 feet of earth and the top soil was leveled and reseeded with grass.
The engine exhaust pipe, which is a combination of steel rigid/flex pipe, goes thru a DIY wall thimble (to protect wall from exhaust and accommodate exhaust pipe expansion/contraction) and then out to the cistern where it enters about a foot below the man cover. The vent line, which is 4 inch plastic drain line, enters about a 6 inches above the gravel and runs underground maybe 200 feet (at a slight downhill slope the entire distance) before it eventually surfaces beyond my property. There is a gravel termination bed directly below where the exhaust surfaces that captures the exhaust water vapor condensate. You have to get about 5 feet close to where it surfaces before you can maybe hear a slight wush of air indicating the engine is running. If the wind is blowing hard, you can't hear even that.
Since I didn't use any concrete to mount my 6/1, I felt the need to use concrete somewhere in this project so as to not overly offend those who firmly but mistakenly believe that one can't operate old stationary engine designs without using lots of concrete. :)
Bob B.
Wow, that is a far cry from our old buried oil drum trick. We have installed a lot of Alaskan power systems where the folks wanted to lose the generator noise as much as possible. The buried oil drum would hide about 99% of the exhaust note and cost next to nothing except labor to get it buried. I would think that the biggest associated problem would be keeping track of your engine condition, especially fuel injection, a clean burn would never clog the system - however, we have seen a stuck nozzle completely clog up a system with heavy soot before the problem was identified and fixed.
dieselgman
Diesel Electric - gsj@gci.net
Quote from: dieselgman on January 23, 2011, 10:57:34 AM
Wow, that is a far cry from our old buried oil drum trick. We have installed a lot of Alaskan power systems where the folks wanted to lose the generator noise as much as possible. The buried oil drum would hide about 99% of the exhaust note and cost next to nothing except labor to get it buried. I would think that the biggest associated problem would be keeping track of your engine condition, especially fuel injection, a clean burn would never clog the system - however, we have seen a stuck nozzle completely clog up a system with heavy soot before the problem was identified and fixed.
dieselgman
Diesel Electric - gsj@gci.net
The problem with using steel oil drum shortcut is that it will eventually rust thru and collapse because exhaust is highly corrosive. You would also have to cut the bottom out of the drum or it would eventually clog too. Whatever you use, it should be designed to handle condensation water buildup and use this to flush the entire system during normal engine operations (i.e., similar design principle to marine engine exhaust system). I have a tee fitting outside and the before cistern (which is normally plugged closed) that allows installation of the standard exhaust muffler for doing maintenance checks. I have been running about 5 years without any issues at all.
Bob B.
Quote from: Jens on January 23, 2011, 11:26:51 AM
One thing that nobody has mentioned is the exhaust gas plume. As I look out, I see a column of white smoke some 30 to 40 ft high over one of my flower beds. I tried a number of ways to hide it but to no avail (although I have not tried the old "do a steam loco yard display and pump the exhaust through the loco exhaust"). I have also not tried misting water over the exit because that just gets silly.
Anyway, point is there is no smell (generally) and no sound but the neighbours can still tell that I am up to no good. Weather conditions obviously need to be right for this to happen.
There is absolutely zero smoke or anything else visible exhausting out of my setup. Even on a cold day you can't see anything because the exhaust gas temp reaches ambient temp by the time it surfaces. There maybe is a slight fried chicken smell in close proximity of where it surfaces because I burn Costco soy bean SVO. :)
Bob B.
sailawayrb, just where did you get your degree in ME?
Ron
Quote from: Jens on January 23, 2011, 12:17:14 PM
.... as I said, atmospheric conditions must be right. This obviously means no wind but also means high humidity. Today we have drizzle, I suspect humidity is around 90%. My exhaust maxes out at around 170F after the exhaust heat exchanger and before it goes into the ground in a 4" plastic pipe. It goes through 2 accumulator tanks and I am guessing maybe 70 ft of pipe before coming out so it is pretty close to ambient, maybe 10 to 20 degrees more. No matter how you slice it, the exhaust has water vapour in it and it will run at 100% humidity as it is gradually cooled. If you live in a dry climate then it will immediately combine with the dry air and drop below 100% and be clear. If you live in a wet climate it will not.
