New Group and Changes

[admin]

having toiled over this for some time, it looks like this is what is coming down the pipe for our forum

there are two very distinct sub groups in our membership, those that are more focused on power generation
for standby or emergency use, and those that are more focused on combined heat and power.

of the two groups the combined heat and power side generally are more into testing, research and development
and extracting maximum efficiency from the unit, whereas those that are more into backup power are more results
oriented and efficiency, testing and R&D are of lower priority.

thats ok, we should promote both sides, because we can learn from each other.

a while back i was approached to start up a serious Research and Development group or forum, there are those that are apparently
very serious about micro cogeneration and its development but are not keen on getting involved with other aspects or getting mired down
in political discussion etc.  so the question was how best to accomplish this goal of putting together such a group?

there were two choices that came immediately to mind,

one, was to set up a totally seperate forum, that would be very easy to do, but
it would have segmented our group and likely led to hard feelings somewhere and the decline in what we have working here.
so even though it would have been the easiest choice it was not a good one.

two, was to set aside an area within our forum for the combined heat research and development group. the question then becomes
how best to manage the two groups in an effective way so that they might co-exist and be a resource for each other.

it is my firm belief that the DIY group can learn much from EE, ME, Chemical E, Thermal E, Physicists, etc, and i am also convinced
that the professional group can learn a lot from the DIY group that has learned through empirical evidence (school of hard knocks).

so here is how it is going to work

there will be a new section to our forum, this catagory for those not interested can certainly be "minimized" so that the forum will remain looking the same. the overall function of the forum will remain the same for everyone and will remain free to all who want to use it.

the new catagory will be accessible to all, however to participate in that group one will have to join that group, it will also be a "fee" based group. (more on the fee later) The activity and posting done in that group will be accessible as read only to any forum member that is not a member of the research group. If a member wishes to ask a question of that group there will be a single board to address questions to that group.  This is an effort to keep the topics on topic and limit sidebar discussions, tangeants etc.

there are many benefits to both groups for this type of structure, both groups learn from each other, the forum remains free for those that are not interested in joining the group, the section that is fee based will not be as cluttered and will stay on topic, the fee's will provide funding to keep the forum alive (which benefits those that wish not to participate at that level directly), the fee's will also be used to produce a certificate of membership and a card for your wallet, there are also several other benefits that relate to regulations that i cannot go into yet.

the fee rate will be something nominal, and not what most would consider a burden, it will be an annual membership sort of thing.

there will likely also be a means for those who have financial hardships to join the group, my thinking is it will be based on being voted in
based on the quality of the members questions to that group, and other things like background experience.

while i expect there will be many questions, i would ask the membership to take a few moments to think about the prospects, and what there is to gain vs what extra effort it might take to accomplish.

i am not aware of another forum structured in this manner, but then again there is no other forum (that i am aware of) that has the need for this sort of structure (again i can't get into the details of "why" just yet, i need you guys to trust me on this one).  without having a forum structure model to emmulate we are left to develop a model of our own.

at this point i would ask only for a little patience from the membership, any and all support is appreciated, and we shall see if this is something that works out to be as good as we think it should be.

thanks to all that contribute to the success of the forum, you are all much appreciated.

admin

[Apogee]

I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt as requested, but I feel it's a mistake.

If you have ever spent any time on the diyaudio forum, I would submit that it is one of the most robust forums on the web.  What is interesting about it, is the playing field is very level regarding new ideas and projects.  There is no need for artificial boundaries and some of the top circuit designers in the electronics industry contribute regularly to the forum.  I would submit that lowly newbies asking questions often spurs discussion that would otherwise have not been considered by the "experts".  The admin group works very hard ensuring folks stay on topic and deletes posts that don't.

Unfortunately, the concept of "experts" in society only tends to fuel egos and limit discussion.  Further, charging a fee for me to correct or contribute to a discussion that my be off-course or inaccurate is ridiculous in my opinion.

I think the 10,000 post milestone speaks for itself regarding the success of the forum.  Why segment or change a formula that's working?

Just my $.02,

Steve

[Henry W]

Hi Steve,

I understand where you are coming from on diyaudio forum. I belong to a Hi end audio group and we tend to stay away from tradition that some of the designers are like gods. We like to get into research and look for better ways to improve products and reliabilty of them.

