I hope to have a natural gas powered 4-6 cylinder engine going soon. What exactly needs to be done to a standard car engine to make it run on natural gas? Do I simply need a mixer like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/IMPCO-LPG-PROPANE-CARBURETOR-MIXER-CA100-CA100-194-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem29f9d28285QQitemZ180284981893QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Would I bolt that on top of the original gasoline carb or throttle body for throttle control?
Here's a site with some info you may find worthwhile:
http://www.propane-generators.com/
Bob B.
I've looked over that website before, though they seem kind of expensive.
This page shows how you basically just drill out the gasoline jet in the carb for a natural gas jet:
http://www.propane-generators.com/dedicated_kits.htm
What I don't understand...is what is this part?
(http://www.propane-generators.com/images/dedicated_kits/EF5200%20A%20Kit.JPG)
I would guess that is a propane regulator, but, if you're using low pressure natural gas.....what's it for?
I'm not an expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but....
I think it's a demand regulator, sort of like a regulator used for SCUBA diving.
If it does not sense a partial vacuum or demand, no gas flows.
Ron
Quote from: vdubnut62 on January 15, 2011, 08:49:59 PM
I'm not an expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but....
I think it's a demand regulator, sort of like a regulator used for SCUBA diving.
If it does not sense a partial vacuum or demand, no gas flows.
Ron
Is that how the Impco mixer works? I get the idea they are meant to be put on top of carburetors for dual fuel use, even though I'm only interested in one fuel.
The auction says "THE MODEL 100 SERIES IS A SINGLE DIAPHRAGM AIR-GAS VALVE CARBURETOR/MIXER."
Quote from: BioHazard on January 15, 2011, 08:11:14 PM
I've looked over that website before, though they seem kind of expensive.
This page shows how you basically just drill out the gasoline jet in the carb for a natural gas jet:
http://www.propane-generators.com/dedicated_kits.htm
What I don't understand...is what is this part?
(http://www.propane-generators.com/images/dedicated_kits/EF5200%20A%20Kit.JPG)
I would guess that is a propane regulator, but, if you're using low pressure natural gas.....what's it for?
Bio
It works as Vdubnut62 says no vacuum no propane flows to carb mixer. It also is a liquid propane vaporiser if you notice in the pix there are engine coolant lines to it. They take heat TO the regulator to get all the liquid propane converted to vapor.
Billswan
Quote from: BioHazard on January 15, 2011, 09:51:27 PM
Quote from: vdubnut62 on January 15, 2011, 08:49:59 PM
I'm not an expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but....
I think it's a demand regulator, sort of like a regulator used for SCUBA diving.
If it does not sense a partial vacuum or demand, no gas flows.
Ron
Is that how the Impco mixer works? I get the idea they are meant to be put on top of carburetors for dual fuel use, even though I'm only interested in one fuel.
The auction says "THE MODEL 100 SERIES IS A SINGLE DIAPHRAGM AIR-GAS VALVE CARBURETOR/MIXER."
I see this unit does have a diaphragm but my GUESS is it needs other support to operate. Like a supply of propane Vapor probably from a heated regulator like your other post shows.
Billswan
Quote from: billswan on January 15, 2011, 10:13:55 PM
I see this unit does have a diaphragm but my GUESS is it needs other support to operate. Like a supply of propane Vapor probably from a heated regulator like your other post shows.
Billswan
But do you need a regulator when you're running off of low pressure natural gas?
Quote from: BioHazard on January 15, 2011, 10:20:24 PM
Quote from: billswan on January 15, 2011, 10:13:55 PM
I see this unit does have a diaphragm but my GUESS is it needs other support to operate. Like a supply of propane Vapor probably from a heated regulator like your other post shows.
Billswan
But do you need a regulator when you're running off of low pressure natural gas?
Yes,
Note: Natural gas and LPG regulars are differant. The same goes with the gas lines and ............ect.
Warning!!! If you do not know the required materials to use, the gas codes on how it should be plumbed and how to test water colume do not attempt the install. Get a licensed plumber.
Done it long enough enough to know LPG and Natural Gas is nothing to mess with if you do not know what you are doing. If somthing goes wrong you could be held liable.
In most states I beleive it is the gas company's job to run the proper gas line to the equipment that will be ran. And in some states they will supply the regulator. Most of the time this is done at the gas company's expense. Than all you need is a plumber to finish the job.
Henry
Oh, once the install is completed. Please do not use a match to test for leaks. ::)
Henry
Quote from: BioHazard on January 15, 2011, 10:20:24 PM
Quote from: billswan on January 15, 2011, 10:13:55 PM
I see this unit does have a diaphragm but my GUESS is it needs other support to operate. Like a supply of propane Vapor probably from a heated regulator like your other post shows.
