I might as well just fess up right now, I'm the person who just bought the 12HP Witte on ebay a couple of days ago. I have been looking into finding a decent one for a couple of years. Most of the ones I have looked into had a problem of some sort or were missing parts and needed work.
The complete history is known on the one I just bought, it has spent its entire life in central Indiana. I bought it because its close and I can pick it up and not have any shipping to pay. Its about a 5 hour drive to pick it up. I have made arrangements with the seller for storage until I have time to pick it up.
According to the serial number this engine was built in 1942, information on the Witte can be found at www.popengines.com
It has been overhauled by a proffesional diesel mechanic like Bob g over twenty years ago. It has been used very little since and has been in storage for over ten years. All the work and expense has already been done on this engine.
flywheel
Aloha flywheel,
Knowing a girl's history always leads to a nicer date. Maybe someone you'd be willing to bring home and introduce to the family. ;D
I'm crating mine up almost as I write. $600 from port (Seattle - Tacoma) to port (Kailua-Kona). Much better than the $1050 I was quoted this spring. And I got her started all by myself this September. It's amazing what 20 degrees ambient does for the attitude of a diesel. And keeping it below 1000 RPM sure smoothed stuff out. I say "she" with a grin as once you see one of these units, I do mean units in the Biblical tense, you know they be male and those large flywheels sure look like well you know what they resemble driving that piston in & out and in & out. Uppy-downie may be great for our Anglophile brothers and sisters but Made in the USA has a certain warmth about it as well. I'll stop before this becomes a total dime novel.
Welcome to the club. Please keep us posted. I'll post a couple of photos tonight of the crate as it grows up and around my BD.
Casey
Casey, Thanks for posting the ebay link on the Witte. After spending nearly a hour on the phone with the owner and his son finding out everything I could about it I figured if I wanted it I better just snatch it up before someone else does. It was not on ebay very long.
flywheel
I dropped the Witte off at the shipper Friday. A really nice experience so far. I pay for the shipping when I pick it up. That should be in about three weeks.
Casey
After nearly 15 hours and 580 miles the Witte Dieseelectric is home. I made the trip to central Indiana to pick it up today. It is MUCH larger and HEAVIER than I thought it would be.
We had a difficult time getting it loaded with only a chainfall on a beam trolly. The bed on my 150 Ford is 6 1/2 long and the Witte takes up the whole length of the bed. One end is against the cab and the other end against the tailgate liner which I had to force shut.
After getting it home and looking it over I measured the flywheels, they are about 3 X 28 inches. The generator head is also very LARGE and HEAVY and also has a weight attached to the shaft.
It may take a day or two get it unloaded, I may post a pix or two tomorrow of it still in my truck.
I will be the third owner of this engine since it was new. I have the complete history from the 80 plus year old gentleman I bought it from. He obtained it from the original owner in the mid 80's.
flywheel
Congratulations!
I'm sure you know you just did 580 miles with better than a ton in your F150. I think that speaks pretty highly of FoMoCo. You nerves must be about as fried as they can get. I'm prescribing two aspirins, two hot toddies, 20 minutes in a hot tub and a friendly bed for at least eight hours.
My Witte BD arrived Thursday and I picked it up Monday. I had crammed another 1800 pounds of crap and a couple hundred pounds of crate onto the Witte so it was grossing 3360 when it landed in Kailua-Kona. The BD weighs in around 1200 pounds when you count the generator, cast iron mounting frame with 10 quart oil sump and then the engine him self. My wonderful trailer waited patiently while I transferred all the really important crap from the crate and some of the crate as well to my tow vehicle. The folk-lift drivers were pretty concerned when they saw that 3300 pound box setting on a 2000 lb axle utility trailer. "You're not really going to .....?" 26 miles home on 45 MPH roads is almost fun when compared to 580 miles interstate.
The next adventure, like yours, is to dismount the power plant from its ride. I'm thinking inclined plane and rollers. The trailer is a tilt-bed and should work pretty nice. I'll work with it on the carport for a year or two until the power house is constructed.
I'll be looking for your photos and some smoke.
Casey
Ain't gonna be no inclined plane and rollers here, I will have a hoe or endloader come out and unload it off the truck. I did stop several times along the way home to check how warm the tires were, and yes they were warm. 580 miles was the round trip and that is enough for one day!
I also got a freebee diesel engine along with the Witte, its a Faryman air cooled about 8 -10 hp. The gent said he didn't like it cuz it was made in Germany and was all metric. He said he never did try to start it but it sure does have a lot of compression. He said he would just give it to me if I wanted it, I said I would take it. Probably added another 125 pounds or more to the load.
flywheel
Yes I think my Ford 150 is overloaded, glad its got the towing package. Unless you see one of these 12hp wittes in person you will not realize how big and heavy they are. The witte takes up all of the 6 1/2 foot length of the bed.
