It appears that I have had a head gasket failure on Thumper. In any case, she is in bits and pieces again. I have 3 options in regard to head gaskets that I would like to run by the group.
1) re-use existing gaskets after doing the floor wax thing with the in-between layer and copper coat on the outside
2) use new gaskets after doing the floor wax thing and copper coat thing
3) Order new gaskets from Gaskets-to-go (but this will probably mean a two week wait)
What would you do ?
Jens;
If you have new gaskets do the floor wax thing and get yourself up and running. Then order some from gaskets to go (I've never used them but heard great things) and have some good spares on hand. Don't try to re-use the old ones if they failed.
Liquid Acrylic floor wax, submerge the gasket and let it soak (overnight is good). I never put anything on a head gasket, unless it is something that I plan to reuse the gasket and is a low stress application, then the only thing I use is cheap .99 cent a can spray aluminum paint.
I run the engine until it's good and hot, let it cool until it's not too hot to leave my hand on it, then I re-torque without loosening the head bolts.
Just my opinion, others here probably know more about it than I do.
Ron.
Jens, to answer this question we need to know how the gasket failed. Did it blow out the fire ring or leak water between the layers. On mine copper coat was used between the layers instead of floor wax. Works like a champ with no leakage at all, the original gasket leaked up through the stud for the rocker shaft like yours did. The copper coat was used on a new gasket. Since then I ordered a couple of the gaskets to go units and they look real nice, but haven't used one yet.
I pulled a Wisconsin air cooled engine apart where the head gasket was home made solid copper. Before I reinstalled it I took it to red hot. It worked fine but this was a gas engine and much lower compression.
Casey
if you look very closely my bet is the gskts have cracked internally, the fiber has cracked and there is your water leak
if you look very closely at the folded fire ring, right at the fold, you will likely find a crack running around the fold line
that provides the compression egress ,which cracks the fiber and then you get compression in the water.
time for a new gskt,
i don't recall, but what is the liner protrusion? iirc about .003" is enough
bob g
I seem to remember Gaskets To Go having stock now here in the US. You will need to search the threads to find the post. I don't think it will take 3 weeks to get them.
Any copper coat will be fine. That Permatex will work fine until the new gaskets arrive.
I'd order new composition gaskets and DON'T MESS WITH THEM when the new ones arrive. That means NO copper paint on the new composition head gaskets. The gasket companies spent literally millions on their coatings - no need to think you are going to do better.
Sorry to hear Thumper hasn't been cooperating...
Best,
Steve
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lister-CS-Pattern-Head-Gasket-6-1-8-1-etc-/230565475040?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35aec5f2e0
It is really more important that liner protrusion is consistent all the way around especially in regard to compression leak. Coolant leak issue is more closely connected with the amount of protrusion. Time for straight edge and feeler gauges! My head deck was almost 10 thou. off kilter with the line of bore and had to be resurfaced to get even close on even liner protrusion and then needed the recess deepened to get down to a bit less than ten thou. protrusion. The top of the liner should also be a micro grooved finish rather than dead smooth at least ideally. 2000 psi or higher cylinder pressure is not easy to contain.
.005" might be a little high, but with a good gskt should seal ok i would think
and i agree, the exhaust valve probably is the culprit, if you still have the head off just lay it over with the exhaust port
up and fill it with diesel, the valve should seat tight enough not to allow any significant leak of fuel past the valve/seat interface.
bob g
The acrylic wax should dry; I think it is water borne until it once dries.
Jens,
I don't think there is any way in the world you had a massive head gasket failure. Even a large crack in a head gasket would not allow such a rapid bleed off of the compression. A bent valve, weak spring, rough guide or defective seat would allow such. I agree that a oil test on the upside down head will tell you a lot. If the oil doesn't flow right out the chances are that your lifter system, spring, or guide are at fault. If it does flow right out the seat or valve is at fault.
I am running my little kubota on a used head gasket and it has a couple thousand hours of run time after reassembly. I gave mine several coats of the copper spray stuff with dry cycles between each. I was real careful to torque the head down right and it's been that way since. I'd bet a cold brew that your gasket is fine and can be reused IF you figure out the current issue.
