The "redhead" concrete anchors worked great and I got it all bolted down ( not without a lot of effort though! ) and got it running and generating about 1500W ( 6 amps at 127V at each pole ) into my inverters. I watched it for 10-15 minutes and felt the output pipe getting warm but not uniformly, the heat was slowly creeping up the hose. I then went to get some lunch and have the wife come take a gander. Wife wanted to look sooner than my PB&J was ready so we went down and took a look, just then it made terrible noises and steam started coming out of the radiator and water was bubbling in the overflow hose. I shut it down and left the shed to the safety of the out of doors, it was really loud and scary in there! The radiator does not have a cap, the car I took it off of had two caps, one on the overflow and one on another housing. I figured leaving the top of the overflow open would allow air to bubble out of the system and have it be 0 pressure. I'm guessing either I totally misunderstand the way the system works in regard to pressure, the radiator has flow issues, or maybe it's too high up for the water pump which seems to be low pressure.
Ideas? Suggestions? My first order of business is to flow test the radiator with a hose.
Thank!
-Jedon
ps here is a video about 10 minutes before overheating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYuAFAWSU4M
Hi Jedon,
Nice looking setup.
From looking at the video, I could not see if you had a fan on the other side of that radiator.
If you do not have a fan, it's quite possible that you heated the coolant at a faster rate than the radiator could get rid of it.
(Engine making more BTU's than the Cooler can expel).
The small amount of water held in the block and rad. would heat up rapidly without considerable air flow across the radiator.
If that's the case, you need a fan and a source of cool air.
Good luck,
Veggie
I don't have a fan on it yet, I have one sitting there I could try that and take video of the resulting success or fail.
I would say the fan should make a big difference.
Remember to leave the building door open during the test because the air in the room will heat up rapidly.
Ideally, one would have a cool air inlet ahead of the fan.
Looking forward to the next video.
Good luck,
Veggie
If it was running like it is plummed in the above picture, you have more issues than just needing some airflow:
1. The first issue I see is that the hot hose immediatly goes down comming out of the head... It needs to go up. If you had a wood stove, would you run the chimney down thru the floor and still expect a proper draft? Like hot air, hot water likes to go up, not down. the opposite can be said of cool water, it likes to go down, but not up. You are breaking both of these basic rules. You want that hot water to easilly rise away from the head up to the radiator inlet with no dips. You want the cold line from the radiator to go directly down to the cylinder inlet with no rises. Because of those dips in the lines, I doubt you had any thermosiphon flow at all. Hopefully the head wasn't full of air, and the engine just tank cooled by boiling the water in the head and blowing it up the line to the radiator along with the steam and air bubbles, to be replaced by gulping cooler water back down the hoses to replace the steam. If you filled it like that, you may not have gotten all the air out of the head, and that could have done some damage...
2. With a small radiator, you have drastically limited the liquid mass of the system. Thermosiphon is powered by gravity's effect on the water density in the system. You heat the water, it gets less dense than the water lower in the cylinder and it rises up and out the head. The cooler water in the radiator and downhose is more dense and therfore wants to fall. This falling cooler water helps pull the warmer water over the top, and helps to push up on the warmer water as it flows into the bottom of the cylinder. Here is the rub. The weight of the cool water on the downward side(radiator and hose down to cylinder) needs to weigh more than the warm water on the up side(cylinder, head and hose up to the top of the radiator). If this difference is not there, you will not have good flow, or enough flow to overcome any drags in the plumbing. That small radiator dosn't have much fluid in it so it might be that the weight of the cool water isn't enough to overcome the larger volume of warm water.
In your case, vertical is your friend. The more vertical the flows are in a thermosiphon system, the better it will perform. Raise your radiator. This will get rid of the dips in the lines and more properly align them so gravity can help out on the downside. Also make sure that the radiator stays completely full and the top inlet port is always completely submerged. Putting the rad on a slight angle so any air that works out of the system will move toward where the expansion tank is connected will help make sure it stays submurged.
I ran into the small volume problem on my system when I put in the heat exchanger. The total system volume is 2 gallons, including that in the expansion tank. I Initially put the heat exchanger about 12" above the head. The system would not flow enough to remove all the heat at full load. I wound up raising the heat exchanger about 30" above the head. This increased the volume in the cool water downpipe and raised the flow enough to transfer all the heat generated at maximum load.
