Hey guys,
So after living in the new house for about 1 week, I can report some data and post a few pics of my weird hot water system.
We have a large masonry stove (thermal mass heater) from www.heatkit.com
The firebrick/refractory core heats a lot of exterior rock facing sourced from our land.
The firings are only a few hours long and it takes about 4-6 hours for the heat from the last fire to penetrate to the rock facing.
In the back of the firebox, there is a stainless steel hot water loop.
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4603&g2_serialNumber=1)
You may remember I placed a 1000 gal concrete septic tank under the garage slab. I've lined it with 6 inches of styrofoam and then 1.5 inches of R-max polyisocyanurate foam on the inside. Then I painted the inside with 2 coats of Red Guard shower-pan elastomeric membrane and 2 coats of liquid silicone. All the foam decreases the tank volume to around 500 gals. Putting the foam on the outside of the tank would invite thermal bridging if the ground got wet (even when drained by gravel?) and 1000 gal + thermal mass of the concrete would be little too much BTU's heating load.
Here's a pic of the tank before the garage/basement slab was poured. It has a 24" manhole on one end and 2" vertical PVC pipes for in/outs x 8. You can also see the earth tubes made of 4" white PVC.
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4605&g2_serialNumber=1)
This is the view from the manhole into the newly sealed tank w/ silicone:
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4580&g2_serialNumber=1)
The water in the tank just sits there as a heat sink. It doesn't go anywhere. I added 1 gal of bleach to keep it clean. Is that way too much bleach? 500:1 dilution ratio. Didn't think about that until later. Hope it doesn't eat at the silicone. Arrggh.
Then, there are 3 loops entering the tank.
1. The masonry stove closed loop: down from woodstove, into 50' of 3/8" copper coils in tank then to expansion tank, check valves, flow valve, and circulator pump. I used a 20 watt Laing 12 v DC circulator. The Eagle 2 differential temp controller is set to 12 degree differential and the pump is just plugged into it via a 12 V DC 60 watt LCD screen power supply. (The fill valve is located behind the masonry stove, hidden behind the refrigerator on the other side of the wall.)
2. The second closed loop will be to flat plate solar panels on the porch roof, to be installed hopefully this coming summer. They will have a similar loop setup as the woodstove.
3. Domestic hot water enters the tank and splits at a T into 2 x 50' 3/8" flexible copper coils before coming back together at another T. Therefore 100' of copper heating coils. I also installed a bypass valve in case the tank is cold.
These pics show the inside of the tank with coils. The woodstove and solar panel coils are on the bottom of the tank, and the domestic water coils are about 18" higher to take advantage of heat stratification. The vertical white CPVC pipe just holds the thermister about at mid-tank level.
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4585&g2_serialNumber=1)
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4587&g2_serialNumber=1)
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4589&g2_serialNumber=1)
Here's how I formed the coils:
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4583&g2_serialNumber=1)
Pic of overview of the system from the mech room: The manhole is on the other side of the wall in the garage. Diff temp controller is blue box on the wall. Grey box is the propane fired on-demand water heater (Rheem #RTG-84DVP Tankless Water Heater). There are 4 pairs of PVC pips entering the tank through the slab looking left to right: 1st set for future solar, 2nd set for masonry stove, 3rd set sensors (one pipe used), 4th set for domestic water preheat.
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4601&g2_serialNumber=1)
Yellow valve is incoming cold water for domestic hot water. You can see pipe going down into tank and then back up, as well as bypass valve:
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4599&g2_serialNumber=1)
So, here's prelim data. Nothing too fancy.
I started making consistent fires in the stove on Monday Dec 27. The tank temp rose by approx 10*/day from 50* initial filling temp, until it reached around 98* on Friday Dec 31. Since that time it is plateauing. Today before making the evening fire the tank was at 111*. The circ pump is running constantly because the firebox interior is always much hotter than the tank water. Even after being at work all day the incoming water from the woodstove was 120*. If I take about a 30 minute shower to bathe the kids (3 y/o and 2 y/o like to take shower w/ daddy), the tank temp will drop by about 4-5* while preheating the water. I have no idea how much I'm saving in propane yet because if the woodstove is being fired the tank is being heated!
Marcus
Awesome you're in the house. Isn't it nice to have the job done. ::) We've been in ours 3 years now next month and some doors and trim still need to be painted. And IIRC you're still married too. May you and your family enjoy the home for many years to come!
Thank you Tom. Yep, still married. ;) It's been quite the journey. Moving sucks, but we're getting there slowly.
QuoteWe've been in ours 3 years now next month and some doors and trim still need to be painted.
If they're wood doors and trim, what does it matter!? :) Haha. Yes, we have some of that to do still, and the kitchen pantry and dining nook are still being worked on, but it was complete enough for county and bank inspectors.
Sorry, I thought I posted here that we moved in, but with all the moving I haven't been on this forum much in the past week. Maybe I'll post a few finished house pics also when the weather gets sunny.
Great job Marcus!
Wish I was as far as you are.
You might like this, little late.
Bill:
thank you for the pdf file!
can we put a copy down in the white paper section?
this is something that ought to prove very useful to many folks
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on January 05, 2011, 04:20:36 PM
Bill:
thank you for the pdf file!
can we put a copy down in the white paper section?
this is something that ought to prove very useful to many folks
bob g
Have fun, white papers would be fine.
Marcus,
That's really a wonderful system you put together there.
You obviously put a ton of thought and hard work into bringing all those ideas together.
Congratulations on that.
Keep us posted of the system's performance now that you are up and running.
veggie
Hi Marcus,
Great looking setup :)
Are you doing 12 or 24 hour fire cycles, what is burn time per fire cycle, and how many lbs of wood per fire cycle? From everything I have read, using a masonry heater to heat domestic water is a non-starter. If one's firing cycle is more than every 12 hours or one uses more than say 20/30 lbs per fire (approximately 1-1.5 hour burn time), supposedly one can expect to replace the masonry core on an annual basis because of excessive core thermal stress. I don't have any first-hand experience and I would be very excited/gratified to hear that this is not the case.
Bob B.
PS - BTW, do you recognize where this photo was taken :)
i got a question for you fire box fellows
in some of my older books there are designs for admittedly large scale fireboxes, that are designed with castiron
interior walls that have grooves cast in where water pipes are then affixed and a layer of fireclay is sort of grouted over
the system is called a "water wall" and from what i have read the lifespan is quite good, but then again they are meant
for a continuous fire application?
whatever the case, what if the fire box had removable sides and top sections that were made of cast iron, then one could remove
and replace them more easily that ripping out a bunch of brick and fireclay?
any thoughts on this sort of thing?
bob g
Thanks everyone. It's only been functioning for a week so time will tell.
