I'm probably going to use diesel, WVO, bio-diesel and maybe a little RUG mixed in with these fluids.
1) How come folks never use Premium Unleaded Gasoline?
2) Will a standard out-board line pump be OK?
3) Options?
Casey
Quote from: LowGear on November 01, 2010, 12:21:04 PM
1) How come folks never use Premium Unleaded Gasoline?
Because if you're just using it for solvent effect, well, Premium is no better solvent than Regular - the octane rating is not an indication of solvent or chemical properties of the fuel. So save your money!
Thanks cognos,
I haven't brought regular on the farm in years. Well since I got my Kawasaki powered zero turn. 20 minutes on RUG and he can barely crawl back to his house. I put a bunch of Chevron premium (its costing right around $4 a gallon here in Hawaii at this time) and in five minutes "Bob's your uncle." Its nice to know I don't need to keep a special stash of RUG.
Does anyone have any experience with using one of those boat fuel line pumps with Diesel or the fore mentioned oils?
Casey
I just setup a boat 6.6 gallon tank as my day tank for the lister, but it's setup for gravity feed.
Hi Tom,
Does the fuel run through the inline primer pump many of these units have?
Casey
Casey, if gasahol and 2 stroke mix won't eat a primer bulb up, why are you worried about diesel/RUG and used motor oil? Veg oil might harden it up though, but I bet it would take a while before it was unusable.
Or have I grossly misunderstood your concerns?
Ron.
Casey,
I just used the tank and converted it to a bottom drain for gravity feed no hoses. There was a 3/8" npt top fitting with a dip tube to draw fuel up that was removed.
In fact people might want to try this idea for a feed through to make a tank. If you take a brass tire valve stem and drill it out it works good. The one I used had the same dia and thread pitch as 1/8" npt without the taper. After running a die over the threads part way a pipe fitting screw right on and sealed perfect.
Hi Tom,
I'm converting a couple of propane tanks over to use as a diesel / bio-diesel [start] - WVO (or whatever) [run] - diesel / bio-diesel [stop] program.
You're Schrader valve stem sounds good but I love to braze. I thought I'd just set a 1/4 pipe coupling in the top. I've started putting holes in stuff I want inside that a 3" ABS pipe will fit in to and then an ABS cap on the short length of pipe to work as an access and filling port. Eventually, with mechanical float valves I'll be able to set the tanks up, walk away knowing that Mr. Woodie will be treated right. But running out of fuel suggests priming the fuel system for the next run. A line pump seems simple - Keep It Simple Smarty.
Thoughts?
Casey
I have used retired propane tanks quite a few times and enlarged and shrunk them by making one out of two or cutting a piece out and rewelding. Setting in a fitting makes for a stronger and easier to weld or braze if you punch smaller hole and then use a tapered punch or ball pien hammer to enlarge the hole and form a depressed and flanged hole. The threaed bunghole flanges are available at Princess Auto and Northern hydraulic as well as pipe couplings and nipples.
You just have to be entirely comfortable with your method of rendering the tank explosion proof before and during welding etc. Oil or paint inside when heated can go poof as well as the things we usually think of as being explosive.
Hi Frank,
I checked at Princess and Northern Tool (re-directed by google) and no bunghole flanges. I'm gonna find it pretty hard to pass on bunghole flanges. Do they provide for an internal dip pipe going near the bottom of the tank? I like the mechanically enlarged hole so the lip provides more brass area. My plan was to use a 90 with a 12 inch nipple going down inside for pick-up.
I can get pretty loose around a torch - thanks for the reminder. With a 3 inch hole in the top for a week or two I'm not too worried about an unplanned rush. :o
Casey
Hi Ron,
Your observation does ease my concerns greatly. The plan is for the line to be "washed" with diesel at the end of most every run.
Casey
Ron....
"Or have I grossly misunderstood your concerns?"
Maybe you are just gross :D ;D
My boat tank is poly so brazing is not an option. However rust is not an issue either. :)
Casey,
Why do you want to use a primer bulb? Do you have an uphill fuel feed? If so, I'd think an auto type cheap 12v fuel pump would be your friend. It's what I use for my WMO tank. If you have gravity feed, why do you need a pump at all?
Quote from: bschwartz on November 02, 2010, 05:37:07 PM
Ron....
"Or have I grossly misunderstood your concerns?"
Maybe you are just gross :D ;D
I am...gassy too. ;D
Ron
Quote from: LowGear on November 02, 2010, 04:58:37 PM
Hi Frank,
I checked at Princess and Northern Tool (re-directed by google) and no bunghole flanges. I'm gonna find it pretty hard to pass on bunghole flanges. Do they provide for an internal dip pipe going near the bottom of the tank? I like the mechanically enlarged hole so the lip provides more brass area. My plan was to use a 90 with a 12 inch nipple going down inside for pick-up.