Here is a clickable thumbnail scale drawing of my system. The heatex is that high above the engine because it has to be with so little a cooling volume. Note the coolant lines are as near vertical as i could get them. You are nearly in the same boat with a small radiator. That radiator has plenty of surface area to remove the heat it needs to with a fan. With good airflow, it could probably cool two 6/1's
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/rmarlett/th_listeroid2.jpg) (http://s270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/rmarlett/?action=view¤t=listeroid2.jpg)
Ronmar,
Good points.
I was going to mention the thermo-siphon also, but then I noticed he has a water pump driven off a crank pulley.
Although vertical travel in the lines is important, it's probably not so much of an issue unless his rad is too far from the pump.
Cheers,
Veggie
PS: I really like your CHP system drawings. Any pictures of the unit that you can post ?
Quote from: Jedon on October 07, 2009, 02:24:48 PM
I watched it for 10-15 minutes and felt the output pipe getting warm but not uniformly, the heat was slowly creeping up the hose.
I'm a thermo siphon guy and the way you describe the heat creeping up the hose I would say the pump isn't doing its job!? I would figure a pump would circulate the water with an even temperature rise with no thermostat. I never had a pump so what do I know. Even with a pump I would keep my hoses from drooping so a thermo siphon could keep my engine alive if the pump failed. The radiator should be sufficient but no airflow will defeat even a big one.
The youtube vid didn't load for me, and I missed the pump in the pic:( I wonder how much head those indian pumps are capable of. If there was an air pocket in the head, it might not have been able to overcome that and raise all that water in the cylinder up enough to push water thru the upper hose. I agree with dave, the description of heat creeping along dosn't sound like the work of a pump in a system without a thermostat... If it was circulating, I think it would appear to get warm everywhere as the warm water from the engine was quickly distributed thru the system.
I am a big fan of thermosiphon. If you can do it without a pump, why bother with a pump??? That is energy that could go to making KW.
Thanks everybody! I'm going to lower the radiator, turn it so it faces the engine, put a fan on it, and plumb in a air bleed at the top to get the air out. I could also shorten the hoses.
Jedon
I put a fan on my 20/2 and also a relay kit so it comes on at a certain temperture and no need of a thermostat. So far it works quite well.
Harv
Quote from: harv_44 on October 08, 2009, 02:23:41 PM
Jedon
I put a fan on my 20/2 and also a relay kit so it comes on at a certain temperture and no need of a thermostat. So far it works quite well.
Harv
In cold weather (if you live where it gets cold) without a thermostat the engine may never get up to operating temperature even without the fan if the radiator is reasonably large.
Carl
It gets down to around 20F at the coldest, we will have 4-5ft of snow most of the winter ( Jan-April )
I don't have a thermostat yet just because I don't have a way to install one, I was discussing joining two housings together with the guy at the local junkyard. I tried ordering one from George at Utterpower but he must be out and about.
I did see some of the radiators at the junkyard that had sensors on them and I think a couple still had fans + sensors so they might just work if I hook 12V up to them ( computer power supply? )
carlb
That's true,I see your point but I think you could size your radiator a bit small. I've run mine below freezing and it worked good.I know our neighbors to the north get a lot colder and would make it more difficult to get to normal operating temp. I just didn't want my fan running all the time. I wonder if you could have both so if the thermostat opened and still wasn't getting enough cooling the fan would kick on. Kinda like a car works.
Harv
If it gets too cool, cover part of the radiator with plastic or something.
That's how I regulate the temp on mine. I should get back on that project and do some more upgrades.
(http://www.cujet.com/assets/images/finished_resized.jpg)
While you can't see it perfectly in the pic, Under the rad is a Grundfos electric water pump that circulates the water just fine. It's hard mounted to the lower water manifold via pipe fittings.
Chris
Nice! Is that about the right height to mount the radiator? My ST-5 is on the other side so maybe I"ll mount the radiator right in between that and the engine.
That rad mount was a temporary thing that was designed to work for "testing" the engine. I has been like that for years now.
A 6-1 can get away with a really tiny rad if done properly with a fan and pump. I would hesitate to hard mount the rad up high on the engine itself. It might vibrate to death.
In the above pic, the rad vibrates a touch, but the fan vibration is out of control.
cujet,
I'm curently building my 6/1 generator and I too will be going with a pump/radiator system.
I agree that the cooling system can be quite compact due to the relatively small amount of BTU's being rejected by the engine.
