Now that I have got the engine, it is time to start the project and document the progress as I move forward. I hope to run a 150 amp 24v alternator for a battery bank charger, also a 5kw genhead for other loads and heat exchangers on the cooling and exhaust. Some history: The engine was purchased from Mike M. about 5 years ago and never used. That makes it a NEW GM90. I got it home this weekend and got it off the trailer and into the shop on Monday.
Bob
I picked up a napa 253 thermostat ( 195 degree ) and a 1 1/4" union. The thermostat fit real nice in the union. I don't know if it will seal but we will give it a try. I drilled a 5/64 bleed hole in the stat as it had no jiggle pin.
Bob
I plan on running on a WMO - ORD ( off road diesel ) mix. I think I will start at 50/50 ratio and tweak it from there. I plan on starting and stopping the engine on ORD to make it easier to start. I plan on an electric start as cranking is not for me. I am known as " the rugged indoor type" !!! 2 heart attacks years ago have slowed me down a bit. Please feel free to give advice and keep me from going way off track as I play with this project.
Bob
When I first looked at your thermostat "O-Ring" leaped into my mind to reduce side sluice.
Casey
SquareBob, somebody makes a neat Oring thermostat gasket with a channel in it. Think U shaped rubber channel with the ends joined to make a circle.
It may be a toyota truck from about 85-86 with the 22re engine or either a nissan sentra of the same vintage.
Should work like a charm to stop drips.
Sucks getting old, CRS is such a pain....
Ron
If this setup leaks, I will look into that thermostat.
Here are the frame rails I made yesterday.
Had a productive day today. Got the frame rails painted and installed on the engine. Then I set about making the mount for the alternator. Got the pieces made in record time and then tacked the assembly to the frame. I sure am enjoying this project.
Bob
It is the Toyota 22R, RE and RE-T engines that use that split O-ring thermostat seal. 83 to 95... You should be able to get the seal at just about any auto parts store...
The project is looking good. What type starter are you planning, ring gear, belt or contact wheel?
My thoughts are to use a contact wheel setup.
I am wondering if this starter has enough balls to get those big flywheels going.........
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Briggs-Stratton-Starter-16-Tooth-390838-4975594-/140442794807?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20b30afb37
I like this one because it looks like I could get buy without a bearing support on the end of the shaft and it has a mounting tab built in.
Its balls look kinda small to me ;D
That looks like a briggs and stratton starter to me. If so, it's got Chicken Balls, sorry.
Permanent magnet, with a plastic brush holder that melts under heavy use, at least the aftermarket ones.
Ron
I found the starter I am going to use . It is a 1 Kw, 20 pound unit from an early 60s Ford truck. Good flanges and a nice long shaft for the drive roller. Bigger balls than the B&S Starter I was looking at. Cost is 39.99.
Bob
Too hot to work in the shop so a little math test for myself. Lets not worry about parasitic and other losses for now. I need to size the heatex and radiator and hoses to properly remove the heat from the system.
The GM 90 is said to use 235 G fuel per Kw/Hr output. Listed output is 4.4 Kw. Assume 80% load, then 4.4@80%= 3.52Kw
3.52Kw * 235g = 827 grams of fuel per hr consumption
Assume 7lbs and 130,000 btu per gallon of fuel. or 18,571 btu per lb of fuel.
827 grams = 1.823 lbs of fuel.
1.823 * 18,571 btu = 33,855 btu/ hr output. Apply the 1/3rd rule and you get 11,285 btu's each of rotational energy, exhaust btu's and coolant btu's per hour.
Lets look at the coolant first. 11,285 btu/hr divided by 60 minutes = 188 btu's per minute produced.
Assume 50 deg F temp rise. 145 Deg F coolant into engine from radiator or heatex and 195 Deg F coolant out of engine.
Known - 1 btu raises 1 lb of water 1 Deg F
188 btu divided by 50 Deg F rise =3.76 lbs of water flow needed per minute to remove the heat generated.
3.76 divided by 8.34 ( weight of water per gallon ) = .45 gallon per minute flow of water thru engine to keep it cool.