Billswan
But do you need a regulator when you're running off of low pressure natural gas?
I totally agree with Hwew you need special regulators for natural gas.
Billswan
Henry - do you know how to determine the "size" (in gas flow terms) of a propane demand valve? Our next door neighbours here have an ancient nissan-powered fork-lift truck, and something's gone wrong with the propane feed side, so it won't work any more. I reckon they need to replace the demand valve (because you can get it running with a squirt of "Start ya bastard" (ether)), but no gas is fed through. The valve is very similar to the one Bill showed a picture of.
If I could tell how big a demand valve is needed, I could replace it & get lots of free welding off them for moving what is, at the moment, a total deadweight.
Just for the record the line on the top of the regulator is{ gas out to the carb}...{.NOT }a coolant line. the gas line in is where the red cap is ......I have this setup on one of my geneartor ....and it is a vacuum or demand regulator http://www.propane-generators.com/
PS. it is worth its weight in gold, and good for propane and nat gas....
(http://www.propane-generators.com/images/dedicated_kits/EF5200%20A%20Kit.JPG) (http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4698&g2_serialNumber=1)(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4700&g2_serialNumber=1) (http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4702&g2_serialNumber=1)
Regulator housing looks the same for both fuels, but the spring settings and orifices differ. LPG is supplied at a higher pressure than NG. There is no cheap way around this, you need to buy the correct equipment for your application from a reputable company.
Quote from: wrightkiller on January 16, 2011, 09:18:00 AM
Just for the record the line on the top of the regulator is{ gas out to the carb}...{.NOT }a coolant line. the gas line in is where the red cap is ......I have this setup on one of my geneartor ....and it is a vacuum or demand regulator http://www.propane-generators.com/
PS. it is worth its weight in gold, and good for propane and nat gas....
(http://www.propane-generators.com/images/dedicated_kits/EF5200%20A%20Kit.JPG) (http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4698&g2_serialNumber=1)(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4700&g2_serialNumber=1) (http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4702&g2_serialNumber=1)
Yes better pix I stand corrected. I was thinking of an old case tractor and another piece of equipment I owned. A person would start them on vapor from the main tank and after the engine got warm and then you would turn on a liquid flow to the reg and turn off the vapor. That way the liquid would run the engine and the tank pressure would stay up. I was a 80 hp tractor and needed LOTS of propane. Pulling vapor would eventually lower tank pressure to the point it would no longer vaporize.
The regs in the pix look to run off vapor only. I got them confused. :-[
Billswan
Quote from: AdeV on January 16, 2011, 08:28:12 AM
Henry - do you know how to determine the "size" (in gas flow terms) of a propane demand valve? Our next door neighbours here have an ancient nissan-powered fork-lift truck, and something's gone wrong with the propane feed side, so it won't work any more. I reckon they need to replace the demand valve (because you can get it running with a squirt of "Start ya bastard" (ether)), but no gas is fed through. The valve is very similar to the one Bill showed a picture of.
If I could tell how big a demand valve is needed, I could replace it & get lots of free welding off them for moving what is, at the moment, a total deadweight.
Here are some things that need to be checked:
Is the propane tank sized so it can meet the demand?
Is thee first stage regulator sized and meeting the demand for the length of gas line run?
Is the second stage regulator sized properly for the engines demand?
Is the line from the second stage regulator to the engine sized properly to meet the demand?
Is the gas shut off valve sized properly to meet the demand?
I don't want to go any further than this. I shure hate to be liable if somthing goes wrong.
If you know someone that worked on gas furnaces or water heaters and you can trust them ask and see if they can test W.C. on the regulator near the engine. They will know what to do. I recommend a tube type Manometer. They are the simplest and don't need recalibrating.
Henry
Timsr2: in my pictures you will see a propane regulator for propane ,with hoses and fittings ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
for nat gas you pipe direct to the vac/demand valve, with the right rubber hose.... sized for the job... size ...and shutoff valve, befor the hose no orifices or springs to change
The propane regulator drops the pressure to the right level for the the vac/demand valve
and yes you need to know what you are doing ...If you don't just ask some one who does
Billswan: Just trying to give good info out...... no bust intended ;D ;D ;D
http://www.propane-generators.com/ is a good site to learn from http://www.propane-generators.com/natural-gas-chart.htm
Quote from: TimSR2 on January 16, 2011, 12:19:55 PM
Regulator housing looks the same for both fuels, but the spring settings and orifices differ. LPG is supplied at a higher pressure than NG. There is no cheap way around this, you need to buy the correct equipment for your application from a reputable company.
You are correct TimSR2,
One of the most common mistakes that people do is install the wrong equipment.
Yes the W.C. (pressure) is differant on LPG and N.G.