Bob B.: Hey, that's easy -- it's the new Taprock restaurant down by the Rogue here in Grants Pass. :) Was it good? Is that your wife? Hope you had a good time. I've only eaten there once, for breakfast and it was pretty good. There was a restaurant there before, but it had a kitchen fire about 2 years ago and they tore it down. That place had a lot of character and you could sit closer to the water.
I'm firing the stove 2 to 3 times per day at 30-50 lbs each time. The wood is quite wet. It's seasoned madrone and construction debris (i.e. cut 2x6's, etc.) but it was out in the rain and I don't have anything else. Goodness, I hope I don't have to replace the core yearly, but the innermost core of firebricks are not mortared to the next layer so it is relineable (if that's a word). The outer facing is getting up to 150+ degrees and the heated bench is up to 110-120 degrees (it all depends on how accurate those infrared thermometers are). You burn it with the damper and flue wide open to get complete combustion. It burns with hot flames for a few hours. Then I damper it down when there are red coals, otherwise I'll just suck cold air in the air intake in the basement and lose the hot air out the chimney slowly. Shouldn't get much if any creosote buildup that way.
The water loop is a 1" stainless steel coil in the back of the firebox. The coil is U-shaped horizontally, cold coming in the bottom portion and hot in the top. It exits through the back wall. I'm getting measurements of around 140 deg at the hot side now that the tank is up to around 110 deg. (Maybe the tank is hotter today -- I'll check when I get home from work later; still at the hospital, just taking a break.) In this picture during construction you can see the double wall firebrick in the firebox and the water coil in the back.
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4608&g2_serialNumber=2)
Next I'm going to attach a thermister on the preheated water pipe coming out of the tank to see how efficiently the dual 50' coils are transferring heat to domestic hot water. That will give me an idea of how much propane I'm saving, or at least the # of BTU's saved by calc'ing the temp differentials.
The 50' coil seems to be very effective. While I haven't measured it specifically yet, after the masonry stove loop gives it's heat to the tank, the pipe coming out of the tank feels about what the controller reports the tank temp is, and is definitely much cooler than the hot pipe going into the tank.
What concerns me somewhat is that the masonry stove still hasn't got the house up to more than 70* on the main floor yet. Outside temps are in the upper 20's and low 30's lately. Yes, I understand the concept of radiant heat and how you will feel warmer even though the room temp is cooler. And it is trying to heat a whole 2600 sq ft house. Upstairs is quite comfortable: in the lower 70's. Downstairs the backup thermostat reports average of 64 deg but the walls are 68 deg when I measure w/ the IR thermometer. We have a lot of windows, too, and no curtains or blinds yet (even if they are argon filled high effieciency windows it still feels cold next to a window. We're still experimenting and I'm trying to keep the backup propane boiler turned off.
Marcus
Hi mobile_bob,
You last post came in while I was writing so I didn't have a chance to address it above. That type of firebox sounds very interesting. I'll do some research on it, but it's a little late for me. I didn't design the water coil in my stove. It came with the package, albeit an add-on from Heatkit. I don't think Norbert Senf would offer it if it were prone to early failure. He is one of the leaders in masonry stove building in North America. You'll notice though, in my stove you can remove the inner-most layer of firebrick fairly easily when necessary.
Marcus
Quote from: mobile_bob on January 05, 2011, 09:21:28 PM
i got a question for you fire box fellows
in some of my older books there are designs for admittedly large scale fireboxes, that are designed with castiron
interior walls that have grooves cast in where water pipes are then affixed and a layer of fireclay is sort of grouted over
the system is called a "water wall" and from what i have read the lifespan is quite good, but then again they are meant
for a continuous fire application?
whatever the case, what if the fire box had removable sides and top sections that were made of cast iron, then one could remove
and replace them more easily that ripping out a bunch of brick and fireclay?
any thoughts on this sort of thing?
bob g
Here's a guy who did more or less what you are thinking. Basically a standard wood stove that is surrounded by several tons of brick.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/BioFuel/DougMasonryStove.htm
He has other things on his site you might find intetresting too.
Bob B.
Quote from: mbryner on January 05, 2011, 09:25:10 PM
Bob B.: Hey, that's easy -- it's the new Taprock restaurant down by the Rogue here in Grants Pass. :) Was it good? Is that your wife? Hope you had a good time. I've only eaten there once, for breakfast and it was pretty good. There was a restaurant there before, but it had a kitchen fire about 2 years ago and they tore it down. That place had a lot of character and you could sit closer to the water.
Marcus
Yeah, didn't think you would struggle with this one. The food was OK, but I found the cabin to be more interesting. Yup, the fine looking woman in the photo is my wife Gayle. We happened by the Taprock for breakfast after fueling up before the long drive back to Seattle on the 28th. Spent six days at our Evans Creek hide-a-way.
I'll comment more on what little I know about masonry heaters tomorrow. I had a busy day at work today and will see worse tomorrow so need by bedtime :P
Bob B.
The builditsolar.com website is a great resource. The admin, Gary, has even emailed me and our house is posted on that site as of a few weeks ago.
Here's his page on masonry stoves and woodstove water heating in general:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/BioFuel/biofuels.htm#Wood
Cast iron is a problem if it gets run dry or freezes. Stainless pipe much more foregiving, no rust, can be acid cleaned, resistant to flue gas acids, easily custom fabricated. Pipe can be run at much higher pressures compared to the flat cast "water wall system"
Depending on your system design and your water mineral content you may have a scaling problem. A closed loop running glycol may be necessary. In limestone country using continuous makeup water you have to be prepared to do acid descaling or your heat transfer drops away off. Whatever your system be prepared to dump heat and pressure in case you lose circulation or you have steam to deal with.
water walls don't have water running through the cast iron, rather they have a number of steel pipes covered with the cast iron plates,
which basically become radiant heaters to transmit the heat of combustion to the coolant in the pipes
the goal i suppose was to keep the active flame off the pipes and the coolant in those pipes helped to cool those cast iron plates extending their useful life.
i have a few books with drawings, i will try to get a scan and post it
often times a picture truly is worth a thousand words
bob g
hi crofter,
TPR valve is at the top of the loop, and it's a closed loop filled w/ distilled water. If the pump fails and it blows off steam I'll have to get behind the fridge to access the pipes and refill.