First conclusion: 1/2" dia. heater hose from engine to radiator / heatex will be a sufficient diameter to handle the flow.
I am now exhausted from all the math. Am I in the ballpark here or have I had too much to drink tonight?
Thanks
Bob
I would like to add something with great gravity, insight and intelligence, but all I can come up with is this...............
We need a smiley that scratches his head, then his ass, and repeats.
My apologies to all. Sorry. ::)
Ron
Bob, most every reference I have seen shows #2 diesel at 140KBTU per gallon... Your numbers sound pretty good for 80% load, but perhaps just a little low. I have measured just shy of 18KBTU/HR out of my heat exchanger with my 6/1 at it's maximum sustainable load. I don't know the primary coolant flow as it is thermosiphon and I havn't figured a way to accurately measure it. But I guess using a little reverse math, I can make an estimate. I am delivering 195F coolant to the heatex and the return temp to the engine is around 100F at full load. From that 95F drop I am extracting 18,000 BTU/hr, so 18K divided by 95 = 189 pounds of water per hour thru the primary loop? Divide by 8lb/gal for 23.6 gal/hr. Divide by 60 for approx .39 GPM of thermosiphon flow on my system? I am of course using 1" plumbing, which was convenient as the heatex I chose has 1" NPT ports:).
JusT remember, whatever components you choose need to be sized for full load/worst cooling conditions. The heat must flow from the engine:). What kind of pump are you going to use?
i think the fuel consumption numbers a on the optimistic side, and likely not even close to the reported
numbers at 80% of rated full load.
figure on about 15-20% higher consumption numbers to be safe if you will be running at 80% of rated load.
Ronmar's report of 140kbtu per gallon (US) is a good number as well, and fits with references i have.
bob g
Square Bob if you have not already thought of it. Hockey pucks work real good for starter wheels. Very cheap also. Just an FYI. I will share from experience you want whatever you use for friction to be as close to the starter as possible. Lots of torque way out on the shaft. I did the same thing and now I am building a support which helps support the end of the starter shaft. DD
Thanks for all the replies. I don't know where I came up with 130,000 btu. (brain fart?)
DD, how do you attach the hockey puck to the shaft? got any pics?
Ronmar, I am using the belt drive pump that came with the engine for now. May go with a Taco type later.
Bob
Quote from: squarebob on September 07, 2010, 06:47:45 PM
I found the starter I am going to use . It is a 1 Kw, 20 pound unit from an early 60s Ford truck. Good flanges and a nice long shaft for the drive roller. Bigger balls than the B&S Starter I was looking at. Cost is 39.99.
Bob
Good unit and easy to work on. Also easy to modify to a ball bearing to replace the oilite bushing on the output. Yes, long shaft but remember that the drive gear when engaged was right in next to the endplate. Original gearing was 10 to one or greater so a hockey puck size or a bit smaller running on the rim of your flywheel may be a bit less reduction but will be no problem running the engine up on compression release. To crank without release you might need to back the engine off but it will really be forcing things the first few compression strokes. I would plan on building in a support for the end of the shaft as a friction wheel will most likely bring the force out several inches from Fords design.
If you use a bit of creativity on where you put the fulcrum of the swing mount you can make it virtually self engaging after initial contact. Make the reaction torque pull the friction wheel in rather than repelling it.
Quote from: squarebob on September 08, 2010, 12:35:52 PM
Ronmar, I am using the belt drive pump that came with the engine for now. May go with a Taco type later.
Well if you have read much on these forums, there are some mixed feelings on those belt drive pumps. Some have run them with no problem, some have had them self destruct overnight. I havn't had my hands on one in person, but the last discussion I read had teardown pics, and those just didn't show a pump put together quite right IMO. Knowing that, If it were me and I was contemplating using a pump, I would make plans for a small taco sooner than later... But since all the primary loop fluid flow can be done on this engine without a pump, I never even considered a pump for that. I do use a small taco on the secondary loop, which works very well.
If thermosiphon works on the primary loop with a heatex, I just may " dump the pump" idea and just use a taco on the secondary side. I was under the impression I needed a 55 gal drum for thermosiphon to operate correctly. Looking back on some of yours, and other posts, I see I am mistaken.
