I am slowly putting Thumper back together and I will be asking some questions while I am doing this. Here are the first two:
I slipped the crankshaft back in today and I will need to adjust the tapered roller bearing preload. I am wondering what the best procedure is for doing that. All I can think of is reducing the gasket stacks symmetrically until the crankshaft feels too tight to rotate and then remove one thin gasket to make it feel 'right' .... doesn't seem too scientific to me. Any better methods ?
Sooner or later I will need to install the cylinders. The gasket thickness at the base of the cylinder needs to be set for correct piston clearance. The way that looks to me is to pick a number of gaskets, install them, install the cylinders, install the pistons/connecting rods, install the big end caps, install the heads, insert a small piece of soldering lead as a gauge, torque everything down and pray. If not right, take the whole friggin' thing apart again and start over ..... I am fine with most of that except for the concept of taking half the engine apart to try a different thickness gasket if the clearances are slightly off. Is there any way of doing this in a smarter way ?
Wish me luck with the camshaft timing .... I am not looking forward to that!
Quote from: Jens on September 30, 2010, 01:51:44 PM
I am slowly putting Thumper back together and I will be asking some questions while I am doing this. Here are the first two:
I slipped the crankshaft back in today and I will need to adjust the tapered roller bearing preload. I am wondering what the best procedure is for doing that. All I can think of is reducing the gasket stacks symmetrically until the crankshaft feels too tight to rotate and then remove one thin gasket to make it feel 'right' .... doesn't seem too scientific to me. Any better methods ?
Sooner or later I will need to install the cylinders. The gasket thickness at the base of the cylinder needs to be set for correct piston clearance. The way that looks to me is to pick a number of gaskets, install them, install the cylinders, install the pistons/connecting rods, install the big end caps, install the heads, insert a small piece of soldering lead as a gauge, torque everything down and pray. If not right, take the whole friggin' thing apart again and start over ..... I am fine with most of that except for the concept of taking half the engine apart to try a different thickness gasket if the clearances are slightly off. Is there any way of doing this in a smarter way ?
Wish me luck with the camshaft timing .... I am not looking forward to that!
Jens, You might be lucky and need similar thickness shim pack each side of crankcase but you do have to position the crank timing gear endwise to mate with the timing idler. You may wind up shuffling shims from one side to the other as they set both preload and position. If you haven't already fit the con rod big end bearings and shims, I would do that first with out piston attached to the rod. It is also much easier to turn the engine over without ring drag or danger of disturbing the sleeve and O ring.
Same with the shim packs for setting the cydinder deck height, as you fear you will have to do some trial and error assemble and dis assemble and best not have to deal with the rings until final assembly. You can assemble extra gasket thickness and conceivably tear some out without having to totally lift the jug off but you still have to lift it some. You may have to use some half gaskets too to tilt the cylinder to get the upper surface plumb so squish is even side to side. Perhaps you have had the cylinder face to bore accuracy checked and trued or get lucky so you dont have to use partial leaner gaskets. I chose to machine mine to get the bore straiight, the liner protrusion equal all around and the squish even.
Dont get in a hurry now that you have invested this much. You had a failure of one throw rod bearing so you should check to make sure it was not a cocked cylinder bore that contributed to that. If you find you have a large stack of gaskets you migh choose to use some metal ones to replace some of the paper as they squish less and retain height and torque better. you cant tear them out to discard like you can with paper though.
With practise you can make multiple moves together and have to do fewer backsteps but it is safer to make one move at a time and keep in mind which one has to be done first not to undo another dimension.
Maybe more confusion than help but perhaps some food for thought.
Crankshaft tapered bearing preload? I used the cold endplay method. Set a magnetic dial indicator base onto the crank with the dial indicator/gauge plunger touching the block. Try and push/pull the crank lengthwise and note the crank endplay. Add or remove shim gaskets to tighten or loosen the bearing preload to get the crank endplay to about .005"-.007". Without a dial indicator, that is just loose enough to just barely be able to perceive the "clunk" thru my bare hands as it shifts that .005" As mentioned, make sure the crank to idler gear relationship is correct.