Actually I was expecting a little more polarized reaction from this group about this whole setup. The solar panel guys from an install bid thought I was crazy for sure. They said it wouldn't work. :P
Quote from: mobile_bob on January 06, 2011, 06:38:51 AM
water walls don't have water running through the cast iron, rather they have a number of steel pipes covered with the cast iron plates,
which basically become radiant heaters to transmit the heat of combustion to the coolant in the pipes
the goal i suppose was to keep the active flame off the pipes and the coolant in those pipes helped to cool those cast iron plates extending their useful life.
i have a few books with drawings, i will try to get a scan and post it
often times a picture truly is worth a thousand words
bob g
OK, I had in mind the ribbed, flat, cast iron water vessels that were add ons to wood fired heaters; maybe "water back" or some such nickname. Any scheme is good that either protects the pipes or makes them accessible for easy service without a lot of dismantling when (not if) they leak or plug. I have made some money but never had any fun inside of any furnace. The refractory insulation of blast furnaces is chock full of cast copper or red brass chillers to protect the shell. After a few years of service you never saw such a sorry lot of weeping, steaming, corroded piping.
I heat my DHW with wood but unless you babysit it to control temperature you have to automate it and build failsafes.
What Marcus is doing with batch firing, lots of thermal mass, etc. gets rid of a lot of the problems of overshoot. That kind of fire is the least corrosive too. The other bugaboo of that firing was mentioned- thermal shock. Steady firing is much easier on the refractory brick.
geesh, wouldn't it be a blast to win a mega lottery!
a guy could go absolutely crazy, designing and building all sorts of cool stuff.
btw, Marcus
i really like your place, it should provide a sense of accomplishment and security for many years to come.
beautifully done.
bob g
Quote from: mbryner on January 06, 2011, 09:29:38 AM
hi crofter,
TPR valve is at the top of the loop, and it's a closed loop filled w/ distilled water. If the pump fails and it blows off steam I'll have to get behind the fridge to access the pipes and refill.
Actually I was expecting a little more polarized reaction from this group about this whole setup. The solar panel guys from an install bid thought I was crazy for sure. They said it wouldn't work. :P
Marcus can you slip your heat loop out by just undoing connections? I see you have covered the scale buildup problems and temp. and pressure relief plus expansion. Nice looking soldering! 95/5?
I have a loop of 3/4 ss about 4' with three of that in the stove. I just have to take the unions off and it slips out the front door. I only have a 40 gallon tank. The piping is 3/4 flex tubing with all joins silver brazed. Pure thermosiphon but no isolation so with 100% untreated makeup water I will get some scaling.
You have near double the pickup area so you may be quite close to balance all your hot water usage. We are just two dirty old folks so we do not go through as much hot water as you will. I can bias the fire toward the coil or over to the other side of the box to regulate a bit. Haven't tripped the TPR valve yet but have made it nervous a few times.
I hope you make out well with the refractory. One of the most common errors is fitting too tight and the bricks crush themselves. Same error is done with clay chimney liners. Problems can come later on as the spacing gets compacted and filled with glaze. At least the option is there to reline without dismantling the exterior. I think the yearly thing is by far the worst case scenario. You are definitely a technophiliac though, lol! I find I am reverting more and more to stone age technology as I get older. When you are younger you need more things to try your horns on. Fabulous project!
QuoteMarcus can you slip your heat loop out by just undoing connections?
Unfortunately, no. On the other hand, it wouldn't be overly difficult to remove, but would require a bit of new mortar. The connections in the back of the stove are done w/ unions instead of solder. The heat loop is mortared through the back of the stove.
95/5? I don't know. It was just the regular drinking-water-safe solder at ACE hardware. I am a total amateur at sweating pipes together: just learned a few weeks ago. About 2/3 of the joints you see in the pictures were done by the plumber, not me, so I can't take credit. I did all the joints that interface w/ the underground tank, masonry stove, and associated valves. At least they don't leak. ;D ;D You'll notice parts of it I used CPVC because I was unsure of my solder skills initially.
The accepted practice is batch firing a masonry stove. You do it with the dampers and flue wide open so it burns as hot and efficiently as possible. What happens when I don't burn such a big batch, and burn small batches only a few hours apart? Since the thermal cycling shock is the eventual downfall of the stove, would that help? I've never used a masonry stove until now so it's a learning curve.
Quotegeesh, wouldn't it be a blast to win a mega lottery!
a guy could go absolutely crazy, designing and building all sorts of cool stuff.
exactly! wooo hooo!
Marcus,
Going from memory since at work during lunch hour...
The general practice for "running" masonry heaters as best I understood it from reading all the various core vendor's installation/owner manuals available on the Internet and from reading that masonry heater design book I previously referenced goes something like this:
1) Pick the right heater based on it's BTU output relative to the size of your home's heating requirements. Perhaps use software like Energy 10 to figure this out.
2) Locate the heater in the center of your primary living area because of radiant heating.
3) Always use seasoned, very dry wood. Masonry heater cores don't like moisture because it creates significant temp differences across the core that create significant thermal stress.
4) Break it in slowly by starting with very small fires (maybe 5-10 lbs) to slowly drive all the moisture out of the core over a period of several days.
5) Decide on either a 12 or 24 hour firing cycle. There is normally a maximum wood lb core vendor recommendation for either the 12 or 24 hour firing cycle to minimize damaging the core from thermal stress. The recommendation is essentially based on how much thermal energy you can safely "charge" all the masonry. You don't want to exceed this recommendation...to do so is similar to overcharging a battery...
As I am sure you already know, masonry heaters burn at 1800+ deg F compared to maybe 600 deg F for a normal wood stove. Consequently, masonry heaters burn much less wood to generate the same total BTU output that you would get from a normal wood stove. They also burn much more cleanly and the EPA loves them for this reason. However, masonry heaters release their BTU output over many hours (maybe as much as 24+ hours) so their outside walls typically don't get much hotter than 140 deg F. Consequently masonry heaters don't overheat the space and they don't excessively dehumidify the space like a normal wood stove. It can take several hours for the intial heat produced bt the firing to make it thru all the masonry and reach the outside walls. If you over-fire a masonry heater you may produce thermal stress that exceeds what the design can tolerate.
Again, I'm going from memory and hope this helps.
Bob B.
Quote from: Jens on January 06, 2011, 12:57:25 PM
Huh ????????