Here are a few pix of it still in the truck.
flywheel
More pix
Hi flywheel,
What can I say? Yours is bigger than mine.
Is that motor on top of the generator being used as a starter?
Casey
What is the thing up on top of the generator? Looks like an OLD brush start induction motor?
Ron
It appears to be an excitation generator. lots of old gensets had a small generator to excite the main generator windings.
Scott R.
That thingie on top of the head is a exciter, I don't believe its a stock item. The fella I bought it from said the generator does work but I'm kinda doubtful. Perhaps there was some other type of exciter on this genset. There are wires going from the exciter to the inside of the large head.
flywheel
I have the Witte unloaded and inside the garage. My ford truck is probably smiling with all that weight off, it sure did steer funny on the trip home.
I took the easy way out and had a friend unload it with a hoe, his comment was that sob sure is heavy.
The original exciter probably was attached to the end of the gen head and failed for whatever reason.
I'm not certain what I will do with the generator end just yet, it may even work but I have my doubts by looking things over. The head and engine have been in storage for a long time, the head will have to come apart for cleaning of acorns and walnut shells. There is no way to clean it out without taking the head apart. Has some frayed wiring, and one wire inside that is hooked to nothing, probably from the exciter modification.
The other option is to just install a different head which I already have.
I have all winter to decide.
flywheel
Hi Flyweel
How is that big Witte doing ?I also have a Witte 15 HP Gas or was set up for Propane
Model c15rc bore 6 stroke 8 ser # 43528
Have not taken any time for this engine
It is gas and I am in to Diesel right now
See you have a Benz is it running WVO
My son is planing a move to hawaii from Phoenix
Is their a need for or are people looking for Lister Witte Engines? Wold like to get him set up useing Oil for his power in Hawaii
Jeff
Quote from: slowspeed on October 29, 2010, 09:06:47 AM
Hi Flyweel
How is that big Witte doing ?I also have a Witte 15 HP Gas or was set up for Propane
Model c15rc bore 6 stroke 8 ser # 43528
Have not taken any time for this engine
It is gas and I am in to Diesel right now
See you have a Benz is it running WVO
My son is planing a move to hawaii from Phoenix
Is their a need for or are people looking for Lister Witte Engines? Wold like to get him set up useing Oil for his power in Hawaii
Jeff
The Benz is not set up for WVO but can be if needed, I just use diesel fuel.
People are always looking for Witte and Lister engines, they are two different brands. The listers were made in England and the Witte engines were made in the USA.
flywheel
Today I finally had the time to have a look INSIDE the model MD witte engine. This engine has been in storage for over 20 years. It was also partially rebuilt about 25 years ago and has very little use since then. That is why I bought this engine, it saves a lot of time and a lot of cash.
I decided it would be best to check inside the crankcase to see if I would see anything that might not be right.
This engine has a pinkish color to it from body filler dust, the owners son worked on restoring muscle cars inside the building where this engine was stored.
Crankcase access is on the top of the crankcase thru a oval shaped cover. The crankcase vent and baffles are also attached to this cover. This is also the oil fill opening.
First thing I noticed was the interior of the engine was coated with a orange sealer like glyptal. Everything is massive inside this engine, built like a tank.
flywheel
Bottom of crankshaft counter weights
i like it!!!
a lot!
now that is an engine, looks very well built in there
the crank has tapered roller brg mains?
what a brute
bob g
I have a manual on a CD ordered for the Witte model MD engine but it has not arrived yet. The Witte engine is very easy to work on.
I will first check the rod bearing clearance with plastigage and the condition of the rod journal. This engine was made in 1942. At 68 years old there will certainly be wear to engine components.
The Witte does have Timkin roller bearing on both sides, they came new with Timkin bearings.
flywheel
Hi flywheel,
I'm really glad someone is doing it the right way. I've decided to hook the juice up and pray. In my next life I will be organized and professional. As you know, my BD is physically about 40% lighter in many ways although it's also close to 6 feet long. It's really nice to see what it would look like if I were to pop the lid off and do all the stuff you're doing.
Keep up the good work and photos.
Casey
I have never owned a Witte engine before I bought this one so I'm in the learning stage. I'm impressed with the quality and engineering that went into the Witte engines.