As for the squish, did you note the number and thickness of the installed gaskets, or any half gaskets during the teardown? Add that same gasket thickness plus a few extra paper thin ones and assemble the cylinders/heads and measure squish. This should give you less squish than is desired. You don't have to completely teardown, just remove the head and lift the cylinder enough to tear out the appropriate number of the extra paper thin gaskets and retest. Say you want .045" of squish and you measure .065". You need to remove .020" worth of gasket material to get to the desired squish If you tear out too many, you will have to remove the cylinder and add fresh gaskets. It helps to use a micrometer or vernier caliper to measure the gasket thicknesses before you install them so you know how much each gasket removed will lower the cylinder/head down onto the piston at TDC.
If you have a large powerfull magnet, you can lift the cylinder with piston/rod installed by just removing the big end bearing nuts. You use the large magnet with a crossbar/stick across the top of the piston/cylinder to keep the piston in the cylinder while you remove the whole assembly. I use an old magnetron magnet for this, which is a fat horseshoe type that sticks to the piston head. Thru the gap in the magnet, I slip a wooden stick that rests across the top of the cylinder. This keeps the piston from falling out the bottom while I heft the whole assembly up and over the studs. Since the magnet holds the piston near the top, I can rotate the crank to BDC after I remove the bigend cap, so there is no danger of the rod studs meeting the crank journal. A short length of fuel hose across the ends of the studs is cheap insurance that the studs don't contact anything either.
You can probably get an old magnetron from a marine electronics service shop for free. They are normally discarded after their 2000-4000 hour service life. The Canadian Coast Guard used to have an electronics shop down at Malahat. They probably change them out regularly like we do, so could probably rustle a dead one up for you pretty easilly. Just remove the electronic bits and you have a large strong magnet that is pretty handy. I have a bunch of them and use them all the time...
When you do your squish test, Use two pieces of lead out near the edges of the piston, one over each end of the wristpin(but not under a valve:) the same distance from the edge of the piston. A difference in squish from side to side across the piston will tell you if the piston is true in the bore/cylinder is perpendicular to the crank. If you have more than about .010 difference in squish across the top of the piston, you may need a half gasket under one side of the cylinder base to even things out to get the piston's line of travel parallel with the cylinder bore. #7 shotgun shot is great for squish measurements. The round uniform pellet has a very consistent squish characteristic when mashed. I use a little dab of grease to keep them from rolling out of position.
I did some editing to my above post jens as I typed the original on an ipod. I was pretty sure the spec was around .005", but I will revisit my notes as I was recalling that from several years back.
About gaskets, you can tap out a new base gasket using the bottom of the upturned cylinder in a few minutes. Just cut out the cylinder liner hole with scissors, place the gasket material onto the cylinder base, and tap out the stud holes using a small ball-peen hammer. Tapping on the sharp edge of the holes with the rounded end of the hammer cuts thru the paper and cuts it pretty cleanly and in perfect line with the hole. Once the first hole is cut, drop a bolt into it to hold the gasket in line and move to the next hole and drop a bolt into it. once all holes are tapped out, tap around the edge of the cylinder to cut the outside shape of the gasket. I tapped out all the replacement gaskets I needed for my 6/1 overhaul in an evening using the engines parts as templates, a small pair of scisors, razor blade and a small ball-peen hammer are all you need...
Jens
Here is a link to the third part of Quinn Farnes excellent writeup on building up one of the Utterpower "kit" engines where he explaines the same bearing setup process. It is about half way down the page. http://www.utterpower.com/kit_engines3.htm He also covers some other things such as squish and half gaskets that you might find usefull. I think there was a discussion about the cold crankshaft endplay figure back on the Lister Engine Forum(search preload?). If I recall correctly, the basic jist is cold you want a little bit of clearance to allow for thermal expansion of the crank...
Jens, any procedures I have run across for tapered roller bearings call for some preload. Certainly there are considerations to be made for extreme temperature induced dimensional changes but that would be very small in your engine. The hammering from cyclic loads can be an issue as well as load induced distortion. The rollers basically sit on a ramp and the force of the power stroke will attempt to spread the crankcase housings and cause a sliding action from the tapers of the components; load applied will increase any clearance you see at rest.