[/quote]
Yup!
http://www.tempcast.com/planninguide/plan01.html
Bob B.
Perhaps one needs to define 'efficiency'. Example. "I filled the stove with wood, got it burning and left it for a few hours. When I checked it after the burn I discovered it had consumed all of the wood I put in, turning 100% of it to ash, smoke and heat. Must be 100% efficient!"
Jens, the combustion efficiency of a masonry heater is quite good, if you go back to the white papers from researchers besides TempCast or Heatkit advertising. In traditional wood stoves, you lose woodgas up the stove pipe, therefore creating more creosote etc., while masonry heaters burn that woodgas because of higher temps. I'm measuring 900 deg at the metal door of ours. Of course the newer metal wood stoves burn cleaner w/ secondary combustion zones and catalytic tech. So compared to a traditional woodstove, yes, you can get more BTU's from a cord of wood when using a masonry stove. If you run a metal woodstove with dampers wide open, the wood will be gone in a few hours same as a masonry stove, but the stove and air around it will be superheated. Then the temp will drop quickly of course. I think the take home point is not how many BTU's you get from a cord of wood, but how the BTU's are delivered to the home: fast or slowly.
Why do you say that unrestricted air flow causes reduced efficiency? If you give a fire plenty of oxygen you get a complete burn and maximum heat. If you save the heat before it goes up the chimney, overall efficiency goes up. When you refer to open fireplaces with 10-15% efficiency are you meaning combustion efficiency or heat transfer efficiency? I agree: their heat transfer efficiency is terrible.
Quote1) Pick the right heater based on it's BTU output relative to the size of your home's heating requirements. Perhaps use software like Energy 10 to figure this out.
2) Locate the heater in the center of your primary living area because of radiant heating.
3) Always use seasoned, very dry wood. Masonry heater cores don't like moisture because it creates significant temp differences across the core that create significant thermal stress.
4) Break it in slowly by starting with very small fires (maybe 5-10 lbs) to slowly drive all the moisture out of the core over a period of several days.
5) Decide on either a 12 or 24 hour firing cycle. There is normally a maximum wood lb core vendor recommendation for either the 12 or 24 hour firing cycle to minimize damaging the core from thermal stress. The recommendation is essentially based on how much thermal energy you can safely "charge" all the masonry. You don't want to exceed this recommendation...to do so is similar to overcharging a battery...
1. Got as big of a heater as I could.
2. yes
3. unfortunately all I have is wet wood currently, looking to get more dry wood
4. did that for many weeks before we moved in, and I used relatively dry wood for that
5. at current exterior temps we have to go w/ q 12 h.
I'm just not used to our stove yet. The house feels warm enough: the walls feel warm and we don't feel very cold, but the thermostat thermometer is reporting only 64 deg.
Quote from: Jens on January 06, 2011, 02:44:18 PM
While I can see a marginally better performance of a masonry stove in converting wood to thermal energy, I do not see how you come up with the idea that masonry heaters "burn MUCH less wood for the same BTU output" (my emphasis). The web page you reference gives no quantitative comparison (unless I missed it) nor should this page be taken as gospel since after all it is an advertisement.
As a matter of fact, I would say it is likely that a fire with unrestricted air input runs at a REDUCED efficiency compared to a fire where you do not have an overabundance of combustion air (worst case example being an open fireplace with 10 to 15% efficiency).
Of course efficiency drops as you restrict air flow to dampen down a fire. Just like with anything else in life, there is an optimum output with a fall-off on either side. Point is, masonry furnaces have their good points but they do not magically make one cord of wood produce the same heat that another wood stove would require two cords of wood for.
Today's modern wood stove can achieve 90% (some slightly more, some slightly less) efficiency independent of masonry or other construction technique.
There's a combustion efficieny comparison chart in first section of link. Metal stoves 65%, this TempCast 95%, and wood furnaces 55%. Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. The link discusses that you have to get to at least 1100 deg F before you can extract the energy from the wood gases that would just go up the chimney in a normal wood stove. That plus the fact that a masonry heater routes the exhaust thru the masonry in multiple passes extracts more BTUs from the same mass of wood than a normal metal stove. The folks that I know who have switched from their high efficency, EPA certified metal stoves to masonry heaters say they only use about 40% of the wood they previously used with their metal stoves per heating season now. That seems like a significant efficency improvement to me. This increased efficency (use less wood to get same heating) is also why masonry heaters were created a couple hundred years ago when they ran out of trees in Europe.
Bob B.
Quote from: mbryner on January 06, 2011, 03:15:05 PM
The house feels warm enough: the walls feel warm and we don't feel very cold, but the thermostat thermometer is reporting only 64 deg.
Actually, I think this makes good sense. The masonry heater is NOT heating the air...it is radiating heat to the surfaces (walls, floor, and people). Anything not in direct line-of-sight of a radiating surface will not be "warmed". I have noticed this effect with radiant floor heating as well. If you are sitting on the couch, all is well. However, if you lay down on the couch, you start to feel cold because the couch "shadows" you from the floor. Does your thermostat thermometer "see" the masonry stove?
I think you just need to get accustomed to your new radiant heating masonry stove. I am looking forward to having one myself...and I would be overjoyed if it will heat domestic water too. I personally can't live in a house that is heated by a metal stove (wood or pellet). The air gets way too dry and I'll wake up in the middle of the night with a killer sinus headache. However, I have done fine with our new propane metal stove. Of course, burning propane produces water and actually humidifies the space.
Marcus, I think you have a great setup. I would just try to get on dry wood as soon as you can...as you indicated you would do. Did Jackson county require you to use outside makeup air?
Bob B.
showing my ignorance or rather my forgetfulness here
there is a professor in colorado that did some pioneering work with woodgas
and all that some years ago
he developed a small single burner kitchen stove for use in 3rd world countries where wood is a rapidly depleting resource.
instead of simply burning small sticks and twigs to cook with, the little table top unit converted the wood to woodgas that was
then burnt to do the cooking, the overall efficiency gain was quite striking
easy to prove the difference to, put a pot of water on a standard wood burner and see how hot x amount of water gets out of
x amount of wood, then run the same test with his little stove, iirc it could do the same with half or less of the fuel consumed.
it makes sense that anytime you can get things hot enough to convert the wood to gas,and then burn that gas it ought to be more
efficient, however it is really hard to do that with a standard stove even if it can take the heat. most folks don't like to stand around
a stove that is red hot heading toward white hot...
that is my understanding of the russian and similar designs, the massive thermal structure can absorb and moderate the release of this
heat so that you get the heat at a more acceptable rate.
the russian design has its origins in some of the coldest regions on earth, places that are very short on wood,, i figure there is a reason
that they built them that way,, the not only work but use less fuel doing the job?
makes sense to me
bob g
you will heat the outside?
not in a russian, with its labrynth/maze of flue running back and forth through the thermal mass, let 'er rip!
by the time those burnt gasses make it to the stack there ain't much left.
at least that is my understanding of the process
bob g
I have seen this discussion a number of times about heating devices and efficiency. There is usually a lot of emotional attachment to claims and not nearly enough control on the statistical "facts" and the conditions under which they were collected. Often what seems to be a clenching argument can be easily explained and not overall conclusive at all.
