Direct VS. Indirect Injected Engines and WVO - Blends

[LowGear]

I want to start using my WVO.  Well filtered but not processed into bio-diesel.  Rumor has it that Indirect is the way to go.  My problem is that the Isuzu NPR I have is a Direct Injection engine.  85 to 92 are Direct and then 93 to 99 are Indirect.  (Dates are only close.)

Does anyone have experience with using various mixes of WVO and diesel or bio-diesel in a Direct Injection engine?  Articles?

Casey

[Tim]

Casey,

I myself am driving for about 4 years WVO. Tried making biodiesel, but love myself too much (chemicals). Two cars, first was not so much a succes, although I learned heaps. That was a indirect with Bosch VE injection pump.

Second is an inline injection pump from the Mercedes stud. This goes pretty well. Note that there are many mistakes to be made, most of them before you put it in your tank. Filtering, dewatering and degreasing is some you need to do very well. This is the key to 2km of WVO fun or >1 million. Clean and in good shape injectors is second, followed by pre/post glowing and heating the WVO before injecting.

Direct is nog problem at all, only keep in mind that without load your engine will leak fuel to the oil pad. Diesel evaporates next engine load, veggie oil doesn't. BioH posted a nice movie what happens if you oil level gets too high. I also recommend using engine oil that can cope with the veggie oil, like Plantomot. Otherwise your oil will turn into mayonaise.

Regards,
Tim

[LowGear]

Thanks Tim,

No free lunch huh.  I'll see if I can find the movie. 

Plantomot oil?  That's a job for google.

The diesel evaporating and VO not really caught the little gray cells on rest mode.  When the paint thinner dries you have paint left so my guess is the same thing would go for diesel mixed with VO.

These engines cost about a grand in wrecking yards and back yard auto wreckers.  $1000/$5=200 gallons of diesel.  And 200*15=3000 miles.  Perhaps the $1.50 a gallon for the bio-diesel process is worth it.  I'm doing about 2,000 miles a year presently but I can see that number skyrocketing to 3,000 over the next year. 

I've been looking into sticking a Mercedes into a Toyota 4Runner.  What does "stud" mean?

Casey

[Tim]

Casey,

No thinner . When diesel leaks into the oil, for example during idling for a while, it will evaporates the next time the engine is on full load. The oil gets hotter, evaporating the diesel fuel in it.

Veggie oil will not evaporate from the oil, so either your level will rise or your engine is so worn it will die soon. But veggie oil is no engine oil, so it will start gumming your engine oil. Therefore use Plantomot or something similar.

But why go through all this trouble is your only doing 2k a year?

Stud means stable, stall, sty

Tim

http://vimeo.com/18374860

[LowGear]

But why go through all this trouble is your only doing 2k a year?

Don't think that question hasn't come up in a couple of my self diagnostic moments.  The Isuzu dump truck is only the start.  Then there will be the Kubota tractor.  Mr. Happy should be up by next year.  The transportation mantra for Camp Aloha is "If it ain't diesel I ain't buying."  So the next smallish SUV will be a diesel.  It might have to be a Mercedes station wagon.  If I ran into an all wheel drive model I'd probably buy it immediately.

Did I mention I've got a back yard full of WVO totes.  I should have my first bio-diesel batch out this month.  (I've said this for 14 months now.)  In case you didn't notice, we're kind of between a rock and a hard place on energy creation in the US.  In the future we will have no alternative but to change.  Either use less energy or find other sources.  Both will probably be the answer.

Your help and genuine experience is greatly appreciated.

Casey

[WStayton]

Casey:

  I've sorta been thinking of "grafting" a Mercedes 5 cylinder into a Dodge Dakota pick-up, for the reasons you state!

  I would like to be able to have fuel for my vehicle WITHOUT paying some muslim potentate, who hates the ground I walk on, a King's ransome for the priviledge - and then be at their mercy for what they are willing to sell the fuel to me for!!!

  Not sure if the "grafting" will ever come to fruition, but it IS on my list, al be it down a ways!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[LowGear]

Hi Wayne,

I think there are adapters already made for the Tacoma.

Casey

PS.  I don't care if they're Muslim, South American or Russian.  Wouldn't it be funny if Israel developed a butt kicking bio-fuel and started competing with their neighbors on the energy market.  Anyway, Petro-chemical prices are on the way up whether its high octane gasoline, diesel or plant food.  And I don't blame them for the prices nor their attitudes.  He who lives by the market economy must be willing to die by the market economy or be really pissed off.  Palm oil has become cost prohibitive for most bio-fuel programs.

