Micro CoGen.

i really don't have time, however i do have all the parts  so i might make time to build this unit.

it is a neat and useful little multifunction emergency cogenerator, based on a minimal basic requirement for power, domestic
hot water, air and charging capability,  the unit would be very portable, and take up little space in a garage.

many folks in a emergency situation can get by with under a kwatt of generator capacity, but they need surge capacity
to start more difficult loads such as pumps, microwaves, larger refrigerators etc.

this unit could provide that sort of backup power provided the loads are intermittently above ~3kwatts or short duration or
~2kwatts , or continuous of no more than ~800 watts

the unit could provide sufficient air to fill a car/motorcycle or bicycle tire if necessary, could also charge a dead car battery as well.

the unit incorporates a heat exchanger/water tank with the ability to deliver about one shower per hour of operation, or wash dishes.

i think it might be a very useful project

probably not the most efficient unit, but should rank fairly high on the useful scale.

bob g

this is a section of our forum set aside to list parts, info and sources for all the bits and pieces we run across
that might be to others.

if you find a source, list it here with all the info you can, links, description, price, part number etc

bob  g

for reference purposes the following members are now part of the SOMRAD group

Mobile_bob
Crumpite
Veggie
Hwew
JohnF
WGB
EBI-WPO
Jens
Akghound
Cschuerm
Shipo
Flywheel
Ronmar
Highwater
Terry
Mkdutchman
Westcliffe01
Lloyd
TomT
AdeV
Akatosborne
Slowspeed

i will add others as they come in to this post
if i miss anyone, please let me know, i assure you it is not intentional  

thank you guys for your interest and support of SOMRAD and this forum

bob g

hopefully this is going to work, somehow i managed to shoot myself in the foot and delete my
mobile_bob account in the process, but finally got that sorted out, but lost all my pm's in the process

oh well

anyway the Society of Micro-cogeneration Research and Development (SOMRAD) group and catagory is open
so anyone wishing to join, please either email me or pm me and let me know

the details will be disclosed to anyone wishing to join via email or pm, whichever works for you guys.

i expect this group to be slow growing and we will take it as it comes, and work with it to get it right.

this is an opportunity for anyone interested in the development of a combined heat and power unit to be actively involved
as well as help in the support of the forum in general.

the membership fee will be 15 bucks per year, those proceeds will be used to cover expenses of producing, printing and mailing of
certificates of membership, along with other related materials as they are available, as well as help to cover some of the costs of this forum.

if you guys have any questions please feel free to pm me at your convenience.

thanks guys

bob g

this board is available to provide access to the SOMRAD group for the purposes of asking a question(s) by those regular members
that are not members of SOMRAD.  the goal is to make the SOMRAD group accessible to every member so that questions can be asked in a place where they do not interfere with the project development flow of the other boards.

it is understood that the SOMRAD members will try to respond to question posted here, but there is no guarantee that they will do so for various reasons, such as... maybe the member doesn't report on a daily basis perhaps only weekly or biweekly, and they have limited time?
or perhaps the info you seek is proprietary? or maybe they just missed it?

every effort is going to be made, to make this work!

the SOMRAD catagory exists to satisfy the requirements of the EPA's annual report and as a repository of information on cogen system development that everyone might gain from.

so lets see what each of us can do to make this a reality, something positive and something that will work.

this board will provide an area of discussion to work out control strategies, system architecture, system monitoring
etc. anything from basic to complex controls can be discussed here. a fully functional cogen unit is likely to have some level
of at least minimal automation, such as autostart for battery maintenance, thermal recharge etc. this is the board to discuss
the many facets of this topic

whether we like it or not, we have a responsibility to do what we can to mitigate emissions
topics of discussion are catalytic converters, particulate filters, scrubbers, etc

this board is to discuss anything related to thermal concerns, exhaust exchangers, coolant exchangers, oil exchangers?
storage/ pumps/ plumbing concerns. sizing considerations, where to find information, product availability etc.

the board is for discussing the problems or merits of such things as st vs pm heads
where is one more appropriate over the other? batteries and charging, inverters and control systems
this is the board to get into the weeds on these topics

this board will be for discussing topics related specifically to the prime movers used in cogeneration

we can discuss the merits of specific prime movers for specific applications, pro's/con's, what is needed, etc.

clearly no single prime mover is going to be the single solution to every application, where here in the pacific nw
a 6/1 w/st5 might be adequate, in florida a changfa 1115 w/st12 might be more appropriate.

a fully functional and automated cogenerator likely will need to have electric start for most applications, so either we
use a prime mover with electric start or develop reliable means of adapting electric start to those prime movers that
are supplied without such?