One of the biggest waste of wood is failing to get decent utilization of a given woods volatiles component. With some wood varieties this can be as much as 80% of the inherent energy, on others much lower. The wood gas boys will be right up on this aspect. The masonry heaters burn and firing style scores high in this aspect. It is doable with a continuous burn device but takes more skill and attention.
As another poster with tongue in cheek has alluded, percentage efficiency is elusive game especially when not identified. Unless a continuous log of room temperature and stack temperature is recorded and the wood is identical and weighed, and the weather and heat loss is identical, any claims about wood usage are of questionable value. Hell most wood burners and wood sellers dont seem to know within 50% what is a cord.
The masonry heaters have a lot of good points and certainly lots of charm. I just dont think they are good bang for the buck and might be hard pressed to prove under controlled conditions that they are any more efficient than a skilfully fired epa iron stove being fed the same quality wood.
I just lugged a Drolet HT 2000 down into my sons basement; his Christmas present. Do a google on it. Claims 78% efficiency.
The claim about the Russian heaters efficiency is compared to what? Why masonry... iron wasnt available and labour was dirt cheap. I think Jens is correct about air in excess of that required for complete combustion being a waste of energy. It is according to combustion theory.
I said I wasnt going to get into this, lol! ;)
Quote from: Jens on January 06, 2011, 05:47:58 PM
I am not going to argue the point here. Let's just say that if you go out and buy an air tight wood stove these days you will see efficiency in the 80 to 90 % range and not anything like the figures shown on the web site. The idea that an open fireplace is 75% efficient is ludicrous - even 10 to 15% efficiency is generous. Some of the other figures were valid 20 or more years ago but have no place in this discussion. Everything modern will have secondary burn zones (and/or catalytic converters) where gases are converted to heat. Sure you can see a reduction of wood used if you go from a box that used to be called a wood stove 20 years ago to a modern wood burning device but you would see similar gains whether the wood burning device is a modern air tight wood furnace or a masonry furnace.
The thing the masonry furnace is good at is storing heat - period. You can burn a load of wood at optimum firing rate without overheating the room. BTW, to get optimum efficiency you still need to control the air feed. Guess what will happen if you have hot coals and you have wide open air feed - you will heat the outside.
I'm not going to belabor the point any more either because I believe I am right, and I firmly believe that people should believe whatever makes them happy :)
Our OR next door neighbor remodeled their home two years ago (because they now have 8 children) and they dumped their 5 year old super efficient super clean burning metal wood stove (that was installed when house was originally built 5 years ago and is required in Medford, OR area) for a new Tulikivi soapstone masonry heater. They claim they now only burn 40% of the wood they previously burned. If one researches masonry heaters, that's pretty typical and one of the reasons people are willing to shell out $10-$30K to have one. The other big reason is that masonry heaters are more healthy and provide a more comfortable way of heating.
Here another "heart-warming" masonry heater story:
http://mainewoodheat.com/2008/09/rothschild-heater/
Bob B.
Quote from: mobile_bob on January 06, 2011, 06:29:40 PM
you will heat the outside?
not in a russian, with its labrynth/maze of flue running back and forth through the thermal mass, let 'er rip!
by the time those burnt gasses make it to the stack there ain't much left.
at least that is my understanding of the process
bob g
Well, at least I believe you are are correct :)
I believe the bio-mass heating description on this link confirms this as well:
http://www.sunnysolutions.us/products1.html
I attached PDF of one builder's planning guide that I believe has some worthwhile info too.
Bob B.
Quote from: Crofter on January 06, 2011, 06:35:08 PM
I have seen this discussion a number of times about heating devices and efficiency. There is usually a lot of emotional attachment to claims and not nearly enough control on the statistical "facts" and the conditions under which they were collected. Often what seems to be a clenching argument can be easily explained and not overall conclusive at all.
One of the biggest waste of wood is failing to get decent utilization of a given woods volatiles component. With some wood varieties this can be as much as 80% of the inherent energy, on others much lower. The wood gas boys will be right up on this aspect. The masonry heaters burn and firing style scores high in this aspect. It is doable with a continuous burn device but takes more skill and attention.
As another poster with tongue in cheek has alluded, percentage efficiency is elusive game especially when not identified. Unless a continuous log of room temperature and stack temperature is recorded and the wood is identical and weighed, and the weather and heat loss is identical, any claims about wood usage are of questionable value. Hell most wood burners and wood sellers dont seem to know within 50% what is a cord.
The masonry heaters have a lot of good points and certainly lots of charm. I just dont think they are good bang for the buck and might be hard pressed to prove under controlled conditions that they are any more efficient than a skilfully fired epa iron stove being fed the same quality wood.
I believe this is very good perspective Crofter. There are many ways to calculate efficiency, and unless it is done properly and the same way for the products being compared, the % numbers are meaningless. I certainly don't believe any of the % numbers that the vendors claim. I put more credence in the critical thinking capability of my engineering/science minded collegues and how many less cords of wood my friends and neighbors, who actually have masonry heaters, claim they now only burn.
I attached a PDF of a masonry heater BTU efficiency analysis I just found that meets my resonableness test for being well engineered and properly executed. It concludes that the masonry heater tested is about 80% efficient in terms of the BTUs it extracts from the wood. If you can harvest the wood gas BTUs (which can be as much as 70% of the total BTU energy available in wood) and you get nearly all the heat out of the exhaust and store it in the masonry before it goes up the chimney, you put more BTUs into the house for the same mass of wood than you could otherwise. I suspect that the best metal wood stove available today would do well to score 60-70% efficient under similar testing.
