incredible cogen story

[mobile_bob]

talk about running forever!

http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/distgen/AppGuide/CaseStudies/CS_Waukesha_Laclede.htm

bob g

[rl71459]

Thanks Bob

That is amazing!

Rob

[d34]

yes that is amazing... and its only 120 miles from me... wonder if they do personal tours?   

[Chris]

Very interesting read. I need to do some research because as I recall, The Nassau Beach Holel in Nassau, Bahamas generated their own power at one time and I think it was a co-gen installation. The hotel was at one time owned by a Canadian familly, Crothers, that had the Catapillar dealership for parts of Canada, the Bahamas and parts of the Caribbean. I will see what I can find out and get back to the board.

Chris

[Crumpite]

I wonder how much this incredible lifetime is related to the fuel being used. I have always heard that the motor oil out of a natural gas/propane engine comes out pretty much as clean as it went in.
It is also curious that they do not offer diesel as a fuel option.
It has also got me curious about well service engines running on gas - I always thought it's because it's there and abundant but maybe it has something to do with engine life with natural gas.

Why pay for other fuel when you're pumping one of the best ones available already?

I have a friend who has replaced quite a few of the wellhead engines, and it I hear it really depends on how clean the gas is from the well.
Up in northern Michigan, the gas is slightly radioactive, and they tend to use short lifetime engines and then just throw them into a boneyard to rust and decay back to normal.

I know it's typical for large industry's to pipe untreated (or minimally treated) wellhead gas for heat and power.
The place I used to work for had it's own gas field and pipeline to reduce costs (it was a chemical plant)
It's pretty much the lowest cost per BTU available if you own the well.

I can also testify that lift trucks that run on propane have nasty, dirty smelly oil that seems worse than stuff in gas engines.

The article mentioned excellent preventative maintenance for the longevity - I can also testify to that !
The first thing bean counters want to eliminate is preventative maintenance - the lack thereof doesn't show up until years down the road.
They'll have retired or moved on by then ! 
It shows very good management in that place !!!

Crumpite

[rcavictim]

I can also testify that lift trucks that run on propane have nasty, dirty smelly oil that seems worse than stuff in gas engines.

Crumpite

My experience with automobile engines run on propane is that the crankcase oil remains much cleaner longer than the same engine run on gasoline.

[Diesel Guy]

 
Those Waukesha 4 stroke 800 RPM - 1,800 RPM engines are very durable. When I'm done with my Witte project (about August 1st), I am purchasing (at a very good price) a small Ajax WL-15 - 5 x 6.5, that needs to be rebuilt. The person has it and it is in very original condition, I would like to use it on my wood gas project me and my son will be doing this Fall.

Just as the Witte is an "extremely" well made, over built engine in the diesel fuel category, the Ajax is also in a league of its own, in the gas engines. It's really hard to beat a two - cycle, "bulkhead" engine. Designed to operate efficiently from 200 RPM - 650 RPM for decades.  Two-cycle design eliminates troublesome valves, rocker arms, tappets, push rods and cams.

Producing a power stroke every revolution, slow speed, extremely low Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) and port scavenging. Superior due to simplicity. That's just my opinion.

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/terrace/ae198/ajax_UK_refs.html#anchor1161044

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/terrace/ae198/ajaxintro.html

Diesel Guy

[mobile_bob]

everything is a compromise, and this is no different

if you want an engine to run forever (or nearly so) it will  likely be built big and heavy
and will be made of the best materials and use the best processes to make those materials as wear resistant as possible
you will then need to keep very clean oil (full flow and bypass at a minimum) very clean air (primary and secondary filters)
and a very clean fuel that is either gaseous to start with (as in natural gas) or very finely atomized (like an injection system capable
of 20kpsi plus) that is also very very clean (primary and secondary filters, centrifuge polishers etc) and

the use of an ebullient cooling system which will allow for very stable thermal conditions, the engine will likely need to run under a continuous
basis, and have an incredibly good maintenance program in place along with a dedicated person to stay on top of it.

the engines in the article also probably never run at part load, likely they spend most of their time at near rated load or at which point max efficiency is proven to be.

all that does not come cheap

those same engine's running pump diesel ( i know they are not diesel engines, but waukesha built comparable diesels when those engines were
born) would likely not have made have the lifespan, simply because the fuel is no where near as clean as natural gas, or as finely atomized.
forget about veggie oils, those engines would have been dead in a quarter of the time, even with incredible care.

bottom line, in my opinion i don't think we can ever get there, but

there is so much info to be gleaned from that article, the fact that engine/generators built and put into service 40 years ago, are still in operation
and can produce electrical power for less than grid power?  incredible in my opinion

the fact that they are on the 3 floor, and those folks working on the 2nd floor are unaware of their existence?  way beyond incredible, talk about
vibration isolation!

just a lot of detail, and yes i would love to take a tour of that 3rd floor!

bob g

[Crumpite]

Absolutely no doubt, the engineering was of the very finest quality.