I can get pretty loose around a torch - thanks for the reminder. With a 3 inch hole in the top for a week or two I'm not too worried about an unplanned rush. :o
Casey
I know bunghole is not the term used in the catalogue but the item provides a pipe thread opening in medium weight sheeet metal which is much easier to braze onto tanks than the greater mass of a pipe coupling. You can use a drop tube as a fuel pickup but it will not gravity feed unless you create a siphon but I dont have a picture of you layout or pump arrangement. It is not a likely thing but a long unsupported drop tube can break inside from vibration and give you a bit of consternation while you figure out why that tank is full but you get no fuel ???
Hi Ron,
We already knew that.
Thank-you,
Casey
Hi bschwartz,
Yeah, most things in my life are uphill. The Witte has a fuel pump - see photo. I left the this fuel tank back in Seattle. For the next few years I expect to set the tank on the floor. This might sound funny but I hate to lift fuel cans above my waist. One of the reasons I went for a Kubota tractor over a Deere was the ease of filling the fuel tank.
This does segue into the next question: If I put a float valve on the fuel line so that when the tank nears empty it closes off the line and the engine stops from lack of fuel will I need to prime the line and the injector or will it just stop and leave fuel in the line. There is a difference in the next time the engine is ran - right?
Segue Part II: Anyone know of a fuel filter that I could put in-line right next to the pump, maybe even thread right into the pump? I'm not looking for one of those one quart one micron units but at the same time I want something better than the lawn mower filter that is on the line now. Screw-on cartridges are so wonderful don't you agree?
Casey
Casey, If you go this route I think you'll be spending a lot of time bleeding air out of the system. Why not make a raised gravity feed day tank and setup a transfer pump, with a filter, to fill it from a container on the ground. That is my plan. With a clear filter you can monitor the fuel quality as it is pumped.
You could rig a float switch that engages/disengages electrically a decompressor solenoid. That way it would shut off the engine on a low fuel situation without sucking air into the lines.
Hi,
I was under the impression that the way most diesels stop is that the fuel supply is cut-off? A mechanism that would move the compression lever to the off position sounds complicated to me.
I don't see the difference between stopping fuel being sucked up by a fuel pump or a gravity line running out of fuel. I'm thinking the float valve will stop the line from being filled with air. I can be pretty bull headed when I get a design stuck in my head. What am I missing?
The good news is that I'm going ahead with the outboard fuel supply line that has the hand pump built in. You've convinced me I should be able to assess if it's going down hill and presents a threat of fuel all over the blasted place before it happens.
Casey
Casey,
Fuel injection pumps are really good at their job. They suck in fuel and force it under pressure to the injector/s.
My experience shows that they will draw a bit of suction if fuel isn't readily available (clogged fuel line). Where there is vacuum, something wants to fill the void. Fuel would be best, but barring that, air will do. If your fuel lines are perfectly sealed, shutting off the fuel at the tank will ultimately shut the engine off, but a vacuum WILL be drawn into the entire line. Any minor leaks WILL be found, and air sucked in.
Consider this fair warning before going to the trouble of building it only to find yourself repriming the system on a regular basis.
-Brett
Casey
If you could do a gravity feed
think about mounting a white plastic 50 gal, drum (drum #1)or bigger,Over head
You could get your oil from your oil supplier, pump it in to the 50 gal. let that drop into your cleaning device
I use a centrifuge,
Out of your clean drum (drum #2) have a line feeding the witte? and your shop heater that you may want to run on WVO
The plastic can be seen thru drum #1
no brazing just drill and tap
jeff
AZ
Casey, injector pumps DO shut off the fuel ... by closing the rack to stop the fuel. Injector pumps DO NOT like to be forced to pull a vacuum, it can cause permanent damage. Ask some one who owns a 99 or later Dodge/Cummins and had the lift pump fail. I imagine that replacement pumps are quite pricey for your old and fairly rare engine. ;)
Ron
Geezzzzz,
I hate being so ignorant! OK, What's the injector rack? :o
This engine is fitted with a factory lift pump. And diesel guy got me to buy a replacement while they're still available but I don't want to intentionally cause problems. I'll go out and take some pictures of the fail-safe mechanism and maybe we can figure a smart (Simple) way to shut this puppy down when it gets low on fuel. My plan is to set it up for a run and go about my merry business and not have to worry about it until the next time I feel like helping the local utility. Rockey Jones Space Cadet reporting for duty, Sir!
You're getting me there. I do appreciate the interest and education.
Casey
Quote from: vdubnut62 on November 03, 2010, 02:29:01 PM
Casey, injector pumps DO shut off the fuel ... by closing the rack to stop the fuel. Injector pumps DO NOT like to be forced to pull a vacuum, it can cause permanent damage. Ask some one who owns a 99 or later Dodge/Cummins and had the lift pump fail. I imagine that replacement pumps are quite pricey for your old and fairly rare engine. ;)
Ron
Sorry I didn't make the above very clear, insert "injector" after the word replacement.
The rack changes the amount of fuel that the injector pump squirts into the injector, from none to full throttle.
Ron
Casey
I can guarantee you that if you shut your diesel engine off by starving it of fuel, (same as running out of fuel) you will spend more time trying to bleed the air out and getting the engine running again that you will change your mind in hurry.