2,545 BTU's per HP X 6HP = 12,725 BTU
or
3.5 KW elec. output X 3414 BTU/hr. = 11,949 BTU
So, a radiator sized for 15,000 btu heat rejection should be adequate.
That's a very small radiator. Something in the range of 10" X 10" with a single pass.
(Of course it depends on the amount of air passing over it and the ambient temperature of the air.)
I'm intending to build a super compact radiator type cooling system for two reasons.
1] Space availability
2] In future the rad will be a secondary heat dump used after the primary water heat storage tank is up to temp.
I suspect a small motorcycle radiator (and a very powerful fan) should do nicely.
Cheers,
Veggie
It seems I remember ome one using a Honda Goldwing motorcycle radiator on thier 6-1 & it supposedly worked well & had a fan attached too.
Scott R.
If you have space wouldn't a really large radiator with a smaller or less powerful fan be more efficient?
I think the answer to that question is not so simple.
In the end, I think one is as good as the other provided they have the same BTU transfer rates.
In your case the size of the radiator looks quite adequate.
Did you get a chance to to hook up the fan yet?
Looking forward to the video. chug....chug.....chug....chug (My poor impression of a Lister at 650 rpm) :)
Cheers, Veggie
My favorite cooling system approach is the inducted draft method, using the exhaust to draw air through a modest sized radiator.
Some duct work but no fan needed. No extra load on the generator, and useful for guys like me that sometimes run something other than the generator.
I haven't converted my setup to this yet, but I will one day.
Andy Hall posted about this on another forum, quite some time ago. The photo is also his, of the Rumley Oil Pull tractor, which used this cooling method.
Okay I changed the cooling system around but it's still not working quite right.
I removed the 1" heater hose altogether and moved the radiator close to the engine and not as high.
I put in a 1" iron pipe with a T for the temp gauge and then put a 4" pipe on that in order for it to be higher than the radiator and thus be used to fill the system as well as burp the air.
After it was running for a but I screwed the temp sensor in to prevent water from coming out.
I was getting circulation this time and after it got warm I turned the fan on.
As it got hot it started filling the overflow tank and when it got full I shut it off, this caused the water to boil and spill out of the overflow.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/V9ShBTrvkV9KIf79KmQNig?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/aAXDDV6e6KqdRugqi8sXNQ?feat=directlink
Any ideas?
Thanks!
-Jedon
Thanks! Geesh this is all harder than I thought it would be, maybe I can just find a 50g metal drum around here somewhere!
How would I increase volume? Some kind of reservoir inline on the hot side?
Jedon
It looks like in the pictures your radiator is twisted/rotated to the right/clockwise slightly when looking from the engine toward the radiator. Or put another way, the end where the upper hose is connected(nearest the camera) is lower than the other end(farthest away from camera). Is this correct? Setting this way, your radiator would have a huge air bubble in the top tank, with the only radiator coolant tubes under coolant being along the edge directly below the upper inlet hose connection. If this is the case, you may have only had coolant flow thru perhaps 25-30% of your radiator coolant passages, the ones nearest the camera in your pics. And those passages are not in front of the fan...
I can't tell where your expansion tank is connected, but it does not appear to be connected to the top of the system. The expansion tank serves double duty. It allows the fluid somewhere to go when it expands, but it also allows air to exit the system, and replaces that air with more coolant. In order to do this, it MUST be connected to the highest point in the cooling system. In a cooling system air does not flow down thru water... You can fix this 2 ways.
1. Find the highest point on the radiator top tank and drill a hole in it. Epoxy in a small hose barb and connect the line UP to the expansion tank to that new hose barb. Make sure your hose runs upward from head to upper radiator inlet. This upward flow will carry the air to the radiator top tank and from there it will flow up to the expansion tank. This will keep an air pocket from forming in the top of the radiator, and if there is fluid in the expansion tank, the rad must be full.
2. Rotate the radiator so the upper radiator inlet is at the highest point. In the hose where it enters teh radiator put in a T pointing upwards with fittings to connect the expansion tank hose to. I would also suggest a wider fan that covers more surface area. Fans are not very good at blowing air thru a radiator. they are good in conjunction with a shroud at pullijng air thru a radiator, the way most auto applications are configured.
