The new Tiny House movement has brought about many variations in heating and powering of small homes.
Micro versions of what is used in larger homes.
Of interest to me are the micro versions of wood stoves that can heat a place in a very simple manner.
May of these are derivatives of marine versions which can heat boats.
Dickinson Wood Stove
http://www.go2marine.com/product/20010F/dickinson-marine-newport-solid-fuel-heater-00-newsf.html (http://www.go2marine.com/product/20010F/dickinson-marine-newport-solid-fuel-heater-00-newsf.html)
Here is another maker who builds specifically for tiny places...
http://cubicminiwoodstoves.com/ (http://cubicminiwoodstoves.com/)
http://www.livinlightly.com/off-grid-heat-small-wood-stoves/ (http://www.livinlightly.com/off-grid-heat-small-wood-stoves/)
The Tiny home community is helping to revive the interest in a lot of Marine products. Products which lend themselves quite well to the Tiny House requirements.
very interesting to watch,
Veggie
hey thanks for the links, dang those are cute!
looks like if one live around a source of old pallets or other scrap, a small generator
and a skilsaw could put up alot of fuel for one of these little guys.
i like em a lot!
bob g
You want thermal mass, like a Masonry Heater, perhaps the smallest is the Vermont Bun Baker
http://vermontwoodstove.com/
Not a rocket stove with a steel drum radiator.
Here's my bucket of cooling water. Please do some research about respiratory problems associated with wood heated habitats before falling too much in love with one of these little buggers.
My attention is still stolen by views of the Petite Godan from France. https://www.google.com/search?q=Petit+Godin&sa=X&biw=853&bih=419&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0ahUKEwjNpsmQn7XPAhUB7GMKHZoaBUMQsAQIIw (https://www.google.com/search?q=Petit+Godin&sa=X&biw=853&bih=419&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0ahUKEwjNpsmQn7XPAhUB7GMKHZoaBUMQsAQIIw)
Casey
because of their thermal mass and heat storage, masonry heaters are fired at full draft for the entire 2hr burn. Very little emissions, on par with the best pellet stoves, and carbon neutral.
http://www.homepower.com/articles/home-efficiency/equipment-products/efficient-heating-wood?v=print
masonry heaters listed last
http://www.mha-net.org MASONRY HEATING ASSO.
I ran into one of these "Russian Fireplace" units on Hood Canal in Washington State, USA. What a mind opener. It was about 6:00 PM and the house I stepped into was a very warm 70-something degrees inside while it was a brisk 50-something windy day out of doors. The gentleman owning the system was nearly 90 and had the system constructed about 20 years past. He had a some rules:
1.) Always, Always use quality dry wood.
2.) Burn, baby burn.
Yup, thems the rules. If it was too warm he simply opened two windows. I felt the brick and it was just nicely warm. He build a robust fire every morning and keep it going for about two hours. There was a magic dial on the wall for "Just In Case" situations and Carl was sure he could find the directions for operating the baseboard heat. One of the important side effects of this system is that the full on burn is cleaner than the smoldering fires that are now associated with wood stoves. Before you set your keyboards on fire with the friction of flying keys; Yes, the gas burns escape the problem but it's the getting there and the last third of the fuel that just isn't operating at these hyper burn temperatures. I'm still open to the art of wood stoves and completely understand ceremonial fires but heating houses with fires in mostly steel boxes has some challenges.
Casey
i have studied the russian fireplace design for longer than i care to admit
going back to the mid 70's
and i have always been fascinated by the design, and particularly the operation.
bob g
Well I am gonna have to agree with Casey's assessment of "heating houses with fires in mostly steel boxes". I have done so for the last 33 years and I do have to agree on dirt, dust, ashes, respiratory ailments, dry skin and eyes etc. etc. etc. And my furnace was out in the garage with hot air ducted into the living quarters. I had a regular thermostat on the wall, and the temp would stay within 1 degree of the set temp as long as I remembered to feed the darn thing. And it ate MASSIVE amounts of wood!
But I do so love a wood fire!