If there is no preload or actually clearance, the unloaded rollers must be propelled around their orbits by the force of the cage rather than rolling contact with the races. They engage in skidding action and force realignment when they come down to being loaded at the bottom of their path. Preload keeps them in constant contact and in proper alignment with the races at all times even under the pulsed loads. It may seem counter intuitive but maximum contact pressures and squirming is potentially worse with the initially slack scenario. ~1000 psi combustion pressures on your size pistons is quite a poke to a bearing with a relaxed belly :o
Well guys I will vote with what crofter wrote I was about to write that preload on the tapered roller wins in my book almost every time. Crofter did a much better job of relating his thoughts than I ever could have on a written forum :(.
Billswan
FYI, Here is the discussion I was thinking about from over on the lister forum IRT TRB preload. The .005"-.010" figure came from some indian listeroid manuals...
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=4103.30
Hee hee I know the feeling. ::)
Potter
My engine which was not factory pre run was set up with about 8 thou. of TRB preload; I made up another gasket on either side bearing carrier to get just a slight bit of preload as the nuts were finally tightened down. No way they were set up with any free play. I did however have to take 7 thou shim out of con rod cap as it would not even start to crush the plastigage. Maybe their assembly guy got the specs mixed up.
They are probably expected to assemble an engine from parts in about two man hours. I probably spent two weeks straightening things out to reasonably 1st world specs. Of course that was my free time and actually fun but I went into it expecting to find lots of things out of whack so no disappointment.
Jens, the paper wrap sounds workable. I have used thin shim stock and also carefully wrapping with black electrical tape. The sharp edges of the keyway definitely can damage the seal lips. Filling the seal cavity with grease is good. The leather seals had the garter spring to tension the lip; some of the newer synthetics do not have them. Either way grease should have no negative aspects.
The plywood should work if you can get some kind of a sleave of pipe or such to whump it with. Striking it alternately from one side and the other often just makes them walk around; you have to push squarely on the full diameter.
The paper would probably work, but are you sure you will be able to get ALL of it out? I would say just lube the new seal liberally with oil, and use the tip of your finger in the keyway to depress the seal lip a little to keep it from touching the edges of the keyway as you slide it on.
As for seating the seal, you are probably not going to be able to push it in. As Crofter mentioned, alternatly tapping around the circumference may or may not be successfull, and I have seen the metal seal cups damaged/distorted in this fashon as the seal gets twisted. I also would use a length of 2" ID pipe, just long enough to slip over the shaft and rest against the seal face. If the edge of the pipe is cut smooth and flat, you probably would not need the plywood ring, providing the pipe wall thickness is great enough to cover most of the seal face. The plywood spacer you mentioned would make the pipe diameter and wall thickness less critical. Then I would hold a block of wood over the end of the pipe so I could tap it with a hammer right in the middle to drive the seal home evenly. If everything is clean and lubed, and it is the correct seal for the application, and the force is applied evenly around the seal, it shouldn't take much force to tap it home. A short length of thickwall PVC pipe might even work as a driver...
Quote from: Jens on October 02, 2010, 06:29:06 PM
I did the setup of the crankshaft end supports today and have roughly 3 thou free play but I have only torqued up 2 nuts on either end and suspect it will probably be closer to zero in the end (I will double check when tight). I figure that is a good compromise between end play and preload since this is essentially an unknown :)
Jens
I would shoot for as close to 0 end play as possible. Or even a low negative like .003 preload, the crank case is only flexed out 1.5 thousandts on each side. That will never hurt the bearings or any thing else even at full load and hot operating temps. At least that is how I see it.
Billswan
Quote from: Jens on October 02, 2010, 10:18:43 PM
Quote from: Crofter on October 02, 2010, 06:53:42 PM
Jens, the paper wrap sounds workable. I have used thin shim stock
The shim stock is a great idea. That way I am sure there isn't left-over paper in there. Thanks !
I was just thinking a piece of 35MM film negative might also work well...
Here's another discussion we had regarding TRB preload:
http://slowspeedengines.com/forum/showthread.php?t=770
There appears to be many opinions on this subject.