Jens
His expansion tank is perfect for this application. So is his coolant volume, as long as his pump is working, Volume dosn't provide any additional cooling. Cooling is about transfer surface area, and temp difference and flow in the transfer surface areas. You will need to move the same ammount of water per minute in a given radiator/engine/load setup irregardless of the cooling system capacity. You only need enough coolant to cover all the heat transfer surfaces, and be able to pump it.
Quote from: veggie on October 18, 2009, 08:54:30 AM
cujet,
I'm curently building my 6/1 generator and I too will be going with a pump/radiator system.
I agree that the cooling system can be quite compact due to the relatively small amount of BTU's being rejected by the engine.
2,545 BTU's per HP X 6HP = 12,725 BTU
or
3.5 KW elec. output X 3414 BTU/hr. = 11,949 BTU
Veggie
Those are the direct conversion numbers, BTU-HP, KW-BTU ECT... They are for 100% efficiency, which is not ever possible, and do not account for engine, generator or drive efficiencies. The actual numbers thru the cooling system are significantly higher.
As an example, my 6/1 with a 3KW electric load on the ST-5 generator head delivers pretty close to 17,000 BTU/HR of hot water out of the heat exchanger secondary loop. There are of course radiant losses from the engine and heat exchanger surfaces, so the engine heat output thru the cooling system under such a load is probably in excess of 18,000 BTU/HR... I plan on insulating my engine block/cylinder and plumbing and re-measuring the heat numbers, but I just havn't got around to it:)
His tank was overflowing from the expansion of trapped air in the system pushing water out of the system. Waters thermal expansion coefficient is not very high. 1 gallon heated from 40F to 200F would only become about 1.03 gallons. That is about 4 OZ per gallon over that temp change, and that would be for pure water. A water-antifreeze mix expands even less. I use a very similar expansion tank, and it's level varies perhaps 1/2" from 30F to 200F for my 2 gallon system.
Well if you loose colant thru evap and other losses, you will of course no longer have enough in the system:) Mine has been setting in the shed happilly for close to 2 years now. I would be hard presses to measure if there has been any level change in the resovoir from fluid loss...
If your system is incapable of dissipating the heat you generate for any reason, extra coolant capacity in the system is only delaying the inevitable and potentially causing a bigger mess to clean up... That is what level and over temp sensors are there to prevent, because unless you are there to watch it 24/7, the odds of you catching the problem in the act are pretty low...
Ronmar,
17,000 BTU form your 6/1 system sounds a bit high. Here's my thinking:
Of the total heat value present in the fuel only approx. 30% is available for capture from the cooling system.
Assuming a diesel mechanical efficiency of 30%.... (try this with different % values if you wish).
Of the total BTU value of the fuel
30% - Mechanical energy
30% - Heat rejected through the cooling system
30% - Heat rejected through the exhaust system
10% -Other losses (Engine block heat radiation and noise)
So..... if we apply this to a listeroid 6/1 making the full 6HP (4.47 kw)
30% Mechanical = 4.47 kw (6HP)
30% Cooling system rejection = 4.47 kw or 15,250 BTU Max.
30% Exhaust system rejection = 4.47 ks or 15,250 BTU Max
So I would argue that my 6/1 (and yours) running at full load would reject 15,250 BTU's into the coolant.
And under normal conditions (say 80% loaded) the most you would get is 12,200 BTU's.
There is some ambiguity over the exact % of losses through each system for the 6/1 which can open up some debate about the above numbers, but these are the ones I use for my CHP system component sizing.
Cheers,
Veggie
No mentioned it so I guess I will.
In the picture, Jedon's temperature sensor is at the top of a riser, the highest point in the whole system. This seems unlikely to work due to air in the top of the riser. If this is what turns on the fan, this could be part of the problem.
I skip the 10%. I Think those energies can be accounted in the other fields. A straight 33%, or "rule of thirds" is pretty close to correct, at least in the case of my listeroid genset. My initial tests delivered 6 pounds of water raised 45 degrees in 1 minute from the secondary loop of the heatexchanger with a 3KW electrical load. That is 270 BTU/MIN or 16,200 BTU/HR. I did some later tests that were slightly higher, but I cant find those exact numbers and the circumstances of the test. They were however very close to 17,000 BTU/HR, so that is the number I quote now for full load heat output. That is however not quite the full power output of the engine.
Bruce: I know the temp sensor won't work there I was just using it to plug the fill hole since I didn't have a 1" cap handy. The fan is turned on by a loose nut ( me :-D )
The radiator is mounted with the overflow nipple on the bottom because that is how it was in the car and I am unsure if the radiator will function correctly upside down.