Perceived "bang for the buck" is an entirely different animal and discussion...and very subjective too... If you have more buck, you can have your desired bang and feel completely happy about it. Masonry heaters are crazy expensive if you pay to have someone build you one. So is a lot of professional assistance...and being frugal to an excess and getting great enjoyment from using my mind/hands, this is why I have always done everything 100% myself (car engine repair, house electrical, house plumbing, house remodeling, house construction, house selling, house AE, etc.). Even if you totally screw something up the first time you do it, you can usually do it again one or two more times and still be ahead of the game $-wise...and also be more competent for the experience. The only professionals that ever got my bucks are doctors and lawyers...and we are beginning to have a surplus of them in the family.
Bob B.
Edited to attach another PDF showing masonry heater test results from Austria. In this case, efficiency is calculated from CO2 emissions. They tested 34 masonry heaters. Efficiency ranged from 73-94% with average being about 90%.
The US Department of Energy states that "Masonry heaters commonly reach a combustion efficiency of 90%."
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12570
The US Department of Energy states that "New catalytic stoves and inserts have
advertised efficiencies of 70%–80%.
New advanced combustion stoves have
advertised efficiencies of 60%–72%."
this has become an interesting topic, indeed
thanks for the links to the various papers on these thermal mass heaters
i first became enamored with the russian design back in the early 70's while living in an old limestone hotel that i converted several rooms into
an apartment,, that damn place was so friggin cold and expensive that it left an indelible wrinkle in the old gray matter.
one winter i paid 200 bucks a month on natgas and 200 bucks on electricity, the forced air furnace never shut off for nearly 4 months and the temperature
never rose to over 55 degree's,, never not once! and i was making all of 4.50 an hour!
i spent many a cold night researching alternate heat production, and came across the russian design used in some god aweful place like siberia without tree's
where all they had was small bundles of what we would call kindling to survive on,, that design sure got my attention, although it could not be used in
that building, i was on the third floor and the basement was another 20ft to the concrete floor.
its funny how all these years later i can still remember how damn cold that winter was, and i can still see in my mind the construction of that russian fireplace.
enough so that i think i could probably reproduce it from memory if i had to,,, however if i get to that point i will go look it up again just to make sure.
my problem now is knowing whether the concrete floor can support such a massive weight? i suppose the best thing is to have a concrete saw cut
out an opening, dig down and poor a proper footing to start with.
then there is the matter of an uninsulated concrete floor...
bob g
At least 90% of my heat comes from wood. I have a modern cast iron wood stove with secondary combustion. It's in front of the fireplace and the stack goes up the fireplace flue. There is a fan behind it which makes a noticeable difference. My wood is plenty dry and I burn Oak, Maple and Beech. From the ground there is no visible smoke about 75% of the time. I would guess that's when near complete combustion is taking place. Guess what, if I go on the roof when there's no visible smoke I could almost cook hamburgers up there. It may be burning the wood completely but I sure aint getting all the heat into the house. There are ways to capture that heat but it doesn't work out in my situation.
By the way Marcus, I'm glad to hear the water loop to the fireplace is working. Beautiful job on the house and I'm happy to hear your getting settled in.
Thanks, Geno
(addition) When my stove was in the basement I had one of these on it and it worked very well.
@sailawayrb:
QuoteSpent six days at our Evans Creek hide-a-way.
Hey, you should have said something. We could have met. I like people w/ interesting ideas! :) (most everyone on this forum!)
QuoteDid Jackson county require you to use outside makeup air?
We're in Josephine Co., and they do require outside makeup air for new construction. Our fresh air pipe ends up in the basement/garage, and they never said anything about it on final inspection.
Hey, we could all debate the merits of masonry stoves vs. regular woodstove ad nauseum, but it probably won't get anywhere. Don't anyone get their feathers riled up! :)
So Geno, why don't you use one of those heat recovery units on your current setup? Wait, I'm going back and rereading and it's probably because the pipe is in the fireplace flue....
Quote from: mbryner on January 07, 2011, 01:10:20 PM
@sailawayrb:
QuoteSpent six days at our Evans Creek hide-a-way.
Hey, you should have said something. We could have met. I like people w/ interesting ideas! :) (most everyone on this forum!)
QuoteDid Jackson county require you to use outside makeup air?
We're in Josephine Co., and they do require outside makeup air for new construction. Our fresh air pipe ends up in the basement/garage, and they never said anything about it on final inspection.
Hey, we could all debate the merits of masonry stoves vs. regular woodstove ad nauseum, but it probably won't get anywhere. Don't anyone get their feathers riled up! :)
Hey, I did tell you we would be down your way then...I even offered to bring you your new 6/1 rebuild parts from George :)
We probably should exchange cell numbers sometime. Then we could just connect when the opportunity prevails.
If you have to use outside makeup air, getting it from garage is about as good as it gets. If you have to go outside, they say it's best to get it from windward side of house.
Well, MY feathers are certainly not riled up. There is absolutely no question that I'm going with passive solar and masonry stove for heating, and hydro for power ;D
HYRDO POWER, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING!!
(kick snort)
only kidding!
:)
seriously, if you are on hydro, how will you ever get your hands greasy again?
how will you get by without smelling diesel?
i guess you could splash some on for aftershave!
bob g
Bob G.,
Yeah, I always thought diesel aftershave would be a big seller. Most weekends that's my scent. If the woman you are with doesn't get turned on by it, probably best to find another one ;D
No worries, the 6/1 will move to the new homestead. It will just share a home with my other toys...opps, I mean my other essential power generation equipment and my beautiful, most efficient, and comfortable masonry heater... :)
Bob B.
In all fairness the conclusions section of that PDf on proving the efficiency of a thermal mass heater does make some disclaimers about lack of control and gets off into the very subjective realm of "pattern language".
Speaking of which I believe I have read an article about computer checking an article using a list of tag words that appears to do a good job of spotting agenda or bias. No one is free of their own subjectivity and it takes deliberate attention to keep it from slipping into supposedly scientific study, but when an operator is starting to nibble at your ears and nuzzle at your neck with "pattern language" it is well to question who this is supposed to be good for.
You could make a very large list of pros and cons for different types of heaters. How you weight the various criteria decides which best suits the situation.
Quote from: Crofter on January 07, 2011, 04:02:08 PM
In all fairness the conclusions section of that PDf on proving the efficiency of a thermal mass heater does make some disclaimers about lack of control and gets off into the very subjective realm of "pattern language".