Keep us posted.
R
Jens if you end up needing gaskets I highly reccomend John at Gaskets to Go. I have used him several times, twice to build one off head gaskets and have several sets of his 6/1 gaskets on the shelf, all are first rate. If yours are not a stock item you can scan your old gasket on graph paper and send it to him and in about three weeks you will have them here. I can post a pic of my gaskets if youd like to see them.
Jens
You wrote.
I also had a chance to contact gaskets-to-go and they will get back to me in the new year. I think I will order 4 head gaskets as I expect the two copper coated once to disintegrate. This leaves me one spare set after using the first set.
Please post what you find out as I have always wondered if they make a gasket for that bore size. Might want some for my 10/1.
By the way when you overhauled your engine did it have 1 or 2 oil rings? My 10/1 seems to be losing compression and it seems using high % of waste motor oil just might not be good for the rings and maybe the bore. The reason I ask is the spare set of rings that came with my 10/1 has only 1 oil ring and the original piston had 2? Both sets contain 5 total rings though.
Not to sure about your question on copper coat but the gaskets that I have used it on both sides came out whole but they were for more modern engines where the 2 metal sheets would be somehow crimped to each other not only at the fire ring but also at bolt and water passages. They hold together much better. Now When I assembled my 10/1 I gave it the wax job with liquid floor wax and a brush to apply it. I let it dry and gave both sides a good coat of aluminum paint. And with a second retork after heat up and cool down I have never had any leaks of water what so ever. I cannot remember what the sleeve stand out was but I know as received it was way too high at .010+inches I believe I had it machined to about .005, to much stand out is not good in my eyes with this type of head gasket.
Billswan
Just a few more thoughts I have from reading over the other posts.
When I had John do the head gasket for my Bamfords project I simply measured the old one in a place that looked decent and told him what thickness I wanted. he has lots of choices for material and gave me choices.
I have two sets of Indian gaskets, one that came with my Metro and a set from CMD and let me tell you, they are a joke as compared to John's stuff, it is no wonder to me that people have water leakage and other problems with them. The prior owner of my metro had gooped and glopped the head gasket in an effort to keep the water in the cooling system to no avail. When I took it down for cleaning and proper assembly I went with GTG because I could forsee problems with the supplied Indian gasket. With the materials used at Gaskets to Go you clean up the surfaces, check liner protrusion, plop the gasket on and torque, no goop or glop needed neither should any be applied.
Jens, Not sure if you 20/2 uses the same gasket as my 25/2 but if so I'll take a set myself.
If you use K-W copper coat spray on the gaskets they will not come off without being destroyed once they have ben good and hot and taken a set.
I have nothing personal to gain from giving GTG a big thimbs up but I hate to see people waste time and money with junk. Hang those Indian head gaskets on the wall and forget you own them.
Jens what was the cause of no compression? I am missing it if you posted? If the valve is bent One thing the Indians had messed up on both my 6/1 Metro and my Powerline 25/2 was the valve lifter (decompressor) was lifting the vallve so high it was hitting the piston. This problem is compounded by variances in lash and the notoriously sloppy Indian cam timing tolorances.
never had any issues with indian head gaskets, probably because i never ran one, or an indian engine, however
i have run the living crap out of my 195, tantamount to about 50hours on a dyno at 100 -125% or rated output
the chinese head gskts just would not hold up to the stresses imposed on them, one hour of max output = one failed gasket
contacted gaskets to go, and it took him a while but he found an alternative that not only exceeds my abuse but made one hard
run with the coolant probe measureing 260 degree's F!!
and the gasket lived to fight another day, actually it has been the last gasket i have had to replace.
some things the chinese do really well, head gskts and spark plugs are not two of them.
bob g
i had issues with scanning my head gskt too, i finally just mailed him an original so he could match it up in person.
odd as it would seem, another associate of his noticed my gskt on his desk, and told him he thought he had a gskt on his wall
that would fit my engine,, turns out he was right and John sent me one,, i ended up getting several as the first one passed my
brutal dyno run that would kill an oem changfa gskt.
so now i have a stack of spares i might never use, however the price was right and i like having the insurance.
bob g
Where can the sheet copper be bought to make gaskets out of I used to buy soft copper for gaskets but cant find it. Tom T
Tom, maybe try roofing contractors that specialize in classic restorations. So expensive now that is almost a thing of the past. I think it is described in ounces per square ft or something weird like that rather than by sheet metal gauge or thou. thickness.