Bob
My system has exactly 2 gallons of primary coolant, including about 1" in the expansion tank. With so little coolant volume, the system needs to be oriented vertical in order for the density change to have enough energy to power the system. My avitar is a scale drawing of my system. When standing at the level of the engine mount bolts, the heat exchanger is at eye level. A larger coolant volume would need less height to function. The heatex is a brazed flat plate type 5" X 12" X 10 plates. These have very low flow restriction so are perfect for thermosiphon. Their design also makes them very efficient so a little heatex goes a long way:)
My friction starter w/leece neville. I got my wheel from mcmaster carr. I might do it different on the next one.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/12VSTARTER1.jpg)
In action......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QmWXNo-Gmg&feature=channel
Great video of the starter. Thanks. What are you using as vibration isolation units. They seem to be doing a great job.
Bob
Quote from: squarebob on September 09, 2010, 08:33:36 AM
Great video of the starter. Thanks. What are you using as vibration isolation units. They seem to be doing a great job.
Bob
I used 4 transmission mounts out a early volvo. A walk down the engine mount isle in the friendly local auto parts store gave me some good choices. A good balanced engine also helps.
squarebob,
Your GM90 has the spoked flywheels so I'm assuming it has the 750 rpm governor spring.
At 750 rpm your engine is rated at 6hp.
You can therefore set up a cooling system based on any Listeroid 6/1 information that you can find in this (or other) forum(s).
In my case I use the rule of 1/3 rds. the same as Ronmar suggests.
6HP = 4.47 KW mechanical out represents 1/3 of the total energy created by the fuel.
There will also be ~4.47 of heat rejected by the cooling system.
Based on 3412 btu's per kw:...
4.47 kw X 3412btu = 15,251 BTU's of rejected coolant heat.
If you size the cooling system for 16K BTU or greater, you should be ok.
Nice project.
Please keep us posted.
Veggie
Thanks Veggie.
I was looking thru the manuals today and one says to adjust the valve lash cold and the other one says to adjust it hot. Any suggestions?
Bob
Quote from: squarebob on September 10, 2010, 06:23:29 PM
Thanks Veggie.
I was looking thru the manuals today and one says to adjust the valve lash cold and the other one says to adjust it hot. Any suggestions?
Bob
With pushrod enclosed overhead valve engines it use to be considered that hot lash would be less than when cold. With this style of engine and long exposed pushrods there may not be much difference from hot to cold. The main concern I would say is to be sure that your valve clearance is not on the tight side. Set it cold and check it totally warmed up and see if there is any difference. Choose the setting temperature that gives the larger hot setting. What are the recommended clearance settings by the way?
Cold setting for the GM90 is:
Inlet: 0.250mm (0.010")
Exhaust: 0.350mm (0.014")
veggie
Jens, there is supposed to be a special place reserved in hell for those who sit on the fence in times of crisis! :)
That recommended clearance seems quite liberal. I think the older listeroids 6-1 called for .017" and the 1000 rpm ones .008. but we cant assume that the valve to piston head clashing geometry is similar on the Satyajeets. Some engine arrangements would have the pistons slapping the valves if lash is set too tight. JohnF has mentioned finding cam lobes pinned five or more degrees off spec. so dont err on the tight side. The GM90s might be to more predictable standards but I havent heard a lot about rebuilds and teardowns so far to compare.
Expect to have to reset the lash a number of times as there are a lot of not too well finished surfaces within the valve train which will have to lap into each other before they stabilize and hold the settings
Note that the GM90 is a direct injection cylinder head with different cooling and expansion characteristics than a standard IDI 6/1.
Hence the difference in valve lash settings from an IDI listeroid.
veggie
I will set the valves per veggies post at .010 and .014.
Bob
When it comes time to break in the engine, with only the 24V 150A alternator hooked up, what size load should should I use. The load will be thru a 24V - 3000W inverter off a couple of 12V deep cycles in series. I was thinking of using a 1500 watt heater. Will this be enough load for break in or should I go with 2 heaters? I would assume ( that always gets me in trouble!!) that I should run at the max 750 RPM for break in?