Well...I live in Seattle, which I wouldn't consider to be a dry climate... I have checked the exhaust temp where my exhaust surfaces and it has never been higher than 60 deg F and that was in the summer. In the winter it is typically more like 40 - 50 deg F depending how cold it is outside. I also burn propane concurrently with SVO, which should create even more water vapor than only burning straight SVO or diesel. After my 6/1 has been running for several hours, there is indeed a significant amount of water flowing into the gravel termination bed directly below where the exhaust surfaces. However, even this water is cold to the touch.
I suspect my large concrete cistern setup and my 200 feet plastic pipe run allow the exhaust temp to get sufficiently low to condense practically all of the water vapor from the exhaust. Of course, I am also only running a 6/1. If one is running more HP with an associated increased CFM of exhaust, then one would have to increase the size their exhaust setup accordingly to achieve sufficient exhaust temp reduction.
Bob B.
Quote from: vdubnut62 on January 23, 2011, 12:43:28 PM
sailawayrb, just where did you get your degree in ME?
Ron
I received my undergraduate ME degree from Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken NJ in 1980. I did my graduate EE at University of Washington after joining Boeing.
Bob B.
Thought so! Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so snotty. I was very impressed (and more than a little overwhelmed) with all your work on your genset.
Ron
Quote from: vdubnut62 on January 23, 2011, 01:19:55 PM
Thought so! Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so snotty. I was very impressed (and more than a little overwhelmed) with all your work on your genset.
Ron
Thanks for the positive feedback Ron. I was sort of hoping that perhaps you were an ex and long lost classmate! :)
Bob B.
Bob, if Ron were an EX of yours from college........ you really have some stories to tell ;D
Quote from: bschwartz on January 23, 2011, 03:34:33 PM
Bob, if Ron were an EX of yours from college........ you really have some stories to tell ;D
Brett, Hey, Hey, Hey, easy now! :D
No Bob B. I only wish I had the personal fortitude to attain that level of "edumacation" ;D
I did attend Tennessee Technological University, where I studied Chasing Girls, Excessive Alcohol Consumption, and the Slow Combustion
of Controlled Plant Matter. However, I never received a degree, nor finished any curriculum that I started. :'(
If only I knew then what I know now.
Ron
This summer I actually plan on totally re-landscaping my whole yard, much of it is on a slope that I want to level out. I also need to dig a BUNCH of different drainage systems throughout the yard, my lawn holds water like a swimming pool. I imagine I could incorporate some exhaust abatement into that. I do have a lot of close neighbors, but there is a 2 acre abandoned overgrown lot behind me where I could do some venting...
Quote from: vdubnut62 on January 23, 2011, 04:31:33 PM
I did attend Tennessee Technological University, where I studied Chasing Girls, Excessive Alcohol Consumption, and the Slow Combustion
of Controlled Plant Matter.
So you were a biomass major? ;D
Hmm, why yes, I suppose so. ::)
Ron
My 6/1 had an automotive muffler inside the building.
Outside, there was not very much noise.
I walked over to the neighbor's house after I installed it and I could barely hear it running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx5qABD5WD0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx5qABD5WD0)
The unit I am currently building will also have a muffler inside the garage and a vertical stack outdoors.
The gen-set is mounted to the garage floor with rubber isolators.
Once it's up and running I can report further.
veggie
Quote from: sailawayrb on January 22, 2011, 08:53:35 PM
Quote from: BioHazard on January 22, 2011, 06:55:51 PM
That is a really amazing setup. Tell me your engine didn't come painted that color? ;D
Thanks, but NO :o
She only achieved this beautiful red finish AFTER she was first completely disassembled, each of her components carefully inspected for sand contamination or any internal cast iron defects (gasoline/talc method), each of her components carefully machined to tolerances far in excess of any original Lister, and each of her components bathed in Lye to remove the ugly green Listeroid paint. Only then was each of her components carefully painted red or black to suit her artist's/lover's perception of perfection, after which all her components were reassembled with proper respect, devotion and everlasting love. :-*
The red paint is a high temp ceramic engine paint. While high temp paint is certainly not required for these engines, I wanted to use the brittle characteristic of this paint to hopefully provide advance warning of any future fatigue or stress induced cast iron failure. Any such impending failure should cause the paint to chip/flake thereby revealing her fair, white primer underskin. I also painted the inside of her crankcase with Glyptal to prevent oil from eventually seeping thru her porous cast iron body and potentially marring her beautiful red finish. ;D
Bob B.