Now I have a new electric heat pump and a set of gas propane logs with a ventless infrared propane wall heater for power outages. I do still have a plan for wood heat with a TARM woodboiler that will be located in another woodshed/generator house away from the main house. I still have the S1100 Zing Dong/ST setup The Great Walla Walla Zing Dong, another factory built S1115 Changfoid/ST set up and the 'Roid with a 7.5kw ST head. So many choices, so little time.
Ron.
I've had forced air heat, iron wood burner stove, and our new house has a Masonry heater (Russian heater, Finnish heater, Kachelofen, contra-flow) we'd designed and had built when the house was built. 24" slab under the heater to take it's weight. I wouldn't trade it for anything (well, with reason)
We'd put hydronic coils in the slab, but never hooked them up.
Today, we started the first of the warm-up fires, we expect it to be cool and rainy Sunday. It takes several small burns to gradually warm the heater up at the beginning of the heating season, but then, it's let 'er rip for the daily 2 hr burn. The quality of the heat is amazing, and we've had no humidity issues, we were afraid of not being able to warm up above dew point, but it was totally unfounded. It just sits there, radiating long wave IR. I haul ashes out about every three weeks, and am working up to a 3 year chimney cleaning schedule. ( 1 year was nothing, sweep didn't believe we used the heater, 2 year interval got some gunk out, no creosote. Heater runs so hot internally, no creosote buildup, so next cleaning in 3 years)
But the catch is, build the heater first, then the house around it.
We have a 2200sf, 2 story house, the first floor is pretty open, so the long wave IR can heat everything. But it's so awesome.
Another one here for wood fires. Nothing heats my massive 2 storey house as quickly as the old Kent 22 kw wood-burning space-heater. I never turn it down and don't burn wet or damp wood. If the house is getting too hot I let the fire burn low and only put the occasional bit of wood on to just keep it going "But" never damp it back! I doubt very much the neighbours can tell if my fire is going or not as there is only a clear shimmering above the flue (which I never have to clean out due to extreme combustion temps). I only wish my neighbours were as considerate though - I can understand the angst of those living with smoky fires close-by. A large number of bus/motorhome people in NZ use either a "Sparky" or "Wagner" tiny wood-burner for heating due to the free supply of wood as they go on their travels. Down side is the odd one uses coal which literally get right up your nose.
Tiny house and wood heat......Been there, done that. For about 10 years, we lived in a 12' X 16' self built cabin.....this before the days of solar panels, inverters, LEDs, etc. We had a used kerosene for lighting and small wood stove for heat.
The first wood stove was one of those oval sheet metal stoves for hunting camps, etc. Nearly killed us. Wet wood caused the bottom to rot out in the second winter while there was a fire in the stove......you can imagine the excitement. Fortunately happened when we were there and awake!
A proper small steel wood burner was quickly borrowed from a friend. It was still in use when we sold the place.
IMHO, There were three major problems in using a wood stove to heat a tiny home (we didn't call them that then):
1) Because of clearances to non-combustibles, the wood stove needs a large space relative to the space available in a very small living space.
2) The small wood stoves tend to have more than necessary heat output, so it was frequently too hot in the cabin.
3) Because of the small firebox, it was hard to keep a fire going for a long period of time (like overnight)
I think a properly vented propane heater is best. Electric is also good, though with a power outage, it can get cold in a hurry. I used an oil heater in my boat for many years, one of those simple drip feed burners. It was OK, but the occasional downdraught could get things dirty in a hurry!
We are still living in the same area in the PNW, properly off-grid now with the solar panels, good sized battery bank, inverter, and a Listeroid driving a PMG to charge batteries on those sunless days. We still heat with wood and also use the wood stove to provide domestic hot water for about 5 months of the year.
I love using wood heat, and yes, it is a bit less clean than propane, electric, etc. Nothing like a full wood shed and root cellar. Better than money in the bank.
Cheers,
Hugh
Thumbs up for thermal mass. ;D
We do it kinda by accident with a Jotel steel box insert in a huge masonry fireplace. Sure beats getting up in the middle of the night to feed a fire. When we need a quick warm up there is an old pot belly in the living room too. We have an outdoor wood boiler that we moved from the old place but I think its going up for sale. We will see after one more season on the Jotel, I do like the ODB concept other than being locked in to running it and it does consume a good bit of wood.