Quote from: Tom T on January 01, 2011, 07:26:55 PM
Where can the sheet copper be bought to make gaskets out of I used to buy soft copper for gaskets but cant find it. Tom T
Just looked up sheet copper on ebay, there are 1517 results. Happy Hunting!
flywheel
How about this?
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=93&step=2&top_cat=87 (http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=93&step=2&top_cat=87)
Or try Alaska Copper & Bronze in Seattle
http://www.alaskancopper.com/bb_bronze.php (http://www.alaskancopper.com/bb_bronze.php)
Lloyd
For smaller pieces of copper, I've split copper tube and flattened it. A 1" tube will give you a 3" wide strip.
Most of that stuff on Ebay is either small pieces, pretty thin or wild price. I dont think a single thickness gasket without flexible filler will work with a projecting sleeve cylinder like on the listeroid.
Quote from: Jens on January 04, 2011, 11:25:25 AM
A quick follow-up: I will be sending my old head gasket to Gaskets-to-go in the mail today. I expect it to take two weeks to get there, maybe another week or two to get fabricated and another two weeks for the order to come back to me. I ordered four gaskets, two to be installed during the summer maintenance and two spares just in case.
Did they mention a cost per gasket?
Billswan
Jens
I have used a gaskets to go 8/1 head gasket and it worked very well no weeping anywhere. I used it on a genuine Lister with no liner protrusion with an indian head. The crank broke on that engine and Ive taken the head off and measured the head gasket thickness and its 1.45mm thick when compressed. Ive just measured an old used genuine copper composite gasket and its 1 mm thick when compressed.
The method I used to set the piston to head clearance on the next engine I built was to bolt down the cylinder with spacers (3/4 drive sockets) and place a straight edge across the top of the block and measure the gap underneath the straight edge with a set of feeler gauges. Piston to head clearence on a 8/1 engine is 1.9mm to 2.03mm. So a gap of 0.45mm to 0.58mm would be required. I fitted excess base gaskets of a known thickness and just lifted the cylinder and removed the right amount to get the bump cleatrance correct.
Mick
That extra thickness could be a problem if the cylinder is already on the deck.
Piston to valve clearance is one part of the equation and compression ratio the other. More than recommended is not a problem for the valves (less certainly could be) Reducing the chamber on the nose of the compression plug or shaving the head could get the compression back if you were stuck.
You already have gaskets coming, but there was some discussion about using sheet copper. Did you look at HVAC contractors? My wife got 4 sheets of copper about 14" x 14" for an art project from the guys who installed the backup furnace in our new house. That much cost about $90 w/ some cutting. She said they sold it by the gram, but she doesn't remember the $/gram. Just for future reference.
Quote from: Jens on January 18, 2011, 11:05:37 AM
The four gaskets I ordered will come with 1.5 mm gasket stock. They should be here within 2 weeks or so although I will not be installing the first two until summer.
Jens
Please post a pix or 2 and give us a personal critique of the gasket. I might order a couple now that they have a way of making the right gasket for a 10/1..................
Crossing my fingers hoping for a report of a successful perfect copy in modern gasket technology........
Billswan
I guess I have posted this before but you guys have no worries with GTG. Service, workmanship and materials are all first rate. John's parts will fit and fuction correctly, that you can depend on.
Well all I can say is the GTG gaskets from John that I received looked better than anything I have ever bought from any "American " supplier.
If it had been available, I would have had NO problem installing a GTG headgasket on the Cummins in my truck.
Ron