Ok I know that i can spin an induction motor a little faster then its nameplate and it will backfeed the grid. My real questions are Where can one find a good deal on an induction motor and what HP would you need to look for to dump say 3kw back. Also is there anything special one needs? I am under the impression you just spin the thing up and when it is at speed throw the switch and then put the power to it? I talked to my local Power Co and he was ok with it as part of my grid tie system as long as I could exhibit that it will stop flowing power when the grid is disconnected.
I understand that I will not save money and this isn't the goal. just an experiment with an odd purpose
Yeah I have another option that seems easier but a little more pricey. I have a 24 volt battery based Grid tied system with the outback GVFX3524 so I am thinking maybe it is eaiser to just buy a cheap 24 volt inverter/charger and feed it with the lister?
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 17, 2010, 12:27:41 PMAlso is there anything special one needs? I am under the impression you just spin the thing up and when it is at speed throw the switch and then put the power to it?
Boom You use the grid to get it up to speed as a motor, then engage the clutch from the driver engine, and as you overspeed, it changes from motor to generator. If you just "throw the switch" and are
"not in phase", I think that will be pretty bad.
Most units drop power as the grid goes down, but some have enough core magnetism or self-capacitance, to keep putting out power. Likely wont last long as you try to power a de-energized grid, but hey,
I'm not the lineman making repairs
here is yet another pitch for Bill Rogers book, he offers the correct method of using a single phase motor
as an induction generator and have it work properly with high efficiency
there is a bit of switchgear as the windings have to be switched after startup from motor to generator operation
to get full output and high efficiency
Bill covers this topic very well in his book, and if you are seriously considering such a project, buying the book
would be very helpful in my opinion in getting it right.
for the OP:
if you buy Bills book and don't think it is worth what you paid for it, let me know and i will buy it from you.
(i already have a copy, however that is how useful i believe you will find the book.)
we need more books like Bills, and the only way to get them is to either write them, or buy them from those who do.
bob g
Bob where can one purchase this book? I will gladly buy it tonight I love to read and learn this stuff.
Bills book can be purchased at
utterpower.com
bob g
http://utterpower.com/bill_rogers.htm (http://utterpower.com/bill_rogers.htm)
What Bob said. Very worthwhile book authored by a fair dinkum frood who really knows where his towel is.
Quinn
I'll third it. Yes! Go buy the book. It could save your tail.
"authored by a fair dinkum frood who really knows where his towel is."
I beg your pardon????
Ron
Ron,
You really need to read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. And Heinlein (The Moon is a Harsh Mistress). The former is a must read for anyone who wonders why the world is the way it is. Bill has, and knows the reference is a compliment of the highest order.
Pithy quote: "You're so un-hip, it's a wonder your bum don't fall off." ;)
Quinn
Ahh! That's just what I needed, a jolt to the old gray matter! Due to old age, I missed the reference. I do happen to have a copy of "The Hitchhiker's Guide" boxed up somewhere...... Been years since I've seen it though, hope the Wife hasn't donated it to charity. Missed that particular Heinlein, will have to look it up. ::)
Sorry all, I'll slink away quietly now......
Ron
Newbie here, first post....
I have sent 2 separate emails, in the last 10 days or so; to the address listed on utterpower webpage for ordering the book/CD combo, but I have not received a reply. Does anyone know if they are alive over there? Or is one of you folks possibly one of them folks ;D
I have a 20hp 3ph GE induction motor and one of those 2cyl Cat label Perkins sitting on the floor, that I might mate up for a grid down backup.
Thanks for having me. I can see I will learn a lot here.
Randall
welcome aboard,
George over at utterpower is in and out a lot, and he might have missed your email.
just keep after him, he will get back soon i am sure.
bob g
I ordered the book and lister cd I never did here from anybody but it showed up here 3 days later. The book is worth every penny and I just may venture down the Induction motor rd one day now that I fully understand the workings.
IMLE (In My Limited Experience) induction generators made by resonating an induction motor with capacitors have very poor regulation and it might be easy to overvoltage your load and let the smoke out. A poor substitute for a real alternator generator head. I'd consider it if I had a used car lot full of overhead incandescent lamps as the only load, or resistance heaters, that sort of thing. They are not well suited to drive inductive loads and make poor power for starting motors. If your load is near unity power factor and constant they could be a cheap way to make power. You won't have to worry about brushes wearing out.
Hmmmm The "breezy" wind generator from Prairie turbines has been around for eons and has been exhibited at alternative energy shows for years too. And as far as I know, there are people using the breezy in a net metering type situation. They even have a specific page on their website devoted to this application: http://www.prairieturbines.com/gridandbuild.htm (http://www.prairieturbines.com/gridandbuild.htm) Now I will admit that they use a microprocessor to control the thing and there certainly is no clutch, just like there is none in virtually any normal machine application.
I'm pretty sure that the utility company defines the hardware needed for the grid tie and it apparently works just fine. The output is single phase and while the efficiency may not match expensive commercial rigs, neither does the cost. Entry cost is $45 for the book and plans and $65 for the micro controller, which is not open source. They sell all the hardware, weldments, slip ring etc etc, depending on what you can afford or scrounge. It is a pretty big generator and with its wide blades it produces output at lower wind speeds. The same geometry means that a heavy tower is needed, since the blades produce a lot of drag at high windspeed, which is why they survive high wind events quite well, provided the guys stay attached...