Some roughness will not harm the seal as long as some lube is present and care is exersized while slding it over the shaft however sharp edges will kill it. All I did to my 6/1 was take a flat file and knock back the corners on the key slot, no need for over kill here, if it no longer feels sharp it isnt going to cut the seal. Once that was done I took a strip of 120 emery and did the shoe shine deal on the shaft. Then I again used my fingers (wonderfull tools) and felt for sharp burrs. When installing the seal turn the keyway up and hold up slightly on the seal while rotating it. A dab of motor oil on the shaft wiped around is all you need and grease behind the seal will help retain the spring. Mine installled in the housings with no sweat but we all know Indian tolorances :o. Ya'll know I am pretty fresh with these engines but in looking over the design it would seem that a person should also spend a lot of time checking over and finishing the crankcase vent as it will play a big role in preventing leaks IF it is working correctly. My Metro vent looked like it had been assembled by a blind two year old on a bad day. Once all the paint goobers were removed and burrs were filed and stoned down and the valve plate corrected mine pulls a decent vacuam on the crankcase as designed to do. No leaks so far but only 10-15 hours on the rebuild.
at least .002" as a minimum is what i would shoot for
.003" is far safer for a variety of reasons.
although it is best practice to use two shims of equal dimension, if you only have one that puts you
into the range of clearance needed, go ahead and use it.
check the clearance at the top of the brg and then recheck at close to the parting line.
everything i have read tells me that more engine's with this type of lubrication (basically splash)
live longer with wider clearances than they do with tight clearances.
because the bottom end oil temps stay relatively cool on these engine's the oil remains correspondingly thick
and fills the clearance quite easily.
a wider clearance is more tolerant of grit than a tight clearance, if you have .003" clearance and the brg can embed
a .002" pos then technically while running the setup can tolerate a piece of grit of about .0035" which is quite large
relatively speaking.
bottom line, is if you set it up and it comes out at .003" i would call it good and run it there myself.
ymmv, imho and all that jazz
bob g
Yep, I'm with Bob an that one.
2-3 thou is good.
0.0010" is a bit risky. Chance of overheating (expanding) and spinning a bearing during intial run-in.
RPMs are relatively low and a good oil wedge with the proper viscosity oil will do very well with 2-3 thou.
veggie
Disclaimer:
The views expressed herein are the soul opinion of a inexperience CHP jockey who has been breathing
Diesel/WVO fumes for 6 months. Any implied knowledge or expertise in the area of discussion is strickly denied
and unusable as evidence in bearing failure court. ;D
Jens, I have kicked around the advice on using variance in squish indications. I disagree with being able to correct it by tilting the cylinder housing with partial gaskets. If the bottom of the cylinder is off square the practice may be legitimate but it is absolutely bogus if the discrepancy comes from uneven top of cyl. geometry.
One reason being that the amount of piston to cylinder clearance limits the amount of cock possible. ;further out of square base may not give any greater side to side squish variance. The possibility of the top surface being also off square complicates matters. You could have equal squish accomplished by a severely cramped piston in the bore.
An important part of what you are doing may affect cylinder liner protrusion. My initial top surface gage .010 difference corner to corner. The top deck was off square with the liner. You cannot correct for that by placing partial gaskes under one side (or corner in my case) of the base.
My final figure on squish was within .002 side to side but that was after machining both upper and lower surfaces. That comes out to .075 but your spec I think is much less. Whatever you do dont make corrections that attempts to tilt the piston in the bore or at the wrist pin hole.
You lucked out on getting a good big end clearance without too much fiddling. My .003 in the picture was after removing a lot of shims and scraping the insert sides near the split line. I agree that tighter fit may not be better for splash lube.
Yes, the half gaskets are only to correct for alignment issues(not perpendicular) between crankshaft and cylinder bore. They will not help issues with piston, rod or cylinder top and head. I havn't heard of too many having issues with cylinder and liner, other than the liner being too long/have too much protrusion above the cylinder. Cylinder and liner being in line are fairly easy to confirm with a flat surface and a dial indicator and magnetic base. With the inner circular edge held against 2 fixed points/dowels on the table, and the dial indicator setup inside the cylinder or liner, the piece is rotated while maintaining contact with the dowels. If the bore is not perendicular to the face edge, you will get a varying measurement at the top. I used a drillpress table for this with 2 bolts installed in the vice mounting slots.