Speaking of which I believe I have read an article about computer checking an article using a list of tag words that appears to do a good job of spotting agenda or bias. No one is free of their own subjectivity and it takes deliberate attention to keep it from slipping into supposedly scientific study, but when an operator is starting to nibble at your ears and nuzzle at your neck with "pattern language" it is well to question who this is supposed to be good for.
You could make a very large list of pros and cons for different types of heaters. How you weight the various criteria decides which best suits the situation.
Great perspective Crofter. Once someone has a strong belief or agenda that they want to accomplish, there is little point in further debate to convince them otherwise. Sort of like trying to convince some religious, racist, Republican that their beliefs might not be 100% correct. About all one can do is to present the best available data on any given subject and allow critical thinking and time for the truth to become apparent. People come to their own beliefs and as long as they can't force their beliefs on other people, I don't see any problem. :)
Bob B.
Sailawayrb; You have it right about changing someone elses opinion; anyone who thinks that is easy has only to try changing some of his own to judge how hard it will be to get inside someone elses head, Lol ;D
I think the home that Marcus built is fabulous, I love the sight of natural wood and stonework and he has a lot of thermal mass working for him which does wonders at making daily temperature swings work to ones advantage. Once he gets some seasoned consistent wood for his heater he will get a handle on how well it is performing for him.
Quote from: Crofter on January 08, 2011, 02:56:53 PM
Sailawayrb; You have it right about changing someone elses opinion; anyone who thinks that is easy has only to try changing some of his own to judge how hard it will be to get inside someone elses head, Lol ;D
I think the home that Marcus built is fabulous, I love the sight of natural wood and stonework and he has a lot of thermal mass working for him which does wonders at making daily temperature swings work to ones advantage. Once he gets some seasoned consistent wood for his heater he will get a handle on how well it is performing for him.
Agreed, Marcus did real good :)
He has a great quote on his powerhouse. I think he needs another one that perhaps captures the essence of this entire project. Perhaps this one from Goethe:
"Whatever you dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it."
I saw it carved into the stone of a masonry heater in Ken Matesz's new masonry heater book.
Bob B.
So, how to keep the static water in the storage tank clean ? All that copper will tend to be a fungicide.
The initial dose of bleach will dissipate in a couple of days when the tank is warm.
At 100F, it will want to grow something. Hot tub/Spa treatments of bromide might do bad things to the sealers.
Perhaps silver ion stuff for spas will work well. 500 gall is a large tank to drain and clean by hand 2x a year. Once gunk/bioslime gets established, it's hard to get rid of.
QuoteGoing up to 70 - 80C, I don't think anything can survive.
Jens, I think that is key. My tank plateaued at about 120 F (almost 50 C). Just perfect for growing gunk. Except there's no sunlight. Hadn't thought about copper being a fungicide.
I was also wondering about things in the garage getting steamy, but nothing is getting wet around the lid of the tank. I'll have to check the water level every month or so initially, then maybe every 6 months.
Any of you have any suggestions of any agents besides bleach that would not damage the silicone liner? I'll look into the silver ion suggestion. Silicone is rather resistant to most chemicals.
Potassium Permanganate?
Ron
Surely you know the wonderful properties of silver don't you? Just throw about 100 silver dollars in there, that should take care of things.
flywheel
Potassium Permanganate is an oxidizer used to bind with & drop out mangenese & iron from water during pretreatment. It is highly corrosive to all metals it contacts. I believe it would be a poor choice for contained water.
Terry
Most likely a light does of Good Ol "20 Mule Team" aka Borax, 2-3 times a year.
It is the fungicide all us old boat owners use.
Lloyd
Quote from: EBI-WPO on January 10, 2011, 07:23:49 AM
Potassium Permanganate is an oxidizer used to bind with & drop out mangenese & iron from water during pretreatment. It is highly corrosive to all metals it contacts. I believe it would be a poor choice for contained water.
Terry
Sorry all, I had NO idea it was so corrosive! I knew that it would cure athletes foot, and keep chickens healthy, and is cheap, thus my thoughts about it being a fungicide. I will keep my silly-assed opinions to myself now. :-[
Ron
Quote from: vdubnut62 on January 09, 2011, 10:20:28 PM
Potassium Permanganate?
Buy enough (if you can find it) and the ATF may come knocking - used in explosives too. All the stuff I used to buy at the drugstore when I was a kid, and now you have to have reams of paperwork to get someone to even admit they stock it...
Terry
[/quote]
Sorry all, I had NO idea it was so corrosive! I knew that it would cure athletes foot, and keep chickens healthy, and is cheap, thus my thoughts about it being a fungicide. I will keep my silly-assed opinions to myself now. :-[
Ron
[/quote]
Ron,
No problem here. I just built a two tank storage system with two pumps for Sodium Permanganate (which replaced the old dry mix Potassium Permanganate system). Have rebuilt the pumps a few times over the years, and maintained most of the associated plumbing, YUCCH!
Most of the 3-4 letter government agencies are interested in anyone with this stuff that shouldn't have it.
Terry
What about diesel fuel biocide? Will it work in water? The Racor web page says it's water soluble.
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.de7b26ee6a659c147cf26710237ad1ca/?vgnextoid=fcc9b5bbec622110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=default&vgnextdiv=687630&vgnextcatid=9856&vgnextcat=DIESEL+BIOCIDE&Wtky=
Thanks, Geno
Marcus.
I don't think you'll have to worry about you tank, as long as you can get the temperature up to about 60C once in a while. There are lots of tanks here and i've never heard of one failing due to corrosion. The water looses its oxygen after a while and becomes "dead" as we call it. Without oxygen there can be no corrosion.
I hope my explations makes sense ???
Quote from: oiler on January 12, 2011, 12:52:40 AM
Without oxygen there can be no corrosion.
Electrolysis. Sacrificial Zincs
The only metal in the tank is copper coil and a few bronze fittings.
Quote from: Jens on January 12, 2011, 10:27:34 AM
Quote from: mike90045 on January 12, 2011, 07:51:42 AM
Electrolysis. Sacrificial Zincs
Just as an FWI, sacrificial zincs are not sacrificial at higher temperatures. If you have steel tanks you need the anodes sold for water heaters and they are not zinc.
Water heaters typically come with either magnesium or aluminum anodes. If you are on a well and you have rotten egg smelling hot water (because of iron/sulfur anaerobic bacteria in your well water that happily lives and creates lots of hydrogen sulfide gas inside your sunless, low O2, 130 deg F water heater tank environment), one solution is to replace the magnesium or aluminum anode with an aluminum/zinc anode.