this is the board to discuss these and other matters pertaining to the prime movers

Welcome to the SOMRAD group, the "Society of Micro-Cogeneration Research and Development"

this catagory has been established for members who choose to join SOMRAD,

SOMRAD has entered into a partnership with the US EPA under the "EPA combined heat and power partnership" program

this catagory of the microcogen.info forums exists to provide room for members who are actively interested in supporting, or
wanting to develop combined heat and power units. this catagory will be under tighter moderation than what is common for the
original forum in an effort to keep the topics on topic and to reduce tangeants.

we have the opportunity to do something that no other forum group has done before now, so understandably we have the responsiblity
to try as best we can to do it right. our membership has the experience and expertise to research and then develop fully functioning combined heat and power units that can favorably compete with any currently available commercial technology. at a minimum we can develop basic units that reduce emissions over single purpose genset by very significant amounts, as well as increase the overall efficiency.

this is the next step in our evolution and we ought to embrace the move forward

as time goes on, and as news stories come about they will be posted under this board, updates and info from the EPA partnership will also
be posted here as it becomes available as well as anything else either we or any member feels is of interest to the SOMRAD group.

we are going to use this board to work toward determining the following

1. we need to agree to test protocols, so that we might get as accurate data that is comparable as "apples to apples"

2. we need to agree to test procedures, so that we can all follow the same guidlines

3. we need to use the same methodology, we need to determine and agree to things like what test equipment is adequate
and which will we all use, and

4. we will need to develop a "test sheet"  this test sheet will be used to fill out the "required" annual report to the EPA partnership
so once we have had time to fully evaluate the annual report so that we know specifically what information will be needed, then we
will develop a test sheet that will provide the data to fill in the annual reports entry points. this we will be doing at a minimum.

these test sheets will likely be very basic, perhaps 2 or3 sections, so that we can post monthly updates on system development progress
(section one), system testing (section two), and system operation (section three).

this will provide the information needed to comply with the EPA partnership requirements, it will also be an invaluable resource for others to make comparisons to, so that we all can learn from each others successes as well as failures. it will also provide us with the needed documentation should at anytime the EPA want further information or to verify an annual report made by SOMRAD, without having to
resort to digging up the information should it be asked for. it would be much easier to just have it on hand so that we could refer the EPA
liaison to, should he/she happen to ask for supporting documentation after an annual report has been filed.

far better that we have it on hand and posted prior to, rather than be scrambling to recreate or after having done so find there is a problem.
if we do the documentation here, it will be peer reviewed and if there is a problem it will likely be spotted and corrections can be made before the issue gets too far astray.

this need not be overly complicated or cumbersome "if" we can come to an agreement on certain aspects, such as what do we use to test with? what procedures will we use? develop and use test forms, and file them here by posting them, etc.

let the discussion begin

This board will be more of a diary format in that it will contain individual projects from conception through progression to finish

members are asked to provide the following information and to follow the following format as close as possible

within the first post for a new topic under this board:

1. a brief intro, general area of the world you live in

2. operational philosophy, tell us if your goal is continous operation 24/7, 16/7, 8/7 or ?

3. Bill of materials, tell us what prime mover, what generator head, and tell us as much as you can about what other major components
are used or planned to be used in the construction of your cogeneration unit

4. theory of operation, tell us how the unit will function, how it is similar to existing units, how it differs in operation, etc.

5. stage of development, are you in the planning stages? are you building it? is it complete? are you testing?

6. name the unit, think up a name for you unit so that we might keep track of what unit is what over the course of time.

the above infomation will make it so folks that follow the development of your system can refer back and better understand certain design aspects of your system later when it might not otherwise be so evident. as an example a system built to run 24/7 might well have considerations that a unit built to run 4 hours per day would not share, the above information will help others understand why your system is built the way it is.

following this first post, members are encouraged to then continue on posting under the same topic in a progressive manner
from whatever starting point that is appropriate and do so in a periodic manner as things progress. the end result will be a topic that might look like the following

topic:  john q. public, cogen2000

introduction post: with the above information

next post: start of john's project, thoughts, research, ordering parts etc

next post: receiving parts, small parts manufacture, subassemblies, welding...

next post, assembly...

etc etc.



if we establish a format and try to stick to it, it will be much easier for others to follow yours as well as every other members project
and using the same conventions will make it easy for others to make comparisons where appropriate.

if you feel it is necessary or beneficial to add to the above list, feel free to do so. this is only a general guidline and is not meant to be
something that is cast in stone.