Issues with rod and piston can also be diagnosed by simply measuring differential squish, then unbolting the rod big end and rotating the piston/rod 180 degrees and rechecking differential squish. If your squish numbers swap ends, then there is an issue with rod or piston. A machinest's level is also a wonderfull tool for quickly confirming some of these measurements, such as if the piston top is parallel to the crank throughout the crank's rotation.
Since the case is a large piece to machine, that is where I would expect to find more errors, and is where I have heard of most problems, including my own. My engine had a half gasket under the starting side of the cylinder. All the topend components measured out fairly true. Measurement of the lower end showed the crank not inline with the case top, and that one TRB hole was about .015" off, with the starter side being higher than the other side. I could have very easilly used the half gasket, but opted to true up the TRB mounting situation and bring the crank into line (perpendicular) with the cylinder bore...
My crankcase deck was as true with the cranshaft as I could measure, but the cylinder was off just a bit over .010" diagonally across the cylinder faces. Top and bottom were paralell, just not square to the liner bore. I didnt even check to see what that did to squish side to side since the top at least had to be machined to get even liner protrusion.
I guess the 20-2 calls for the same squish as my 10-1 so you are coming in range. I dont remember the recommended range but they should be close to similar chamber volume on each for compression match on a twin. Without measuring the volume of both heads pre combustion chambers etc. it is pretty lucky to be the same anyway.
We will all be waiting for first fire when thumper is reborn!
That light at the end of the tunnel is not a freight train coming your way....it's a running Listeroid ! :)
Yeeeee Haaaaaa !
veggie
My manual calls for .075 to .080 piston to deck clearance and .055 to.100 valve head recess into the head. Being 5 or 8 thou shy on squish on the one cylinder would likely only be an interference issue if the valve head depth was considerably less than .055". I thought your original concern was with squish discrepancy side to side of an individual piston.
Crofter coud you copy and post the parts of the manual on setting up the gear train and torques for us some of the specs are very hard to come by. Tom T
Quote from: Tom T on October 08, 2010, 07:42:35 PM
Crofter coud you copy and post the parts of the manual on setting up the gear train and torques for us some of the specs are very hard to come by. Tom T
It is not much more than a thin pamphlet and very poor print quality. Somewhere I have a bookmark to a PDF file of a similar complete manual you could pull up. Maybe someone else can put their finger on it in the mean time? Will have a look later.
Ok thanks. Tom T
Tom;
Have a look at my website www.woodnstuff.ca. A complete Lister manual is on there. Follow the link "Articles" to "Lister booklet".
The link I have no workie no more but was virtually the same as John's site.
Tappet Clearances COLD Inlet 0.017" Exhaust 0.032" for 3/1, 5/1, 6/1, 10/2, 12/2.
Tappet clearances for the 8/1 and 16/2 are 0.008" both valves COLD
Valve heads recessed into cylinder head face by 0.055" Min to 0.100" Max
Bump Clearance 0.045" to 0.050" and on 8/1 10/1 etc. and corresponding twins, .070" to .080"
Valve Timing:-
Inlet Opens 5 Deg before TDC and closes 15 Deg after BDC on all engines. Exhaust Opens 45 Deg before BDC and closes 5 Deg After TDC for types WITH compresion changeover valves (3/1, 5/1, 6/1,10/2, 12/2) Exhaust Opens 55 Deg before BDC and closes 20 Deg After TDC for types WITHOUT compression changeover valves (8/1, 16/2)
Probably the longer durations on these engines are due to the much smaller valve clearance settings rather than any difference in components or gear timing.
The Listeroids use fewer but larger cylinder head studs so their torque value is higher than genuine Lister and I have heard that three grunts tight is about right. The only other very critical torque is on the big end rod nuts and calls for 55 ft lbs and advance till the next cotter pin hole registers.(dont back off from the 55 ft lb. setting to get the safety cotter in.
