quality generator

[davpick]

Hi to everyone,

As I new member I have been trying to take in all of the valuable information offered by other members but am struggling to find a thread that covers the issue of quality generator sets suitable to run with a lister CS5/1. On a cost basis it would appear that the chinese ST gen. is the front runner, but I am quite keen to investigate other suitable options with reliability the most important consideration. I cannot afford to have breakdowns or the cost of replacing generators at regular intervals.

I am still unsure what I will end up doing with my lister but it is likely that I will either use it to charge a battery bank to supplement a solar PV system or to use in isolation in my workshop to power tools.

I must also say that I am not in any way technically gifted and will be relying on friends to help me set up my system. I would be very grateful to hear from members who can advise me on how they would set up the lister and what gen. set to buy.

Thanks

Thanks

[mobile_bob]

what voltage battery bank do you have, or have in mind?

if you have a 24 or 48volt bank, given what you have stated i would go
directly to an alternator such as the 110-555jho leece neville/prestolite coupled
with a good controller and be done with it.

your 5/1 ought to drive ~2.5kwatts output which is a good spot for the 555 alternator feeding a 24volt bank or a 48volt bank.

either would be very reliable in my opinion and as efficient as you likely can get.

bob g

[Ronmar]

Well for charging batteries, probably the most efficient approach is an automotive style alternator producing DC directly to the batteries.  This would use a programmable regulator/controller such as those made by Balmar.  This type setup can be made very efficient and will allow precise temperature compensated charge control to take good care of your batteries and make the best use of the fuel consumed.  What voltage battery bank are we talking about here?

The issue with a slow speed CS is it's speed.  It is more difficult to drive a 3600 RPM generator head from a 600 RPM prime mover.  That is a 6:1 ratio, so a 24" flywheel will need a 4" pully on the generator which is going to limit the torque you can transmit thru a belt.  An 1800 RPM generator head is more appropriate for this application, and that will start to limit the choices available to you.  You also need a 2 bearing head suitable for belt drive, or make up an overhung bearing drive to run a single bearing head designed for direct drive.

With these things in mind, the ST head starts to crawl closer to the top of the pile.  ST quality does vary.  The ST-5 head I have is quite good, and produces a fairly decent quality sine wave.  The acceptable quality , price and fairly heavy cast construction is probably the reason so many have chosen them to be belted to their 6/1 engines.  I have been studying these things for quite a while now since I started my own generator project way back when.  I don't think I have heard of a single ST head failure in all that time.  Engine issues yes, but no generator head failures...

As always my .02  

[vdubnut62]

I think RCAvictim has the only ST head with an electrical problem that I've heard of, I did fry the AVR in mine the other day by over loading 1 leg. Doh!
It took all of 5 minutes to disconnect the AVR and crimp on a spade connector then reconnect the harmonic winding  to the rectifier and we were up and running.
Ron.

[mobile_bob]

you can get an 8 groove pulley that is sub 3" to fit the venerable 110-555jho
and belt it to a lister/oid and have no problems, "if" you use a tensioner on the slack
side of the belt to improve the belt contact/wrap angle to something over 120 degree's

efficiencies of 80% on the alternator side can be attained

alternatively if you are planning on a 48volt system, i might be persuaded to using
a modified st5 head.

i would open it up, and separate the stator poles into 4 separate units, individually rectified and then paralleled to give you the maximum capability of the head.

there are upsides and downsides to this scheme

the upside is you could via switchgear retain the ability to get 120/240vac off the head, and also do the 48volt charging.

the down side is the regulator needed for battery charging is going to be a purpose built, custom unit designed to provide field control and do the battery charging correctly, safely and efficiently.

interestingly with you having a cs5/1 the output is only going to be good for ~2.5 kwatts, which means the st5 could be used to produce 24v nominal charging without
overworking the genhead.  the regulator would simply lower the excitation to that needed for the lower charging voltage.

either method ST (modified as described) or the 110-555jho running at either 24 or 48volts nominal would work out to be very close in efficiency, with the 555 doing a bit better if you are running at 48volts.

the last method, which would be the all around easiest would be to drive an st5 head, and feed a battery charger or an inverter/charger. however this would return the lowest efficiency of the available options.  overall efficiency as low as 60-65% likely.

overall efficiency might not matter if you are using this for a standby emergency unit, but something you should really care about if you are planning for this unit to be something that is going to see significant run times.

differences in fuel cost often times outrun equipment cost much sooner than one would think.

i would suggest picking the option that leaves you the most wiggle room down the road as your needs might well change between now and then.

bob g

[Tom Reed]

Bob,

My plan for using an ST5 for 48vdc charging, if I ever get around to it, is to run the approximately 70vdc output into an Midnight classic MPPT charge controller. I guess one could also to that with 110-555jho to, one would just need a resistor to set the field current to a reasonable number. I think doing it this way would allow some flexibility as the charge controller would work with any adequate source of DC one could feed it and at least for me it would also give some redundancy should the charge controller on the PV array fail.

[davpick]

Hi Thanks for the replies which are both varied in their solutions and I must confess a little beyond my full understanding.