I see no way to get the air out of the top of the radiator. There must be a vent or expansion overflow on the top of the radiator. The radiator doesn't care how it is arranged especially with a circulating pump. Even with the high temp sensor tube it won't get the air out of the top portion of the radiator.
I had to mount my radiator sideways to turn it into a "vertical flow" radiator, then had to solder an air bleed fitting (hose barb) on the highest spot.
XYZer is right (no surprise there), you probably have air in the rad.
Quote from: Jedon on October 23, 2009, 10:05:39 AM
Bruce: I know the temp sensor won't work there I was just using it to plug the fill hole since I didn't have a 1" cap handy. The fan is turned on by a loose nut ( me :-D )
The radiator is mounted with the overflow nipple on the bottom because that is how it was in the car and I am unsure if the radiator will function correctly upside down.
Overflow connection to the bottom of the radiator would have been a bad combination for a car also I would think. You have to be able to purge any air from the highest point in the system. The overflow tank is usually attached near the radiator cap to catch the overflow when the radiator cap reaches pressure and vents air or coolant. The radiator cap is usually located at the highest point in the system on top of a short neck so it can trap and discharge any air that makes it to this high point.
I have put body lifts on several toyota pickups. On all of these, I have added a flush port "T" fitting(2 hose barb ends and a capped garden hose fitting) pointing upward to the upper most heater hose back along the firewall. Raising the body 3" makes that the highest point in the system instead of the top of the radiator. Without that port, it is difficult to get all the air out of the system if you drain the coolant. With the "T" fitting in place, purging air is a snap.
That radiator will work in any orientation as long as the pump is moving fluid, and all the air is purged out of any high points. There should be only one high point, and that is where the overflow should be attached. Flip the radiator over so that drain port is the high point in the system connected upward to the expansion tank, and it should work fine.
Here is a pic of my heat exchanger plumbing. That green painted elbow has a hose barb welded into the top of it, and is the highest point in the system. The red hose runs upward from there to the bottom of the expansion tank.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/rmarlett/th_DSCF0021.jpg) (http://s270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/rmarlett/?action=view¤t=DSCF0021.jpg)
I flipped the radiator upside down, cut the hoses a bit, removed the filler neck to the temp gauge and made sure the radiator was level and could filter out air.
It worked! Now if I have the fan on even low it stays way too cold ( 150F ), without the fan it was staying at 170F.
Then the water pump failed >:(
There was a squealing but I wasn't sure where it was coming from. After running for a few hours I came to check on it and the little screw valve on top of the water pump was missing and there was steam coming out of it.
Short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF2MtaupaTI
Longer Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o55T1ECqSUw
So what now? Just remove the pump? Fix it? Get an electric pump?
Thanks!
-Jedon
Quote from: jedon on October 26, 2009, 12:51:31 PM
So what now? Just remove the pump? Fix it? Get an electric pump?
Thanks!
-Jedon
Jedon,.......
Is the plug to bleed air out of the top half of the pump?
If it were me I would loose the pump. It is one of those mechanical things that will fail when you really need it. With a good thermo siphon system there is nothing to break and it will free up a small amount of energy. You have a nice shed to house your power plant and I would model my cooling system like this
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/RADITORLAYOUT.jpg)
Mine are basically like this and are non-pressurized. I also have a thermostat installed to maintain a constant temperature. The large reservoir will help keep plenty of coolant available to cover any evaporation problems.....good luck!
Dave
What Dave said! Thermosiphon works great, and once setup, dosn't break as it is powered by gravity:) You just need a smooth/straight path upward from the head to the top of the radiator, and a smooth path downward from the bottom of the rad to the cylinder inlet. As water heats in the engine it rises to the radiator. As it cools in the radiator it falls back to the engine. It is that simple.
The tank in Dave's diagram insures that the path from the engine outlet to the top of the radiator is always underwater as it must be to operate properly...
Regarding the water pump, a wise man* once said, "If it isn't part of the design, it doesn't fail." And, "Remember if the water pump is not there, it can't fail when you need the engine most."** That's the beauty of these engines, that sourpuss Bob notwithstanding. Splash lubed (no oil pump), crank started (no starter), and thermosiphon cooled (no water pump).