If you want to spend hours getting it going again go ahead and starve it out. If you have never had to restart a fuel starved diesel the job can be very intimidating for first timers.
I'm sure you have read some of the posts on the forum about fuel starved engines due to suction air leaks, clogged filters etc.
The diesel engine is very fussy when it comes to air in the fuel system.
Anyone else care to add anything??
flywheel
Quote from: bschwartz on November 03, 2010, 01:47:15 PM
Casey,
Fuel injection pumps are really good at their job. They suck in fuel and force it under pressure to the injector/s.
My experience shows that they will draw a bit of suction if fuel isn't readily available (clogged fuel line).
I used to work at a MB dealership, and occasionally we'd get in a 300D or 300SD that mud daubers had built a nest in the fuel tank vent line. It was easy to spot what the trouble was because the steel fuel tank would be sucked flat....
Just thought I'd throw that in.... ;-)
Some fuel injection pumps include a supply pump section that may be gear or vane. It will lift fuel to feed the high pressure injection pump. Some injector pumps have no lift capacity. When you shut a diesel down it is by putting the pump into a zero fuel delivery mode. This will be done by moving the rack and helix or the swashplate or some other similar function within the high pressure section.That is not accomplished by shutting off its fuel supply. Never! When a high pressure injector pump is subject to fuel restriction it will pull a vacuum all right but it subjects it to cavitation damage. This is what Vdub refers to in the cummins losing its supply pump. Do a google on cavitation damage. You might get away with it for a while but starving the fuel supply is definitely only an emergency shut down measure.
Aside from the very real potential for pump damage the shut down event will be slow and stuttering meanwhile the high pressure part of the injector pump will be forced wide open by the governor. As Jens mentioned the pump will then be pulling a vacuum and attempting over time to relieve that by having air sneak in around pump shaft or plunger or even back via the injector. Remember that for the most part only close mechanical fit exists between parts with the intention of a minute amount of bypass existing. You will have problems with air. The old disclaimer your mileage may vary holds true but overall the odds are against it being trouble free.
Casey, the "rack" is usually a rod that passes thru the injection pump that has the govenor linkage connected to it. when the govenor tries to speed the engine up it pushes (or pulls, depending on the application) the rack . the rack has little gear teeth on it , & meshes with the fuel delivery valve that also has teeth on it. as the rack moves it rotates the valve & that either increases or decreases the amount of fuel delivered to the injector.
Scott R.
OK!
I got it. Running Mr. Woodie dry or cutting him off - it's too hurtful.
So here are a couple of photos of the injector pump and governator assembly.
It would seem tricking him into thinking there was no oil pressure or things were too hot might be the easy way to go. Take a look and see what you think?
Casey
WOW! I haven't seen one of those old high temp/low oil shut downs in 25 years, can't even recall what they are called now, but yes fooling the shut downs, or adding a solenoid to the fuel shut down lever would be the way to go. & just for reference, the rack spring is not usually connected to the fuel line as it's stationary mounting point. LOL.
Scott R.
I've found these on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NICE-Racor-320-MarineDiesel-Fuel-Filter-Water-Separator-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45f68d25fcQQitemZ300489188860QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NICE-Racor-320-MarineDiesel-Fuel-Filter-Water-Separator-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45f68d25fcQQitemZ300489188860QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear)
How would these work for my engine?
Casey
Those are nice filters. It is a shame the shipping is twice the cost of the filter. But I think it is still a deal.
Bob
Thanks,
I had forgotten the price significance of the all important word "Marine". They sure are neat with that water bowel underneath. I see some filters only on the net for the low $20s but that's still $30 by the time you get it home. But then how many gallons a year am I going to run through this thing? How many gallons do you think yours is good for?
I think I'm gonna stop by NAPA and WalMart and see what they can do for me before I bid but I'm curious what the gallons per cartridge is for you?
Thanks again for the heads-up. I think I'll rename Camp Aloha to Camp Marine View.
Casey
Casey, if you have access to a Tractor Supply company handy ( I'm not sure, they may be a Southern thing But do have a website)
they sell the Goldenrod filters and housings pretty reasonable.
Here is a link to just their Fuel filter list, you will have to look around a bit. They carry bases and spin on filters too for hydraulic apps.
(it'll work to filter fuel too)
The filters come in 10 and 20 micron also 1 micron IIRC.
Ron
http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?storeId=10551&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=20&beginIndex=0&sType=SimpleSearch&resultCatEntryType=2&error1=&ip_text=fuel+filter&ip_textHH=fuel+filter&ip_requestUri=ProductDisplay&ip_categoryId=&ip_mode=&ip_perPage=20
Well, I've been on quite a chase since checking out Tractor Supply. I've even been to Amazon where I ran into a filter kit for my NPR truck. :o is the closest thing I could find to a light bulb going on. I'm going to do some research on my NPR fuel filter and the Kubota tractor.
Thanks for slowing down enough to do some smart thinking. Pretty handy - one filter for two machines.
Casey