Although, I did notice that the head guy started out there on a six month stint to repair the defective controls system... 

Crumpite

[Diesel Guy]

 

Bob,

Your exactly right about the extra clean air-oil and fuel. That is why I'm using  triple (I bought a large unit that holds three filters, they don't sell it any more) one micron fuel filters with a Racor 2 micron filter/water separator for my fuel.


http://www.wefilterit.com/cart/

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RACOR-120AS-2-Micron-Diesel-Spin-On-Filter-Separators-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3ca9ec8888QQitemZ260548888712QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear

And a:

I just bought this for my full flow needs. Coming any day now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Take-Off-Caterpillar-Engine-Oil-Filter-Group-/130388323031?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item1e5bbfead7


And a:

http://www.puradyn.com/products/specs.html

PFT-60 model bypass system with the Extended life filter with additives.

My air cleaner is a CENTRI Air Precleaner, EX-20

http://www.centriprecleaner.com/


with a heavy duty truck air cleaner.


I'm installing a:

http://www.murcal.com/Catalog/Level-Maintainers-Lube/LM2000-Lube-Level-Maintainer

And a two gallon reserve tank to keep my oil level full at all times. This is for my over hauled Witte diesel. When you pay a lot to rebuild, spending a little extra is worth it. Plus I can go ¼ of a year (Spring - Summer - Fall and Winter) between oil changes, operating 24/7 if I want and there is no need to shut down, then adjust the valves and I'm running again for another season.

I'm setting up a camera system to watch my gauges and engine room, so when I'm not home I can punch in from my Blackberry and see the entire system. And when I'm home I don't need to go outside to the engine room to monitor the system. As you can tell I don't like baby sitting engines, like I had to do with my Listeroids, it's fun for a while, but gets old quick.

Diesel guy

[AdeV]

Does anyone have any more info on this "Ebullient cooling" system, which seems to generate steam @ 10psi? I can see that being incredibly useful, but google returns almost nothing beyond the article linked by Bob & a related article - which is similarly brief about the system.

Maybe this is an angle for SOMRAD to look into?

[mobile_bob]

i for one am looking into it

from what i have come up with so far, not all engine are designed to handle it
some need positive flow to guarantee coolant to specific area's, such as in the cylinder head, but
all of those that cannot be ebullient cooled have water pumps, so

one might conclude that the lister types and changfa type engine might well be able to be ebullient cooled.

for instance one of our board members "apogee" i believe (and i a might be wrong, it may be another) has an early
example of a 195 chinese engine, with a radiator and fan mounted directly on top of the engine case, it has no pump
and is what i believe to be an ebullient cooled system.

by accident i ran my s195 as an ebulliently cooled engine about a month or so back, because it is a breadboarded setup
i forgot to power up the water pump and after a while at 7kwatt load it was making steam very well and the system
which has a 7lb cap was running at near 250 degree's F, and the steam was exiting the tstat housing at just over 260 deg F.

i thought for sure i would lose another head gskt, but there was no such problem
of note the engine sounded as good as ever, and was burning very clean at the exhaust.

the changfa hopper types are basically 212 deg F ebulliently cooled engines, the phase change is what releases the heat
a closed and pressurizes system allows for higher temperatures of course.

i am tempted to do more testing, but i really need to finish the assembly and get the unit in operable condition before i move on
and take on more test projects.

bob g

[Diesel Guy]

Jens,

Here is one of the most bulletproof diesel engines out there. It is a type CM Diese,l which has a diesel head. It would need to be rebuilt, they still make all the parts needed to rebuild. Here is a 2010 gas version model from the 10" stroke family.

Many parts are interchangeable. These engines were "designed" from the ground up, for 24/7/365 operation for decades, with minimum down time. It cost about the same once rebuilt, as a good quality diesel engine today, but these are "real" engines. Not throwaways.

http://www.powerzoneequipment.com/inventory_item.asp?StockNo=51582&Description=Ajax+7+1/2x10+Diesel+Engine


http://www.c-a-m.com/images/File/AJAX_E-565_broc-vf.pdf

I will be doing a rebuild on a smaller WL-15 model this Fall and will update you on my progress.

Just giving you another option.
Diesel guy

[elnav]

Consumer Gas head office in Toronto did the same thing. I worked there back in 1972  as a  calibration  meter service tech. When power went out in nearby areas The Consumer Gas building always drew attention because the whole building was still lit up, and heated or cooled.
Consumer Gas was the biggest natural cas supplier in Ontario but I think they were bought out  in recent years. I wonder how many other such examples  are hidden  away?