[WStayton]

LowGear:

  I've got 14 acres, so I guess the answer is to plow up a couple and plant canola!!!  <grin>

  There was actually a diesel Ddoge Dakota made in the late '90's that used a VM Motori 4 banger, but they never sold it here - only S. America and Europe.   Sort of makes me cry that the EPA has taken away all the toys!  <grin>

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[LowGear]

I think the Amerkan attitude towards diesel may have some influence on the hesitation of anyone to seriously market non studly equipment with a diesel engine.  OK, VW but most of them probably have used Apple computers since pre-school.

I still can't figure Dodge out.  Why they don't have a 4 banger diesel Dakota or are not using that world class 6 in their big daddy SUVs.  This is a company that was still building Chrysler 300Ds in this decade.  When fuel hits $7.00 a gallon I may get my diesel Hummer.

I'm very much under the impression that the older Mercedes engines are the ones to have if you're going to run much VO through them.  And the 4Runner is almost size appropriate for our needs.  You know there's Canada with all those stinking 4Runners sporting factory turbo diesels.  My dad was Canadian; maybe I could claim Canadian citizenship and bring one down as a tourist.

Casey

[veggie]

Casey,

1] Biodiesel
BiodD is acceptable in IDI or DI engines. It can be used 100% or mixed with dinoD without any modification to engines newer than 1994.
Pre-1994 engines may need to have elastomer fuel hoses changed from buna to viton.
Other than that, go ahead and burn all the biodiesel you want. Your engine will love it.

2] Blending WVO
This is where there is no clear rule. Partly because of the same reasons why we get mixed results from people burning waste motor oil.
NO TWO WVO's ARE THE SAME.
Huge variations in quality are caused by:
-Temperature in which the cooking oil was used
-amount of fatty acids
-amount of water
-amount of polymerized oil due to oxygen and high temps.
-the length of time the oil was used before it was disposed
-how long it sat in the dumpster (sunshine heat = bacterial growth and rancidity)
-animal fat content
-etc...etc..

So, there is no clear recipe for blending. What work for one may fail miserably for another.
Each must asses their supply, do a few tests for acidity and water and, in my opinion, process the heck out of it in the form of dehydration and cleaning/filtering.
Get the cleanest least used oil as possible (generally Chinese food restaurants are good, stay clear of pizza and burger joints) and try to get them to refrain from allowing any water or cleaning agents to get into there fryer oil when emptying.
Heavily used oil has a strong smell. Semi-high end restaurants change there oil quite frequently so that the odor/taste does not effect their food. They usually have good quality WVO.
Once you have that, you are well on the way to making a respectable blend.

veggie

[LowGear]

Well I have revisited my decision.  I'm thinking a gallon or two every once in while is a good place to start and far safer than the 50-50 I was considering last week.  The oil I use has set for months in 70 degree weather and comes out of the 5 micron filter looking pretty nice.  I did put about two gallons in yesterday and got home.  I did put a full once or so of cetane booster in the premixer.  Until the bio-diesel processor gets fired up I'll just throw a in enough WVO to maintain about a 10 percent solution.

Casey

[WStayton]

LowGear:

  I read through this again, paying attention (Yup, some times, even I, pay attention!  <grin>) and I noticed that you say:  "85 to 92 are Direct and then 93 to 99 are Indirect."

  I have done exactly zero research on Isuzu diesel engine, but MOST manufacturers first built an indirect injection engine, because that was what most of the early small-mid size diesel technology was, and then, later, changed to direct injection diesels because they are more efficient than indirect and handle a little higher rpm before they have problems.  As I said, I'm not sure if this is true for Isuzu, or not, but most everybody else worked this way.

  About Mercedes diesel's:  Their older, indirect injection engines seemed to be very well suited to use of SVO/WVO and lots of road engines were run on straight veg oil in the warmer weather with NO additional heating, fuel treatment, (beyond basic filtering/cleaning) etc.  I am sorta skeptical of that working long term, since when the engine starts it will, just by the way the beast works, be cold and have veg-oil collect out on the relatively cold cylinder walls and the combustion chamber - but some people swear that it works acceptably for them!  Color me disbelieving that they will be able to do this for a long time with no problems!  <grin>

  The newer common rail direct-injection Mercedes engines are reported to not work very well, if at all, on 100% veg, since they use high pressure injection systems that need very specific characteristics for the injectors to work properly and they don't have the old-style combusiton chamber to pre-burn and thus pre-heat the veg-oil.  Use of any sort of veg in one of the high-pressure common-rail systems seems not to work well, also, due to the very tight tolerances in the injection-pumps/injector.  Where filtering it down to a 3 mil filter seemed to be okay for the old style system, the new ones needed something better than 0.5 mil which makes filtration very expensive and critical.