Thanks that heleped a lot. Now need to get back on the 20/2 and get it up and running. Tom T
jens
On the head gasket leaking coolant, did you give the head gasket the liquid floor wax treatment? Or are you using composite gaskets instead of the copper sandwich type.......
On the timing I will let you fight that battle as my memory is getting fuzzy on that subject! :-[ :(
Billswan
Quote from: Jens on November 11, 2010, 03:39:27 PM
is there an easy way to verify camshaft timing with respect to the crankshaft with a minimum of disassembly ?
Last I recall, the intake valve should just start to open at about 5 degrees BTDC, and will be open around .020" at TDC. This is easy to measure with a dial indicator resting on top of the valve spring cap...
As for spill timing, it is the point where the rising IP piston just closes the inlet port that feeds fuel into the IP bore. This is the point where the IP piston starts building hydraulic pressure to pop the injector. To measure this, roll the crank till the IP plunger is all the way up(port closed). Remove the hardline to the injector and the fitting on top of the IP. This has a spring under it that holds the little check valve on the top of the IP closed. Remove the spring and vave and re-install the fitting. Tighten it with a wrench as it holds the bore sleeve in place. Rotate the flywheel backwards till fuel starts to flow up and out of the fitting where the hard line would normally be bolted. Slowly rotate the wheel forward till the fuel flow just stops. The flywheel timing mark should be just at the spill timing point. You may have to rock back and forth a few times very slowly, wiping away fuel with a rag to get a feel for the exact point where the flow stops. Remember that if you are rotating forward, the IP piston is comming up and will push fuel upward and out of that fitting. If you rotate the flywheel thru the port closing too rapidly, fuel will continue to flow pushed by the IP piston, masking the actual closing point of the inlet port. The adjuster nut under the IP will of course allow you to change the port closing to flywheel relationship.
Good luck.
Quote from: Jens on November 11, 2010, 10:43:16 PM
Is my thinking that I should be in the ballpark with the plunger adjustment as it was when the engine last operated not correct ?
Jens
If you have the cam shaft back where it was in relation to the crankshaft then the plunger lifter length should be very close.
Are you positive of the marks that you have that indicate TDC for each cylinder. Could they be off. Did you put them on during your rebuild?
Did you check spill timing before the failure to confirm it was correctly assembled from India.
Be careful I got my 10/1 running but I have never worked on a listeroid twin so my advise might be questionable.
Billswan
I agree with Bill, are you sure your TDC marks are correct? I guess if they are not, then your comfirmation of the intake valve starting to open at around 5 degrees BTDC would also be off, which would really confuse things. If your head is on, you can pull an injector and put a rod down against the piston top and have it push against a dial indicator to confirm the actual TDC point on the flywheel. Since the IP inlet port needs to close by about 19-20 degrees BTDC, the plunger should start to move upward before that... The upward travel of your plunger stopping at 40 degrees after, sounds a little late to me. I don't think I have never measured mine, so have no actual reference to compare to. But since the injector actually fires right around TDC, a IP plunger still rising after TDC dosn't make much sense to me. I will look at mine this afternoon and get you some numbers when I get home, as I need to run the engine for this month anyway:)
ronmar and jens
The diesel injection event is not like a spark in a spark ignition engine. There is a point that injection begins and then some degrees later the event ends. how many degrees I also cannot say without checking. The upward travel ending of the IP lifter at about 40 degrees after tdc does sound wrong but who knows? If it is rising it would have to be pumping or so it would seem to me........ :o
Just thinking out loud not trying to stir up a stink.
Billswan
I went and looked at my 6/1 this afternoon before I started it up. The plunger/tappet begins to rise at around 80 degrees BTDC. The port closed around 19 degrees and the actual injector pop is within a degree of TDC as measured with my audio pickup and timing light. The plunger however continues to rise till nearly 45 degrees after TDC. I didn't think it went that far, but it does
IF you are cranking the flywheel really slowly, you will hear multiple tinks at the injector as it has time to vent fuel to the nozzle and close several times. As you speed up, they will blend into one. If you have a little air in the system, this will also cause this as the air spring absorbs and releases energy right around the injector firing point...