Quinn
*http://www.utterpower.com/hard-lessons.htm (http://www.utterpower.com/hard-lessons.htm)
**http://www.utterpower.com/cooling.htm (http://www.utterpower.com/cooling.htm)
awe patewwwieeeee
:)
you guys and your KISS geeeesh
you would think that all pumps are bad???
maybe y'alls using bad pumps?
ok, to be fair,
there is nothing wrong with splash lube, and thermosiphon, and a handcrank
but geeesh, thank god all these things have been addressed successfully by other oem's
or we would all be having a hell of a time getting the old tin lizzy fired up to go to and from work
each day.
actually if i were to be running a 6/1 i would go with thermosiphon too, the power density is so low
that there is really no need for pumps unless you cannot have your tank or radiator mounted properly
to enable thermosiphon to work properly.
thermosiphon on the other hand is not good enough for a high output changfa, you get too many hot spots
and overheat problems because of poor flow into important parts like the head passage. this is where a pump
really shines and pays its freight.
bob g
The S195 puts out a fair amount of heat when running a heavy load. I also feel the need of a water pump.
My wife's 1993 240 Volvo wagon that has almost 290,000 miles and my 1993 Volvo 240 Sedan with 280,000 + miles only had one water pump each replaced since new. I have no bad thoughts about running a good water pump.
Henry
Well then, that explains it!
You obviouslyl never had a late '60s Ford 289 or 302. Water pump pulley had I think three belts hanging off of it for the alternator, power steering and smog pumps. Crappy design, as was the decision to use the C4 tranny on a V-8, and the underbuilt steering and suspension on Mustangs. But I won't go there. Power came off the crankshaft pulley, so all the load was downward and cantilevered about 6" out from the bearing. To make matters worse, the front water pump bearing also bore the load of the cooling fan sticking even farther out on the shaft. And they didn't bother to balance those things then. So after about 20,000 miles, the bearing would oval, then the seal would go and coolant would start dripping out the relief hole in the bottom of the pump. When I was working in the autoparts store coustomers would come in wanting "that little plug that goes in the hole on the bottom of the water pump. It fell out." When I explained the purpose of the hole, I got called all sorts of things. Told them to go back and check for themselves. That hole ain't threaded and can't take a screw.
Anyway, I know that has nothing to do with these engines, and in those days Ford didn't build cars like Volvo did. But given a simple solution to a simple problem, and one that takes an engineered solution, I'll take the simple one any day.
Bob's right, though, for a short legged engine that's huffing and puffing to keep up with its power demands, and especially one that was never intended to be cooled by anything other than a hopper, a water pump makes more sense.
Quinn
Will some body tell this dumb hillbilly how a Changfa can get too hot when converted from hopper cooled?
I thought they cooled by boiling the water in the hopper, so.... even in a closed system the whole darn thing is underwater anyway??
And if it boils won't the vapor rise to be replaced by liquid?
All right, now go ahead and tell me what law of physics or thermodynamics / fluid dynamics I'm ignorant of. ???
Ron
Quote from: hwew on October 26, 2009, 09:07:22 PM
My wife's 1993 240 Volvo wagon that has almost 290,000 miles and my 1993 Volvo 240 Sedan with 280,000 + miles only had one water pump each replaced since new. I have no bad thoughts about running a good water pump.
Just to put that in perspective... 290,000 miles at an average, say, of 40mph, equates to about 7200 hours. If you ran a generator 8hrs/day, that comes out at about 900 days; rounding up, about 3 years....
Just a bit of food for thought...
indian / chinese pump versus volvo made pump,'nuff said
Vdubnut62, I was thinking the same thing. A pump allows you to downsize the radiator. It also allows you to do away with the vertical requirements of thermosiphon. Heat tramsfer is about temp diference and flow. Less flow requires greater temp difference(larger radiator). I imagine the biggest issue with making a hopper cooled engine work thermosiphon would be in the return pipe orientation and length so it could deliver the cool water to the lowest point in the hopper. A raised top plate would also help the upflow, like a chimney on a woodstove.
Quote from: Dail R H on October 27, 2009, 06:14:25 PM
indian / chinese pump versus volvo made pump,'nuff said
I guess some of you guys might of missed the point. It's ok. What I wanted to point out that there are good pumps made that will last a long time. I would not run a pump that is known for problems like some Chiniese pumps. Why take a risk with a unreliable pump.