Today I noticed that the crankcase block is also stamped with the same serial number as the engine identification tag. If the id tag is missing from a similar type engine the serial number can be found stamped on the upper crankcase block under the access cover where the gasket is installed. The gasket would have to be removed to see the serial number.
Here are some pix of the old rod bearings that were removed from my Witte engine sometime in the mid to late 80's by the mechanic that partially rebuilt this engine. The old gent I bought this engine from still had them sitting on the shelf in the shed when I picked the engine up.
It appears they are made of bronze with a babbit lining, it would seem to me that if the babbit ever wore through there would bronze contact with the crankshaft journal. I believe this would be much better than steel backing which would score the crankshaft.
After 45 years of use I would say they held up pretty well, they look rough but there is no bronze showing through the babbit.
One of the bearings is marked on the back with F. M. MD 126 - D, FM could mean Federal Mogul, MD is the model number of this engine and I don't know what the 126 - D is. It could be Witte's part number.
flywheel
I'd day the lower end is in fairly good shape from the bearings.
Can you tell us how wide those bearing surfaces are and what od the crank is. That looks real wide and made to run on a fat throw. Sweet. I'd love to find an older engine like your Witt, you lucky dog.
RS
A quick measurement with a small rule shows the crank od to be just under 3", the bearing width is also just under 3" wide.
flywheel
Flywheel,
It is great to see there is someone else who joins the Witte engine team. That's a very durable engine you have there. Those bearings need replacing, and you might have to pour your own bearings, because there are no factory bearings left in the country, that I know of.
All the babbitting supplies you need are here at Hit & Miss. We have Babbitt, Damtite (damming compound), flux, and even a pamphlet on how to pour babbitt.
Click here http://www.hitnmiss.com/24.html#babbitt to go to our on-line catalog and check out our babbitting supplies as well as our new and reproduction parts.
As always, if you don't see what you are looking for give us a call, we may have other items that are not listed.
Hit & Miss Enterprises
Orwell, Ohio
(440)272-5335
I'm just taking my time with my engine, I done an exstensive overhaul and even calculated a projected flat torque curve, to be emphasized between 350 RPM to 450 RPM then reground the cam to my specs to maximize lowend torque. I changed my design a few times. Now I'm operating my engine at 360 RPM and 440 RPM only. I done so many upgrades, totally new oiling system, new fuel system, etc. as well as replacing every single component that was subjected to wear.
When I'm done it will be as "new" throughout and "Specially Designed" for low speed operation only, by not just turning down the governor and calling it low speed. I'll mention all my upgrades when I post my you tube video of the fully operating powerplant.
Good luck with you project and if you need help with anything let me know,
Diesel Guy
Diesel Guy
Thanks for posting that information on supplies for old engines. Perhaps Admin. will add that to the parts and or supplies section.
The bearings shown in my post are the bearings that were removed about 25 years ago, the owner had saved them and he gave them to me when I picked this engine up a week or so ago.
I will be posting more pix of the bearings that are installed in this engine now. They were installed about 25 years ago. They look different than the original bearings, they are made of what appears to some kind of aluminum or babbitt. They are insert type, not a poured bearing. Maybe you will reccognize the style bearing I have in my engine.
Can you post a few pix of your Witte project, I'm sure others would love to have a look? AW come on, you can do it. please?
flywheel
Flywheel,
I been at a standstill until my camshaft was finished. Here is before and after pictures. I'm busy all week on other projects, but will start again Sunday night.
Stock camshaft
Modified camshaft
Note the extra narrower cam lobe?
The modified camshaft features, a calculated high lift, ultra short duration, minimum valve overlap and a delayed exhaust valve opening, timing. By delaying the opening of the exhaust valve, increases the "effective power stoke" and burn time. This configuration enhances the thermodynamic efficiency at extreme low RPM, by allowing the expanding gasses to push "longer" on the piston before exhaust valve opening, on "every" power stroke. When a camshaft opens the exhaust valve early (high speed capability, grind), it releases a small amount of usable heat energy, right out the exhaust valve, at low speeds, therefore lowers the Brake Mean Effective Pressure. This modified cam grind also, lowers the heat loading, to the cylinder head, under full load. The downside of this grind (in camshafts there is always have a give and take) the engine loses it's stock high speed capability (800+ RPM) and runs out of steam anything over 500 RPM. But when operating below that figure, the engine will produce much higher Brake Mean Effective Pressure, at peak torque, which in turn, is capable of producing much tighter AC frequency regulation, than the stock camshaft, in the 360 RPM and 440 RPM modes. Due to, it is more difficult to slow an engine down with a load when it's operating on it's peak torque curve. The fuel consumption rate will be minimal, with this engine, when completed.