We put the thermal mass in the concrete slab of the house, that's a concrete floor above a full basement with a insulated concrete floor too. With our Lopi Liberty stove we can typically just make a good hot fire in the evening.
this has turned out to be good stuff guys!
i too am a big proponent of thermal mass, however having little experience with its use
it is sure very much something to think about when faced with so many of you guys and real world
experience.
nothing beats real world experience.
theory and math all good, but having examples of folks in various parts of the world
using various methods gives a much better understanding
thanks all and keep it coming
bob g
Link to half-dozen photos of the install of our masonry heater
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.383468711726588.86888.120212794718849&type=1&l=c762d10b5f
should be public viewable. The core is from Tempcast (Canada)
Beautiful heater Mike. Question, how are the labyrinth passages cleaned when the eventually fill up with soot? And is that a bread oven in the back?
Dang Mike, that thing is gorgeous! i love it!
thanks for posting the link.
i too have questions about cleaning out the labyrinth passages, from reading the fire is small and very hot
so that there really is no creosote issues? just some ash that is removed via small cleanout ports?
thanks
bob g
yes, it's got a bake oven in the back, and just above that, is a SS water loop, that thermosiphons to a 120gal SS tank on the 2nd floor. That, in the winter, gives me about 80 - 100°F preheated water to the tankless water heater. (summer time, it's preheated by a rooftop solar heater, gets up to 140F, and mixed down to 110F)
I added a pic of the schematic to the heater picture album, I'll try to put the image here too { FB fails to allow a single, simple photo link but it is clickable }
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpermalink.php%3Fstory_fbid%3D1213410365399081%26id%3D120212794718849%26substory_index%3D0&width=500
There is a cleanout plug in the base of the ash pit. which gives access to vacuuming soot out. Most of the heavy soot, settles in the oven chamber, and what gets past that is so light, it gets blown around and settles at the base of the final triple wall, 8" flue that goes out the roof. There is a 2nd cleanout port at the exterior (small black door at floor level) that has a 2nd, insulated hatch, that leads to the base of the flue, which gives access to the rest of the passages. It's mostly just an annual 1 hour vacuum job, I put a HEPA filter on the shop vac, use a 25' pool cleaner vacuum hose and run it around and brush out stuff. (this is weeks after the last fire)
When both draft doors are open, AND the exterior air feed is active, the heater interior refractory is nearly glowing from the heat, and almost sounds like a blast furnace for about 45 minutes, I assume that carries a lot of the fine ash up and out to fall elsewhere.
<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpermalink.php%3Fstory_fbid%3D1213410365399081%26id%3D120212794718849%26substory_index%3D0&width=500" width="500" height="497" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true"></iframe>
Link to half-dozen photos of the install of our masonry heater:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.383468711726588.86888.120212794718849&type=1&l=c762d10b5f
Quote from: LowGear on September 29, 2016, 12:51:21 PM
Here's my bucket of cooling water. Please do some research about respiratory problems associated with wood heated habitats .......
So the new style is called Top Down Burn (google it)
paper on top of the logs, and a handful of kindling on top of that
I usually build this in between 2 logs, kindling burns and radiant heats the
logs which often start burning before the kindling collapses in-between the logs
and really gets them going. No smoky starts and when you are down to the end, the
glowing coals are not smoking.
For the main burn, it's so hot the soot burns of the white refractory liner:
(https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/qi/0xzg3dgkflvc.png)
Wonderful warming-heart picture Mike.
Many asking me, will not believe when I tell them that I get at least 40% of the in-house heat from the charcoal radiant glow out the glass front doors.
That heat that you can feel across the room from 15 feet away. The energy release that heat things, not just the air.
I keep my HOT, coals glowing too. I do continous burns when I am home and grump some when I have to add raw wood in 2-3 new splits and cover up my charcoal glow. Can't loose too much HOT-heat momentum though to keep firing clean.
Yep. Yep. Keeps the glass fully clean and the refractory brick liners soot free.
IF all of the new wood volatilizes released are flame combusted there will be no creosote build ups. Flash light inspected annual I am still 26' chimney free, not needing brushing after 20 years now. Ha! Father-in-law next door I'd have to top to bottom brush out his chimney at lase twice a season due to soots build-up flow clogging.