Does anyone know where I can get Bill Rodgers book "Home Power Producers Guide to Electrical Reality". Utterpower.com says they are sold out.
Got mine from utterpower.
Only place I know of.
Took awhile to get it.
Surely they are having more printed.
Randall
Got mine from Utterpower too. Checked Amazon and E-pay, none are available! I guess you will have to hope for a reprint.
Ron
I googled ""Home Power Producers Guide to Electrical Reality" and on page one found a site that indicated a free full download. I got spooked and closed the site. It's your computer.
Casey
anyone uploading copyrighted material online without permission
from the author is committing a crime, and anyone that knowingly downloads
such material is complicit in that crime.
please fellas don't do this sort of thing, it is stealing from the author, which likely will result in the author not publishing more of their work.
its a rare technical book that turns out to make the author any real money to start with, so lets not make his efforts less fruitful by taking from him without his permission.
bob g
Amen bob g
To me the law is a nice to know thing but clipping a real person for a couple of bucks is just punk.
Casey
What's the going price? ::)
i just checked utterpower.com, and George has Bills book back in stock
i think it is around 26 bucks or so,
having reviewed the book back in '07, right after it came out, i still stand by
what i said in the review, it is probably the best book on home engine driven power
generation out there...
i avidly collect such books and haven't come across anything since then that is as good.
Bill does an excellent job with an induction generator, and how to do it right.
his explanation of power factor and power factor correction is related in a manner that most will be able to understand it and do what is needed to improve their system.
those that don't fully understand power factor and why it is important will at least come away with why they should be concerned with this area of power production particularly if they are offgrid.
as for the price of the book, i know i have spent many times more on gas just driving to used book stores looking for books on the subject each year, let alone the cost of books that i may have found that had bits and pieces of the puzzle that Bill seems to have tied together in one resource quite nicely.
we need more books like this written by more folks like Bill and other diy'ers that can help educate us all on the various aspects of offgrid power production, cogen, and all the various other stuff that seems to dovetail nicely with what we are trying to do.
anyone wanting a copy of Bills book go to www.utterpower.com and click on books
you will then be directed to how to order it.
bob g
Hi All
Well after years if re-reminding me by Mobile Bob I did contact GeorgeB. and get one if the few re-stocked Bill Rogers "Home Power Producer's Guide To Electrical Reality" book.
Amazingly good. NOW I finally have an understandable useable explaination to this Power Factor thing.
Plus a reasonable working thoery for the ST head excitation Z winding. Plus, plus, plus . . . .
And even a picture of one of the very few wooden skid Listeriod could be a NO welded system mounting I've seen other than the one I made up. [ Edit: I was wrong on the wood - deep web internal metal channel rails painted a brownish/gray.]
BillR's writing style is great, makes you sit right on his shoulder, listening, seeing and smelling the adventure as he experiences them.
So you fellows been holding back waiting for a copy to show up on Amazon . . . . don't be holding your breaths. This is obviously a limited run of a self-published book.
Anyone with one of these books going to be hanging on it "until pried from my cold dead hand(s)".
Thanks GeorgeB for sponsoring and offering this.
Thanks BobG. for the kick in the butt reminder to gitter'done.
Thanks BruceM for this book recommendation.
Steve Unruh
thanks for the heads up Steve
one of the reasons for the recent poll is i am trying to prod Bill into writing a 2nd volume.
we need more from him and others on a variety of subjects in my opinion.
in any event Bill's book is a welcome addition to the diy'ers personal library.
bob g
I'm another one who just bought the book after seeing they were available again.
thanks again for the pointer to it
OK! Now that we know how we're ready for the next phase. Getting permission from the utility moguls to let our wire touch their wire.
I ask again. Anyone know of someone doing this all above board?
Casey
Hey Casey
Man you know this is a "Don't ask. Don't tell" area.
Nope don't know of a single case west side PNW "locally" of any private individual made it past the $$,$$$ permitting, certified engineered, multiple inspection hurdles the Public Power and Private Power companies throw up here and legally doing this. Federal law or not. They do not want our power input, and our potential problems in their mix. I have seen fellows spending 100's of thousands of dollars now with personal solar and wind trying. Power company/large user/Fed hog trough 'Demo" systems yes. In point of fact this "law", meter reader labor costs, druggie grow and cooker lab operations has caused them to go big time into the telemetric, no spinning back electronic meter heads. We were switched out last year.
My Belgium brother-in-law says grid-tie WAS promoted and available for subsidized solar Only (he has it) but new signups no longer being allowed due to seasonal oversupply problems. Surprised me they are grid 80% big Nuke Plants there. Not something like NG turbines you can more readily spool-up and cut in and out.
So M.Bob be real interesting to see if in the last 7 years Bill Rogers been testing induction motor generating for stand-a-lone systems and willing to publish about it. I do know of two different woodgassers YouTube claiming to be doing off-grid induction motor generating now. They are not engineers so . . . how safe? how sound? what are the problems? what are the work-a-round solutions to make it controllable, effective and safe?
Regards
Wetside Washington State Steve Unruh