Bob,
Don't tell George I said this, 'cause he already thinks I'm nuts for painting both my '6/1s with Rustoleum Hammered Silver, but I think with that red paint you really need to replace all the exposed nuts with brass acorn nuts to give it the proper look.
Quinn
Another thought - I don't have a fireplace, but that doesn't mean I can't build a chimney that belches smoke! ;D
put some scented dryer sheets in the exhaust path ;D
Randall
I heard that there are fuel additives sold in Germany that change diesel exhaust to something more bareable. They have so many more diesels there that fumes in the big cities is a problem.
Veggie
Quote
I heard that there are fuel additives sold in Germany that change diesel exhaust to something more bareable.
To remove chemical smell, add yet another chemical.
Quote from: Jens on January 24, 2011, 11:55:38 AM
Re the earlier discussion on exhaust plumes .... I checked my exhaust temperature and it is just noticeable to the touch (hand in exhaust stream) so it is well above ambient (currently about 8C)
I am also running more than 2 times of the standard listeroid power at about 16-18 hp.
I am also not at maximum exhaust temperature yet (but I do have my plume of about 30 ft)
That makes sense and likely explains our different results. I can't claim credit that I intentionally designed the heat transfer characteristics of my setup. It just worked out that way given the lay of my land and what I had to do.
Bob B.
I have exactly the same predicament Bio, did you get your system installed and silenced?
I live on an even smaller block 650m2, the neighbours are right on our boundary so I will too need to work on some underground pipes to silence things. I like the idea of the underground system you installed Bob, I was thinking of installing a concrete soak-well and then having a 4 inch pvc pipe coming off that and running up the side of my shed mimmicing a down pipe. I could actually use it as the downpipe soak-well come to think of it, if a bit of water is in the soak-well at the time then maybe that will help reduce any smell (I am planning to run it on WVO), I guess unfortunately for you having to hide WMO seems like a harder task, would bubbling it through water reduce the smell somewhat possibly?
This is how one fellow controlled his generator noise in a residential area.
Perhaps good for small generators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62-mNynTa0M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62-mNynTa0M)
veggie
As I see it, you have 5 issues.
1. Mechanical vibration. The slow singles don't make much noise, but they do make vibration in that big power stroke. I am in the large mass camp. Pour a concrete block(3/4 ton +) to bolt it to. Force = mass times acceleration. The larger the mass, the larger the force required to accelerate it. Then place that large mass and engine on rubber horse stall mats or some other flexible barrier to isolate that mass from the earth. This is how mine is mounted, 1300# block of concrete on 1/2" stall matt and I can just feel mine running in my living room about 35' away.
2. Exhaust thump. A large buffered expansion chamber pretty much takes care of this. Underground concrete cistern is a good effective example of this, but I believe you can be almost as effective with conventional mufflers, they just need to have a large enough volume to absorb the exhaust pulse completely. The first thing I hear walking up my driveway with the generator running is the exhaust thump from my open shed door bouncing off garage and barn, from the stock peppercan muffler. dig a hole a little larger than a 55 gallon barrel. pour a little concrete in to the bottom and set barrel in on top of wet crete. fill hole outside of barrel with concrete. if barrel rots out, it is still backed by concrete... dig a shallow round hole several inches deep and line with plastic, fill half full of crete, add reenforcement mesh and fill remainder of hole to cast lid for tank so someone in the future wont fall thru it. Add PVC pipe sections to cast inlet/outlet holes(or thru the sides of he drum if desired).
3. Intake noise. Again, automotive mufflers or air compressor silencers will dampen this noise, as would the enclosure mentioned in 4 below.
4. Valve train noise/clatter. Not a lot on a roid, but an insulated building will take care of most of it. A building inside a building would be ideal as it would allow an air/noise lock to not give the noise away when you enter or leave the "tool" shed.
5. Smell. Mine makes no visible exhaust unless I pass above 3KW of load. It does smell like a diesel though. As high as possible an outlet would be my advice. Perhaps another plumbing vent or two in your roof to disperse the exhaust. Exhaust temp is going to typically be higher than ambient, so if you start high, it should only go up from there, and the higher it gets, the farther away it gets before possibly being blown back down where someone can smell it.