Diesel Guy
Here is a few more pics, I still have a ways to go before finished, now that I have the camshaft back, I can finish installing the other flywheel and then start putting it together.
Diesel Guy
Diesel Guy
Thats a very interesting mod you are doing to your cam, can you post a side view pix of the cam? What year and model is your Witte engine, I see it has spoked flywheels.
Maybe there are more Witte owners in the background just watching, sure are a lot of views for this topic for no longer than its been on.
flywheel
pix of disassembly of rod bearing, notice the stack of shims on the rod. There five shims on each side, one very thick shim, one medium thick and three very thin shims. The total thickness of the five shims is about 1/8 inch.
There are also chisel punch marks on the rod cap from someone who has previously worked on this engine.
Oil dipper is attached to the lower side of the rod bearing cap.
flywheel
Flywheel,
My engine is a 1951 CD Diesel Electric model, with extra heavy flywheels, I rebuilt it at another site on the property but had to bring it inside, not finished due to Winter coming, snow Saturday. Now I will finish the rebuild it indoors.
Here are a few pics.
Notice how much larger the Witte flywheel is compared to the 23.5" heavy flywheeled 14/1.
Each Witte flywheel, weighs over three times the mass of the 14/1 flywheel.
Here is some side views of the camshaft before I sent it out.
Also, I took this picture of the piston and connecting rod this past Summer.
Diesel Guy
flywheel
it looks like you got yourself a winner there, what a beast
too bad there are more of them around, and a parts source for them.
however it looks like if you get it built back up again, you really probably will never need parts for it.
gotta love that old american iron, they sure didn't scrimp on cast iron back in the day, did they?
when i was a kid the farm that dad worked for at the time had a rather large, (huge to a 6yo) oil engine
it had a plug that you pulled out and from what i am told a large wick affair was installed, lit and allowed to
smoulder, that was then installed and the thing was used to get it started.
the flywheels i am told now by dad were about 5 ft above the floor and they ran down in a trough so were likely over 6ft
in diameter, that is quite large by my estimation, much larger than i would want to mess with.
that engine was sold some years ago after sitting unused for decades, some engine group bough it and took it to gossel
kansas where they remounted it and got it running again for shows. one day i hope to get back and see it running as i never
saw it running as a kid.
from what i am told it was used to power a stationary thresher back in the day
i have no idea of the hp, maybe 35 or so?
you guys and these witte engine's remind me of that big old hunk of iron that so fascinated me as a kid, i remember looking that
big old girl over many times, but never climbed around on it because it was covered in oil/grease and a layer of dust.
i guess the last time i saw it was nearly 50 years ago now, and it was an antique then, so maybe it was 50yo then?
bob g
Diesel Guy
You are going to have a very nice engine when its done, be sure to keep us updated, thanks for posting the pix.
The model MD and the CD appear to use the same piston and rod by looking at your pix. I also see your rod has MD and a number cast into it.
Yours is radiator cooled and mine is tank cooled although a radiator and fan can be added.
I realise you would like to have yours completed soon but you are short on time and winter is coming, the snow will be blowing, the iron will be cold on the fingers etc. I can just come over and pick it up, just think - no more shop clutter, lots of extra room. It may only be a 8 hour drive or so for me, my Witte will have company.
flywheel
Flywheel,
Thanks for the kind words about my engine.
"I realise you would like to have yours completed soon but you are short on time and winter is coming, the snow will be blowing, the iron will be cold on the fingers etc. I can just come over and pick it up, just think - no more shop clutter, lots of extra room. It may only be a 8 hour drive or so for me, my Witte will have company."
We must be on the same wave length, I was going to ask you the same thing!
Witte's are just big, ugly and heavy, so call me first, if you want to get rid of it.
Diesel Guy
The little do-dad Witte calls the oil splasher, the Witte also has a oil pump.
flywheel
Flywheel,
Funny you mention the oil lube splasher. Mine is shape a little different, instead of a steel wire, it is a small flat piece of steel.
My unit will be running at manly at 360 RPM, so I'm using two oil splashers one in front of the other and fanning them out a little, one on each side, slightly off the centerline of the bottom, where the one oil splasher would be. This makes a wider edge against the oil, to scoop more oil and fling it around each side of the engines internals.
When using two splashers, it enables full adjustability, from narrow (the same as one splasher, one directly in front of the other) to wide (two splashers, just the edges overlap and makes a wider scoop).
Now I can fine tune the splash oil lubrication, part of the system and find just the right amount of splash, to properly lubricate the internals, but without overlubing and causing oil slobber and increased oil consumption.
Diesel Guy