Bob
IMO, you should work it up to full load at full operating temp(better than 190F) as soon as possible. At the least, get it above 75% load...
IMHO, move up in steps.
First 20 minutes at 1500 watts load. Not enough to put all the components at full stress but enough to seat the rings.
Listen for noises, then stop the engine to check the valve clearance, gasket leaks (water), and any other things that might occur on a new engine.
Then step up to 2kw -2.5kw (75% load) for a while and let all the parts settle in.
These engines are designed to run in 750 rpm mode or 900 rpm mode (depending on the flywheels and gov. spring).
Being that yours is the lower of the two, I think it would be fine to run at 750 right from the start.
If you want to be safe, back off the speed nut and run it at 600 rpm for a few minutes until you are satisfied that things are not breaking.
Then bring on some speed and load to break it in.
Pictures ? Video ? :)
veggie
When setting valve clearances, if you get them too tight, you can burn valves and seats.
All that will happen if you go a little loose is a little bit more noise.
IMHO
Ron
A load of parts showed up this week:
Alternator pulley
Serpentine belt
Starter
Drive wheel
I need to finish the alternator adjusting bracket, then fab up a starter mount. No time this week as we have other plans for the weekend. Plenty of pics will be coming next week as the fabrication continues.
Bob
I got some time to work on the project. The alternator mount is now complete. I also fashioned the starter setup and got the governor linkage spring switched around per the utterpower writeup. I also removed the water pump and will try the thermosiphon method of cooling. I will try to upload a you tube video of the starter setup.
Bob
Here is a link to the starter in operation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TAUXy0nWuc
squarebob,
Well done !
Nice setup for the alternator.
Question: What brand of starter motor did you use.? It looks like a straight shaft instead of a spline.
Very nice. Keep the pis and vids coming !
veggie
The starter is from early 60's Ford cars and trucks. NAPA part# 2449627 or Auto Zone part # DL3123 Cost is 39.99. It has a 5/8" shaft. I used a McMaster Carr bushing and drive wheel.
Bob
Quote from: squarebob on September 22, 2010, 07:54:07 PM
The starter is from early 60's Ford cars and trucks. NAPA part# 2449627 or Auto Zone part # DL3123 Cost is 39.99. It has a 5/8" shaft. I used a McMaster Carr bushing and drive wheel.
Bob
Thanks Bob. Looks like an ideal starter for Listeroids.
I'll check my local NAPA dealer.
veggie
Nice startup! Looks like that motor is fully capable of doing the job. My only concern would be that long unsupported shaft...
I didn't like the drive wheel out so far either. I have modified the starter setup a bit. I now have the drive wheel as close to the starter as possible. I will get a new video and pics up soon. I have moved the engine to its final location and set it on some rubber mats.
Bob
I know the starter wont get very much use and the bearings should last quite a long time but i would put pillow block bearing on the outboard side of the drive wheel for added support to the shaft.
Carl
Here are the pics of the starter in its final rendition. I also got the exhaust system piped in today. I will be tinkering with exhaust heat exchange down the road. I have a plate heat exchanger for the water cooling system on order so that will be the next section of the project to get some attention.
Bob
Looking real good Bob!
When you get a chance, look into changing the fuel lines.
The surgical rubber type material they use on the GM90's is questionable.
BTW, I went to NAPA looking for a starter like yours. They have them. Rebuilds only.
"Regular" rebuilt price is $127.00
"Premium" rebuilt price is $365.00 :o
Did you have to make a spacer bushing to mount the rubber wheel or did you get lucky with the bore size?
veggie
Veggie, here is the link for the starter at 39.99 1962 Ford F100 292 V8
http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?A=RSE2449627_0158739165&An=599001+101962+50028+2028016
They show a "premium rebuild for 44.99
The starter is a reman but has a 3 yr warranty. If the bushings or whatever go bad I will just take it in for another one.