This is what this forum needs to be based on. We need to look for ways to improve efficency of our products here and continue to look for ways to stay EPA complient.
I believe we are on the right track. Some people might not agree but we must stay up on new technology and learn as much as we can otherwise we will fall along the wayside as some other fourms have done.

Henry

[Crofter]

It would be interesting to hear the nature of what is identified as being a problem with the current setup. I have some experience on another forum where there has been a problem of interference from input that is often totally, totally off base or absolutely entry level and a lot of good posters have gotten tired of it and left.

Also what if anything is there to be lost by the proposed changes?

[admin]

unlike the diyaudio forum, we are at odds with the epa and must whether we like it or not play within the rules and regulations
as laid out by that controlling authority.

we have a choice, we stick with a finite suppy of old existing engine's, which will run out and limit new folks from getting involved
or we step up and lead by example.

there are other forums around that cater to the existing stuff, the antique engine forums, the old lister forum are but a few.

what sets us apart is being forward thinking and proactive, when this forum was first launched some 7 plus months ago there
was a lot of talk of thing like "oh its so big and cumbersome" "its so overwhelming" blah blah blah

when the reality is it is loosely based on the structure similar to a table of contents of a typical technical book.

we certainly would have easily setup a second forum to cater to research and development and then few folks from the diy group would
have benefited or we would have lost membership to the new forum, either way has its problems.

the compromise was to do what is proposed, yes there will be two different groups and yes there may well be some words back and forth, but every forum has that anyway from time to time.

also if you don't like how you are treated you have the option of paying the fee and moving over to participate fully in the research and development group, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing so provided they don't make an ass of themselves or start going off topic.

one of the most significant reasons for making this change will become apparent very soon, and i think there will be universal acceptance and a collective comment that will be something like "wow, why didn't we think of this sooner?"

admin

ps. there is nothing to be lost with this change that i can see, we as a group have nothing to lose and much to gain.

[Chris]

I tend to agree on both sides, on the fence. I read just about ever post, but tend to glance over the more technical stuff, electronic controllers etc. This is out of my field of knowedge. I like simpler stuff I can fix or replace if need be, without breaking the bank or waiting weeks for a replacemnt electronic gizmo. I rely on my generators ever day. It is not a hobby. When something goes wrong, I need to get it going now with simple stuff.
That said, some of you guys out there are incredible with what you do, or are trying to do. I want a Mobile Bob 24 volt a battery charger with two alternators. I would never know about that without this forum. Collecting stuff for one right now. Thanks to all which ever way it goes.

Chris

[mobile_bob]

we can look at the change as some new playground equipment being installed in our park
and along with new equipment we are attracting some new kids from down the block

now we just got to learn how to play together 

bob g

[Henry W]

Hi Chris,

I see their might be a misunderstanding how the changes will take place.

Here is part that was posted by the Administrator:

there will be a new section to our forum, this catagory for those not interested can certainly be "minimized" so that the forum will remain looking the same. the overall function of the forum will remain the same for everyone and will remain free to all who want to use it.

the new catagory will be accessible to all, however to participate in that group one will have to join that group, it will also be a "fee" based group. (more on the fee later) The activity and posting done in that group will be accessible as read only to any forum member that is not a member of the research group. If a member wishes to ask a question of that group there will be a single board to address questions to that group.  This is an effort to keep the topics on topic and limit sidebar discussions, tangeants etc.

there are many benefits to both groups for this type of structure, both groups learn from each other, the forum remains free for those that are not interested in joining the group, the section that is fee based will not be as cluttered and will stay on topic, the fee's will provide funding to keep the forum alive (which benefits those that wish not to participate at that level directly), the fee's will also be used to produce a certificate of membership and a card for your wallet, there are also several other benefits that relate to regulations that i cannot go into yet.

I hope this clears things up.

Henry

[Lloyd]

having toiled over this for some time, it looks like this is what is coming down the pipe for our forum

there are two very distinct sub groups in our membership, those that are more focused on power generation
for standby or emergency use, and those that are more focused on combined heat and power.

of the two groups the combined heat and power side generally are more into testing, research and development
and extracting maximum efficiency from the unit, whereas those that are more into backup power are more results
oriented and efficiency, testing and R&D are of lower priority.