And yes, spill timing can be a very messy evolution:)
Well guys I seam to learn something every day. After rereading the last few posts I learned that the injection pump is more complex than I thought it was.
Jens points out " With the input port opening up again as the plunger travels up, it would seem irrelevant that the plunger doesn't start it's downward journey until well after TDC - the injection event happened at the very beginning of the plunger rise and any pressure remaining is quickly bled off, likely even before TDC"
Makes perfect sense explains the lifter traveling up so late after tdc.
I have never had to take my pump apart because i only use diesel and wmo I have never experenced the gum up you guys on veggie have to fight. And so have never seen the inner workings of the unit.
Good luck jens.
Billswan
Jens
It really sounds to me like the inner workings of your #1 injector pump are 180 degrees
out.
I did the same thing on my 8/1. The effect was I could not shut the engine down!!!
Since yours is not running yet, you don't have that symptom yet.
Also when I flipped the stop lever down (the run position), the engine slowed a little.
When I put the lever in the up position, (stop position), it started speeding up.
The only way to shut it down was to disconnect the fuel line at the injector.
I could have shoved a rag into the air inlet, but I was afraid it would swallow it.
But I can guarantee that I really pay attention now when I pull the IP apart!!
Ralph
I see you have worked through the Injection timing and are onto other new events :o. I have fought the same IP timing issues and became suspect of the rack position while adjusting the spill timing. I never had time to go back and experement with it because I had way more of a diesel puddle on the floor than I cared. I would always wrap a rag around the pump to catch the spill and that would close the rack and cause me to hunt for spill no spill! I always spilled more than was nessary and the rag would become soaked. I would then loose the rag and walla it would time like it says in the book. I still don't know if the rack position affects the spill timing process.....anybody know?
Nice Job Jens!
I like your "pusher tool"
Do you think the damage to the shaft will cause you any trouble?
Rob
if i might make a suggestion, before you file away anything
take a look at where the excess metal came from, it might be (likely is) displaced from somewhere else that it is needed.
if this is the case, as i believe it is, you can often times carefully move it back to where it came from.
i do this a lot on large machines, shafts and pulleys, theaded holes etc.
it goes something like this,
if the metal was lifted up out of the sidewall of a keyway, you can with very little effort put it back into place with careful
hammer work, using many dozens of small pecks basically doing what moved it out of place to start with.
it generally isn't a single event that causes the problem, but hundreds of smaller events.
so just take a small ball peen hammer and carefully work the high spot down in the direction of where the metal came from, do it slowly and you won't cause any problems, it also leaves very little file work and often times no other welding is necessary.
you might find a carefully ground cape chisel sized to fit the groove helpful as well.
welding should be a last resort in my opinion, its generally my last choice.
fwiw
bob g
IT'S ALIVE !!............IT'S ALIVE !!! :o
Congratulations !
Quite normal to have lots of smoke after a rebuild.
There's a lot of assembly oil to get burned off.
veggie
Yes CONGRATULATIONS Jens
Have been here reading about your challenges, it sure takes a lot of time but someday when you finally get it settled down it will have been worth it.
I started mine up a few days ago as it is finally cool enough in minnesota to start heating the shop and so far it has been running about 14 hours a day with no trouble. This year when it gets real cold I hope to run it 24/7. I have roughly 600 hours on my 10/1 and am gaining confidence that most of the bugs have been discovered........
Billswan
Congratulations Jens!
You Did it! I think you will see "Thumper" power up as the ring's seat in. I wonder what other differences you are going to see also.
Good Job!
Rob
Jen's I bet that the fluctuation in crankcase pressure is causing the oil too be "sucked"as it were from the sight glass.
If you could connect the top of the glass to a source of crankcase pressure with out too much trouble, just to find out for sure.
Ron
Well done !
Good to hear that all is generally in order.
Don't forget to re-torque the heads and check the valve clearances after a few hours.
BTW....When are you officially opening your Listeroid rebuild shop ? ;D
veggie
I'll apply the sealing info now, as I'm in the middle of a rebuild on my 6/1.