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/anoderods.html
Bob B.
I agree Marcus doesn't need anodes but I did some research on anodes for my tanks.
Magnesium is the least noble metal on the galvanic chart and is best used in fresh water.
We both want to prevent algae and fungus growth. Bleach, algaecide, fungicide, biocide, darkness, heat, anaerobic environment, I don't know. I'll take a few precautions and see what happens. For all I know a little slime on the walls wont hurt anything. We're not drinking the water, just using it to store heat.
Thanks, Geno
Quote from: Geno on January 12, 2011, 03:09:13 PMFor all I know a little slime on the walls wont hurt anything.
Except that it insulates the heatex pipes, and slows down heat transfer.
If it were me, I think I would just setup a system to periodically inject bleach so as to maintain a low free chlorine level (Google "free chlorine test kit" if that's not a known concept). Set the injection schedule to maintain a minimal free chlorine level to keep stuff from growing, but not so high a level to damage anything in the tank. Here's one way to inject bleach into a pressurized water line:
http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/stenner-chlorinator.html
For a tank vented to the atmosphere, a pellet feeder (maybe a DIY version) might be the way to do it.
http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/CS000170-p-chlorine-pellet-feeder.html
Bob B.
I like the periodic bleach dosing idea best. Whew, that chlorine pellet dispenser is spendy. Going to have to come up w/ something cheaper. Even just dumping some bleach out of a jug into the tank every-so-often.
Quote from: mbryner on January 13, 2011, 12:05:01 AM
I like the periodic bleach dosing idea best. Whew, that chlorine pellet dispenser is spendy. Going to have to come up w/ something cheaper. Even just dumping some bleach out of a jug into the tank every-so-often.
It comes to mind that automatic feeders are available for fish food, such as for feeding during vacations and the like, also used to attract various wildlife. Possibly something like that could be adapted? I'm sure the chlorine tablets are quite corrosive. Possibly even a toilet dispenser?
I'm just throwing ideas at the wall here to see if they stick.
Ron
An alternative to bleach, as it's shelf life is really quite short, is Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate. This is commonly reffered to as Di-Chlor, and is used in spas. It is also used by survivalists for water treatment. A teaspoon of it is dumped into a 55 gallon barrel of water. A Spa "free chlorine" stick tests after 24 hrs. If no "free chlorine" is detected, the process is repeated until there is. Then the water is "safe". Anyway should work cheaply for your purpose.
Terry
I attached the Stenner pump control module instructions which describe how one might estimate the appropriate solution strength and dosage requirement for sodium hypochlorite (bleach), potassium permanganate, hydrogen peroxide and polyphosphate. I think free chlorine testing for several months would be prudent to calibrate and confirm the dosage. Yeah, one could just manually accomplish this, but we all know how that goes... It goes fine until one gets distracted with other things and then you discover you have a tank that needs complete cleaning. Besides, DIY designing/building this setup would be a fun project. :)
Bob B.
Marcus,
Nice job... As a newbie to this site I have a few comments.
I have built a combination solar and wood boiler storage tank. I used a 1500 gallon septic tank and placed it underground near my garage. It has been in operation for 12 years.
What I use to treat the water is spa Softswim chemicals. Non chlorine. I think that you will find out that chlorine will eat everything over time..
I am sorry to say that I did the very same thing you did with foam and sealing the tank with future poor results. I used a Laticrete product. Two years into flawless operations, I started to lose my water level. Hundred of gallons. The concrete tank developed a very small crack near the bottom of the tank. To fix the problem I ended up cutting the upper tank seal and removing the tank lid. I pulled out all my coils and bought a roofing EPD membrane/liner.
10 years later, it is still in service. I have even installed a coil to pre-heat a large fiberglass swim spa. It's nice to swim in May with warm water from solar in the Pacific NW..
Goodluck!
Welcome Hal !
Nice to find someone who has done something similar. I thought about using EPDM first, but the thought of trying to fold pond liner in the tank was a great deterrent. Softswim sounds like a great idea, especially from someone who has 12 years of experience.
So, I have lots of questions for you, if you want to oblige the forum. More data is always better, especially in an endeavour w/ relatively little real life data:
What kind of temps do you get in the tank?
How many solar panels? Size? etc.
What did you use for insulation? Outside or inside the tank?
How much insulation?
What kind of wood-fired water heater do you have? You must be making a lot of hot water to preheat a spa, too.
I sure hope we don't run into the leak problems you had. I didn't use a cementous sealer; I used 2 coats of elastomeric shower pan liner, then 2 coats of liquid silicone.
When it was freezing outside all the time 2 weeks ago, we made a lot of fires and that brought the tank close to 120 deg, but now it's been warmer (40-50's) and w/ less fires it's about 100-105 deg currently.
There are quite a few of us in the NW here. Anyway, hope you enjoy this forum!
Marcus
Thanks, I'm glad to be here> I have lurked for awhile. I just picked up a small Kubota EB300. I have two Trace 4024's.. A couple Delco 50DN's, Leece Neville 24V 200amp alternators for a project.
I lined the outside>sides and lid. And all the inside planes.. 2 inch pink foam. I even let the foam float on the water..
My panel is 38' x 12' EPDM twin tubing into copper manifolds. From memory I think that I have 3600' of twin tubing in the panel. The tubing has never burst from a early freeze.
I have hit 200 degrees! End of May I have alot of hot water...
The wood boiler was made in Canada, ceramic kiln, top loaded with a rear heat exchanger. I think it is rated at 250,000 BTU. I actually pulled it out and moved it into my shed. The thing ATE firewood like no tomorrow. It worked well, but I just couldn't see myself spending that much time cutting wood. It was great when we had the wood from clearing our property.
Folding the liner really wasn't that bad. Pre-folded the liner. I was sick when I started losing all my hot water. Digging up the dirt, and then getting the lid off.. That took the time.. I admire you for using stainless. I just bought rolls of 1" copper. It's worked for 12 years..
I have not had a wood fireplace for years. The last one I had needed a fair share of air going up the flu to keep the smoke out. BUT I have to say it really didn't matter that much because there was nothing more romantic than to be with your girlfriend in front of a nice fire and a hot spark jumps out landing on your girlfriends bare A**. I am here to tell you that put the fire out somewhere else. The moral is to use wood other than osage orange " hedge". LOL DD
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Now that's hilarious!
hal, I only have stainless in the oven, it's all 3/8" copper tubing in the tank.