What's the name of this forum?...."microcogen.info

thats ok, we should promote both sides, because we can learn from each other./

I agree, there are many here that share knowledge, irrespective of weather the q is in regards to one or the other. That's the way it should be...it creates depth.

a while back i was approached to start up a serious Research and Development group or forum, there are those that are apparently
very serious about micro cogeneration and its development but are not keen on getting involved with other aspects or getting mired down
in political discussion etc.  so the question was how best to accomplish this goal of putting together such a group?

There is a completely separate chapter of this forum for political banter....but sometimes the topic is intrinsically linked to political issues...as long as the the topic doesn't completely stray form the nuts and bolts..I think its fine...it can easily be asked to stop..or get a moderator involved...but what I have found on this forum is tame as compare to the wildwild internet. I haven't seen one topic where someone tokk something so personal as to start a flame war...that is unheard of.

there were two choices that came immediately to mind,

one, was to set up a totally seperate forum, that would be very easy to do, but
it would have segmented our group and likely led to hard feelings somewhere and the decline in what we have working here.
so even though it would have been the easiest choice it was not a good one.

two, was to set aside an area within our forum for the combined heat research and development group. the question then becomes
how best to manage the two groups in an effective way so that they might co-exist and be a resource for each other.

I fail to see what the difference would be, in just adding another chapter to the forum

it is my firm belief that the DIY group can learn much from EE, ME, Chemical E, Thermal E, Physicists, etc, and i am also convinced
that the professional group can learn a lot from the DIY group that has learned through empirical evidence (school of hard knocks).

so here is how it is going to work

Trying to fix something that doesn't appear to be broke...sure seems like a waste of energy and not very effecient.

there will be a new section to our forum, this catagory for those not interested can certainly be "minimized" so that the forum will remain looking the same. the overall function of the forum will remain the same for everyone and will remain free to all who want to use it.

the new catagory will be accessible to all, however to participate in that group one will have to join that group, it will also be a "fee" based group. (more on the fee later) The activity and posting done in that group will be accessible as read only to any forum member that is not a member of the research group. If a member wishes to ask a question of that group there will be a single board to address questions to that group.  This is an effort to keep the topics on topic and limit sidebar discussions, tangeants etc.

This is a ridiculous concept. 1st a well moderated forum is easily kept on track. I'm all for the idea of having a research concept in/on the forum...trying to create a separation zone by putting up a fence, that is easily climbed by paying a fee to join, will not solve the problem poster.

It also then fosters two classes of citizens...which I don't think will be productive. I'm all for paying to keep this forum alive...just tell me where to donate. As a matter of fact I think many would be willing to be financially contributing members...much like public television and radio...Each contributing member, gets an acknowledgment next to his handle...it can be funded as a co-op, where the cost are estimated for the year/s and the split between the members.

there are many benefits to both groups for this type of structure, both groups learn from each other, the forum remains free for those that are not interested in joining the group, the section that is fee based will not be as cluttered and will stay on topic, the fee's will provide funding to keep the forum alive (which benefits those that wish not to participate at that level directly), the fee's will also be used to produce a certificate of membership and a card for your wallet, there are also several other benefits that relate to regulations that i cannot go into yet.

This is an anecdotal justification.

the fee rate will be something nominal, and not what most would consider a burden, it will be an annual membership sort of thing.

Hell I'll contribute $100.00 right now...just tell me where to send it to...I have received more than that in value so far to date, and I'm a firm believer in in paying my way.

there will likely also be a means for those who have financial hardships to join the group, my thinking is it will be based on being voted in
based on the quality of the members questions to that group, and other things like background experience.

I see no need if we have a contributing member donation, I'll the forum will recieve more than it's needs are just from voluntary members.

while i expect there will be many questions, i would ask the membership to take a few moments to think about the prospects, and what there is to gain vs what extra effort it might take to accomplish.

i am not aware of another forum structured in this manner, but then again there is no other forum (that i am aware of) that has the need for this sort of structure (again i can't get into the details of "why" just yet, i need you guys to trust me on this one).  without having a forum structure model to emmulate we are left to develop a model of our own.

at this point i would ask only for a little patience from the membership, any and all support is appreciated, and we shall see if this is something that works out to be as good as we think it should be.