I like the Taco circulating pumps that are used for hot water baseboard heating in homes. Simple and reliable. And cartrages are cheap to replace. I seen these run for years with no problems. And when they start going bad you normaly will have lots of noise coming from them for some time before they go.
Bob knows about some good inline automotive water pumps that are used in high end cars. They have been pretty reliable.
Some people can get away with thermal siphon on a Lister 6/1 with no problem.
But running a S195 at or above its rated output puts out much more heat and I see a water pump will help under these conditions. Try pushing a hopper cooled S195 as hard as I did for over an hour and let me know what you think. Steam Pockets could develope in the head and a pressurized cooling system with a pump would take care of that.
Oh quinnf,
I know all about pumps on Ford 221, 260, 289, 289hp K code engine and 302 engines. (Excluding the Boss 302. Wish I bought the used one I found during my High School days)
Your right they would not hold up. I was lucky to get a year out of a water pump on the 289hp K code engine that I stuffed in my 66 fairlane. It seen 7000+ RPM's many times. The fans had no clutches back then and the bearings tore apart untill I changed to a flex fan. Still with the flex fan the life was not much better.
Oh, a friend of mine had a 1972 pinto with a 2.3 turbo with over 30 lbs of boost running a C4 with a tranny brake kit that ran mid 10's. The tranny held up fine. As long as you know how to build one that will hold up. ;D
You know thinking back. I still have his extra set of Crower Rods here. ::)
Yea, I love the 60's and early 70's Ford Muscle Cars. Dam I wish wish I never sold my 1969 Torino Cobra 428 SCJ with drag pack option :'( That was a fun High School car. Back then I still could buy 104 octaine leaded gas. Boy does time fly.
Anyways, don't let a water pump stop you from finishing your project. There are Isuzu reefer engines running with close to 40,000 hours and still doing thier job. :) There are many types of good pumps available. Just find the one that will work for your application.
Henry
two points
i think part of Ronmar's 17kbtu is from engine frictional heating, maybe the difference between veggie's
calculated 15.2kbtu and ronmar's 17kbtu?
as for the changfa
in testing the engine efficiency continues to improve right up till you stuff the rack, at which time you are starting
to make some grey smoke, but not black
the hopper cooling system will be under full on boiling and if you were to look down in you will see many little bubbles
and several bigger bubbles, the big ones are burps out of the head cavities
the thermosiphon flow is just not sufficient to clear the heat from the head fast enough using only thermosiphon flow
at high load levels in my opinion
using a small pump and a block off plate the engine can then run with a pressurized system and run hotter than normal
without airpockets and blown head gaskets.
bob g
Bob I agree,
I believe I pushed the limit and at times went over the limit that hopper cooling is not able to stop steam pockets forming in the head cooling passages. I had the water boiling to the point that the hopper was acting like an erupting volcano. A pressurized cooling system with a pump is a must when running a fully loaded S195.
Henry
Anybody ever try running non aqueous propylene glycol? ( NPG+ ) much higher boiling point than water even with no pressure, that's what I run in my twin turbo rotary RX-7 ( 400HP )
Lots of info here but if you think our discussions are heated... http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=99933 ;D
Well, I'll tell you what I know and maybe you can educate me on how you're using the stuff. The PPG I know is a heavy, clear syrupy liquid, like corn syrup. Because it's so viscous it has to be mixed with water to be useful as a coolant. A 50% solution of propylene glycol in water gives you freeze protection down to -30F, and boils around 220F at atmospheric pressure (which a cooling system isn't), but the price you pay for that is that the specific heat capacity of that solution is only 85% that of pure water. And the higher the amount of PPG you use, the lower the specific heat capacity becomes, which means you have to pump more coolant through a larger radiator to get the same cooling performance you'd get with water or a PPG/water coolant.
So I don't understand the advantage of using straight PPG over a PPG/water, or PEG/water coolant. Especially in high performance applications, about which I admit I know almost nothing.
Quinn
Hello jens,
Good point made.
Sierra coolant or some type of non-toxic coolant would be my choice if you are using an indirect fired hot water maker with an engine to make hot water. You always have to think safty when it comes to making hot water.
Henry
Quinn, NPG+ is non aqueous = no water and you can't mix it with water.
Quote from: Jedon on October 28, 2009, 10:53:00 AM
Quinn, NPG+ is non aqueous = no water and you can't mix it with water.
Then we must be talking about different chemicals. Do you have a link to a site that describes what the stuff is?