Having run both now, the vibration thump of a listeroid is difficult, but IMO, the roid is easier overall than a chinese horizontal. My S1100 is LOUD!
Hey Ronmar,
when it comes to the power stroke if the engine is well balanced would it still have much impact? I have seen some clips of engines on wheel-able carts and the tyres are barely compressing during operation, it is soo smooth!
I might even have two expansion champbers next to each other underground (they will double up as drainage pits... and the exhaust can pass through one and into the other and then out of a large pipe through the top... if that doesn't work effectively at least I have 2 new drainage pits :)
I think I will build an enclosure which can drop over top of the engine and put some fibre glass or sound proofing material in that... I think 50% of the project will be spent trying to make the thing invisible...
I spent a considerable ammount of time and effort balancing my engine. I put the metal frame up on 3/4" pipe rollers on smooth concrete so you could push the 1/2 ton of engine/generator/frame easilly with a fingertip. Mine will run UNDER LOAD like that unrestrained with only about .015" of movement on the rollers. What you feel in your feet is not from out of balance, but an out of balance condition can make it seem worse.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. These engines have a MASSIVE torque pulse, enough in a fraction of a second and less than 180 degrees of crank rotation to accelerate and store enough energy in the flywheels to maintain RPM, power the process itself and still perform 4.4KW/6HP of average mechanical energy output over the remaining 540 degrees of the cycle. It is the opposite reaction to this torque pulse that you feel thru your toes... I lift the fuel and decompressor levers and I don't feel anything as it coasts to a stop...
hmm I think your spot on with your conclusion of the thumping.... is your metal engine mounting frame directly mounted to the concrete? have you experimented with a floating arrangement before on rubber of some type and if so did it help? I dare say the rubber would require replacing every so often but for me it might be a worthwhile exercise if it prevents the transfer of the thud. what do you think?
I have my steel I beam frame sitting on a 1"thick rubber mat which is bolted to 2 8x8 pieces of timber. The 8x8 sit on another 1" thick piece of rubber. The timber is not bolted to the floor but i do have angle iron bolted to the floor in front and back as well as the sides of the 8x8's with a piece of rubber between them and the timber. This is sitting on a normal concrete garage floor. You can not feel the thumping if you are more than 4 feet away from the engine. My exhaust goes into an old propane tank then a large straight flow muffler to the outside where it then goes into a length of 4" PVC. You can not hear it running 30 feet away if the load is 2400 watts or less and even fully loaded it is quite quiet.
here is a link to it running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfGjlHNX-68
The exhaust has been changed since this video was shot.
I mounted 4 cheap wheel/tires from TSC on my S1100 outfit, REALLY helped quiet it down. Best $20 I spent on it.
Ron.
Quote from: vdubnut62 on December 29, 2011, 12:29:49 PM
I mounted 4 cheap wheel/tires from TSC on my S1100 outfit, REALLY helped quiet it down. Best $20 I spent on it.
Ron.
I slid a couple of 2" thick blocks of high density ethyfoam under the frame on my Changchai and it is a whole different animal. Still noisy, but it dosn't appear to move and I cannot feel it in my feet standing on the concrete floor right next to it.
Ahh excellent, well I guess I will be building it on a movable cart with some blow up wheels! that's a great idea to stop the thud from transferring into the ground, The blow up tyres provide a pretty good air cushion compared to the solid rubber I guess..
Are the intakes particularly noisy? I think I will just incorporate a common air filter from a car over here, that should provide a decent reduction of intake noise, or do you think I should go with something specifically designed to reduce intake noise?
Intake noise too loud? I suppose that answer depends on how much noise you can tolerate! Lister actually supplied intake silencers for some of their product line, think small compartments on-board a sailboat! They do tend to be a bit noisy!
dieselgman
Quote from: carbon-rod on January 04, 2012, 01:08:12 AM
Are the intakes particularly noisy? I think I will just incorporate a common air filter from a car over here, that should provide a decent reduction of intake noise, or do you think I should go with something specifically designed to reduce intake noise?
I have no idea , I have never been able to hear mine over the rest of the knocking and thrashing.
I still think it sounds like half a 55 gallon drum of hammers rolling downhill.
Ron
haha vbnut you're making me a bit scared!