Rolling something out and not giving all the details seems  like the wrong approach...if you got some good news, that comes with the changes either spill it all at one time...or hold you water until you can. Especially if there is no apparent sign of dysfunction with in this forum.

thanks to all that contribute to the success of the forum, you are all much appreciated.

admin

Thank you admin and the other powers that conceived this forum, and took the initiative to get it up and running...Now let the member grow this forum like they have been, fix anything that is apparently broken...but but don't be a GWB and start a proactive war.

One thing I have found, is a leadership that poles it's members, for action and ways to improve an organization is well ahead of an org that has an Idealist at the helm... that fails to involve them in choosing a direction.

Lloyd


[/quote]

[Henry W]

Thanks for posting your comment Jens.

Guys lets not get to worked up over some changes coming up. I think the administrator and others are working hard to tie the new group and this forum together.  I remember members getting worked up for nothing on having all the categorys here on this forum when it was first launched back in Septmber of last year. Well it seems like everyone adjusted just fine. Yes their will be some members griping and complaining but I see the changes being healthy for this fourm.

Henry

[bschwartz]

As long as I can still have access to all of you great people, I'll continue to enjoy this forum.  I'd like to think I may have added a little here and there, and know that I have learned a whole bunch more.  If admin wants (or feels the need) to change the forum, all I ask is that it doesn't disband.  Just let me know where to send my money, and I'll adapt.

[Lloyd]

cri·tique    (krĭ-tēk')  
n.  

  1.

     A critical review or commentary, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.
  2.

     A critical discussion of a specified topic.
  3.

     The art of criticism.

tr.v.   cri·tiqued, cri·tiqu·ing, cri·tiques Usage Problem
To review or discuss critically.

[French, from Greek kritikē (tekhnē), (art) of criticism, feminine of kritikos, critical; see critic.]

   Usage Note: Critique has been used as a verb meaning "to review or discuss critically" since the 18th century, but lately this usage has gained much wider currency, in part because the verb criticize, once neutral between praise and censure, is now mainly used in a negative sense. But this use of critique is still regarded by many as pretentious jargon, although resistance appears to be weakening. In our 1997 ballot, 41 percent of the Usage Panel rejected the sentence As mock inquisitors grill him, top aides take notes and critique the answers with the President afterward. Ten years earlier, 69 percent disapproved of this same sentence. Resistance is still high when a person is critiqued: 60 percent of the Usage Panel rejects its use in the sentence Students are taught how to do a business plan and then are critiqued on it. Thus, it may be preferable to avoid this word. There is no exact synonym, but in most contexts one can usually substitute go over, review, or analyze. · Note, however, that critique is widely accepted as a noun in a neutral context; 86 percent of the Panel approved of its use in the sentence The committee gave the report a thorough critique and found it both informed and intelligent.


crit·i·cism
   /ˈkrɪtəˌsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[krit-uh-siz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything.
2.
the act of passing severe judgment; censure; faultfinding.


com·plain
   /kəmˈpleɪn/ Show Spelled[kuhm-pleyn] Show IPA
–verb (used without object)
1.
to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault: He complained constantly about the noise in the corridor.
2.
to tell of one's pains, ailments, etc.: to complain of a backache.
3.
to make a formal accusation: If you think you've been swindled, complain to the police.



con·cern
   /kənˈsɜrn/ Show Spelled[kuhn-surn] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1.
to relate to; be connected with; be of interest or importance to; affect: The water shortage concerns us all.
2.
to interest or engage (used reflexively or in the passive, often fol. by with or in): She concerns herself with every aspect of the business.
3.
to trouble, worry, or disquiet: I am concerned about his health.
–noun
4.
something that relates or pertains to a person; business; affair: Law is the concern of lawyers.
5.
a matter that engages a person's attention, interest, or care, or that affects a person's welfare or happiness: The party was no concern of his.
6.
worry, solicitude, or anxiety: to show concern for someone in trouble.
7.
important relation or bearing: This news is of concern to all of us.