After he passed, then burning/operating my way his same SS chimney, cast iron hearth stove went three years just soot free fine.
Renters then had it again all air-choked down, too cool "to save the wood" sooting clogging up again. Old, cast plates warped and NLA it was really children unsafe anymore to annually keep cementing it back up to air-tight. We changed it out for a modern certified jacketed Quadrafire brand insert type. With a protruding three sided all glass panels front.
Same. Same. They would soot up the glass continually with their air-choked down, too-cool "wood saving" smoky fires.
They moved on, and out.
Now I go over twice a day into this the wife's designated guest house and build a small HOT top-down burn fire. All of the 1959 masonry mass lets that thermal-glide for at least 8 hours always keeping that house warmed enough to be sweet smelling, occupy-able ready.
Only takes me 20 pounds of wood a day to do this.
I pester the wife on every snowy day show and tell, able to showing her that if she would ever let me down to the ceiling level this old heat wicking out monolith exchanged for an insulated SS chimney topper we could "quit heating the crows".
Point is 2/3rd of success in ALL "machines" and "processes" is the actual user/operator. Not the core base design. This gets re-proven, time, and time again.
Ha! Ha! Carefully man you will be tagged like me as wooden-headed, old-school, too-conventional, not jumping onto the the latest craze rocket-stove be-all-nots.
So far as using-wood-is-bad criticisms; most those when I've dug are knowingly/unknowingly into power-control-from-the-top-down as always the better suppied energy for personal, "for All".
They have to do this preaching.. They must keep plumping to drive up the results on their retirement accounts investments.
Keep burning hot and clean man, using your own-wood-sweating, keep you moving FREEDOM providing.
J-I-C Steve Unruh
It's always a pleasure to watch a man person operate a machine device properly. Unfortunately you are the exception in this world. I used smaller wood burning boxes myself for years and never had to clean the chimney. My wife finally got concerned after an enlightening TV news show and demanded a "proper" chimney sweep come out and clean the chimney so we didn't burn the house down while we were asleep. $50 roof fee (this was 30 years ago when a $50 bag of groceries was actually pretty heavy) and came down to announce that we should call him back in five years just as a precautionary move. She wanted a second opinion. Actually she still does. Yes! Wood stoves can be used without a great deal of risk if done with knowledge and discipline. And then there are folks that burn houses down with baseboard heat.
Once a community can hear or smell what the neighbors are having for dinner the rules get more complicated and some freedom is lost. Remember that we're broadcasting to a rather select group here at Microcogen.
Casey
If I was going to use wood in a tiny house, I think I would try and incorporate it as a mass floor heater(like a russian heater, just built into the floor). As mentioned woodstoves have space requirements that would eat up a lot of valuable floorspace in a tiny house/cabin. I thnk this is an Asian thing, forget the name though but the fire box(and the mess) is located outside with the hotgas passing thru passageway in a masonary floor with tile on top. have seen something similar used in Roman Baths to provide heated floors. Small downdraft batch gasifier to get it up to temp qucker and a pellet feeder or propane for longer burns to maintain heat for longer durations without needing direct attention. That is one of the cool things about pellets, you can taylor the fire size to suit while still maintaining very clean/complete combustion. I think I would have to do something to make it so I could see the fire though, I like that part also:)
The low mass/light weight alternative would be a small wood or pellet boiler(or gas, or heatpump) feeding a radiant floor water system, but this type would require power to circulate the water, where the masonary type even running on pellets could be done without power. But there are a lot of ways to make hot water:)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_bed-stove for the Asian version
Had a long (long for my setup) 3 hour run today charging batteries, the water tank hit about 180F at the top and the return was about 140F The air blown from the ST head seems to be effective to cool the tank to a stable temp when it's 50F outside. But a couple more days of rain, forecast for sun on Saturday, then I'll fill the water tanks and do laundry
One of the associated links in that link you posted is for the Roman version called a "Hypocaust".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocaust
http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_w4j2tK7VAhUClJQKHRvZDqYQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wagenerstoves.co.nz%2Fsparky-multi-fuel-burners&usg=AFQjCNF4Dq8KqyYx9QWZEAskPhf6MlSQYw
Hi Fellas. A nice little fire which people over here are using for boats, caravans and motorhomes.