To our members:


When we started this forum approximately 8 months ago, it primarily was to fill the void left from another forum and also establish a new direction or focus. This experiment has been largely successful through the efforts of each and everyone that contributes to the various boards of this forum. Without your efforts this place would never have come as far as it has is such a short amount of time.

We chose to expand our focus from the rather narrow view of primarily diesel engine driven generator sets to one of combined heat
and power. We have done a pretty good job or establishing the various boards that cover the different aspects or components needed
to build effective cogeneration units.

As we know some time ago the US EPA banned the import of the engine's we like to use for our projects, this ban has effectively cut off
the supply of new engines leaving those who have them safe and those who want them out of luck.  Whether one buys into or agrees with the EPA on their reasoning, it is hard to argue against the merits of combined heat and power (cogeneration). In my opinion cogeneration not only makes more efficient use of the fuel that is burned, but is more environmentally responsible.

Should we choose to stay on the same course, over time we will slowly fade away because there are no new engines to supply new members for our forum. Clearly there needs to be more thought given to this reality and what alternatives there might be. We either explore all options or we simply sit around and do nothing, complain about the government and the EPA. In my opinion this serves no purpose and will get us no where, we need to open our eyes to the acceptance of reality and learn how to work within the system.

Over the last few months we have been working toward a membership with the national association of combined heat and power group,
this has been a bit of a problem in that we don't quite fit and the membership fee's for our group is a bit expensive. The hope was to have a seat at the table so that our small voice could be heard and maybe get their lobby to help us with an exclusion for our engine's for use in cogeneration.  There was also another program sponsored by the US EPA called the "EPA combined heat and power partnership".

Of the two options the decision was made to partner with the EPA in their partnership program. To do that we needed and decided to form
a research and development arm of our forum. We decided to align it with the microcogen.info forum because it is my belief that there is much that can be learned from both sides and much that can be cross linked and contributed to.  Currently we have been accepted into the
"US EPA combined heat and power partnership" program with the research and development arm of our group.

The group will be known as the "Society of Micro-cogeneration Research and Development" (SOMRAD) and will have its own catagory within our forum. The focus of that group will be on microcogeneration and systems development. The catagory will be read only by those that are not members of SOMRAD, and fully functional to those of that group. The SOMRAD group will be open to anyone wishing to join and willing to work on some aspect of, part of, or complete cogeneration system. Many of our members may wish to join, while others might well be more comfortable with just remaining as/is and just reading that catagory.

We are still working on the SOMRAD catagory, and hope to have it fully functional over the weekend, i would expect its growth to be slow
and our approach will be methodical.

The partnership with the EPA allows us direct access to an assigned liaison within the agency, it is our goal to establish a working relationship
with the liaison so that we might get the most out of the partnership. The EPA requires very little from us, their primary requirment is an annual report of planned systems, those systems under development, and those systems in place, so that they can determine how much
green house gas reduction these systems are responsible for as opposed to typical seperate electrical and heat production. None of our system information is made public, they only use our information for in house analysis. Also either the EPA or partner can elect to dissolve the partnership at anytime for any reason, should either find that the partnership is not a good fit.

There are many more benefits that we will be discussing as time goes along.

All i would ask of the membership is "lets give this a chance and see if we can make it work for us" it is my belief that we have much more to gain and nothing to lose. Many of us are environmentally conscious, and i suspect all of us are concerned with getting the most out of our systems. To that end cogeneration/combined heat and power makes good sense.

Finally i would ask members not to post to the SOMRAD catagories, until we get them fully operational.

thanks to all, and here is to our next chapter

admin

If you are having problems signing up or have other issues and wish to contact the administrator
please address an email to

admin@microcogen.info

admin

having toiled over this for some time, it looks like this is what is coming down the pipe for our forum

there are two very distinct sub groups in our membership, those that are more focused on power generation
for standby or emergency use, and those that are more focused on combined heat and power.

of the two groups the combined heat and power side generally are more into testing, research and development
and extracting maximum efficiency from the unit, whereas those that are more into backup power are more results
oriented and efficiency, testing and R&D are of lower priority.

thats ok, we should promote both sides, because we can learn from each other.

a while back i was approached to start up a serious Research and Development group or forum, there are those that are apparently
very serious about micro cogeneration and its development but are not keen on getting involved with other aspects or getting mired down
in political discussion etc.  so the question was how best to accomplish this goal of putting together such a group?

there were two choices that came immediately to mind,

one, was to set up a totally seperate forum, that would be very easy to do, but
it would have segmented our group and likely led to hard feelings somewhere and the decline in what we have working here.
so even though it would have been the easiest choice it was not a good one.