As far as the drive wheel goes, this is what I ordered:
Bushing
6391K445 SAE 841 BRONZE SLEEVE BEARING, FOR 5/8" SHAFT DIAMETER, 1" OD, 2" LENGT
Drive roller
2474K41 NEOPRENE DRIVE ROLLER, 80A DUROMETER, 2" DIA, 1.94" WIDTH, 1" ID BORE
You can get a 1" wide drive roller with a 5/8" bore ( shaft size of the starter ) but I wanted the wider one.
What is the deal with the little lines from the filter and injector, back to the tank? What purpose do they serve? What should I replace then with. If I change out the filter setup, the new one won't have that line on it, so what do I do with the injector line.
Bob
Quote from: squarebob on September 25, 2010, 07:08:51 PM
They show a "premium rebuild for 44.99
What is the deal with the little lines from the filter and injector, back to the tank? What purpose do they serve? What should I replace then with. If I change out the filter setup, the new one won't have that line on it, so what do I do with the injector line.
Bob
1] It seems NAPA Canada has a VERY different price list. If I buy from NAPA USA the freight on that 30 lb. starter would be awful.
2] The fuel tubes are for:
a) Air vent for the filter (makes purging easier)
b) Fuel return line from the injector to the tank.
Perhaps others can advise how important the injector return line is.
The fuel filter vent can be done away with, but it's advisable to add an air bleed plug somewhere in your fuel fittings to help bleed the system.
veggie
Here's an example of an air bleed plug with an elevation slightly higher than the filter.
veggie
OK, I like that setup. What did you do with the line from the injector?
Bob
Quote from: squarebob on September 26, 2010, 08:29:12 PM
OK, I like that setup. What did you do with the line from the injector?
Bob
It still runs back to the vent on the fuel tank.
I finally got some work done on the 6/1. I hooked up the 30 plate Heat X and the expansion tank. Then I wired up a little distribution panel. I also took a drive (145 miles one way) to visit Tom and Chris over at Central Georgia Generator. I picked up a new ST 7.5 gen head for the system. These guys are top shelf folks. They also have plenty of inventory and spare parts to draw from.
Bob
Tom and Chris are good people to work with. I am glad you were able to see what he has. Tom built a his buisness with a solid reputation of taking care of his customers.
Henry
squarebob,
I'm assuming there's a pump on the engine side of the heat-X loop.
Where does the other (heated) loop go ?
Do you have a storage tank or hydronic heating system ?
veggie
Veggie, per Ronmar's suggestion, I am just using thermosiphon on the engine side and it works great. Right now on the "domestic" side of the heat X I have a pump and a bucket of water!! The plan is to someday have a 40gal tank for domestic hot water and a radiator in the loop. That way I can heat water and / or heat the shop. I may also end up with a loop feeding some 55 gal drums in the greenhouse for overnight radiant heat in the winter.
Bob
I got my gen pulley from Mike Montieth today. Hooked everything up and was able to finally put a load on the engine and do the break in. Thermo siphon worked well with 5/8" lines to the heatex. My problem was with the governor. As I ramped up a load, the gov would start swinging pretty bad. I could steady the arm with my hand and everything would calm down and run steady. Dropping load was not a problem. I had previously cleaned and aligned the linkage and have it working without any binding or play. The spring is also "reversed" per the utterpower suggestion. I think I might need a different spring. Any thoughts? Weaker or Stronger spring? Maybe it will behave after a few hours of run in?
Bob
Is there slack in the sliding yoke piece that is pinned to the end of the fuel rack? There is the fix using a very light spring to keep the slack all in one direction. It helped me with the hunting problem. Either slack or binding will cause the governor to hunt up and down.
Hi Bob,
Mine did the same thing.
In my case, it was just because the new engine needed to run for 1/2 hour with a bit of load.
I suggest 1kw for your engine. The governor linkage settled down after 10-15 minutes.
Your spring is probably ok. However, note which engine nut holds the spring on my engine.
Your mod seems to have shortened the 'stroke' somewhat. Could that be it ?
veggie
I spent about 3 hours today working on the governor. I ended up shortening the vertical rod from the gov bellcrank to the rack bellcrank by 1 1/2 turns. I also added a small spring to the rack per Crofter's suggestion. After a lot of fine tuning, No load is set at 60.5 Hz. With 2 space heaters, a pedestal fan and a hand grinder as my "full load" I was at 58.5 Hz. No hunting or overrun to speak of. I am a happy camper. Tenacity is a great tool. All the info from the forum helps a bunch too!!