[Edit: Oops, never mind. http://www.findtheneedle.co.uk/products/1299967-evans-npg45-r-non-aqueous-propylene-glycol-race-engine-coolant.asp (http://www.findtheneedle.co.uk/products/1299967-evans-npg45-r-non-aqueous-propylene-glycol-race-engine-coolant.asp) ]
Quinn
I take that back. We are talking about propylene glycol. And while they've apparently cut it with something to get the viscosity down to a reasonable level, the table at the end of this .pdf http://www.sprintparts.triumphowners.com/uploaded/89/480184_26non-aqueouscooling.pdf (http://www.sprintparts.triumphowners.com/uploaded/89/480184_26non-aqueouscooling.pdf) shows that its capacity to absorb heat is only 66% that of pure water. So you would need to pump the stuff faster and through a larger radiator to reject the same amount of heat as you would, were you using pure water (which nobody uses, anyway).
It's probably great for high performance engines, or engines whose design and/or operating conditions predisposes them to boilover or developing localized hot spots. Any of the CF hopper cooled engines would probably be a good match for this coolant.
Quinn
Would running a 6/1 hotter than normal be fine if the coolant was okay with it? Since NPG won't boil until much hotter would having it run at say 250F instead of 180F damage the engine? Although it does absorb less heat, the lack of local hot spots should perhaps offset this.
A 50 gallon barrel of NPG+ would be err $1500?
Don't know. It's been talked about, but I haven't heard of anyone actually doing it. There has been talk of using silicone oil, and motor oil, and even diesel fuel as a coolant, but nobody has admitted to having actually tried any of those.
As to whether the engine would be damaged by running higher temps, remember that Listers and their Indian cousins were intended to be cooled by water only. Without even a thermostat. So the areas I'd be concerned about would be the rubber cylinder sleeve o-rings. They might not be up to such high temperatures. And if you have one of the aluminum pistoned 8/1s or 10/1s, the higher temperature might cause problems with piston scuffing. And the higher head temp might burn exhaust valves. But until someone actually tries, that's just caution speaking.
Quinn
I have seen a few changfa 195's online that look to be thermosiphon. There is even one detailed buld article where the person used thermosiphon(not sure who the author is though). He seemd to be happy with thermosiphon from a radiator with up to 5KW of electrical load... http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
This one built by JTodd? Appears to also be thermosiphon, but there is no information about how it runs under load. http://www.loligo.com/projects/changfa/changfa-notes2.html
I have only seen one changfa in person, and never looked in detail at the hopper configuration. Anyone have any detailed pics or diagrams of a hopper on a changfa?
Ron:
the hopper system seems to work fine up to about 6kwatts output, but
after that there gets to be a lot of boiling and as Henry stated a volcano erupts.
somewhere just above 7kwatts the head gskts give up,
the continous rating is 12hp on a 195 and 13.2 for a one hour rating, my belief
is the one hour rating is based on trying to keep water in the tank.
my main concern with deletion of the hopper was to allow for the addition of antifreeze,
raising the coolant temp a bit with a pressurized system, and the thermosiphon system
just doesn't work in a compact system where the radiator is level with the engine, (at
least reliably)
i don't think that there is anything wrong with a hopper cooled engine used properly, but
you are limited as to how much power you can produce and limited to having to have
the radiator mounted higher generally than what i have accomplished with mine.
also of note
the difference in BSFC of a changfa 195 at 5kwatts ouput is significantly higher than it is at 7kwatts
output, i want the lowest fuel consumption in gr/kw/hr that i can get.
bottom line, if you can live with a 195 producing up to about 6kwatts, and have no size constraints
perhaps a hopper or a plated thermosiphon system is a good way to go,
if on the other hand you are going to push the engine and have other automation and electric controls
attached anyway, using a waterpump and having the necessary temp sensor safties in place might be
a better way to go?
the latter seemed right for my application and i am very happy with it.
its just really cool watching the system come up to temp, the tstat open and then watch the system
temp being regulated by the radiators thermostatically cotrolled electric fan. pretty cool watching it cycle
on and off and keeping the engine temps ~206 degree's F and having antifreeze and a 10 pound cap in
place, and it is also nice to see the overflow bottle take on coolant when hot and return it to the system
when it is cool,,, just like the big boys do it.
the only thing i want to add is a spin on coolant filter with DCA additive to keep the coolant system clean
and conditioned.
works for me
:)
bob g