Well guess what I am struggling with some of the same problems. I thought I sealed the threads but I guess not well enough or I just plane missed some. I have about 800 hours on my engine and at about 650 to 700 it started to turn into a leaking mess. I used cheap rtv and must have been much to stingy with it. It seams you fix one leak here and another one springs up somewhere else.
I am thinking I will have to pull the pump side flywheel and pull the casting that the injector pump bolts to. Seems not only the studs are leaking but the gasket is also. Black mess....................... :o >:( :o
Billswan
Quote from: bschwartz on December 08, 2010, 07:11:56 PM
I'll apply the sealing info now, as I'm in the middle of a rebuild on my 6/1.
Here is a pretty good way to seal leaks at bolts and studs on the listeroids. It is best done during a rebuild or whenever your engine is apart. The parts to be sealed must be oil free, dry and clean.
This is done from inside the crankcase while the engine is being reassembled. I have used this method on my listeroid and it works well.
It works well on any bolt or stud that threads into the crankcase.
Take Permatex and apply it to any bolt or stud where it projects into the crankcase to seal the threads. Do this after the bolt or stud is installed. Where the stud or bolt does not project into the crankcase enough and is in a recess use a small mini brush to seal the threads.
The kinds of Permatex I use is the old paste style stuff, unaffected by gas or oils. I have some of this stuff that is over 25 years old and it still is good.
This seals the threads and prevents oil from leaking from the inside traveling along the stud or bolt.
flywheel
Would this be a good application for the ace hardware stick stuff I've seen mentioned before?
Quote from: bschwartz on December 09, 2010, 07:03:03 AM
Would this be a good application for the ace hardware stick stuff I've seen mentioned before.
No - this is not the right kind of sealer. Permatex works well because it unaffected by water, gas and oils. If you ever get it on your hands you know how hard it is to remove.
You want to seal the area between the threads in the block and studs or bolts AFTER they have been installed. It prevents oil from traveling out thru the loose fitting Indian fasteners.
The more oil you can keep inside your engine means it will be cleaner on the outside.
The Ace sealer is very good stuff, it may work if used like you would on pipe fittings. I have not used it for trying to seal after stud and bolt installation.
flywheel
Flywheel, my thought was to use this in the threads of the studs during assembly, not after the fact.
Is there any reason you suggest sealing AFTER installation instead of during?
Quote from: bschwartz on December 09, 2010, 09:02:58 AM
Flywheel, my thought was to use this in the threads of the studs during assembly, not after the fact.
Is there any reason you suggest sealing AFTER installation instead of during?
[/quote
Yes, you can use the Ace stuff that way, its a very good sealant.
I should have added that the Permatex is used in addition to whatever sealer you used DURING assembly.
The Permatex is just another way of getting extra protection against leaks. That why you would want to apply it AFTER the studs and bolts have been installed.
flywheel
This is what I use for a sealer AFTER fasteners have been installed. Permatex #1, thick like toothpase but probably does not taste as good!
flywheel
I'm probably going to get horselaughed out of here......but I use the old Indian Head gasket shellac on leaky threads. That stuff sets up and is there for the duration.
Caution! If you DO put it on a gasket (which I don't), it will also be there for the duration. You may have to throw the part in the fire to burn the stuff off. :D
Ron.
So I've been struggling with leaks on my 6/1 recently. Just yesterday I used teflon based pipe thread sealant on the head bolts and on the rocker arm assembly bolts. The head bolts aren't leaking anymore (if they were). It still leaks coolant between the rocker arm assembly and the head. The teflon based stuff didn't work for that. Should I try a bunch of RTV silicone or copper-color form-a-gasket stuff next? That coolant seeping into the valve guides can't be good.
Marcus
I had rocker arm leaks too. It was a bad head gasket seal.
Ditto and ditto. A bit of copper coat between the layers of the gasket solved the problem.
Since I don't have leaks outside around the head gasket, I guess I try copper coat between rocker arm ass'y and head first, before taking head off again. Sucks to lose your head.... :)
I'm using a slightly different approach -- I've removed all studs, cleaned all the studs & holes with brakleen, and then reinstalled them all with blue Loctite. This will seal them and also keep them from loosening up -- I'm assuming that like other studs they should only be installed hand tight!