I haven't yet decided on what system to go with, but there seems to be good support for a 48 volt set ups both on this forum and other Lister sites. I should explain that the Lister is going out to France where I intend to retire, hence the obvious solar PV and EV set up. I have thought about going off grid completely but the cost is too prohibitive so a 48 volt battery system using a decent inverter may be the way I go. One reason why I am still unsure of what to do is because of the postioning of the lister in relation to my PV system. I am half way up a hill side with terracing all around and actually getting my Lister into the celar where I hope to position my battery bank is going to be a nightmare. If this isn't feasible, I may have to resort to simply using it in my garage as described.

Mobile_bob - how much would it cost to have the set up you describe -   110-555jho leece neville/prestolite alternator coupled
with a good controller and where could I source this kit?

Ronmar - what automotive alternator do you recommend? The point you make about the rpm is exactly the problem I am faced with and the ST1800 appears to be the only choice out there. Where could I get the expertise to help me set up a 2 bearing head suitable for belt drive, or make up the overhung bearing drive to run a single bearing head designed for direct drive. I don't know how long the ST head has been around and how reliable are they when run for long hours that I would need my system to run for. I'm just surprised that there is no British alternative as this would be my preference.

Tom - what is your proposed system and have you costed it?

Many thanks for all your replies and please forgive my ignorance on the subject. I really do appreciate all suggestions and would welcome more based on perhaps a simple to run and manage system.

[mobile_bob]

i will try to answer as best i can given what i  know of you and your proposed project

a 110-555jho can be bought off ebay for ~165 dollars US,  a controller can cost from a bit over 100 to as much as 400 dollars US on ebay. balmar, xantrex, heart interface, amplepower, hehr, sterling are ones i am familiar with, any of which that have a battery sense capability are good enough for the job, so there is no need to spend big bucks. the sterling regulators look like a pretty good option for the money, they are also available on ebay.

the alternator will have to have the diodes upgraded in the rectifier bank, 3 positives and 3 negatives, about about 5-6bucks each, you would want 50amp or better units rated at 200 PIV. 

for about 400 bucks you could put together the core of the system, something capable of producing about 4-5kwatts of charging, 3 step charging regime, and for the cost of a couple sensors you could have temperature compensation and alternator overtemp protection. also the ability to switch on equalization when needed.

you could also use a modified st or better stc (3phase) generator, rectify the output
and provide a purpose built regulator to control the charging. 
with this option you could retain the ability via switch gear to switch between charging and 120/240volt operation (or in france 230vac 50 hz?)

the ST heads have proven to be pretty reliable, i would however order extra sets of brushes and extra sets of slip ring assemblies, also change out the chinese brgs for first world quality units for peace of mind might be a good idea.

bob g

[Ronmar]

What bob said!  The auto alternator setup I was refering to is what bob described.  I concur, that the ST heads have proven pretty reliable, particularly with the bearings swapped out.  their real beauty is that they are very simple and easy to work on, which is probably why they are so reliable...

[Tom Reed]

Davpick, See this thread for a bit more info: http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=2403.0 My plan is to use an industrial 3ph induction motor for the generator. This should give high reliability due to no slip rings. Cost is unknown because I'm trying to find a used motor and then split the windings to lower the voltage.

Bob, Would the 3 phase bridge rectifier I have from the liink above work with the 110-555jho? IIRC alternators were some ungodly high frequency and required special diodes to work.

[rcavictim]

I think RCAvictim has the only ST head with an electrical problem that I've heard of, I did fry the AVR in mine the other day by over loading 1 leg. Doh!
It took all of 5 minutes to disconnect the AVR and crimp on a spade connector then reconnect the harmonic winding  to the rectifier and we were up and running.
Ron.

Ron,

Just for the record,  I purchased the ST-10 in burnt out condition knowing that was the case for $100.  I hope I find time someday to rewind the stator.  I have use for this gen head.  Wayyy too much on my plate to even look at it for quite some time down the road as it stands.

[vdubnut62]

I think RCAvictim has the only ST head with an electrical problem that I've heard of, I did fry the AVR in mine the other day by over loading 1 leg. Doh!
It took all of 5 minutes to disconnect the AVR and crimp on a spade connector then reconnect the harmonic winding  to the rectifier and we were up and running.
Ron.

Ron,

Just for the record,  I purchased the ST-10 in burnt out condition knowing that was the case for $100.  I hope I find time someday to rewind the stator.  I have use for this gen head.  Wayyy too much on my plate to even look at it for quite some time down the road as it stands.

Duly noted. I had no idea as to specifics, just that you were the owner of one in need of work. By the way, it's about time for another bulldozer/windmill update!
Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks, Ron.

[mobile_bob]

most rectifiers like the one in the link are designed for 50-60hz operation, and will avalanche when asked to operate in the region
the 110-555jho will be operating under (400-600hz or more)
what is needed is either the automotive press in diodes or a set that looks like the one in the link but is populated with fast recovery diodes.

the only way to know if the one in the link is setup with fast recovery diodes is contact the manufactures engineering dept.

i like the idea of an external rectifier bridge, the 555 alternator has its stator taps to external posts, so connection would be easy, and having the
rectifiers outboard would aid in cooling the alternator core.

i haven't looked very hard for a source or manufacture of the fast recovery rectifier bridges, that can handle the higher frequency, voltage and amperage needed. so far it has just been easier for me to use automotive upgrade individual diodes. however if the price was right and they could do the job, having a one piece solution would be great.

bob g