Thanks
Bob
Veggie, here is a pic of mine as it came with the water pump and gov spring in the original position. Mine is on the closest stud. I guess that is why they say "specifications subject to change". The second pic is the current setup. The water pump is taking up space on a shelf right now. Might find a use for it later on.
Bob
Ran the engine again today and I have discovered a coolant leak at the base gasket. Water puddling on the crank base on the ledge of the crankcase base and the cyl head base on the fuel rack side and near the valve guides. Checked all coolant fitting for tightness and all were OK. Shut down the engine, wiped up all the "mess" and cleaned the area with Q tips. Started the engine back up and in short order coolant began to reappear. I would assume if coolant is leaking out, it is also leaking in and contaminating the oil. Haven't opened up the crankcase yet so can't verify at this time. Is this a common occurrence? Looks like I may have to do a major tear down and replace the base gasket. Or would a small amount of "block seal" in the coolant fix the problem. It sure worked well in a car engine with a bad head gasket I had a few years ago.
Bob
Jens, you are right. It is running down the stud. I will remove the head and replace the gasket. Is there a tightening sequence on the head bolts? Is there a torque spec? Can't find one in the manual.
Bob
The GM-90's should not have this problem but, while you have the head off you need to check the cylinder liner protrusion, iirc .000 to .002 is the correct spec (if i'm wrong some one will speak up). if using the copper gasket an old trick is to carefully peal back the copper sheet & liberaly apply some floor wax (johnson floor wax is what they used to use) to both sides of the fiber interior of the gasket. the wax will soak into the material & prevent the coolant from migrating thru the fiber. a better fix is to use a "gaskets-to-go" replacement gasket, they are a fiber gasket with a fire ring & silicone beading applied to the gasket surface. they are being stocked in the US now & should be able to send one to you in a few days. here's a link http://www.listergaskets.com/#Listerheadgasket
Scott.
Lowspeed is correct that the "gaskets-to-go" will solve the coolant weeping into the head bolt cavities. I once had an opportunity to confirm that these gaskets will stop this weeping over a wide cylinder protrusion range. Frankly, I am surprised that anyone would use the copper gaskets these days.
I ran the engine out of fuel today. I filled it back up then cracked open the high side fitting at the pump, turned it over until I got fuel, then tightened it back up. Cranked her over and she started. But now it is not making full power. At full load the rack is fully open and I am only getting 55 Hz. Could there be air in the line between the pump and the injector causing this problem?
Bob
Yes, a bit of air can get trapped and act as a cushion keeping you from getting the solid displacement volume. Usually it will clear but you may have to bleed it further.
It will take a while to bleed the air out of the standard GM-90 fuel filter. It took about 5 hours to have all the air to work itself out by letting it sit and constantly bleeding air out of the top of the filter housing. I went through the same you are going through. Try bleeding the fuel filter again. Also bleed all the lines to the injector pump.
Henry
Time really flies when you are having fun. Here are my latest project updates. I have installed a Delco 10si on the GM90 to charge the starting battery. Works good. Now the problems with the 24V system. I have a 150amp, 24V alternator with an external regulator. The unit puts out 28.5 V and works OK. But I wanted to have a better way to charge the battery bank so I saved up and got a Balmar MC-624. The Mac Daddy of regulators! Removed the factory reg and hooked up the Balmar. Nothing, nada, no juice. The unit ramps up the field voltage to 25 volts but the darn thing will not energize. I hooked up the factory reg and everything works fine. What could be wrong? So I also have a Leece Nevelle 110-412 24V 75amp unit. I put that unit on the GM90, hooked up the Balmar and presto........... Everything works just fine. Nice ramp up to bulk charge and everything is happy. So I know the Balmar works and I know the 150amp alt works but they won't work together. Any ideas as to what I need to do to get the 150amp unit to make some juice? Here are some pics of the 150 amp unit.