two, was to set aside an area within our forum for the combined heat research and development group. the question then becomes
how best to manage the two groups in an effective way so that they might co-exist and be a resource for each other.

it is my firm belief that the DIY group can learn much from EE, ME, Chemical E, Thermal E, Physicists, etc, and i am also convinced
that the professional group can learn a lot from the DIY group that has learned through empirical evidence (school of hard knocks).

so here is how it is going to work

there will be a new section to our forum, this catagory for those not interested can certainly be "minimized" so that the forum will remain looking the same. the overall function of the forum will remain the same for everyone and will remain free to all who want to use it.

the new catagory will be accessible to all, however to participate in that group one will have to join that group, it will also be a "fee" based group. (more on the fee later) The activity and posting done in that group will be accessible as read only to any forum member that is not a member of the research group. If a member wishes to ask a question of that group there will be a single board to address questions to that group.  This is an effort to keep the topics on topic and limit sidebar discussions, tangeants etc.

there are many benefits to both groups for this type of structure, both groups learn from each other, the forum remains free for those that are not interested in joining the group, the section that is fee based will not be as cluttered and will stay on topic, the fee's will provide funding to keep the forum alive (which benefits those that wish not to participate at that level directly), the fee's will also be used to produce a certificate of membership and a card for your wallet, there are also several other benefits that relate to regulations that i cannot go into yet.

the fee rate will be something nominal, and not what most would consider a burden, it will be an annual membership sort of thing.

there will likely also be a means for those who have financial hardships to join the group, my thinking is it will be based on being voted in
based on the quality of the members questions to that group, and other things like background experience.

while i expect there will be many questions, i would ask the membership to take a few moments to think about the prospects, and what there is to gain vs what extra effort it might take to accomplish.

i am not aware of another forum structured in this manner, but then again there is no other forum (that i am aware of) that has the need for this sort of structure (again i can't get into the details of "why" just yet, i need you guys to trust me on this one).  without having a forum structure model to emmulate we are left to develop a model of our own.

at this point i would ask only for a little patience from the membership, any and all support is appreciated, and we shall see if this is something that works out to be as good as we think it should be.

thanks to all that contribute to the success of the forum, you are all much appreciated.

admin

     Over the next few weeks our forum will be going through some changes, mostly minor, with the aim at a
refining our focus.

     There will not be major changes to the basic function of the forum, so there should be little or no disruption to the normal activity
or to the ease of use everyone has come accustomed to.b

     As everyone is very much aware of the US EPA has banned the importation of non compliant engine's which has made in nearly impossible for those looking for suitable small diesel fired engines to find. This leaves us with few options, we could sit back and complain
with no effect, we could risk procuring non compliant engine's and maybe get fined severely, or we can work within the confines of the rules and regulations as set forth by the EPA.

     While we certainly can continue to support those engines that exist, in order for our forum to continue to grow we need to do what is necessary to promote that growth. One way to do that is to use the provisions allowed by the EPA in a manner that allows further development, in turn we will gain new members and also learn how we might also benefit and learn from such development.

     The plan is for these changes to be a positive thing for this forum and its members, if we find down the road that this is not the case, we will address the issue at that time and either revert to what we know best or split off the additions to a stand alone forum
of its own.

     It also cannot be overstated that the success of this forum is based on the contributions of the membership, without you guys
this place would be a much different place and likely no where nearly as successful as it has so far proven to be.


thank you all for your support and continued involvement

admin

we have been at this now going on 7 months, and it is time we start to focus
on what we are about.

the sections pertaining to cogeneration have been moved to the upper section of the forum,

over the next few days some of the lessor used boards will be reviewed to see how they might be
reworked to become relavent and useful to the membership.

as always input is welcome

and yes, i expect that there will be some griping about the changes, i realize folks don't like change, but
it is necessary as we are about to make a product announcement in the next few days that will neccessitate
our being focused on cogeneration to take advantage of it.

more later on that.

admin

in operation, or is planning on building one?

its time we did a little refocusing on our forum get start working on what we are all about.

there are many members that have no use for cogeneration, and that is ok.

there are also many members that are working on various aspects of cogeneration and it is time
we explore what our members have going on.

so lets hear what you guys have going on with your cogenerators or cogen plans

admin

as most of you that have tried in vain today to access the forum have figured out, the forum server was down today

i called the hosting company,
they told me the server that hosts this forum and several others was attacked by a hacker, so they shut it down
till the idiot quit pinging.

evidently the idiot gave up and we are back up and running again.

just wanted to let you all know, that we had no problem with our forum, it was just the server that hosts our forum
that was shut down to keep the hacker from gaining access and hosing the system.

thanks to all for your patience

admin