To me I don't care about the sound, I would love to have the engine run all day and lister to it's heartbeat, the issue is neighbours. My block is just over 600sqm and right up against 2 other neighbours so it needs to be nice and quiet so I can run it for long periods without them noticing...
Quote from: carbon-rod on January 04, 2012, 01:08:12 AM
Are the intakes particularly noisy? I think I will just incorporate a common air filter from a car over here, that should provide a decent reduction of intake noise, or do you think I should go with something specifically designed to reduce intake noise?
Some Indian clones are noisy some not.......IMO it depends on the guy locating the cam lobes when they are drilled and pinned. I have 2 6/1's. The first is very quiet on the intake. I never have had any issue with intake noise. Then I bought a 2nd 6/1 and I could not figure out the obnoxious sound it made.....finally I discovered it was the intake. At the same time others were complaining of this issue. Most of us went with the intake silencer/filter I believe they use on air compressors from McMaster Carr. It helped considerably. I set my cam timing by when the intake valve opens at 6 deg (memory) BTC on my quiet 6/1. I never could get the noisy one to time correctly. It was always off ½ deg or so. I believe the cam is incorrectly assembled on a noisy intake 6/1.
Interesting XYZER, I actually remember a thread about this you probably posted it originally.... I will definitely have to check the exact timing on the engine when it comes... It will be good to map out the timing exactly how they are stock and measure the widths and sizes of the components so I can track the engines health. I am planning to run WVO in it which shouldn't be too abrasive however I have learnt acidity could be an issue so it will be nice to be able to record measurements of components and compare them over time.
If my intake is noisy expect an email from me to find out some exact details of your engine :)
so the actual hole in the cam lobe was driled incorrectly? would a replacement (correct) lobe help fix the issue?
A replacement camshaft will - assuming that it has been jigged and drilled correctly.
dieselgman
ah righto, I need to get my hands on the engine so I can see how everything is mounted, I was hoping it was a keyed lobe or something that could be removed.. oh well.
Quote from: dieselgman on January 04, 2012, 03:59:50 PM
A replacement camshaft will - assuming that it has been jigged and drilled correctly.
dieselgman
I have considered getting another camshaft assembly and trying it. Also using the quiet one as a master and having the noisy one ground to match......it could also be the gear on the crank......You sell cam assemblys dieselman?
Dave
We are temporarily out of stock here on assemblies but do have most of the parts such as replacement lobes and gears etc.. These can sometimes be used to repair a bad assembly.
dieselgman
It would be great to have some technical drawings of the correct one so that we could measure our own at different points to see if that is the issue... XYZER maybe if you're really bored on a sunday afternoon you can whip it out and measure it for us?
The cam shaft that is.... ;D
It's a bit hard to measure angular inaccuracies though I guess...
I do have the specifications - degree wheel measurements for opening and closing the valves.
dieselgman
feel like posting them on here?
I will use them once I get the engine and check to see if I have noisy timing...
Thanks dieselgman
Quote from: carbon-rod on January 05, 2012, 04:06:53 PM
It's a bit hard to measure angular inaccuracies though I guess...
Then it is hard to fix the goobers you find. It is difficult to find what is off....the gear..the intake lobe then the exhaust......or then it could be the press fit cam gear on the crank.....the crank gear could be pulled off and relocated easy....a complete teardown! The lobes and gear could be dissasembled and if you had the special fixture that holds the lobes and gear in proper rotation to each other while you re drilled and taper reamed for tapered pins. I don't want to use the Indian fixture! I figured if I trip across a spare cam assembly I would try it and if it was noisy I would use the quiet one and have a cam guy duplicate it and my spare. Then if somone else has a noisy one grind it like mine.
Here is the diagram and OEM figures...
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=6459&g2_serialNumber=1)
With a wrap of masking tape and a cloth measuring tape, it would be pretty easy to make a degree wheel right on the flywheel and measure the cam.
Get a drill rod for the shaft, drill the lobes for a set screw, then degree it out, lock in place with the set screws.
Then all you need is a drill press and a good 'ol reamer for the taper pins and you can roll your own as it were.
Ron.
Sounds good, fingers crossed my engine will be quiet to begin with...
Hey Carbon-rod! I was referring to my Xing Dong S1100 being noisy as all get out. I don't have a Lister(oid). :'( Yet.
Sorry for my misinterpreting the post!
Ron