About using only 10% veg in any diesel:

  Aside from the need to preheat issues, I THINK that a mixture of only 10% veg should work in almost ANY diesel engine, once up to temperature, just beacuse you have the other 90% to "light the fire" and thus elminate all of the non-startup problems.

  How much can you use in the mix and not have a problem?  That is a really big variable, reported to be dependent on the engine (i.e., indirect vs direct and just the basic engine design . . . old Mercedes being generally good and new, high-pressure injection engines being generally bad) and the duty cycle that your are operating on.  An engine that is operating at 80% of available power is going to be accepting of a larger percentage of veg-oil than the same engine operating at 30% of available power.  What will work for your engine only you can find out - and I think that you are going about it the right way by starting low and then, if no problems develop, gradually increasing to a larger percentage of veg.  Be advised, though, that most problems don't develop instantly, with things like injector fouling and ring coking taking progressively less time to manifest themselves as you increase the percentage of veg in the mix, so you might get injector fouling on 10% veg after a few hundred or even a few thousand hours and on 90% veg, after a few tens of hours, with in between percentages being  . . . surprise, in between!  <grin>

  The above is worth exactly what you paid for it - i.e., nothing!  YMMV!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[LowGear]

I put an ad on CL last night looking for a second fuel tank for the NPR.  The one that's on it is about 25 gallons so another 25 gallons will be handy in any case.  When I get it hanging off the frame we'll look at different strategies for heating  and whether to send it through the existing fuel filters and pre-heat all injector fuels regardless of their heritage - dino or veggie.

Most of the tanks I see are the 36 to 48 inches.  I have room for an additional 27 incher like the one that's there now.

Casey

[WStayton]

Hey guys!

  I made one collossal mistake of omission (well, I probably made lots of them - but ONE that I know of!  <grin>) in my previous message . . .

  I neglected to say that everything that I said was based upon road engines, not constant speed generator-engines.

  How much of it applies to c/s generator engines is a matter of debate and you have to form your own opinions - I have no experience, either from reading/studying or in practice with any constant speed generator engine - as most of you have figured out by now!  <smile>

  Sorry if I mislead anyone - it was unintentional!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[veggie]

Hi Lowgear,

Earlier in this thread it was stated that  "85 to 92 are Direct and then 93 to 99 are Indirect."

It's unusual that the older models would be Direct Injection and the new models be Indirect.
Was this a typo ?


Hi Wayne,

I agree with your statement that 10% veggie oil mixed with diesel should run in just about ANY diesel.
This is probably a very safe place to start and then alter the ratios as data and confidence become available.
(Except for my VW diesel where the manual states that anything more than a B5 mixture will screw up the catalytic afterburn system   )

My opinion only....but the most important qualities if you are going to blend fuel are....

A] Viscosity:
The goal is to get the fuel as close to the viscosity of diesel as possible.
I don't think that blending with diesel fuel will ever achieve this. The more WVO you add to your diesel the thicker the mix will get and the more need for a diluent.
Therefore a powerful diluent like RUG makes sense to me.
A typical blend to shoot for might be 50% WVO, 35%% diesel, 15% RUG
HOWEVER.... (this is where may thinking breaks away from traditional fixed ratios)
Being that Viscosity is the ultimate goal, let the liquid be your guide and don't rely on a fixed set of % ratios.
I think the viscosity goal should be achieved with the use of a simple viscosity meter or a home made tool to time the flow of diesel vs. the mix through a fixed orifice.
Why ? because each batch of WVO can have a different viscosity and mixing each blended batch to a common viscosity goal helps to ensure the consistency of your fuel.
Add the diluent until the desired viscosity is reached.

B] Cleanliness of the fuel:
It must be dehydrated, de-salted, and be filtered to at least 5 micron.
- Dehydrate with heat and air flow
- De-salt with a water wash (not always necessary, but important to remove if your WVO supply contains lots)
- 5 Microns achieved by the filtration method of your choice.

So....in effect each batch you do might be a different ratio of WVO and thinners but the end result will be a consistent viscosity and cleanliness.

A "Blend" practitioner should have the following tools to prevent "flying blind"
- Viscosity tester of some sort
- Diesel Fuel Hydrometer ( Scale of 0.82 - 0.90) for comparing diesel to the finished product

Has anyone made viscosity tester that they could share with us.?

veggie