—Synonyms
1. touch, involve. 3. disturb. 5. burden, responsibility. Concern, care, worry connote an uneasy and burdened state of mind. Concern implies an anxious sense of interest in something: concern over a friend's misfortune. Care suggests a heaviness of spirit caused by dread, or by the constant pressure of burdensome demands: Poverty weighs a person down with care. Worry is an active state of agitated uneasiness and restless apprehension: He was distracted by worry over the stock market. 8. firm, house.

—Antonyms
6. indifference.

[admin]

guys:

there is really nothing to get knotted up about!

there is no need for money to keep the forum up and running, the fee will be only to cover the
basic expenses relating to the added load that the new research group will bring to the forum.

and that fee will be very low!

the core of this forum is not going to change!

there is simply going to be an extension or addition to the forum, a research group and that is all!

those that are concerned might go back and read or reread the "vision statement" and be especially careful to read
between the lines.

the change will be a positive one for this group or the change will be removed, pure and simple
i could just as easily simply started a completely new and seperate forum to address the need, but thought
that incorporating it here would be in the best interest of all who frequent and contribute to this forum.

would it have been better to find out later that there is another forum that is fee based and closed from view to our members?
would this not made folks feel like a different class of citizen?

the way this is going to work is it will be open for all to read and there will be access to post questions to that group, "and" should
one want to get involved with the research group rather than simply continue as usual with the diy group he can join the research group, pay the fee and jump right in!

how is that tantamount to being a second class citizen?  everyone has the ability to join if they like or simply continue on as usual and read all they desire and learn from the other side.

it would have been much more disruptive in my opinion to have waited and dropped the changes on the membership all at once, i felt
it was in the interest of all to pass along what information that i can as it is available. also it is important to note that the changes have to be put in place in stages which would have been more confusing.

this place is not going away, quite the contrary, we are here to stay and we are going to be very proactive in our drive to make this the best forum of its type on the planet.

in summary

the forum is here to stay
the forum will continue to function as it has
there will be no changes to the forum that affect the membership in a negative way

there will be another catagory, with a series of boards attached to it, that will be "our" research and development wing
there will be new members coming along, some of which hopefull will be EE, ME, Thermal engineers, Chemical engineers, Professors
and perhaps a few other professionals from other disciplines
and ....

there will be some other benefits that will be useful to all of us, aside from what we might learn from each other.

its really that simple guys, so don't get worried that we will mess up what we have.
we have too many good moderators and other interested parties to allow anything bad to happen to our forum.

admin

[Henry W]

Loyd,

I took my last post off. I think you got offended by it. My appologies. But you need to look back and see how worked up you got on over the topic Re: New Group and Changes. Changes are a way of life. This fourm would of never came in manifestation if the people that started this fourm never did anything. They could of accepted the way things were 8 months ago and left things alone.

I think it comes down saying to you and some others will just have to accept the changes that will be taking place very soon. I think you will find out it will not be such a big deal once the changes are in effect.

As the Admin just wrote: The core of this forum is not going to change!
There is simply going to be an extension or addition to the forum, a research group and that is all!

I think overall quite a few of us, including you Loyd, have contributed very good topics and posts here. And in turn we learned much from them. This will not be changed at all. The changes that will be taking place should bring in more new members and hopfully some will be engineers, professors, research groops and others. This should enhance the potental of the forum and we should have more usefull info for us to learn from.

Henry

[Lloyd]

Hi Henry,

I am not easily offended...I am not offended by what someone wants to do with something they control...

I am just but a peon here.  That being said I value this forum, and want to contribute bc I feel this forum has been a big help to me...Some may think I am a trouble maker...but I like to think that I am an instigator, of thought, that leads to discussion, that leads to solutions.

In my life things that cause great consternation usually lead to a thought process, by all involved that pushes a concept higher. I've never really been a mundane thinker...and that usually offends many.

My mo is that when I am out of touch, or on a train going somewhere I don't want to go...is to just step off, at the next stop. I never to begrudge, bc I don't look back...

So no one needs worry about offending me...I know when to get off..and I'll be gone when that time comes...no complaints.

Lloyd

besides Henry...you're one of the guys I respect most here...so it would take quite a lot for you to offend me.