Do not cut costs on an install.
Henry
Quote from: AdeV on January 16, 2011, 08:28:12 AM
Henry - do you know how to determine the "size" (in gas flow terms) of a propane demand valve? Our next door neighbours here have an ancient nissan-powered fork-lift truck, and something's gone wrong with the propane feed side, so it won't work any more. I reckon they need to replace the demand valve (because you can get it running with a squirt of "Start ya bastard" (ether)), but no gas is fed through. The valve is very similar to the one Bill showed a picture of.
If I could tell how big a demand valve is needed, I could replace it & get lots of free welding off them for moving what is, at the moment, a total deadweight.
Take the darn thing apart and free it up with WD-40 and/or replace the diaphragm if it's dry rotted.
Bob will be your uncle. ;)
Ron
Henry - don't worry about liability - you're on a different continent to me, the rules don't apply.... Besides, this isn't a new installation, all I need to do is replace the demand valve with the same size that's already there, and it should (in theory) work. The truck worked fine on propane for the last 15 years, it's just the last 2 years it hasn't.
Ron - I'm pretty sure that you're right that it's the diaphragm that's failed - but finding a spare part has proved impossible. It would seem to be easier to replace the whole valve, than to try to repair this one.
Quote from: AdeV on January 17, 2011, 02:47:28 AM
Henry - don't worry about liability - you're on a different continent to me, the rules don't apply.... Besides, this isn't a new installation, all I need to do is replace the demand valve with the same size that's already there, and it should (in theory) work. The truck worked fine on propane for the last 15 years, it's just the last 2 years it hasn't.
Ron - I'm pretty sure that you're right that it's the diaphragm that's failed - but finding a spare part has proved impossible. It would seem to be easier to replace the whole valve, than to try to repair this one.
AdeV; As ron says, the most common failure is diaphragm or corrosion that jams the inlet valve. It might be possible to source diaphragm material from a larger diameter regulator as long as it is relatively the same thickness. It might be doable but you may run into a riveted attachment of the parts.
I could chase down the name of a person who sourced new material for rebuilding old collectable chainsaw fuel pump diaphragms. My curiosity would make me need to see the innards of that animal!
As mentioned it is totally forbidden territory and there are life threatening consequences to screwing up. Knowing the original WC settings would be a real plus. The tautness of the diaphram also affects the fuel mixture curve as well.
My apolagies guy's, I was thinking a new install at the time. ::) I have been spending most of my time thinking about my new build and what parts are needed. Also how much I am willing to accept on output and how fast I need to spin the engine to echeve it.
Henry
Try this site.......http://411lift.com/quoteform.html?gclid=CPrWx7G2waYCFQY65QodXV6cIw
or this one http://www.pngtechnologies.com/Products_GenericImpco.html
Quote from: wrightkiller on January 17, 2011, 07:15:36 AM
Try this site.......or this one http://www.pngtechnologies.com/Products_GenericImpco.html
That's a great link...
What are these "governors" they sell?
http://www.pngtechnologies.com/Governors.html
How does that govern the engine? What is it controlled by? It looks like a throttle body...
Quote from: BioHazard on January 20, 2011, 02:08:20 AM
Quote from: wrightkiller on January 17, 2011, 07:15:36 AM
Try this site.......or this one http://www.pngtechnologies.com/Products_GenericImpco.html
That's a great link...
What are these "governors" they sell?
http://www.pngtechnologies.com/Governors.html
How does that govern the engine? What is it controlled by? It looks like a throttle body...
Just guessing those are replacement parts for governors on spark ignition engines. You are looking at only part of the system.
Years ago gasoline truck engine governors started with a parts in the distributor. Those parts when up to a preset max speed would send a signal through a vacuum line back to the parts in or in this case under the carb. The butterfly valve would limit he engines max speed.
The ones I remember seamed to work well but I am not to sure they weren't just meant to stop a ignorant driver from busting up an engine in the lower gears. Not something that could govern an engine continually on a gen. Just to protect engine from over speed. I could be wrong though been may years since I worked on en engine with one.
Billswan
Billswan
Billswan, that is correct. The governors shown are likely a simple overspeed vacuum actuated throttle body that goes below the mixture control carb. I am not sure how the controlling vacuum is modulated on the ones pictured, but some old gas engine trucks had a weight and spring controlling a sleeve on the distributor shaft below the timing advance mechanism in the ignition distributor. It would not act as a governor like for a generator.
Some of the old BD144 diesel engines in the International B-275 tractors had a pneumatic governor. It did have a butterfly valve.
Also had a Datsun pickup /w the same setup on an SD-22 diesel. But although they shared the same type of components, they did not work the same.
I guess this is a long winded way of saying that it is possible for it to operate as a speed control setup.
Ron